Review - Thermal Master THOR-002 Thermal Camera - Better than FLIR ? by Fraser

[papo]

Thanks for doing all the hard work!

Amazing! Thank you

Matt

[kripton2035]

just bought a thor001 so I'll have a macro lens and won't print your nice adapter, but this is interesting to test other lens ?
@Fraser what other lens could be useful for this thermal camera ? a wide angle one ?

[alexwhittemore]

I looked into this further. A wide angle lens definitely requires at least two elements separated by a distance. I haven’t looked, but logically I’m not sure where you’d find a diverging ZnSe lens for cheap, as I don’t believe there’s a use case for those in high-power laser systems.

[Fraser]

Kripton2035,

When you get your THOR-001, do check the measurement offset applied when the Macro mode is activated in the menu. In my sample it was way off and this has been fed back to Thermal Master for correction in firmware. They basically used the correction for a supplemental lens with ~80% transmission when the supplied lens has a transmission in the high 90’s%.

With regard to supplemental lenses, some users desire a wider or narrower FOV but the easiest way to achieve this is to buy a commercial x0.45 or x2 supplemental lens from FLIR or Fluke. They sometimes come up on eBay at reasonable prices. Be aware that by using the x0.45 lens you are almost doubling the IFOV of the camera and with only 256x192 physical pixels you may be losing a lot of detail in your image unless you can get closer to the target. The supplemental lens adapters detailed in this thread may be modified to accommodate a commercial supplemental lens but do be careful as the additional weight could lead to the mount detaching from the camera, which could end very badly for the supplemental lens.

Fraser

[Fraser]

Kripton2035,

Do you have a means to test the measurement accuracy of your THOR-001 ? If so, I would be interested to hear how your THOR-001 performs. It would need to be a test against a target of known temperature and Emissivity with the distance to target set to 0.5m.

Fraser

[kripton2035]

what kind of measurements are you thinking of ? I don't have much precise thermometer or such.
I mainly bought this model to do pcb inspections, or pcb fault finding using thermal camera.

[Fraser]

In that case, no worries. Just enjoy your new camera 

Fraser

[kripton2035]

I bought a used flir thermacam b2 some 15 years ago, and it served me well
I think this thor001 will be a good improvement !

[kripton2035]

@Fraser what is your thor firmware version ? mine is 1.2.2 I wonder where can I get the latest ? thanks;

[Fraser]

Kripton2035,

As far as I am aware, Firmware Version 1.2.2 is that last firmware released for the THOR series. I am expecting another firmware release to correct the Macro mode offset issue and possibly another issue, but Thermal Master have yet to provide me with a release date. I have recently chased them on this. Normally when a new THOR firmware is ready for release it is sent to me first testing and feedback.

Fraser

[ronajon]

Kripton2035,

As far as I am aware, Firmware Version 1.2.2 is that last firmware released for the THOR series. I am expecting another firmware release to correct the Macro mode offset issue and possibly another issue, but Thermal Master have yet to provide me with a release date. I have recently chased them on this. Normally when a new THOR firmware is ready for release it is sent to me first testing and feedback.

Fraser

are the previous firmwares available somewhere ? (i'm interested in the 1.20 due to the manual level and span )

[alexwhittemore]

I looked into this further. A wide angle lens definitely requires at least two elements separated by a distance. I haven’t looked, but logically I’m not sure where you’d find a diverging ZnSe lens for cheap, as I don’t believe there’s a use case for those in high-power laser systems.

I looked into it a little more: I believe if you put a lens of focal length -1" (diverging, eg. plano-concave) 1" in front of the same 2" focal length lens we've been using for macro, you should get a .5x magnification (wider FOV) focused at infinity.

However, the lens I found to do it is $350, or more like $380 with the preferred AR coating, so not exactly a bargain. At that rate, you'd be better off getting a second camera with wider FOV. https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=13047

[kripton2035]

@Fraser: not having precise thermometers, I still noticed that the displayed temperature are way off some 10°C above the real temperature !
it was good when I first tried the camera, but now they are off all the time.
I did a factory reset but no luck
I understand you also had some problems with the temperature ? did you find a workaround ? thanks.

[Fraser]

I have yet to get to the bottom of this behaviour. I have raised it with Thermal Master during my review of the camera as my THOR-002 was 3 Degrees Celsius off on all measurements. I was assured that it was due to my sample camera being pre-release early version and Thermal Master provided images of a production release camera measuring correctly. I am also having the same issue with the THOR-001 and have been in discussions with Thermal Master. They said both my THOR-001 and 002 were early versions with an issue in the measurement system. I was promised two replacement units to test but they have yet to be provided. I have already advised Thermal Master that if this level of error exists in the release units, it would be out of specification and unacceptable.

Another forum member reported that his THOR-002 measurements were not as accurate as they should be. I advised him to get the unit replaced by Thermal Master. The replacement is also exhibiting measurement issues I have advised Thermal Master of this.

I recommend that you report the issue with your camera to Thermal Master and I will let my contact know that your production release camera has a measurement accuracy issue. Can you send me the serial number by private message please.

I regret that I am “in the dark” on this matter and what causes it. My recent ill health has prevented me digging deeper into the THOR series. I have declined to release a review of the THOR-091 until I have heard from Thermal Master that production models do not have a measurement accuracy issue and tested a new cameras myself.

Fraser

[Fraser]

I have written to my contact within Thermal Master and highlighted this ongoing issue with some users reporting measurement errors with their THOR cameras. Whilst this could be individual faulty cameras or batches I have re-stated my concern over the current situation. Hopefully Thermal Master management will apply appropriate pressure on the design and production managers to determine exactly what is going on. I have not seen much “chatter” on the internet about THOR camera accuracy so we could be seeing isolated cases but we shall have to wait and see. If the error I discovered in the macro lens attachment compensation has not been fixed in your new camera, that could be a sign of denial/inaction on the part of the design team for reasons unknown, and that is a relatively simple fix.

I would dive into my sample cameras and do my own investigation on this matter, but my present health situation precludes such a task, for the moment at least. I continue to offer Thermal Master my independent unpaid technical consultation on this matter so we shall see if they take me up on that offer.

Fraser

[Fraser]

Ronajon,

Sadly firmware version 1.21 that provides manual level and span was withdrawn from public release by Thermal Master.
Manual level and span is only available on the THOR-001 model. I was given firmware 1.21 for testing but I am no longer allowed to share it. Sorry. To the best of my knowledge firmware 1.21 was only ever shared with me so it is not “in the wild”.

Fraser

[Fraser]

Kripton2035,

I just had a thought, are you finding the measurement error whilst using the Macro lens and Macro lens mode set in the menu, or whilst using the camera without the Macro lens and Macro mode switched off ? I only ask because I know the Macro lens mode created an incorrect positive offset on measurements on my THOR-001 as previously stated. A +10C measurement error on the bare camera without the Macro lens mode activated would be the worst error I have heard of to date.

Fraser

[kripton2035]

I did not use manual level and span as it deactivates the super resolution. but I can try.
sadly I have to say that the +10°C is without macro lens or macro mode.I will try with the lens to see any difference.
I remember the temperatures were of plausible values when I first tried the camera
but a few days after the measures are +10° off and I can't reset them to acceptable values.

[Fraser]

 Hi Kripton2035,

Manual level and span is not going to help in this instance. This sound like a measurement system hardware fault. Hence why the factory reset did not help. You need to report this unit as faulty and either exchange it or request a refund. There is nothing that I can suggest that will fix this issue

Best Wishes

Fraser

[Fraser]

Some good news…….

After highlighting the measurement issue with some THOR cameras, Thermal Master is loaning me a new THOR-001 and THOR-002 to thoroughly investigate for measurement and any other issues. This will help them in any discussions with the THOR technical design team if I find a problem. I will be rolling out the “Big Guns” in the form of my two professional MIKRON Black Body calibration sources. If the THOR cameras have a weakness in their measurement system, I will find it. I am still very unwell but I will make the effort to complete this testing quickly so that I can feed back my findings to a Thermal Master.

I also have Thermal Master P1 to test but the THOR cameras will take priority.

Fraser

[Fraser]

We are seeing some reports on this forum of THOR cameras that are suffering measurement accuracy errors. It is not yet clear whether there are a lot of such cameras in the marketplace as my sample size is limited to only this forum.

I can state that I have been in discussions with Thermal Master about this potential issue with the THOR camera and I have offered to not only test the measurement accuracy of two randomly selected THOR cameras loaned to me, but also assist in the diagnosis of any issue that exists. I am offering all this at no cost to Thermal Master so we shall have to see whether they want me involved beyond the measurement accuracy testing. I consider my offer a bit of a bargain, but we may be dealing with a 3rd party design and schematics that can make the situation more complex.

I have already suggested to Thermal Master where the measurement error could be being caused, so that their tech team can investigate further. I am not aware of the technical test and diagnostic capabilities of Thermal Master as a company, hence my offer to help. If, as they stated previously, they are not directly connected with Infiray, they may be reliant on an external technical teams assurances about a product performance. Within obvious limits, I will try to keep this forum advised of progress but as I hope readers will understand I have to treat some details as corporate confidential even though I have not signed an NDA.

To be clear, we do not currently have firm evidence of a design or production issue in the THOR series but I am doing my best to help Thermal Master determine what is going on so that they can take any necessary action.

As for customer support issues that I have been reading about on this forum…. I have advised my contact at Thermal Master of this deficiency and that is all that I can do.

Fraser

[alexwhittemore]

I’m actually just starting to use my 002 for a few tasks around the house and I’m noticing pretty substantial accuracy problems as well. For instance, pointing it at a plastic digital thermometer in the kitchen that reads 70.7F, the Thor reads precisely 10F high at 80.7F. On the other hand, looking at boiling water, it reads quite accurately 212f give or take 1f or so. That test is a bit hard because I have a kettle that shuts off when it hits a boil, or a gas stove that leaks heat like a chimney around the sides of my pan which seems it can bump up the reading a bit. Also, a caveat there - when I first did that test, I hadn’t messed with the environmental settings because emissivity was at .95 and that seemed fine. But after checking, ambient was down at 20f. When I corrected that to 70, the boiling water test started under-reading closer to the p3 below. I don’t love the boiling water test though since a substantial chunk of the atmosphere between the camera and the water is recently-vaporized steam.

I tried similar tests with my P3 and I found the opposite: with accurate emissivity/distance/ambient settings on that device, after some warmup period it’s within 1f of the thermometer. But it reads about 10f low on the boiling water!

I don’t have a reference setup but I do have a custom black body target with calibrated emissivity - I’ll have to break that out and do some more controlled and stable testing later.

[Maksvell Mejia]

Hi Fraser, just want to let you konw, I already received the Thor002 with your recommend， I'm happy with it till now, and will updates if I get any questions, THANK YOU so much and hope you will recover soon 

[Brew]

I found this thread/site checking to see about new firmware for my Thor 002, and just wanted to thank Fraser for his time and effort checking out these cameras and to wish them well with their sickness, hopefully all is well now. 

Brew