Author Topic: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple  (Read 3429 times)

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Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2020, 11:39:12 pm »
Another question that, for me, is the “Elephant in the room” is why the Reveal series only save a standard image file to flash memory and not a fully radiometric image file for further analysis on a PC ? Also, why is it not possible to stream video from the Reveal USB port like a web cam. Both features would have been seriously useful to many users.

I have no answers to either question. An opportunity missed though.

Fraser
 
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Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2020, 12:09:49 am »
Looking at the datasheet for the Seek Shot it can be seen that a compact camera can be capable of both video recording and streaming of the image to another device. We must consider the fact that the Seek Shot is <9fps but even a video recording mode that dropped the Fast Frame camera down to 9fps to assist the processor in its task would often be acceptable to a user.

https://www.thermal.com/uploads/1/0/1/3/101388544/seek_shotpro_specsheet-1.pdf

It would seem that the lack of video recording, radiometric image files and streaming capability on the Reveal Pro was a conscious marketing decision by Seek Thermal. They wanted the seek Reveal Pro to be a “grab and go” device for professional users but without the high price tag associated with their competitors products. Adding hardware like Wi-Fi and a PC program to analyse saved image data would have added cost to the project. The absence of Video Recording remains a mystery as it is provided on the cheaper Seek Thermal dongle cameras. I return to my thoughts on processor loading and heat production though. Some users of mobile phones and dongle cameras have reported their phones getting very hot and processor thermal speed throttling when recording video. Video recording is clearly a significant additional load.

Fraser
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 12:12:57 am by Fraser »
 
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Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2020, 12:01:20 pm »
I raised a post asking about supplemental lens adapters for the Reveal series.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/seek-reveal-and-reveal-pro-supplemental-lens-adapters/

This lead me to an eBay seller called LogoXXL (Wolf) And I invited him to join the forum. He has a lot of Germanium lenses and has designed replacement lenses for thermal camera. One design is fir the Seek Reveal. After joining the forum today, he has kindly uploaded  derails of modifying a Seek Reveal and adding a better lens. He has included examples of the pictures produced and comparisons with the original and new lens images. It is clear from the pictures that the Seek Reveal lens is a weak component in the camera design. I suppose you could call it ‘good enough’ rather than good.

Having spoken to a Bill W regarding Chalcogenide IR Glass lens design it is apparent that it is an art and the experience of the designer greatly influences the quality of the optical system and images produced. The Seek lens may be just a bit too small or not optimised for best image. I would look at fitting a better lens if I could find one that would match the Reveals current lens mount. Sadly no third party replacement lenses are available in the same format. Note also that the example images from LogoXXL using the 35mm lens in place of the Seek  lens  did not show obvious lens characteristic compensation errors which is good  :-+

Fraser

EDIT: PDF was corrupted by my iPAD  :palm: Now uploaded from my laptop and checked. Sorry.
I note that it exceeds the maximum file size that was allowed, yet it has uploaded fine.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 01:15:49 am by Fraser »
 

Offline IwuzBornanerd

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2020, 01:06:09 am »
Isn't a significant part of the difference between the clarity of the original Seek images and LogoXXL's telephoto images due to the fact that the stock lens is "fixed focus" and "fixed focus" == never focused?
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Offline IwuzBornanerd

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2020, 09:09:10 am »
Another question that, for me, is the “Elephant in the room” is why the Reveal series only save a standard image file to flash memory and not a fully radiometric image file for further analysis on a PC ? ...

Fraser

???


Images are normally stored as non-radiometric PNG. A menu option lets you save all temperature data, in which case the image is stored as a radiometric TIFF.

 ;D  ;D
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Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2020, 09:45:22 am »
IwuzBornanerd,

Interesting ! I had read the review but forgot about the TIFF comment.

Reading the Reveal manual suggested that the Reveal saves files in PNG format with only the spot temperature contained in the file. I can see I will have to do more reading and see exactly what is available in the way of radiometric data. There does not appear to be a SEEK Thermal PC program for image analysis though  :-//

Fraser
 

Offline IwuzBornanerd

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2020, 09:49:11 am »
There does not appear to be a SEEK Thermal PC program for image analysis though  :-//

Fraser

No, but I have a crude one--for Linux at least.  Well...maybe not a lot of analysis though; whatever that entails.
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Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2020, 10:14:57 am »
This raises a good point about the Seek Reveal Pro..........


When you receive the unit, the box contains a piece of paper that only really tells you to register the unit. There was no obvious web link to the Reveal Pro user manual (unless I missed it!) I went on the Seek Thermal site and searched for the Reveal Pro user manual. I was directed to download the Seek Reveal manual but that does not cover the Pro model differences ! A google search for the Reveal Pro found a simple guide that could not truly be considered a user manual yet that is its title. See here......

https://res.cloudinary.com/iwh/image/upload/q_auto,g_center/assets/1/26/Seek_Thermal_RevealPRO_Handheld_Thermal_Imaging_Camera_User_Manual.pdf

Now in comparison, I can search for Reveal ShieldPro or Reveal FirePro and I find proper user manuals.

Am I missing something here or is the Seek Thermal documentation for the a Reveal sadly lacking  :-//. Granted I have not spent a lot of time searching but this particular model seems to be treated a bit like an afterthought by Seek Thermal. I have yet to find any useful guidance on the radiometric ‘full’ mode and any associated Radiometric TIFF image storage. I would have expected Seek to highlight this units radiometric capabilities. Saying that, the specification for accuracy is stated as +/-5C or 5%, whichever is greater.

Maybe I am just being dumb here (there is a lot going on at the moment) but I expected to find a proper Reveal Pro manual and not a generic “Reveal Series” manual.

Seek Reveal ShieldPro manual:

https://www.thermal.com/uploads/1/0/1/3/101388544/reveal_shiledpro_user_manual.pdf

Seek Reveal FirePro manual:

https://www.thermal.com/uploads/1/0/1/3/101388544/reveal_firepro_manual_-_jun19mn.pdf

Seek Reveal “Series” manual

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54d4e995e4b08c8065ddef4c/t/570e7e7ff699bb1e4671e3dc/1460567680755/Reveal-English.pdf

And a “User Manual” for the Reveal like the Reveal Pro that is more like a QSG !

https://www.thermal.com/uploads/1/0/1/3/101388544/reveal_series_user_manual_051117.pdf

The official Seek Thermal web site page for Seek Reveal Series user manual ...... pretty rubbish IMHO. No mention of the Pro, Shield or Fire models.

https://support.thermal.com/hc/en-us/articles/207894336-Seek-Reveal-User-Guides


The Seek Q&A section answers common questions but offers no comment on the Pro TIFF files.......

“Q: How do I download/copy images?

A: To download an image, remove the rubberized back door from the end of the device and insert your included USB cord from your computer into the TIC. If you are using a Windows or MacBook, you will be automatically prompted to import all your photos. The photos are rendered in a standard .PNG format and can be edited, annotated, and inserted into documents easily. If you have a Reveal or RevealXR unit, you can eject the 512mb/4GB SD card, and erase and reuse it with an adapter (not included). When placing the SD card back in notch, make sure and the contacts are facing downward, and try not to bend the card or force it into the slot.”

To be honest, I find the documentation to be pretty awful ! Users should not have to hunt for manuals, hunt for information on their specific version or fail to find a detailed description of their versions capabilities and how to use them.

Ultrapurple ..... any thoughts on this ? Am I just being dumb here ?  :-//

Fraser
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 11:56:59 am by Fraser »
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2020, 12:12:53 pm »
OK, after some searching I see that our very own Joe_C has built Seek Reveal Pro TIFF file support into his ThermoVision software :-+ What wonderful chap Joe is  :-+ :-+ :-+

http://joe-c.de/pages/posts/unterstuetze_kameras_supported_cameras_195.php

I shall have to try it out on some test images  :)

Fraser
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2020, 12:52:12 pm »
It seems Joe_C was having the same problem as me finding data on the Reveal Pro radiometric TIFF file format !

From his 2018 update ......

“ - Seek Reveal Pro tiff frames can be read... a poor implementation now... i only grab the frame which is remapped with given min and max values or with a 2 point calibration with slope and offset. sadly i know not enough about the format, and seek seems to tell nothing about...”

Fraser
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2020, 04:11:55 pm »
I have found an excellent padded case for your lovely little Seek Reveal series camera. It could have been custom made for the role as the fit is perfect. The case may be worn on a belt or the provided shoulder strap attached. I wanted a horizontal belt format and this is perfect. It has both a Velcro and a zip closure and the zip can be left open fir fast access it closed for security :) The case is the Vanguard BIIN 7H and cost me £10.39. They have returned to their normal price of £12.99 on eBay now and £13.99 on Amazon.co.uk. I attach pictures of the nice fit :)

 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vanguard-BIIN-II-7H-Compact-Camera-Case-Black/401559868700?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225076%26meid%3D28be82eaf59144a4a960b74c4d17ecba%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D274314951216%26itm%3D401559868700%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A038c85d6-6f7c-11ea-b58f-74dbd1803803%7Cparentrq%3A179a028c1710aa66c9b2aaaafffe9334%7Ciid%3A1


https://www.amazon.co.uk/BIIN-II-7H-BK-Horizontal/dp/B01CUL1EN8/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Vanguard+biin+7h&qid=1585238985&sr=8-2
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 12:12:36 pm by Fraser »
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2020, 03:46:30 pm »
Another case for the Seek Reveal that does not cost a fortune and fits well. It is a vertical model for those who prefer such orientation.

The Jessops (UK) “Trek2 Compact Case” Medium sized case with both zip and Velcro fastening. It has both belt and shoulder strap mounting options. This one cost me £2.50 + £2.90 postage. It is well made and offers the Reveal excellent protection.

Fraser
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 03:55:15 pm by Fraser »
 

Offline JimM

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2020, 06:08:03 pm »
I finally decided to jump into the thermal image camera world and purchased a Seek Reveal PRO FF. I selected this camera based on: reasonable thermal resolution of 320X240, all-in one unit vs a dongle, good battery life of 4 to 5 Hrs, solid construction (see mikeselectricstuff teardown video), and reasonable price ($608  at Global Test Supply). The $608 included a Reed R8500 Video Inspection Camera that Global Test Supply threw in.

I won't do a review of the Seek Reveal since Ultrapurple has done a pretty comprehensive one at the start of this thread. Also there are other reviews on Youtube.

The documentation that Seek provides with the camera and on-line doesn't say it, but you can get radiometric data from the camera (sort of). On the Reveal, if you select Normal in the Modes menu the camera saves a PNG file. If you select Full Frame in the Modes menu and select Thermal Data "On" in the Settings -> Image -> Thermal Data menu, the camera saves a PNG file and a 3-page TIFF file. The second page of the TIFF file has 320X240 floating point values. As IwazBornanerd guessed, these are temperature values. The temperature values are always in degrees C no matter what you have selected for temperature units on the Reveal (C,F or K). The first page of the TIFF is an ARGB RGBA image, and I think the third page is raw thermal values since the data in the third page is 16-bit integers. As far as thermal metadata is concerned the MakerNotes has e=0.97, tr=25 in ASCII. Must be emissivity and reflected temperature. You can select emissivity on the Reveal (four values). I didn't see a place to change reflected temperature. This is a lot different than the thermal metadata saved in a FLIR file where they save many dozens of metadata tags.

The second page of the TIFF file is of interest from a radiometric data standpoint. You could map the temperatures to a different palette than is used in the PNG file, or map the palette over different temperature ranges, or show temperatures at points, or on a line, or in an area as is done with FLIR tools and other software for FLIR files. However, that's about it. You couldn't change the emissivity for example because you don't know how temperatures are calculated vs emissivity. That's why I say above that you "sort of" get radiometric data in the TIFF file.

A couple of oddities about the Reveal TIFF file --- the image in the first page seems to use a different palette than the PNG file. Not sure why. Also the images are rotated 90 degrees CW. In order to more easily work with the second page of the TIFF file, you could first split the original TIFF into three separate files. You can do that with ImageMagick convert.

So as an example, I took the requisite picture of my hand for the image posted below. In order to view the temperatures in readable form I wrote a little program in CodeRunner (on macOS) to create a csv file from the temperatures. The csv file also posted below, uses a comma as a separator and \n for line endings. Also added column headings 0...319 and row headings 0...239. The program also maps a simple 256 entry grayscale palette over the minimum to maximum temperatures and saves a ppm (P6) image which is also posted below.

The minimum and maximum temperatures from the csv file are 16.94 C (62.5 F) and 28.57 C (83.4 F) respectively. In another thread, Fraser posted about the temperature accuracy of the Seek Reveal. Basically the accuracy is specified as +/- 5 deg C or +/- 9 deg F. That looks to be about what it is. The background in the picture is an inside wall where the ambient temperature is 70 deg F. Also, skin temperature on the hand is about 5 deg F lower than body core temperature. It would be nice to get a little more accuracy on the temps.

Jim



« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 05:11:11 am by JimM »
 
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Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2020, 07:32:14 pm »
Very interesting. Thank you  :-+

I have not had time to play with the TIFF file yet.

I found the Reveal Pro documentation very poor and the lack of a software application to read the Radiometric TIFF files disappointing. I expected a PC and MAC program that permitted adding temperature measurement points, selecting span/centre temp for the displayed image and a change of Palette as a minimum.

Fraser
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2020, 07:35:37 pm »
A contact in the industry has advised me that Seek only sell their cores with a lens fitted. They wish to ensure that the user gets the best experience possible with their core. As such Seek Thermal do not offer alternative lenses for use with their cores or cameras.

Fraser
 

Offline IwuzBornanerd

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2020, 09:36:21 pm »
Good work JimM.  :-+ Thanks for the tiff.  Please see the following thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/seek-compact-pro-radiometric-jpegs/?PHPSESSID=oq1rsl36so8m87o6givc6h6kd0

As you surmise, there are some nifty things you can do with the temperature list.  Such as change palettes and extract more detail (and show all the noise).  I offer some samples.

960606-0

960610-1

960614-2

If you are so inclined you can fairly easily write a routine using libtiff to extract the 2 data frames.  When I did that, however, I got the third frame with only 4 non-zero numbers!  Maybe you have better luck.  I have not had that happen with any other tiffs I've used it on though.

I can believe that the 3rd frame is representative of radiance above -40C, but the values are a far cry from anything I would call "raw".  I'll attach what I got from your tiff via libtiff...even the worthless frame 3.
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Offline JimM

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2020, 10:47:24 pm »
IwuzBornanerd,

Yeah, you're right -- there are only four non-zero values in the third frame (or page).
I actually didn't look at that page for the image I posted.
I was thinking it was raw data based on a previous TIFF someone posted for a Seek compact PRO camera.
When I opened the third page of that file in GraphicConverter (Mac app) it showed a Grayscale image.
GraphicConverter typically does a contrast stretch of low contrast images like you get with raw data from an IR camera so you can actually see something.
So now I don't know what the third page represents.

It would be interesting to find out what other people get for that page from a Seek Reveal.
 

Offline JimM

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2020, 04:37:02 am »
To do more testing of the Seek Reveal PRO, I took a picture of the inside of the refrigerator where there are negative Celsius temperatures. The temperature range shown on the PNG image seems to be correct. However all the negative temperatures in the TIFF file temperature page are 0x80000000 (little Endian). The C function fprintf() interprets that as 0. So apparently there is a software bug with negative temps (or else I have a defective camera). The camera has software version 1.0.6.9 which is supposedly the latest software. So again, it would be interesting to see what others people get for a TIFF file.

Edit: I take that back about the negative temps being wrong in the TIFF file. They are correct. For some reason, when I split the file in ImageMagick, I get the bogus values. If I manually excise the second page of the TIFF file, I get the correct temps. Minimum -16.72 and maximum 7.25 C respectively. The PNG and TIFF files are attached.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 06:12:58 am by JimM »
 

Offline IwuzBornanerd

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2020, 09:42:26 am »
Still only 4 values in page 3; bummer.  Different values though.  It will be interesting to see if this is consistent across all Reveals or if there is something unique in your unit, as perhaps software/firmware version.

The beauty of these tiff files is that regardless of how wide the temperature span is you have the temperature value from each pixel out to a ridiculous 6 decimal places so you can re-create the image with more contrast & detail if desired.

With the same palette spread over a narrower temperature range:
961636-0

Or with a more contrasty palette, which might not make it any easier to identify things (I need to make something better than the 2 I have):
961640-1

Or you can just apply another standard palette  :):
961644-2
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 09:45:49 am by IwuzBornanerd »
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Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2020, 12:31:18 pm »
I will upload my Reveal Pro TIFF file when I find a moment today.

Fraser
 

Offline JimM

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2020, 02:34:33 pm »
Yeah, the 4 non-zero values on page 3 seems to be a constant across all images. Not the exact same 4 values, but just 4 values. I also wonder if that's unique to this camera or not. I have software version 1.0.6.9, which according to the Seek website is the latest software.

Regarding the 4-byte floating point values, yes half-precision 16-bit point floating point would be perfectly sufficient considering the accuracy of 5 deg C. However, 16-bit floating point although used in image processing, isn't a standard data type in C for example.

Regarding the image itself, I was wondering what that scalloping affect at the top of the image was, since there is nothing with that shape on that shelf. There is an open egg carton on the shelf below the tupperware container and I think that's a reflection of the egg carton. I have seen reflections like that in numerous thermal images -- reflections that you don't have in the visible light world, or are greatly attenuated. Interesting.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2020, 03:27:37 pm »
Pictures from my Seek Reveal Pro FF

I had to change the file ID to .jpg but just rename it .TIFF after saving.

Fraser
 
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Offline JimM

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2020, 07:12:49 pm »
Fraser,
Ok it looks like you have the same version of camera software that I have and you get similar results.
For your IMGT0056.TIFF file 2nd page, I get 11.8 to 30.2 C temps.
For the 3rd page there are only 2 4 non-zero values!

So I guess our cameras are working the same.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 09:35:08 pm by JimM »
 

Offline IwuzBornanerd

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2020, 09:26:16 pm »
I get 4 values from both Fraser's images--the same values even AND the same values that are in JimM's image 20!  And upon closer examination the 2 that are different in Jim's file are higher by 16 compared to the other files.  Strange.

I should have known there would be a cat photo.  :)  But I thought it there might be something more "technical".

Standard palette, narrower span:
961920-0

961924-1

"Contrasty" palette:
961928-2

961932-3

I hope that's enough for now (wanted to get this in before Fraser retires for the day).  I'll attach the tiff info. below...IF I don't exceed size limits.

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Offline JimM

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Re: SEEK Reveal Pro FF review by Ultrapurple
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2020, 09:46:14 pm »
Bornanerd,

Ah, you're right, its 4 non-zero values on page 3 -- it's 16-bit integers, not 32-bit integers.
Maybe page 3 is work in progress -- not ready for prime time.

 


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