Author Topic: Seek announce OEM cores  (Read 3221 times)

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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Seek announce OEM cores
« on: December 10, 2019, 04:45:25 pm »
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Online Fraser

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2019, 05:34:40 pm »
Interesting. I am pleased to see this development :-+

Seek have previously supplied their cores to third parties but this looks like a concerted effort to gain take-up by more third party companies. These cores will live or die by the image quality that they can produce. The Radiometric accuracy is a bit ‘how you doin’ but may be adequate for many applications.

USB connectivity to the cores caught my eye. An affordable thermal webcam at last ?

Fraser
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 05:58:11 pm by Fraser »
 

Offline Vipitis

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2019, 05:48:11 pm »
previous discussion:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/oem-seek-cores-on-the-horizon/msg2299494/#msg2299494

their QVGA core is tiny. It's 12micron pixels but as a full core this outdoes the Boson. And other cores show here(might update the seek measurements): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/rhetorical-question-will-there-be-a-qvga-or-vga-lepton/msg2713546/#msg2713546


Sadly we know their shortcomings in image quality. We have seen the Lepton be embedded in a few mobile devices: phones, tablets and goggles. Let's see where Seeks core might end up. There isn't any newer Lepton in sight.

 

Offline IwuzBornanerd

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2019, 11:28:59 pm »
 I noticed recently that DigiKey carries the Seek cores as well as the Compact & Shot units (at non-cheap prices).  Looking just now I see the old cores are gone & they list one of the new ones with 6 week lead time, and a "starter kit" at 1 week lead time.

A few things jump out at me in the spec's.  One is that they have finally opened the aperture to F/1.0 (F/1.26 for the 6.6mm lens) so that should bring the noise down, so they might actually get to their 100mK max sensitivity.  Another is the fact that the "micro core" is "shutterless", and I see that the "starter kit" for that one includes a bunch of calibration data.  The third thing is the "smart pixels": "Each pixel automatically adjusts gain states to maximize resolution contrast when viewing hot and cold objects in the same scene".  This sounds like it will be more trouble than the constant fiddling with pixel bias.  :scared:

I, of course, don't appreciate the permanently dis-focused lens configuration.

When I looked at this back in the spring of this year I got the impression that Seek was going to provide the software & would customize it for the OEM if desired but now they talk about an actual SDK, which is great.  I wonder if it would work with the "Compact" models.  Something makes me think the SDK is like the Thermal Expert SDK.

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Offline Ultrapurple

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2019, 09:33:52 am »
Interesting news - and yes, it will be fascinating to see the IQ they manage to produce. But with Digikey quoting US$384 for the 200x150 sensor with 35° lens I'm not expecting there to be a rush of new consumer products for a little while.

On the other hand, a $38 thermal imaging core, even at 200x150 resolution, might set the thermal imaging world alight. Then we'd perhaps start seeing thermal webcams - but would (could?) they be any cheaper than the higher performance Thermal Expert (etc) dongles? Only when we get cores at $3.50 in OEM quantities do I foresee a huge rush into our world by the wider public.

(And even then we'd be battling ignorance: search on any of the image sites like Flickr for 'thermal' or 'X-Ray' and you'll get huge numbers of hits where people think a psychedelic palette, or negative B&W respectively, are somehow equivalent to the real technology...)
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Offline Ben321

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2019, 10:00:35 pm »
This supposedly has a Seek OEM core in the kit, but doesn't tell which core.
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/seek-thermal/S304S/2126-S304S-ND/10492240
To anyone here who nought this kit, I have a question for you. Can you tell me which core?
 

Online Fraser

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2019, 11:27:32 pm »
Ben321,

If you look at the end of the SEEK Thermal OEM core data sheets, they have a section on the kits and their part numbers :)

https://www.thermal.com/uploads/1/0/1/3/101388544/mosaic_core_specification_sheet.pdf

The Digikey part you referenced is a MOSAIC 320 x 240 pixel Core

More detail.... you get a QVGA Mosaic core fitted with a 4mm/F1 lens providing 56 Degrees HFOV at <9fps

There are two other Kits, the lower resolution Mosaic S204SP (detailed in the above referenced data sheet) and the Micro Core MS202SP (datasheet below)

https://www.thermal.com/uploads/1/0/1/3/101388544/micro_core_specification_sheet.pdf

The prices of those kits is pretty horrible  :scared:

Fraser
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 11:39:05 pm by Fraser »
 

Offline Ben321

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2019, 12:27:00 am »
Ben321,

If you look at the end of the SEEK Thermal OEM core data sheets, they have a section on the kits and their part numbers :)

https://www.thermal.com/uploads/1/0/1/3/101388544/mosaic_core_specification_sheet.pdf

The Digikey part you referenced is a MOSAIC 320 x 240 pixel Core

More detail.... you get a QVGA Mosaic core fitted with a 4mm/F1 lens providing 56 Degrees HFOV at <9fps

There are two other Kits, the lower resolution Mosaic S204SP (detailed in the above referenced data sheet) and the Micro Core MS202SP (datasheet below)

https://www.thermal.com/uploads/1/0/1/3/101388544/micro_core_specification_sheet.pdf

The prices of those kits is pretty horrible  :scared:

Fraser
So which kit has the 30hz 320z240 Mosaic core? According to the oem cores page on the seek website, a 30hz 320x240 imager is available. However I don't know if it is available as part of a kit, nor if Digikey has it (either standalone or as part of a kit).
 

Online Fraser

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2019, 01:10:00 am »
Try asking Seek Thermal ?

As the datasheets says.... "Please contact your sales rep for more information on Starter Kits."

It sounds like you need the S314SPX kit that is available only to approved customers who meet the requirements of the US Dual Use Technology regulations  ;)

Fraser

« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 01:21:03 am by Fraser »
 

Offline Ben321

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2019, 02:27:36 am »
Try asking Seek Thermal ?

As the datasheets says.... "Please contact your sales rep for more information on Starter Kits."

It sounds like you need the S314SPX kit that is available only to approved customers who meet the requirements of the US Dual Use Technology regulations  ;)

Fraser

Good thing then that I am a US citizen, and have lived in the US for my entire life. I won't need to sign any paperwork.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 07:56:31 am by Ben321 »
 

Online Fraser

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2019, 04:44:06 am »
 :palm:
 

Offline Ultrapurple

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2019, 01:26:26 pm »
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 10:12:19 am by Ultrapurple »
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Offline ArsenioDev

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2019, 06:45:11 pm »
Oh boy.... they're in for a rough surprise xD
 

Offline Spirit532

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2019, 06:43:44 am »
Looks like the Chinese test runs went well enough to start shipping to the custom imager market.
 

Online Hydron

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2019, 12:43:28 pm »
lol have fun
 

Offline ikrase

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2019, 09:11:12 am »
Quote
Oh boy.... they're in for a rough surprise xD

What's meant by that? You actually do have a bunch of credentialling and paperwork just to get your hands on those devkits?

This is still very interesting and I hope the dev kits -- and the QVGA fast-framerate cameras -- will eventually be readily available.
 

Offline Ben321

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2019, 08:02:19 am »
Quote
Oh boy.... they're in for a rough surprise xD

What's meant by that? You actually do have a bunch of credentialling and paperwork just to get your hands on those devkits?


Doubt it. Regarding ITAR controlled products, you only need paperwork if you aren't a US citizen (but are legally living in the US) or you are living outside the US (regardless of citizenship), or you intend to ship it outside of the US after purchasing it. If you live in the US and are a US citizen and intend to use it in the US, then no paperwork. In other words, you won't need to fill out any paperwork unless your shipping address is outside the US, or they have some other reason to believe that you fit into one of the categories that requires special paperwork. I got an ITAR protected thermal camera when I bought the Seek Compact Pro with a 15fps frame rate. All I needed to do was make the purchase. No special paperwork.
 

Offline Ultrapurple

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2019, 12:48:38 pm »
@Ben321 I think you may be over-optimistic. In much the same way that simply being a US citizen in good standing doesn't mean you can walk into the Oval Office or a nuclear power station anytime you like, I think you'll find that some (much) of the better thermal imaging stuff still requires more than just a chequebook.

(Of course, maybe I'm wrong - the Secret Service might positively encourage random strangers to visit the Oval Office, particularly if they've recently been to see a nuclear facility and are still highly radioactive. I'm not making a political point here, I'd say the same whoever was in power).
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Offline ArsenioDev

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2019, 04:26:06 pm »
@Ben321 I think you may be over-optimistic. In much the same way that simply being a US citizen in good standing doesn't mean you can walk into the Oval Office or a nuclear power station anytime you like, I think you'll find that some (much) of the better thermal imaging stuff still requires more than just a chequebook.

(Of course, maybe I'm wrong - the Secret Service might positively encourage random strangers to visit the Oval Office, particularly if they've recently been to see a nuclear facility and are still highly radioactive. I'm not making a political point here, I'd say the same whoever was in power).

Correct, a lot of places that sell the fun stuff require paperwork for export controlled stuff and to go fun places there is ALWAYS paperwork, I just happen to have credentials that make even getting to the paperwork easier.
 

Offline Ben321

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2019, 02:35:44 am »
@Ben321 I think you may be over-optimistic. In much the same way that simply being a US citizen in good standing doesn't mean you can walk into the Oval Office or a nuclear power station anytime you like, I think you'll find that some (much) of the better thermal imaging stuff still requires more than just a chequebook.

(Of course, maybe I'm wrong - the Secret Service might positively encourage random strangers to visit the Oval Office, particularly if they've recently been to see a nuclear facility and are still highly radioactive. I'm not making a political point here, I'd say the same whoever was in power).

There's basically 2 categories of thermal imager, those that can be sold both in the US and overseas without paperwork (except for a few banned countries, such as North Korea which is on a do-not-sell list for such items), and those in the more restricted category that require paperwork for overseas sales but no paperwork to sell to a US address. This hinges entirely on framerate. For <9fps there's no paperwork for overseas sales. For >=9fps there is paperwork for overseas sales. In all cases though, purchasing in the US does not require paperwork.

I know this for a fact, because I already bought such a thermal imager that would have required paperwork for overseas sales. Specifically, I bought a Seek Compact Pro, which has FastFrame (15fps). I know some overseas Pro units are available without FastFrame, but in the US they send you the FastFrame unit. I can verify this because mine says FastFrame in the app when it's plugged in.

The OEM modules with 30fps frame rate from Seek would fit in this same category. Buying one of these would be no harder than buying my Seek Compact Pro was. The only problem seems to be they don't want to sell to individuals, only companies. Even in the inquiry form, where you can ask them about the OEM modules, one of the REQUIRED fields is the name of your company. I have tried filling it in, with "none" as the name of the company. However, I have NEVER heard back from them. They have NEVER sent me an email reply, even to tell me "sorry, we don't sell these modules to individuals, only to companies". They instead have simply NEVER responded. In fact, after a month or so of filling in the contact form once, I did it again. Same result. Over a period of about a year, I think I filled in this contact form about 3 or 4 times, inquiring about their OEM camera cores. NOT ONCE did I EVER get a reply from them. I think this is QUITE RUDE! I would have HOPED this Seek company would have better manners than this! You know that whole customer relations thing is part of being a GOOD BUSINESS. But I guess the IDIOTS running this Seek company don't care about good customer relations, and thus they don't care about being a good business.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 02:37:32 am by Ben321 »
 

Offline Vipitis

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2019, 07:44:54 am »
I don't think it is as easy as making two buckets. High resolution, high accuracy, long range, weapon/vehicle mounted also matters in the regulations for thermal imagers. As well as who built the cores. seek is built by Raytheon, therefore US regulations apply.

Contact forms can run you into a wall, send an email directly instead and use a proper looking email to get a reply.
 

Offline Ben321

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2019, 04:33:11 pm »
I don't think it is as easy as making two buckets. High resolution, high accuracy, long range, weapon/vehicle mounted also matters in the regulations for thermal imagers. As well as who built the cores. seek is built by Raytheon, therefore US regulations apply.

Contact forms can run you into a wall, send an email directly instead and use a proper looking email to get a reply.

Framerate is the deciding factor for if it can be sold overseas without paperwork. Under no circumstance do you need to fill out paperwork to buy if you are in the US. The hardness of getting an OEM core such as the Seek Mosaic 30fps version would be no different than the hardness of getting an end-user device of similar size and capability (such as the Seek Compact Pro FastFrame), at least from a legal perspective. I was able to buy the Seek Compact Pro FastFrame without filling out any paperwork. I just made the purchase on their online store and they shipped it to me.

As for the contact form, a contact form basically sends an automated email, I think. Anyway, Seek doesn't publicly publish their email address, from what I've seen. You can only contact them regarding their OEM cores by filling out the contact form on their OEM cores webpage.
 

Offline Ben321

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2019, 10:08:17 pm »
What we REALLY need is for somebody from GroupGets to buy up a bunch of Seek OEM cores at a quantity discount (wholesale) price, and then sell them at a reasonable price on the GroupGets website. They did this already with the FLIR Lepton chips and associated Lepton USB interface boards (PureThermal boards). GroupGets is actually a COMPANY, so they will hopefully be able to get through to Seek by filling out their actual company information on the contact form when asking to buy the OEM cores.
 

Offline Vipitis

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2019, 11:04:30 pm »
you can start your own campaign at GroupGets. You even get a small commission if it's hits the quota. But they still have to handle the paperwork, so it likely doesn't end with the 30hz QVGA core.
 

Offline Bill W

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Re: Seek announce OEM cores
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2019, 10:08:07 pm »

Framerate is the deciding factor for if it can be sold overseas without paperwork. Under no circumstance do you need to fill out paperwork to buy if you are in the US. The hardness of getting an OEM core such as the Seek Mosaic 30fps version would be no different than the hardness of getting an end-user device of similar size and capability (such as the Seek Compact Pro FastFrame), at least from a legal perspective. I was able to buy the Seek Compact Pro FastFrame without filling out any paperwork. I just made the purchase on their online store and they shipped it to me.

As for the contact form, a contact form basically sends an automated email, I think. Anyway, Seek doesn't publicly publish their email address, from what I've seen. You can only contact them regarding their OEM cores by filling out the contact form on their OEM cores webpage.

Not quite correct.  Your 'category 2' are Dual Use and in the US are Dept of Commerce controlled (Wassenaar) items, but these are not ITAR.  Those are generally saleable internally (US to US, UK to UK etc) but cannot cross trade borders legally without paperwork (the EU is a single area).

There is a 3rd category for 'ITAR', military specific items in the US.  All other countries will have similar Military item lists which includes top end thermal cameras as well as tanks etc.  That needs paperwork even internally.

Putting 'none' on the form guarantees no reply, have you tried Ben321 Enterprises Inc ?
Not that this will help much as the next thing you will get is a sales call that will suss you out as an individual.

Bill


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