The CAT S60 phone - good for "casual" users?

[cprobertson1]

Good morning folks!

I've just returned a borrowed FLIR TG165 that I was using for troubleshooting and I've been saying it for a while, but it'd be useful to have a thermal camera in the lab.

I am not, however, a profession EE-dude (that's totallya technical term  ) - so I probably don't need a multi-thousand pound FLIR setup (though it would be fun to play with, I'm sure!) - but I do do a lot of repairs and feel a thermal camera of some sort would be a useful addition to the lab.

My original plan was to just buy a FLIR TG165 - though not the best thermal cam, it would suffice for my needs of low-end thermal design (as in non-professional thermal management in enclosures) and as a troubleshooting aid (huh, that IC is sitting at 400K - maybe there's something up with it)


As a non sequitur - I've also been on the lookout for a new phone - and was attracted to the Caterpillar brand due to their ruggedness -
 from there I happened across the CAT S60 - and my interest was piqued!

I was wondering if any of the CAT S60 owners here might be able to opine on the S60 and let me know whether they think it'd be worth it? (versus getting a FLIR TG165 in several months time after I've got the money for a new phone)

Thanks for all the advice folks - much appreciated

[capt bullshot]

my 5ct:
I wouldn't buy a combination of a long life product (that's what you expect from your thermal imager) and a short life product (that's what the smartphone part is). Appears the smartphone part is already outdated now.

[cprobertson1]

Hmm, now that is an interesting consideration: even after say, two years - would I still keep the camera around for it's thermal features even after I stop using the phone part of it? And if so, would the thermal features outweigh a FLIR TG165? I think they have the same lepton sensor - phone obviously has a bigger screen (same resolution on the sensor, mind) and is easier to save footage from - but the TG165 is likely more accurate and will probably last longer overall... hmmm - decisions, decisions.

I'll see if the local phone shop can get a hold of a CAT S60 so I can compare it to the TG165 directly.

I think I'm leaning towards the TG165 at the moment - but they both have their pros and cons (even if the S60 is a little outdated phone-wise, I don't exactly run anything resource-intensive on my phone - and it's still a considerable step up from my current 4-year-old phone)

Auch well, thanks for the input! I'll keep thinking on it!

[Vipitis]

I own the S60 for more then a year and use it daily.

It is my first phone I ever bought.

It's bulky and heavy. The screen is just 720p - it's really bad for cardboard.


It's rugged af and waterproof. I dropped it slot on concrete or other material... I only got a minor chip in the glass when I dropped it from 80cm onto a gravel pavement - I am still considering RMA to reassure the waterproofing.

The battery life is great - but WiFi is only 2.4ghz.

I took about 980 thermal captures so far. But more then half will be duplicates of trying to get thermal images of the moon for a long time.

I don't even take a photo most of the time.

I used it today to check temps on my 3D printer and ....

I will continue my comment later

[cprobertson1]

Update:
Found out I can return the phone under the 14-day "cooling off" period if I purchase the phone online; so I've decided to give it a try and see how it goes.

It arrived on Saturday - and I've been liking it so far - though it is built like a brick, that's part of the reason I like it.

I'm going to borrow the TG165 as well, and do some side by side comparisons - at the moment I'm leaning towards the phone though - it's robustness and convenience of always having a thermal camera with me seem to be winning out over the TG165 (for me at least - again, bearing in mind that I am by no means a professional user! Were I working for-profit in my lab instead of for-fun (and the occasional profit of course ) I'd want a more dedicated piece of hardware.

We shall see how it turns out!

[electrostorm]

Since 2014/2015 mobile phone CPU performance has been leveling out and screen size has stopped increasing. The remaining factors affecting average life are;
 
a) build quality, why design something to last more than two years if consumers are going to replace their handset? This does not apply to the CAT S60.
b) cultural status, I'm still using a well looked after 2013 phone as my main device despite also having a newer phone which is mainly used as a data device and not always carried. The comments I get about my 2013 handset are very telling about the 2 year fashion in phones.

I would love a CAT S60, especially a smashed one which I could fix myself or get the Lepton out and use the module in a project.

[Vipitis]

Okay, I will continue m, comment.

Great you found a way to try it out. That was a suggestion anyways.

So thermal camera. Resolution is low. The stock app always captures MSX and locking the tempscale isn't possible. You get flir tools mobile where you can move the scale but not change the spectrum is covers. That is possible on flir tools desktop only. And still can't save a raw thermal.

Other capture APPs like geroge's thermal camera have some more options but have no interval feature for example.

Ben's FOne Ultimate is unsupported right now.

The Lepton 2 is a lot worse then LEPTON3 with 4times the res, different gain modes and also other fov - which is really high for the phone.

The shortcuts are aweomes. Like having the flashlight on single click and myFLIR on hold for the gold button but hold doesn't work from a locked phone for example. And flir tools only works when you launch is within myFLIR. Which, when run in background, still uses the lepton and eats power as well as heard a lot so be sure to close the app and hear if the shutter still activates.


I have asked FLIR, CAT, Bullit and even here if the Lepton can be upgraded to LEPTON3 because it's sooo much better in all the ways and just 240€.

My advice. Get the phone if you love it. But get a LEPTON3 and build a small module yourself that connects via WiFi or something aweomes so you can use the proper software for it.

Flir one 3pro is Soo expensive.


If you got more questions, ask me away.

Expect to rip off the metal cover on the charging port flap one day and set your MAXX audio to multimedia if you want to listen to anything like a YouTube video.

[cprobertson1]

 @Vipitis

I have to say, I am liking this phone - sure it's not as fast as it could be, but it's still faster than my old phone*. It is also built like a brick*. Like, seriously, I dropped it yesterday and it took me eight hours to fill in the impact crater*.

Compared to a new phone like a Galaxy S8, it's no comparison performance-wise*; BUT that's not what I want it - I want it for it's ruggedness and reliability* - with the thermal camera being an added bonus; and on that front I think it's going to deliver well.

Still, 1.5 weeks left of the "trial" - will see how I get on! I've not had any problems with it so far with it - I've not had any problems with the speaker volume like some others have had (I don't generally use my phone for media anyway, excepting the odd video on youtube or netflix  - in which case there's a good chance I'm either using headphones or have it pretty close)


@electrostorm
Judging from the hardiness of the phone, I reckon I'll get at least 2-3 years of service out of it, assuming the lepton doesn't die on it (though FLIR reckon the lepton has an MTBF of 12-14 years - at which point the shutter mechanism fails - not sure how that would stand up to being in a pocket though; unlike a dedicated thermal camera, this one will be carried round with me pretty much every day - bouncing around in one's pocket can't be too good for it (though I can't imagine it being too bad for it either))

That's an interesting idea about reusing the sensor at the phones end-of-life, I'll need to keep that in mind if I keep the phone - though I'll probably end up just using the phone as a dedicated thermal camera once I have no need for the phone part of it.


I'm still playing with it - going to pick up the FLIR TG165 tomorrow - should hopefully get some real testing done over the weekend comparing the two. So far, most of my testing has involved it's usability as an actual phone xD

Thanks for the advice folks! I'll need to try out the apps that vipitis suggested too!

[jitter]

@electrostorm
Judging from the hardiness of the phone, I reckon I'll get at least 2-3 years of service out of it, assuming the lepton doesn't die on it (though FLIR reckon the lepton has an MTBF of 12-14 years - at which point the shutter mechanism fails - not sure how that would stand up to being in a pocket though; unlike a dedicated thermal camera, this one will be carried round with me pretty much every day - bouncing around in one's pocket can't be too good for it (though I can't imagine it being too bad for it either))

At least the sensor and shutter are easy to source and replace as I found out with my S60. It won't be cheap though, around a third of the value of a new S60.

I will spare you the long story but you can source them (as a company or an individual) from Digi-Key, part no. 500-0763-01. This is the one with the shutter, but they are also available without.
Ordering from the EU meant Digi-Key had me fill in some US government paperwork as "additional export controls" apply.

Then it's a matter of opening the phone (awkward but possible) removing the metal bracket holding both cameras down and carefully prying out the Lepton sensor (it's in a socket). The new one simply plugs in. If you forgot the orientation of the old one, the socket will provide clues as to how it should go in.

[Vipitis]

I emailed Bullit and asked them, if it is possible to replace the Lepton with a higher resolution model. And they just said it wouldn't fit.

As you took the phone apart - would you agree?

[Spirit532]

The driver software is different for the Lepton3.
The Lepton2 sends the whole frame out in a 80x60 block(more or less, telemetry), the Lepton3 needs four frames and later stitching in software.
Plus the clock speed requirement is different.

[jitter]

@Vipitis
If you compare the datasheets of both sensors, you'll find that they have exactly the same dimensions. So Cat is not telling the entire truth, but no doubt it's the easy way of telling it won't work without needing to get technical.

@Spirit532
Since size, pinout and master clock are the same for both sensors, would it be theoretically possible to use the Lepton 3 in the Cat S60 if suitable drivers and software were to become available?
If so, would the S60 be able to cope with the added processor load?

[Spirit532]

@Spirit532
Since size, pinout and master clock are the same for both sensors, would it be theoretically possible to use the Lepton 3 in the Cat S60 if suitable drivers and software were to become available?
If so, would the S60 be able to cope with the added processor load?

Yes, most likely.
It's still a tiny image.
However, good luck finding drivers and software for it, or making your own. That's a task I wouldn't recommend undertaking.
Technically, if you pre-configure the lepton in a certain way, you could get it to run with the current software, but you'd be seeing an alternating pattern of 4 sections of the image. I'm not sure if the S60 talks to it via I2C or just dumps images out of the SPI port.