Author Topic: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault  (Read 2575 times)

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Offline HalFET

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2019, 02:29:22 pm »
Leaving the moral dilemmas aside for a minute, I honestly see an even bigger issue with this. There are loads of ways you can have hot spots on your body that have no physiological meaning. i.e. recently charged phone in your pocket, sitting in the sun for a while, ... How are you going to filter those things out? Not to mention a large metal belt buckle might hide an area you're interested in.  :-DD
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2019, 05:20:25 pm »
just teach your girl to not be touched by stranger, not go in enclosed/secluded place with them lonely, if massage needed, ask only for female massager etc. there are many other better solutions to both male and female side but most of them just dont want to take the lesson. now ignoring the more potent solutions, they want to invent less potent one :palm: you can make statistical study to show your invention is technically correct, but you are not going to solve it anyway. if its not in SPA, it can be anywhere.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline eKretz

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2019, 07:17:03 pm »
Yeah one big problem is the fact that ladies want the onus to be on others to behave. It would be far better to be proactive and take precautions. The only person's behavior one can control for sure is one's own. Relying on someone else to do the right thing in a very vulnerable situation is not a good plan. In a perfect world this wouldn't be the case, but one must make do with what one has. No matter how much better "society" gets, there will always be bad people who don't follow the normal societal "rules."
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2019, 07:47:09 pm »
No matter how much better "society" gets, there will always be bad people who don't follow the normal societal "rules."
since you mentioned it... when bad rules are considered as good rules, bad people will become good people ;)
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2019, 10:29:18 pm »
Leaving the moral dilemmas aside for a minute, I honestly see an even bigger issue with this. There are loads of ways you can have hot spots on your body that have no physiological meaning. i.e. recently charged phone in your pocket, sitting in the sun for a while, ... How are you going to filter those things out? Not to mention a large metal belt buckle might hide an area you're interested in.  :-DD
The answer is AI. AI fixes everything, right?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2019, 10:34:03 pm »
just teach your girl to not be touched by stranger, not go in enclosed/secluded place with them lonely, if massage needed, ask only for female massager etc. there are many other better solutions to both male and female side but most of them just dont want to take the lesson. now ignoring the more potent solutions, they want to invent less potent one :palm: you can make statistical study to show your invention is technically correct, but you are not going to solve it anyway. if its not in SPA, it can be anywhere.
Females abuse females, men abuse men and women abuse men. Don't make the mistake of only thinking of the archetypal man abuses woman. Real world abuse is much more pluriform than that.
 

Offline eKretz

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2019, 03:18:14 am »
just teach your girl to not be touched by stranger, not go in enclosed/secluded place with them lonely, if massage needed, ask only for female massager etc. there are many other better solutions to both male and female side but most of them just dont want to take the lesson. now ignoring the more potent solutions, they want to invent less potent one :palm: you can make statistical study to show your invention is technically correct, but you are not going to solve it anyway. if its not in SPA, it can be anywhere.
Females abuse females, men abuse men and women abuse men. Don't make the mistake of only thinking of the archetypal man abuses woman. Real world abuse is much more pluriform than that.

Yes, of course they do. The context of the OP's post was protection of female spa clients, however, which is why I worded it the way I did. Regardless, many (not all) victims of such things would have done well to be a little more proactive.
 

Offline HalFET

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2019, 10:02:30 am »
Leaving the moral dilemmas aside for a minute, I honestly see an even bigger issue with this. There are loads of ways you can have hot spots on your body that have no physiological meaning. i.e. recently charged phone in your pocket, sitting in the sun for a while, ... How are you going to filter those things out? Not to mention a large metal belt buckle might hide an area you're interested in.  :-DD
The answer is AI. AI fixes everything, right?
Sure thing doc!  :-DD
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2019, 11:06:35 am »
Females abuse females, men abuse men and women abuse men. Don't make the mistake of only thinking of the archetypal man abuses woman. Real world abuse is much more pluriform than that.
when the education got corrupted... (and social and economy hierarchy too, not sure what term to be used)

level 1 (the lowest level, the normal level): man abuse woman
level 2 (the higher corruption): man abuse man
level 3 (even higher): woman abuse woman
level 4 (the master chief level): woman abuse man
anything else are somewhere in between

imho its something with education and "way of life" ;)
are you sure "Artificial" Intelligent can fix "Real" Intelligence? (read stupidity)
who created AI in the first place? and to what extend can it solve something?


if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline HalFET

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2019, 01:32:37 pm »
Females abuse females, men abuse men and women abuse men. Don't make the mistake of only thinking of the archetypal man abuses woman. Real world abuse is much more pluriform than that.
when the education got corrupted... (and social and economy hierarchy too, not sure what term to be used)

level 1 (the lowest level, the normal level): man abuse woman
level 2 (the higher corruption): man abuse man
level 3 (even higher): woman abuse woman
level 4 (the master chief level): woman abuse man
anything else are somewhere in between

imho its something with education and "way of life" ;)
are you sure "Artificial" Intelligent can fix "Real" Intelligence? (read stupidity)
who created AI in the first place? and to what extend can it solve something?

The issue is that people don't really seem to realise that modern day "AI" boils down to something that smells a lot like some of the linear algebra techniques (e.g. state space analysis) with a few things tacked on to mimic the behaviour of something we see in nature. They fail to realise that the "magic" that makes it work is the fact most cases where it works are quite simple. So they start to think you can just feed a massive amount of data to an "AI" and hope that it produces something useful, while what you'll see instead is the same scaling problems of the initial techniques pop-up. And the quicker we get over this AI fad, the quicker we can actually start using it for something decent.  :D
 

Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2019, 03:42:45 pm »
The answer is AI. AI fixes everything, right?

Oh yeah totally, same thing is happening with sUAS right now. The "free" UTM will fix all our exaggerated concerns of drones operating over humans and in controlled airspace /s

for those not in the know, the UAS industry is a huge venture capital mess right now due to the FAA's regulations. How OP doesn't see the medical field doing the same thing to him, is unbeknownst to me
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2019, 04:16:14 pm »
Yes, of course they do. The context of the OP's post was protection of female spa clients, however, which is why I worded it the way I did. Regardless, many (not all) victims of such things would have done well to be a little more proactive.
Don't put the blame on the victim. It's the worst thing you can do after abuse.
 
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Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2019, 05:47:37 pm »
Don't put the blame on the victim. It's the worst thing you can do after abuse.

Silencing someones opinion based on some wannabe virtuous nonsense is quite bad itself, so please remember that life isn't a big hugbox and difficult discussions need to take place sometimes. Yes, it does help to question and verify the alleged victim. False accusations determining the full extent of the story are two of many reasons why it's necessary.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2019, 06:03:10 pm »
Silencing someones opinion based on some wannabe virtuous nonsense is quite bad itself, so please remember that life isn't a big hugbox and difficult discussions need to take place sometimes. Yes, it does help to question and verify the alleged victim. False accusations determining the full extent of the story are two of many reasons why it's necessary.
Don't be silly. This has nothing to do with political correctness or false accusations. This is about asking victims whether they could have been "a little more proactive", which is both a hugely naive question which doesn't  take the realities of abuse into account and terribly harmful for victims who typically question themselves already.

I'll remind you of the public outrage in a recent case where men were acquitted of rape. Despite the victim verbally expressing non-consent, there wasn't enough violence involved to classify it as rape. Apparently people need to resist and consequently get roughed up and receive a few hits a bit to make sure their rapists can be convicted as such. There's a whole world of hurt and psychological terror without any physical violence being involved. But hey, maybe this girl needs to ask herself why she didn't do enough while being raped.

hthttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/protests-spain-five-men-cleared-of-teenagers-gang-rape-pamplona
 
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Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2019, 07:00:14 pm »
Silencing someones opinion based on some wannabe virtuous nonsense is quite bad itself, so please remember that life isn't a big hugbox and difficult discussions need to take place sometimes. Yes, it does help to question and verify the alleged victim. False accusations determining the full extent of the story are two of many reasons why it's necessary.
Don't be silly. This has nothing to do with political correctness or false accusations. This is about asking victims whether they could have been "a little more proactive", which is both a hugely naive question which doesn't  take the realities of abuse into account and terribly harmful for victims who typically question themselves already.

I'll remind you of the public outrage in a recent case where men were acquitted of rape. Despite the victim verbally expressing non-consent, there wasn't enough violence involved to classify it as rape. Apparently people need to resist and consequently get roughed up and receive a few hits a bit to make sure their rapists can be convicted as such. There's a whole world of hurt and psychological terror without any physical violence being involved. But hey, maybe this girl needs to ask herself why she didn't do enough while being raped.

hthttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/protests-spain-five-men-cleared-of-teenagers-gang-rape-pamplona

You can't claim it has nothing to do with political correctness and false accusations when you literally go on to spew your bias all over the place.

We're delving too deep into a facebook-type political argument, the fact is we have to verify the veracity of statements or we risk losing the publics trust in the justice system (yeah, more than we've already lost it) due to any unstable individual crying wolf to damage anothers reputation.

Reality and your idealistic utopia are two wildly different beasts
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2019, 07:24:22 pm »
You can't claim it has nothing to do with political correctness and false accusations when you literally go on to spew your bias all over the place.

We're delving too deep into a facebook-type political argument, the fact is we have to verify the veracity of statements or we risk losing the publics trust in the justice system (yeah, more than we've already lost it) due to any unstable individual crying wolf to damage anothers reputation.

Reality and your idealistic utopia are two wildly different beasts
Not blaming the victim has nothing to do with political correctness and false accusations. A condescending attitude and trying to frame my post as a "facebook-type political argument", "bias" or "idealistic utopia" doesn't change that or make for valid arguments. Unfortunately it also almost completely preemtively eliminates the possibility of any further constructive dialogue. Let's reset and try again, but this time without the belligerence.
 

Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2019, 07:31:15 pm »
Not blaming the victim has nothing to do with political correctness and false accusations. A condescending attitude and trying to frame my post as a "facebook-type political argument", "bias" or "idealistic utopia" doesn't change that or make for valid arguments. Unfortunately it also almost completely preemtively eliminates the possibility of any further constructive dialogue. Let's reset and try again, but this time without the belligerence.

Okay so let's start on the ground level, the crux of the disagreement we have is based on your view that victims should always be believed and the worst thing you can do is to verify the veracity of their statements?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2019, 07:45:51 pm »
Okay so let's start on the ground level, the crux of the disagreement we have is based on your view that victims should always be believed and the worst thing you can do is to verify the veracity of their statements?
I haven't said or implied either of those things. The term "victim" implies that it's someone who suffered actual abuse. If there's no abuse it's not a victim.
 

Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2019, 08:01:06 pm »
I haven't said or implied either of those things. The term "victim" implies that it's someone who suffered actual abuse. If there's no abuse it's not a victim.

And we arrive at our first logical fallacy, care to elaborate how you expect people to read the individuals mind to know if they're someone who has suffered actual abuse?

Do you understand how dangerous these assumptions can be?
 

Offline eKretz

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2019, 10:37:51 pm »
Yes, of course they do. The context of the OP's post was protection of female spa clients, however, which is why I worded it the way I did. Regardless, many (not all) victims of such things would have done well to be a little more proactive.
Don't put the blame on the victim. It's the worst thing you can do after abuse.

Saying that someone could have been more proactive is absolutely NOT blaming the victim. As I already mentioned, in an ideal world a person would not have to worry about such things. We don't live in one. This is a silly argument IMO. If we change the context would you still be arguing this point?

So a theoretical example: there's a part of town where people commonly get mugged in the wee hours of the morning. A man walks through there in the middle of the night when he could have chosen to take a different route or get a cab and gets mugged and beaten. Could he have avoided this trouble if he were more proactive and chose another option? Is it blaming the victim to say that he could have been more proactive? Of course not! Yours is a ridiculous argument. If he had never heard about the muggings and was from out of town perhaps he would not have been able to do that... And as I said earlier, being more proactive would not help in EVERY case.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 10:44:59 pm by eKretz »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2019, 11:39:42 pm »
And we arrive at our first logical fallacy, care to elaborate how you expect people to read the individuals mind to know if they're someone who has suffered actual abuse?

Do you understand how dangerous these assumptions can be?
How are the facts as they transpired a logic fallacy? There has been abuse or there has not been. What transpired is not a matter of opinion, although it can sometimes be tricky to establish. There's no assumption in there.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2019, 11:51:05 pm »
Saying that someone could have been more proactive is absolutely NOT blaming the victim. As I already mentioned, in an ideal world a person would not have to worry about such things. We don't live in one. This is a silly argument IMO. If we change the context would you still be arguing this point?

So a theoretical example: there's a part of town where people commonly get mugged in the wee hours of the morning. A man walks through there in the middle of the night when he could have chosen to take a different route or get a cab and gets mugged and beaten. Could he have avoided this trouble if he were more proactive and chose another option? Is it blaming the victim to say that he could have been more proactive? Of course not! Yours is a ridiculous argument. If he had never heard about the muggings and was from out of town perhaps he would not have been able to do that... And as I said earlier, being more proactive would not help in EVERY case.

It's not "a ridiculous argument", it's a well known phenomena in psychology which turns out to be quite harmful. It's a phenomena which is likely the result of us trying our hardest to create separation between ourselves and the victim. If the victim is to blame we won't have to expect it happening to ourselves and our rosy view of the world can remain intact. Read all about it in the link below, and please make sure you do.

It should also be noted that your argument is a very slippery slope. It's why Muslim women go veiled or completely covered in many places, because they're somehow made responsible for the lack of restraint of others. It's easily argued that people who get sexually harassed should have worn a burka.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/supersurvivors/201803/why-do-people-blame-the-victim
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2019, 12:39:40 am »
NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator EEVblog for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.
If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.
An optional additional explanation is:
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 04:16:12 am by EEVblog »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 
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Offline eKretz

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2019, 01:46:17 am »
Saying that someone could have been more proactive is absolutely NOT blaming the victim. As I already mentioned, in an ideal world a person would not have to worry about such things. We don't live in one. This is a silly argument IMO. If we change the context would you still be arguing this point?

So a theoretical example: there's a part of town where people commonly get mugged in the wee hours of the morning. A man walks through there in the middle of the night when he could have chosen to take a different route or get a cab and gets mugged and beaten. Could he have avoided this trouble if he were more proactive and chose another option? Is it blaming the victim to say that he could have been more proactive? Of course not! Yours is a ridiculous argument. If he had never heard about the muggings and was from out of town perhaps he would not have been able to do that... And as I said earlier, being more proactive would not help in EVERY case.

It's not "a ridiculous argument", it's a well known phenomena in psychology which turns out to be quite harmful. It's a phenomena which is likely the result of us trying our hardest to create separation between ourselves and the victim. If the victim is to blame we won't have to expect it happening to ourselves and our rosy view of the world can remain intact. Read all about it in the link below, and please make sure you do.

It should also be noted that your argument is a very slippery slope. It's why Muslim women go veiled or completely covered in many places, because they're somehow made responsible for the lack of restraint of others. It's easily argued that people who get sexually harassed should have worn a burka.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/supersurvivors/201803/why-do-people-blame-the-victim

And I'll say it again! Nobody is trying to blame the victim in any of these scenarios! Who is at fault in all of these scenarios? The perpetrator of the crime! That doesn't mean that any potential victim (any and all of the entire population that is....) shouldn't consider their own actions and what could help keep them safer...

So, sorry, but I totally disagree that your argument is not ridiculous. Someone saying "you should have known better" or "he/she brought it on his/her self" (this would rightly be construed as "blaming the victim") is not the same as saying "do everything reasonable in your power to be proactive and increase your chances of not being made a victim." If you can't see the difference I don't know what else to say. BTW, being proactive means acting BEFORE the fact... So by definition there IS no victim yet when one is being proactive!

The other thing about how some people make stupid choices in terms of their own safety is an entirely different matter - but absolutely not something that should be said to any victim of any serious crime.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 01:51:16 am by eKretz »
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2019, 01:59:43 am »
And I'll say it again! Nobody is trying to blame the victim in any of these scenarios! Who is at fault in all of these scenarios? The perpetrator of the crime! That doesn't mean that any potential victim (any and all of the entire population that is....) shouldn't consider their own actions and what could help keep them safer...

So, sorry, but I totally disagree that your argument is not ridiculous. Someone saying "you should have known better" or "he/she brought it on his/her self" (this would rightly be construed as "blaming the victim") is not the same as saying "do everything reasonable in your power to be proactive and increase your chances of not being made a victim." If you can't see the difference I don't know what else to say. BTW, being proactive means acting BEFORE the fact... So by definition there IS no victim yet when one is being proactive!

The other thing about how some people make stupid choices in terms of their own safety is an entirely different matter - but absolutely not something that should be said to any victim of any serious crime.
Please read the article in the link I posted. It's little use for me to repeat what it says, but that's exactly what victim blaming often looks like.
 


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