Thermal Camera Expertise Requested to help SPAs to stop Sexual Assault

[Shepherd AI]

Thank you for taking a look at this post. Some quick context - I am a complete novice so please bear with me as I explain the challenge.

SPA environments have recently been in the news for employees raping clients during sessions. Our company, Shepherd AI, has developed an AI platform that is able to detect and prevent sexual assault and risky human behaviors in a defined business environment, such as SPA environments, retirement homes, hospice care, Doctors Offices, etc.

And what does this have to do with Thermal imaging expertise? We currently have integrated a variety of sensors into the AI platform to assist with the detection of behaviors, and we would like to add in a thermal imaging device to produce images or video similar to the attached jpg.. We were told a FLIR camera could generate these images and as we progressed to integrate the FLIR camera system. And then we discovered the FLIR pricing to be extremely expensive even at volume. As such we discovered we have several constraints,

1) No one on our team has thermal imagining experience and therefore not sure where to start digging (FLIR sales hasn't been very helpful)
2) The cost of the camera should hover around $100 to $300 dollars per unit at volume pricing (10000+ units)
3) The temperature range is narrow. The camera would need to be optimized for the human body temperature range
4) Given the narrow temperature range, ideally an increase in resolution and color gradient definition would be perfect (320 x 240 or better so I have been told)
5) The imaging device will be approximately anywhere from 4 ft to 6ft away from the subject
6) our AI platform operates on a Linux machine and a camera integration with linux would be great
7) Lastly we use a variety of carrier boards and we should not have any challenges connecting the equipment

My questions for the community is as follows:

Does anyone know of a camera that fits the above requirements off the shelf or close enough and we can tweak to bring in range?
Or better yet, a suggestion for a subject matter thermal imaging expert to speak with may be a better option?
And lastly, are we being unrealistic in trying to secure a thermal imaging device around the $100 dollar price point at the resolution required?

Thank you again for taking the time to read this post. The addition of a thermal imaging device increases the accuracy of the AI platform and given the sensitivity of the problem set (sexual assault) it is important to be right every time. I appreciate your intelligence and willingness to add value to a worthy cause.

Respectfully,

The Shepherd AI Team


 

[Spirit532]

And lastly, are we being unrealistic in trying to secure a thermal imaging device around the $100 dollar price point at the resolution required?

Simply put, yes.
To get anywhere close to the images you've attached the absolute lowest barrier to entry would be around $300, using cheap, relatively poor performance cameras.

Especially if you consider

3) The temperature range is narrow. The camera would need to be optimized for the human body temperature range

Which is the absolute worst position to put a thermal camera in. A low temperature range with a high sensitivity requirement.

The photos you've shown appear to have come from a high resolution, cooled medical camera, because they clearly show a large set of gradients over a small temperature range. A consumer camera would not be able to do this at all, with all the detail being masked by the noise.

If you're okay with manufacturing a series of expensive prototypes, then 1-10k units may be able to bring the component cost(no markup) of a proper system down to that ~$300 upper mark you're looking at, but not without very significant NRE costs, as this would definitely imply designing your own specialized camera based on existing solutions, or finding an OEM that will do that for you.


This, however:

2) The cost of the camera should hover around $100 to $300 dollars per unit at volume pricing (10000+ units)

1) No one on our team has thermal imagining experience and therefore not sure where to start digging (FLIR sales hasn't been very helpful)

Makes me doubt a lot of things, because if FLIR saw that number they would be doing their best to cater to your needs. That is a massive order.

I'm available for consulting and further development, but before I or anyone else can say anything, you're going to need to describe your application for a thermal imager in explicit detail, because I don't see how it can do anything that a regular IR-illuminated night vision camera can't in terms of detecting behavioral patterns.

[Vipitis]

hm, strange request.

the best FLIR will offer is a lepton with 160x120 and awful optics. Can you explain your application a bit more? Is this about survalliance or screening?

medical grade cameras are cooled and usually have a very expensive reference black box as well. Airport fever screeening systems cost upwards 10k

tell us some more. a cheap 320x240 sensor like Seek won't do great. Maybe you can get Ulis or i3 to sell you an OEM dev kit for 340x240 sensors, these will be better than seek and cheaper than FLIR. maybe even work with a medical palette, but results will be worse than shown.

good luck

[Shepherd AI]

We are currently using an infrared visual sensor as a part of the technology offering. Also a laser scatter for depth and stereo visual sensors. The inclusion of the thermographic device allows for another data set for the AI to compare against as well as a potential client facing image that would be usable in the spa environment. The conversation with FLIR focused on their inability to meet objective at the budget requested. We were steered to the FLIR One and the lepton system which does not provide the level of detail wanted to incorporate into the device. The next level above was a high end camera which retails over $1000 dollars and the agent indicated even with a volume order of 10000 units he wouldn't be able to bring the price down below $1000. He indicated that FLIR had not intention on building a mid level low cost camera at this time.

As for engineering a system from OEM parts, that is fine provided we have the technical expertise to guide the project forward. If that is the recommendation of the forum members we will pursue that direction and look to secure a consultant or engineering firm to assist.

[Shepherd AI]

Vipitis, I have reached out to I3 requesting assistance. Thank you

[JacobPilsen]

Sexual Assault politics has now infected electronics as well.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Might help if you told us what SPA stands for

[gnavigator1007]

I think SPA might stand for spa 

[Mr. Scram]

How is a system going to prevent abuse before it's already happening and too late? How are clients feeling about being electronically monitored, even with the express pinky promise the data is only local? Are staff aware of the monitoring? If so, how are you preventing tampering or abuse outside of its range? If not, is that a good idea?

This honestly smells like a child of "everybody hates rape" and "let's develop a product featuring today's buzzword, AI". With the term "platform" being thrown around I worry that it's somehow hooking into the IoT fad to create a perfect storm too.

[eKretz]

Still scratching my head as to how this would be helpful as well.

[Shepherd AI]

Gentleman I appreciate the vigorous feedback. I will stay away from the politics of the time and focus on the reasoning for the idea. We started our journey on this problem several years ago long before AI or Sexual Assault was a buzz word in politics or the election campaigns. The co-founders of the company owned a variety of businesses at the time including multiple spa franchises in the washington DC area. The co-founders where on the receiving end of an employee victimizing multiple clients, including the co-founder's daughter and wife. When you fail at keeping your clients safe, that is deplorable, but when you fail at keeping your wife and daughter safe, that is horrendous and will shake you to your core. That is the journey that led to the creation of the technology.

Initially the tech was created with the purpose of catching predators in the act or interrupting predatory behaviors. Over time, once the emotions died down and the logical mind kicked in, the technology became a road to recovery. A road to recovery in that protecting trust in a professional environment is a smart business decision and even smarter for a company's branding position. If you had the option to enroll your loved one in an assisted living or elder care facility with great staff and had the choice between a business that used AI to maintain quality and safety of the clients and employees or an assisted living facility that used training and faith to keep your loved one safe, which one would you choose? Now read this article and consider again: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/us/hacienda-healthcare-phoenix-closing.html

As an aside there is second order consequence of the technology, the same employees who used to get falsely accused of groping or assaulting someone (many times for quick money settlements from dishonest clients) now have an agnostic third party that can testify on their behalf. We are finding the technology better used to keep the innocent employees from being strung out and potentially have their reputation soiled by a dishonest few. 

Why leave trust to chance? Why leave your business open to liability from risky human behaviors from a crazy few? Why expose your family and clients to unnecessary risk?
 
I again thank anyone who provides feedback and questions. I can understand the nervousness and push back. In closing, we have smoke detectors to allow us to maintain situational awareness if the improbable and small chance a fire breaks out. Carry the smoke detector principle forward and use technology to keep your business, clients and employees safe from unnecessary human risk such as sexual assault.
   

[gnavigator1007]

How do you think thermal cameras and AI are going to stop sexual assault? What benefit do you see of thermal cameras versus more traditional security cameras. Are you just wanting to see in the dark? Seems like you don't know much about thermal cameras but are still trying to incorporate it into other surveillance tech to sell to somebody else that also doesn't have an understanding. What are you actually trying to do?

[eKretz]

I think this will add a significant cost for not much benefit. I totally understand and agree with the principle, but I'm just not seeing how a thermal camera could help. Unless you're just going for the "neat-o gee-whiz" factor. Regular visual camera and/or night vision camera (if you're worried about perpetrators turning the lights out) would seem to be plenty for the stated application and at a far lower cost.

[Shepherd AI]

Gnavigator1007, great question. We are using a variety of other sensors as mentioned in an earlier post for the bulk of the detection. The incorporation of the thermal imagery data will allow the AI to pull another data set to clarify the behavior the AI is witnessing. There is a correlation between body heat and certain behaviors, both for the predator and for the victim. The groin, the chest, the hands, the head all generate distinctive heat signatures. Using normal AI open sourced and proprietary data sets work well for the identification of these areas and when you layer an additional data set from thermal imaging on top, the AI accuracy increases even further. There is also a unique opportunity to use the data generated from the imaging device to assist with judging the effectiveness of the therapy spa session, that is currently anecdotal and we will need to test the theory to validate. 

[2N3055]

That kind of technology is kind of privacy invasion that spurred creation on stupid GDPR in EU.
I'm certain this technology, if you make it work, will definitely prevent any crime.
Because, as soon as customers of spa (or whatever institution using this) realize what are you doing here, there won't be any customers to assault.
This is legal and PR nightmare to anybody trying to use it.

[Mr. Scram]

Thanks for the sales pitch, but it didn't quite address any of the questions and concerns. How is a buzzword device going to prevent abuse or even provide value over a common video camera? If I'd have to choose between a facility which spends its resources on technology in check instead of one which focuses on quality care I would certainly pick the latter. No amount of technology can prevent or correct evil behaviour or replace competent staff and hiring and training suitable employees becomes more of a challenge when you're throwing resources at other things.

Not to mention the story sounds incoherent. Both the founder's wife and daughter were assaulted? The first victim of those two didn't report being abused and needs a device to do so? Or is the founder married to his daughter and were both abused at the same time?

It really does seem to be a technology sold to ease the minds of anxious people, but without providing clear benefits. Some might call is sexual security theater. Not to mention the possibilty of false postives and negatives, creating nightmare scenarios for the staff or victim involved.

[Mr. Scram]

That kind of technology is kind of privacy invasion that spurred creation on stupid GDPR in EU.
I'm certain this technology, if you make it work, will definitely prevent any crime.
Because, as soon as customers of spa (or whatever institution using this) realize what are you doing here, there won't be any customers to assault.
This is legal and PR nightmare to anybody trying to use it.

Don't worry, us monitoring your every move with a network of sensors is for your own benefit. Stop resisting, just relax.

[Fraser]

Parking the idea of a thermal camera as part of an analytical surveillance system for a moment.... have you considered an AI acoustic monitor that listens for trigger words like STOP!, NO! and HELP! ? Such voice recognition technology has much to offer in monitoring acoustic activity in an area. Aircraft cockpit voice recorders have long been crucial to determining what is happening in an emergency situation. Acoustic monitoring is hard to hide from.

A thermal image is a spectrum of energy that can detect an elevated body temperature and bare skin so such can be used by AI to detect sexual arousal and undressing but how well such would perform when using a cheap thermal camera I cannot say. A thermal camera can see in the dark but it cannot see through a privacy curtain for instance. I would normally recommend CCTV with IR illumination and ‘no’ or ‘flat’ picture content detection to detect masking. CCTV can be evidential as it can provide identification. A thermal camera cannot. As has already been stated, the example images are from a high quality thermal camera like the industrial units I own. They cost a small fortune and there is no truly cheap thermal camera solution that will likely meet your needs at the moment. The Lepton 3 is about all there is but China is trying to create viable miniature cores at low prices so we may see more options in the future.

I wish you well with your product development but I honestly think you are pushing the limits of what you can achieve with the budget that you have set. As you know, your AI is only as good as its programming and the quality of data you feed into it. A lepton core is OK, but it will not set the world on fire with its thermal imaging performance !

Fraser

[IanB]

A tangential thought, but AI's need to be trained on typical data sets so they can recognize similar things. Does this mean you have to hire sex workers to train the AI by enacting similar scenarios to the ones you want to catch? Might there be some ethical concerns about this?

[Mr. Scram]

A tangential thought, but AI's need to be trained on typical data sets so they can recognize similar things. Does this mean you have to hire sex workers to train the AI by enacting similar scenarios to the ones you want to catch? Might there be some ethical concerns about this?

Both sex workers and actors are unlikely to yield suitable datasets without key differences.

[gnavigator1007]

That really sounds like it would mostly be used to detect sexual arousal. Even if it can be made to work, it could be a very bad idea. I've known many woman that have been victims over the years. Something that I've heard numerous times is that some have felt shame at becoming aroused in the moment of the rape/abuse. There is often a defence of claiming such acts as consensual. Now imagine that defence going along with your system that could show that indeed both parties were in a state of physical arousal. Even with other sensor data, you must remember that not everyone fights back. Some are so surprised in the moment that they do nothing. So much easier to make non tech based changes in a workplace to create a safer environment.

Now that other bit about studying the effectiveness of spa therapy is a more interesting idea, but I'm very skeptical of your ability to do it within budget. Have you thought about what happens to your sales if the system shows treatment to not be effective?

[tsman]

Do you have a working prototype? Your posts here are vague and just indicate you want to throw a thermal camera into this because the AI will then somehow make it work but no clear idea on how to actually achieve that.

Your site (https://www.shepherdai.com/ai-products) makes lofty claims about what your device can do. You claim your device will be ceiling mounted and resembles a smoke detector. It can track multiple people in the room with accurate location of all limbs which feeds into a complex deep learning algorithm to determine if anything is non-consensual. All of this is without an internet connection or remote processing and can be solar or battery powered.

It all just sounds like marketing spiel to attract investors.

[Vipitis]

So we can clearly see that you are trained in marketing. But it's like shark tank. Without a prototype, a patent heck even a white paper with example images you are basically just an idea.

The thought is understandable, have AI watch alk the data feeds and decide if it's normal or misconduct. But unless you have some cool tricks up your sleeve - AI won't do it. You say it will run on a Linux based small device, good luck with that being powerful enough to feed any kind of network. A thermal imaging feed like the you you described, 320*240; 9hz and 14 bit pixels gives you a lot of data already, it is manageable and real time image classification for HD video @60fps is possible, but needs a well trained auto encoder and lots of levels of lowering the vectors inputted. If you increase your input with a visible light camera(for identification) and a IR iluminated camera for dark parts of the screen, and a microphone or two and some more sensors you can come up with. If your device is stationary you can eliminate a lot of repeating data and your tCNN should as well.

The task is very huge and you need training data of potentially upwards of 10k hours of all feeds at a good framerate.
If you want to reconstruct a 3D model skeleton of people in the room, you don't need AI, Kinect for room scale and Leap Motion for closeup hands work already, fairly reliable.

You could use multiple devices in one room to create a 3D reconstruction and have a real time model of what is happening. Thermal cameras could give you information about how much skin is showing, arousal status and maybe even touch, as fingerprints and footprints can be left. 

Yet without seeing a single data point or even a drawing of how you believe this will all be done. I am calling BS, even if your idea and intend is genuine. Thinking about buying 10k cores without having used a single one, is not the right move.

Start with a Boson 320 get the wide angle lens and 30hz model with 40mk. The Boston core has a chip for "AI" stuff and classification is an example project among others in the FLIR developer community. Look up what flir offers on it's survalliance side with mixed camera sensors and think about going a similar direction.

Just to criticize your whole pitch. "in places where survalliance is inappropriate or not allowed" we will but a device with even more sensors and hide it. In dressing rooms, toilets etc. Any investigator and judge will believe a technical device with unknwon formulars over a victim testifying that doesn't want to? You could end up dragging people into court that are not victims at all because you need years of training and testing.

No data recorded, means no evidence for humans to see and judge, no connection to the internet means it won't be able to alert you or the employer etc.

Leaving good training and behavior to be controller by a non working robot is just a bad idea.

Show some examples to back yourself up.

The only thing that I can think of that is close, was a wide angle ceiling mounted camera that detected how man people are in the room and if they are working, if they are smoking, if they are naked - no AI needed.  I can't find the video right now but I will look for it.

Show something and stop trying to sell us and the world an idea with nothing behind it. It's a utopian thought that is very dystopian on second thought.

Deep learning can do a lot and it's awesome for video forensics and survalliance on large scale, but without he resources and data sizes of the Chinese government, this won't happen.

[Faith]

That really sounds like it would mostly be used to detect sexual arousal. Even if it can be made to work, it could be a very bad idea. I've known many woman that have been victims over the years. Something that I've heard numerous times is that some have felt shame at becoming aroused in the moment of the rape/abuse. There is often a defence of claiming such acts as consensual. Now imagine that defence going along with your system that could show that indeed both parties were in a state of physical arousal. Even with other sensor data, you must remember that not everyone fights back. Some are so surprised in the moment that they do nothing. So much easier to make non tech based changes in a workplace to create a safer environment.

To add onto this excellent statement by gnavigator1007; any analysis based on "sexual arousal" is pretty much a complete fail right from the get-go in my opinion.

Assuming that such a device will be installed at a spa where you will have clients undergoing a massage for example -- and where victims will likely be at their most vulnerable -- is it even illegal to be "sexually aroused" during a massage session? I very much doubt so.

And judging by the statements of a number of ex-colleagues I've had over the years who were more than happy to be vocal about their massage sessions, I'm going to guess that such behavior it's NOT uncommon.

This issues goes WAY beyond whether or not a thermal imager is suited for what you're trying to accomplish.

I've been trying to ignore this thread since its inception but every single time I see it at the top of this forum I cannot help but mutter "seriously, what?" under my breath.

And what about privacy? It's extremely common for clients to be completely naked (or at the very least top-less) at a spa.

And finally... what if the perpetrator isn't even aroused by their actions?

As a woman and a victim I cannot help but maintain serious doubts as to whether or not this device in question will even protect me, or worse yet whether or not it'll unwittingly end up protecting the perpetrator instead. Just no, no... no. No.

[Bill W]

And what about privacy? It's extremely common for clients to be completely naked (or at the very least top-less) at a spa.

As a woman and a victim I cannot help but maintain serious doubts as to whether or not this device in question will even protect me, or worse yet whether or not it'll unwittingly end up protecting the perpetrator instead. Just no, no... no. No.

While there have been arguments made that 'thermal imagery is not enough to identify' in people tracking, eg supermarkets, I cannot but agree and believe this would be either hacked or misused by other "spas" for streaming thermoporn.
I think a UK TV show (so probably Channel 5) got into trouble for this a couple of years back.

[HalFET]

Leaving the moral dilemmas aside for a minute, I honestly see an even bigger issue with this. There are loads of ways you can have hot spots on your body that have no physiological meaning. i.e. recently charged phone in your pocket, sitting in the sun for a while, ... How are you going to filter those things out? Not to mention a large metal belt buckle might hide an area you're interested in. 

[Mechatrommer]

just teach your girl to not be touched by stranger, not go in enclosed/secluded place with them lonely, if massage needed, ask only for female massager etc. there are many other better solutions to both male and female side but most of them just dont want to take the lesson. now ignoring the more potent solutions, they want to invent less potent one you can make statistical study to show your invention is technically correct, but you are not going to solve it anyway. if its not in SPA, it can be anywhere.

[eKretz]

Yeah one big problem is the fact that ladies want the onus to be on others to behave. It would be far better to be proactive and take precautions. The only person's behavior one can control for sure is one's own. Relying on someone else to do the right thing in a very vulnerable situation is not a good plan. In a perfect world this wouldn't be the case, but one must make do with what one has. No matter how much better "society" gets, there will always be bad people who don't follow the normal societal "rules."

[Mechatrommer]

No matter how much better "society" gets, there will always be bad people who don't follow the normal societal "rules."

since you mentioned it... when bad rules are considered as good rules, bad people will become good people

[Mr. Scram]

Leaving the moral dilemmas aside for a minute, I honestly see an even bigger issue with this. There are loads of ways you can have hot spots on your body that have no physiological meaning. i.e. recently charged phone in your pocket, sitting in the sun for a while, ... How are you going to filter those things out? Not to mention a large metal belt buckle might hide an area you're interested in. 

The answer is AI. AI fixes everything, right?

[Mr. Scram]

just teach your girl to not be touched by stranger, not go in enclosed/secluded place with them lonely, if massage needed, ask only for female massager etc. there are many other better solutions to both male and female side but most of them just dont want to take the lesson. now ignoring the more potent solutions, they want to invent less potent one you can make statistical study to show your invention is technically correct, but you are not going to solve it anyway. if its not in SPA, it can be anywhere.

Females abuse females, men abuse men and women abuse men. Don't make the mistake of only thinking of the archetypal man abuses woman. Real world abuse is much more pluriform than that.

[eKretz]

just teach your girl to not be touched by stranger, not go in enclosed/secluded place with them lonely, if massage needed, ask only for female massager etc. there are many other better solutions to both male and female side but most of them just dont want to take the lesson. now ignoring the more potent solutions, they want to invent less potent one you can make statistical study to show your invention is technically correct, but you are not going to solve it anyway. if its not in SPA, it can be anywhere.

Females abuse females, men abuse men and women abuse men. Don't make the mistake of only thinking of the archetypal man abuses woman. Real world abuse is much more pluriform than that.

Yes, of course they do. The context of the OP's post was protection of female spa clients, however, which is why I worded it the way I did. Regardless, many (not all) victims of such things would have done well to be a little more proactive.

[HalFET]

Leaving the moral dilemmas aside for a minute, I honestly see an even bigger issue with this. There are loads of ways you can have hot spots on your body that have no physiological meaning. i.e. recently charged phone in your pocket, sitting in the sun for a while, ... How are you going to filter those things out? Not to mention a large metal belt buckle might hide an area you're interested in. 

The answer is AI. AI fixes everything, right?

Sure thing doc! 

[Mechatrommer]

Females abuse females, men abuse men and women abuse men. Don't make the mistake of only thinking of the archetypal man abuses woman. Real world abuse is much more pluriform than that.

when the education got corrupted... (and social and economy hierarchy too, not sure what term to be used)

level 1 (the lowest level, the normal level): man abuse woman
level 2 (the higher corruption): man abuse man
level 3 (even higher): woman abuse woman
level 4 (the master chief level): woman abuse man
anything else are somewhere in between

imho its something with education and "way of life"
are you sure "Artificial" Intelligent can fix "Real" Intelligence? (read stupidity)
who created AI in the first place? and to what extend can it solve something?

[HalFET]

Females abuse females, men abuse men and women abuse men. Don't make the mistake of only thinking of the archetypal man abuses woman. Real world abuse is much more pluriform than that.

when the education got corrupted... (and social and economy hierarchy too, not sure what term to be used)

level 1 (the lowest level, the normal level): man abuse woman
level 2 (the higher corruption): man abuse man
level 3 (even higher): woman abuse woman
level 4 (the master chief level): woman abuse man
anything else are somewhere in between

imho its something with education and "way of life"
are you sure "Artificial" Intelligent can fix "Real" Intelligence? (read stupidity)
who created AI in the first place? and to what extend can it solve something?

The issue is that people don't really seem to realise that modern day "AI" boils down to something that smells a lot like some of the linear algebra techniques (e.g. state space analysis) with a few things tacked on to mimic the behaviour of something we see in nature. They fail to realise that the "magic" that makes it work is the fact most cases where it works are quite simple. So they start to think you can just feed a massive amount of data to an "AI" and hope that it produces something useful, while what you'll see instead is the same scaling problems of the initial techniques pop-up. And the quicker we get over this AI fad, the quicker we can actually start using it for something decent. 

[Hyper_Spectral]

The answer is AI. AI fixes everything, right?

Oh yeah totally, same thing is happening with sUAS right now. The "free" UTM will fix all our exaggerated concerns of drones operating over humans and in controlled airspace /s

for those not in the know, the UAS industry is a huge venture capital mess right now due to the FAA's regulations. How OP doesn't see the medical field doing the same thing to him, is unbeknownst to me

[Mr. Scram]

Yes, of course they do. The context of the OP's post was protection of female spa clients, however, which is why I worded it the way I did. Regardless, many (not all) victims of such things would have done well to be a little more proactive.

Don't put the blame on the victim. It's the worst thing you can do after abuse.

[Hyper_Spectral]

Don't put the blame on the victim. It's the worst thing you can do after abuse.

Silencing someones opinion based on some wannabe virtuous nonsense is quite bad itself, so please remember that life isn't a big hugbox and difficult discussions need to take place sometimes. Yes, it does help to question and verify the alleged victim. False accusations determining the full extent of the story are two of many reasons why it's necessary.

[Mr. Scram]

Silencing someones opinion based on some wannabe virtuous nonsense is quite bad itself, so please remember that life isn't a big hugbox and difficult discussions need to take place sometimes. Yes, it does help to question and verify the alleged victim. False accusations determining the full extent of the story are two of many reasons why it's necessary.

Don't be silly. This has nothing to do with political correctness or false accusations. This is about asking victims whether they could have been "a little more proactive", which is both a hugely naive question which doesn't  take the realities of abuse into account and terribly harmful for victims who typically question themselves already.

I'll remind you of the public outrage in a recent case where men were acquitted of rape. Despite the victim verbally expressing non-consent, there wasn't enough violence involved to classify it as rape. Apparently people need to resist and consequently get roughed up and receive a few hits a bit to make sure their rapists can be convicted as such. There's a whole world of hurt and psychological terror without any physical violence being involved. But hey, maybe this girl needs to ask herself why she didn't do enough while being raped.

hthttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/protests-spain-five-men-cleared-of-teenagers-gang-rape-pamplona

[Hyper_Spectral]

Silencing someones opinion based on some wannabe virtuous nonsense is quite bad itself, so please remember that life isn't a big hugbox and difficult discussions need to take place sometimes. Yes, it does help to question and verify the alleged victim. False accusations determining the full extent of the story are two of many reasons why it's necessary.

Don't be silly. This has nothing to do with political correctness or false accusations. This is about asking victims whether they could have been "a little more proactive", which is both a hugely naive question which doesn't  take the realities of abuse into account and terribly harmful for victims who typically question themselves already.

I'll remind you of the public outrage in a recent case where men were acquitted of rape. Despite the victim verbally expressing non-consent, there wasn't enough violence involved to classify it as rape. Apparently people need to resist and consequently get roughed up and receive a few hits a bit to make sure their rapists can be convicted as such. There's a whole world of hurt and psychological terror without any physical violence being involved. But hey, maybe this girl needs to ask herself why she didn't do enough while being raped.

hthttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/protests-spain-five-men-cleared-of-teenagers-gang-rape-pamplona

You can't claim it has nothing to do with political correctness and false accusations when you literally go on to spew your bias all over the place.

We're delving too deep into a facebook-type political argument, the fact is we have to verify the veracity of statements or we risk losing the publics trust in the justice system (yeah, more than we've already lost it) due to any unstable individual crying wolf to damage anothers reputation.

Reality and your idealistic utopia are two wildly different beasts

[Mr. Scram]

You can't claim it has nothing to do with political correctness and false accusations when you literally go on to spew your bias all over the place.

We're delving too deep into a facebook-type political argument, the fact is we have to verify the veracity of statements or we risk losing the publics trust in the justice system (yeah, more than we've already lost it) due to any unstable individual crying wolf to damage anothers reputation.

Reality and your idealistic utopia are two wildly different beasts

Not blaming the victim has nothing to do with political correctness and false accusations. A condescending attitude and trying to frame my post as a "facebook-type political argument", "bias" or "idealistic utopia" doesn't change that or make for valid arguments. Unfortunately it also almost completely preemtively eliminates the possibility of any further constructive dialogue. Let's reset and try again, but this time without the belligerence.

[Hyper_Spectral]

Not blaming the victim has nothing to do with political correctness and false accusations. A condescending attitude and trying to frame my post as a "facebook-type political argument", "bias" or "idealistic utopia" doesn't change that or make for valid arguments. Unfortunately it also almost completely preemtively eliminates the possibility of any further constructive dialogue. Let's reset and try again, but this time without the belligerence.

Okay so let's start on the ground level, the crux of the disagreement we have is based on your view that victims should always be believed and the worst thing you can do is to verify the veracity of their statements?

[Mr. Scram]

Okay so let's start on the ground level, the crux of the disagreement we have is based on your view that victims should always be believed and the worst thing you can do is to verify the veracity of their statements?

I haven't said or implied either of those things. The term "victim" implies that it's someone who suffered actual abuse. If there's no abuse it's not a victim.

[Hyper_Spectral]

I haven't said or implied either of those things. The term "victim" implies that it's someone who suffered actual abuse. If there's no abuse it's not a victim.

And we arrive at our first logical fallacy, care to elaborate how you expect people to read the individuals mind to know if they're someone who has suffered actual abuse?

Do you understand how dangerous these assumptions can be?

[eKretz]

Yes, of course they do. The context of the OP's post was protection of female spa clients, however, which is why I worded it the way I did. Regardless, many (not all) victims of such things would have done well to be a little more proactive.

Don't put the blame on the victim. It's the worst thing you can do after abuse.

Saying that someone could have been more proactive is absolutely NOT blaming the victim. As I already mentioned, in an ideal world a person would not have to worry about such things. We don't live in one. This is a silly argument IMO. If we change the context would you still be arguing this point?

So a theoretical example: there's a part of town where people commonly get mugged in the wee hours of the morning. A man walks through there in the middle of the night when he could have chosen to take a different route or get a cab and gets mugged and beaten. Could he have avoided this trouble if he were more proactive and chose another option? Is it blaming the victim to say that he could have been more proactive? Of course not! Yours is a ridiculous argument. If he had never heard about the muggings and was from out of town perhaps he would not have been able to do that... And as I said earlier, being more proactive would not help in EVERY case.

[Mr. Scram]

And we arrive at our first logical fallacy, care to elaborate how you expect people to read the individuals mind to know if they're someone who has suffered actual abuse?

Do you understand how dangerous these assumptions can be?

How are the facts as they transpired a logic fallacy? There has been abuse or there has not been. What transpired is not a matter of opinion, although it can sometimes be tricky to establish. There's no assumption in there.

[Mr. Scram]

Saying that someone could have been more proactive is absolutely NOT blaming the victim. As I already mentioned, in an ideal world a person would not have to worry about such things. We don't live in one. This is a silly argument IMO. If we change the context would you still be arguing this point?

So a theoretical example: there's a part of town where people commonly get mugged in the wee hours of the morning. A man walks through there in the middle of the night when he could have chosen to take a different route or get a cab and gets mugged and beaten. Could he have avoided this trouble if he were more proactive and chose another option? Is it blaming the victim to say that he could have been more proactive? Of course not! Yours is a ridiculous argument. If he had never heard about the muggings and was from out of town perhaps he would not have been able to do that... And as I said earlier, being more proactive would not help in EVERY case.

It's not "a ridiculous argument", it's a well known phenomena in psychology which turns out to be quite harmful. It's a phenomena which is likely the result of us trying our hardest to create separation between ourselves and the victim. If the victim is to blame we won't have to expect it happening to ourselves and our rosy view of the world can remain intact. Read all about it in the link below, and please make sure you do.

It should also be noted that your argument is a very slippery slope. It's why Muslim women go veiled or completely covered in many places, because they're somehow made responsible for the lack of restraint of others. It's easily argued that people who get sexually harassed should have worn a burka.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/supersurvivors/201803/why-do-people-blame-the-victim

[Mechatrommer]

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[eKretz]

Saying that someone could have been more proactive is absolutely NOT blaming the victim. As I already mentioned, in an ideal world a person would not have to worry about such things. We don't live in one. This is a silly argument IMO. If we change the context would you still be arguing this point?

So a theoretical example: there's a part of town where people commonly get mugged in the wee hours of the morning. A man walks through there in the middle of the night when he could have chosen to take a different route or get a cab and gets mugged and beaten. Could he have avoided this trouble if he were more proactive and chose another option? Is it blaming the victim to say that he could have been more proactive? Of course not! Yours is a ridiculous argument. If he had never heard about the muggings and was from out of town perhaps he would not have been able to do that... And as I said earlier, being more proactive would not help in EVERY case.

It's not "a ridiculous argument", it's a well known phenomena in psychology which turns out to be quite harmful. It's a phenomena which is likely the result of us trying our hardest to create separation between ourselves and the victim. If the victim is to blame we won't have to expect it happening to ourselves and our rosy view of the world can remain intact. Read all about it in the link below, and please make sure you do.

It should also be noted that your argument is a very slippery slope. It's why Muslim women go veiled or completely covered in many places, because they're somehow made responsible for the lack of restraint of others. It's easily argued that people who get sexually harassed should have worn a burka.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/supersurvivors/201803/why-do-people-blame-the-victim

And I'll say it again! Nobody is trying to blame the victim in any of these scenarios! Who is at fault in all of these scenarios? The perpetrator of the crime! That doesn't mean that any potential victim (any and all of the entire population that is....) shouldn't consider their own actions and what could help keep them safer...

So, sorry, but I totally disagree that your argument is not ridiculous. Someone saying "you should have known better" or "he/she brought it on his/her self" (this would rightly be construed as "blaming the victim") is not the same as saying "do everything reasonable in your power to be proactive and increase your chances of not being made a victim." If you can't see the difference I don't know what else to say. BTW, being proactive means acting BEFORE the fact... So by definition there IS no victim yet when one is being proactive!

The other thing about how some people make stupid choices in terms of their own safety is an entirely different matter - but absolutely not something that should be said to any victim of any serious crime.

[Mr. Scram]

And I'll say it again! Nobody is trying to blame the victim in any of these scenarios! Who is at fault in all of these scenarios? The perpetrator of the crime! That doesn't mean that any potential victim (any and all of the entire population that is....) shouldn't consider their own actions and what could help keep them safer...

So, sorry, but I totally disagree that your argument is not ridiculous. Someone saying "you should have known better" or "he/she brought it on his/her self" (this would rightly be construed as "blaming the victim") is not the same as saying "do everything reasonable in your power to be proactive and increase your chances of not being made a victim." If you can't see the difference I don't know what else to say. BTW, being proactive means acting BEFORE the fact... So by definition there IS no victim yet when one is being proactive!

The other thing about how some people make stupid choices in terms of their own safety is an entirely different matter - but absolutely not something that should be said to any victim of any serious crime.

Please read the article in the link I posted. It's little use for me to repeat what it says, but that's exactly what victim blaming often looks like.

[EEVblog]

NOTE: If this thread does not remain technical as per the OP's request it will get locked.