What's the best low cost >9 Hz thermal camera

[Nogtail]

I've been looking to get myself a thermal camera around the $500 USD price range. Ideally I'd like something with a high frame rate (>9 Hz) and a decent resolution. I've mostly been focusing on smartphone based cameras as they seem to go for a significantly lower price. Android support and USB-C compatibility is required for me.

I've looked at the following cameras:
FLIR One Pro: Probably the cheapest one I could find. Horrible resolution and frame rate, weird charging solution, and I'm not a huge fan of MSX either. FLIR seems to get expensive quickly if you want something better than the One Pro.
Seek Compact Pro: Looks like the best bang per buck, image quality doesn't look great but has USB-C and a high frame rate (>15 Hz) model available. Getting the high frame rate model outside the US seems a bit tricky though.
I3 Systems Thermal Expert: Image quality looks pretty good but is expensive and doesn't appear to have a USB-C model. The lower resolution TE-M1 seems to have a 30 Hz option available but I can't find a high frame rate option for the TE-Q1 which has a higher resolution.
Opgal Therm-App: I can't seem to find any for sale and the website doesn't seem to have had updates in years. Are they still making them? Otherwise they seem to have great image quality and a price to match.
Xinfrared Xtherm T3: I can't find much on this one. Has USB-C and a 25 Hz frame rate but images look very heavily processed. They don't provide a price, I can't find any reviews, and their whole site looks pretty sketchy.

I'm leaning towards the Seek Compact Pro at the moment, but I'd like to see what you guys think.

I'd also love to know if anyone has experience getting high frame rate cameras outside the US (Australia).

Thanks!

[M0HZH]

Thermal cameras with a sensor refresh rate of over 9Hz are controlled items in many (most) countries because of their military applications. It's usually quite complicated to get them imported/exported. I haven't seen one yet, but it would be fair to assume some manufacturers might interpolate the output of a 9Hz camera to achieve higher "display" framerates while also avoiding this restriction.

US$500 is not much budget for a thermal camera, only the mobile phone addons fit the bill. Usually high framerates would be necessary for security applications or maybe some content production, I'd rather get better resolution / sensitivity instead.

[Bill W]

You are likely looking at in-country purchase for >9Hz, and although some are importable to countries such as Oz for resale you then have a reseller margin.

If it is a true stand alone camera you would like, do you still need Android & USB-C ? 
Would analogue video from the camera and a TV input cable work from the likes of Hauppauge for you ?

If so a second user fire camera might be suitable.  You can often (see forum advice) strip out the core and reuse it in packaging to suit your intentions.

Bill

[I wanted a rude username]

If you're willing to accept the ITAR frame rate in exchange for convenience and coolness, you can get an all-in-one solution for AUD $770: the Blackview BV9800 Pro, a ruggedised FLIR-equipped smartphone.

[Nogtail]

You are likely looking at in-country purchase for >9Hz, and although some are importable to countries such as Oz for resale you then have a reseller margin.

If it is a true stand alone camera you would like, do you still need Android & USB-C ? 
Would analogue video from the camera and a TV input cable work from the likes of Hauppauge for you ?

If so a second user fire camera might be suitable.  You can often (see forum advice) strip out the core and reuse it in packaging to suit your intentions.

Bill

I've been looking at some of the second hand fire cameras and they seem like they could be quite decent with some modification. I'd rather something a bit more portable with the ability to save images/video if I can find it. It could be a fun project to try and make something portable out of one of the old analogue cores though.

If you're willing to accept the ITAR frame rate in exchange for convenience and coolness, you can get an all-in-one solution for AUD $770: the Blackview BV9800 Pro, a ruggedised FLIR-equipped smartphone.

If the thermal resolution was a bit higher that would be a killer phone for me, but for what I'd be using it for I'd need a much higher resolution.

[guazan]

I have the 9hz type c te-m1usb and I am happy with the purchase, I use it especially for electronics and other things of curiosity, here I put some photos without retouching.

[NinetySix]

I had no trouble getting my HTI HT-301 in to the country, didn't even get stung with GST

It's a little bit more than us$500, but still in kinda the same ball park, and it's a hell of a lot of camera for the money. 25hz, fairly high res at 384x288, sensitivity is amazing, which I put down to the large 17 micron pixels and a germanium lens. Focal length is quite long, not sure precisely what it is but you would probably call it "telephoto" on a visible light camera. The last point could also be viewed as a negative, often have to step back to fit the subject in the frame, but also it's great for viewing critters at night.

I had a lepton 3.5 (think flir one pro) equipped camera before the 301 and I cannot stress enough just how much of a quantum leap in performance the 301 has. Here's a link to some photos & videos from my 301:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6Wmtw5DKgNysY8vz7

With the lepton I never really saw much in the way of blood vessels, no sweat for the 301. Same with seeing nostrils cooling with each breath, for both birds and people

[Nogtail]

I had no trouble getting my HTI HT-301 in to the country, didn't even get stung with GST

It's a little bit more than us$500, but still in kinda the same ball park, and it's a hell of a lot of camera for the money. 25hz, fairly high res at 384x288, sensitivity is amazing, which I put down to the large 17 micron pixels and a germanium lens. Focal length is quite long, not sure precisely what it is but you would probably call it "telephoto" on a visible light camera. The last point could also be viewed as a negative, often have to step back to fit the subject in the frame, but also it's great for viewing critters at night.

I had a lepton 3.5 (think flir one pro) equipped camera before the 301 and I cannot stress enough just how much of a quantum leap in performance the 301 has. Here's a link to some photos & videos from my 301:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6Wmtw5DKgNysY8vz7

With the lepton I never really saw much in the way of blood vessels, no sweat for the 301. Same with seeing nostrils cooling with each breath, for both birds and people

That's seriously impressive. I think the 301 might be the best camera for what I need.

What's the build quality like? It's hard to tell from pictures if it has a plastic or metal body.

[Nogtail]

HT301=T3S=T3Pro

T3Pro has the best sensor bin (same chip, just different silicon quality and maybe lens quality), rated +-2C error (with perfect calibration), up to 400C (two gain levels, the lower one goes up to 120C) range.

HT301 has the second bin, rated +-3C and otherwise the same.

T3S has the lowest bin, rated +-5C error, and the 400C range is neutered. Not a big deal if you only need to measure up to 120C.

Hint: the 400C range is grainy, so not really useful anyway.

The three are all metal cased, with adjustable 13mm lens that is good from macro to fairly decent distance.

The lenses are not locked, so if you are not careful enough, you risk screwing it down from the camera body. That being said, at the brink of being removed from the camera, you get super macro focus, and I was able to see sweat pores on my fingers.

All have auto gain (no manual option), so with too large or too little dynamic range in the FOV, you will see bad image quality.

With too much dynamic range, the AGC reduces gain and you lose accuracy even if you don't need the extra range. With too little dynamic range, the AGV boosts gain and you get noisy images.

There is a third party SDK for those things, as they are, after all, UVC devices, and you send special commands to set parameters and trigger calibration.

But the image processing is done on camera, so you don't get access to raw sensor data. If what you are after is accurate temperature measurement, this is not what you want.

From pictures the T3S/Pro have a longer USB connector that looks like it would fit my phone better. I've tried to contact Xinfared to get a price for the T3S/Pro but never heard back. Do you know roughly how much they cost?

I'm mostly interested in decent video output, so not having the best temperature accuracy isn't a deal breaker. I'm more worried about the outlines that I've seen on some images that make it look like some sharpening is being done.

Manual gain isn't essential but would be helpful for what I want to do. Do you know if it's possible to get manual gain through the SDK?

[zrq]

Basically, you can get the raw sensor data out of your HT301 or Xtherm and do anything you want with some coding.

To my eye, the official apps for them do apply excessive processing to the image. I used a third party app (https://thermviewer.com/ , for a fee) with my Xtherm camera. This app don't always apply such sharpening, have adjustable mapping range and can do histogram equalization.

[Dave92F1]

I'm more worried about the outlines that I've seen on some images that make it look like some sharpening is being done.

I think you may looking at images that are merged visible and IR thermal. FLIR cameras have a feature (patented, I think, so other vendors don't offer it) where they simultaneously take a visible image (ordinary camera) and IR image from sensors right next to each other.

Then the software fuses the data into one image - the visible image is used for luminance (black-and-white), usually heavily edge sharpened. The IR image is used for color. This lets you see more detail in the image, esp. seeing what the thermal image is overlaying.

Of course you can turn that off and just look at the IR image.

Example: https://ibb.co/4VGJ8pg

[NinetySix]

The hti app does have enough sharpening to make it look a bit like msx (and slightly lower resolution) is being applied, but 'tis absolutely not the case 😉

Otherwise I agree 100% all of the above posts. Therm viewer does provide a much less molested image in general, and the extra NUC (eraser mode) can be quite handy for getting rid of the slight lens aberration that isn't always apparent any way.

I use both apps depending on mood (tho I use the modified version posted on here that removes the hti watermark). As offensive as the hti sharpening can be, it does handle dynamic range a bit better than therm viewer, YMMV.

The extra colour profiles in thermviewer at pretty handy, "enhanced" is great for scenes with very little temperature variation, turns pitch black night time into detailed B&W CCTV 🙂 "edge detect" is like a focus tuning tool, adjust till the desired object has a single outline and focus is nailed.


Whatever flavour you prefer, it sounds like there's little doubt that this is the camera for you, every box ticked and negatives not such a problem 😉 as for durability, the USB is the weak point, especially hanging off the USB port of a phone... I actually had to replace the plug and fpc connector on mine for $45us 😲 although the replacement seems to be holding up better, luck of the draw or slightly improved design? YMMV, again.

Get a short right angle USB-C extension cable and sort out some kind of holder or clamp to put it on the back of the phone, 3d printing probably the best option there.


Also, a lot of the stills posted on here and in my gallery can look a little average, it's bloody hard to tap the photo button in either app without causing camera shake, but the videos don't suffer from anything of the sort.

Cheers

[Nogtail]

Basically, you can get the raw sensor data out of your HT301 or Xtherm and do anything you want with some coding.

To my eye, the official apps for them do apply excessive processing to the image. I used a third party app (https://thermviewer.com/ , for a fee) with my Xtherm camera. This app don't always apply such sharpening, have adjustable mapping range and can do histogram equalization.

This sounds perfect, I was planning on having a bit of fun with the software anyway.

@blueskull Would you recommend the HT 301 or the Xtherm?

[Nogtail]

I personally ended up with the T3Pro, just because I don't like the HTi logo that can't be turned off (without third party apps). XInfrared logo also can't be turned off, but it's prettier IMO.
Otherwise they are very similar devices with a good price gap.
Unless you have such OCD, I'd go for an HTi. As for me, I'm medically diagnosed to have OCD by a licensed psychologist and I just can't put up with it.

It sounds like you can modify the HTI app to remove the logo, so in that case the 301 definitely seems like a better buy for me. I prefer the look of the Xtherm models and as you say - their logo is a lot nicer, but nobody seems to have them in stock.

[haizaar]

This thread is such a time saver! I'm on a similar quest and was as well blown away by photos posted by NinetySix.

Couple of questions please

1. Where do buy those? Anything local in Oz or just Ali?
2. Is there any PC software, preferably for Linux?
3. Do they work with newer Samsung such as Galaxy S10? Asking because I saw SeekThermal Compact pro struggles with is.

Thanks in advance!

[NinetySix]

This thread is such a time saver! I'm on a similar quest and was as well blown away by photos posted by NinetySix.

Couple of questions please

1. Where do buy those? Anything local in Oz or just Ali?
2. Is there any PC software, preferably for Linux?
3. Do they work with newer Samsung such as Galaxy S10? Asking because I saw SeekThermal Compact pro struggles with is.

Thanks in advance!

I got mine direct from hti.com, though hopefully they aren't participating in the trade war we've stumbled into. Came from Hong Kong but they call it China, loyalists I suppose.

I got mine going on my windows 10 laptop using the free software by Joe C I think it is, pretty sure it's a sticky in this forum, but with it rigidly hanging out of the USB port (no extension cable) I didn't put much time into it, could be stacks of potential for somebody keen enough.

No troubles whatsoever with a Google pixel 3a and a Huawei mate 20 Pro, both on Android 10, however (and they are up front about it) the version of the app they have on the play store will only work on Android 9, for 10 you need to download the apk they link you to on their website..... But do yourself a favour and skip straight to the version you can find a link to on here where the hti watermark has been ditched, otherwise you're giving up about $50 worth of pixels, maybe more!

And while you got the wallet out... Grab thermviewer from the play store, us$30 I think for the in app licence purchase, with stacks of options and pallets the hti app doesn't have, and generally a less molested image. Some things the hti app is just better at tho, such as the shot showing blood vessels in my gallery (the grey scale still with upside down logo, but the hands video was thermviewer, iirc).

Hooroo

[haizaar]

Thanks for the follow up!

I got mine direct from hti.com

You mean from here: https://hti-instrument.com/products/ht-301-mobile-phone-thermal-imager?variant=31662719369331?

And while you got the wallet out... Grab thermviewer from the play store, us$30 I think for the in app licence purchase, with stacks of options and pallets the hti app doesn't have, and generally a less molested image. Some things the hti app is just better at tho, such as the shot showing blood vessels in my gallery (the grey scale still with upside down logo, but the hands video was thermviewer, iirc).

Is this the one? - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bitera.ThermViewer
Asking because it's free contrary to what you say... or will it ask for money when I connect the camera?

[Nogtail]

Thanks to everyone I'm now the proud new owner of a HT-301.

1. Where do buy those? Anything local in Oz or just Ali?
2. Is there any PC software, preferably for Linux?
3. Do they work with newer Samsung such as Galaxy S10? Asking because I saw SeekThermal Compact pro struggles with is.

I got mine from https://hti-instrument.com/products/ht-301-mobile-phone-thermal-imager I managed to get a 10% discount using the code "OFF10" but they seem to have a 5% discount running at the moment that prevents it from working. I got stung with around $200 of import fees so be prepared.

I'm not sure about the Galaxy S10, but it works smoothly on my ageing OnePlus 3T after I enable OTG storage in the settings.

Is this the one? - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bitera.ThermViewer
Asking because it's free contrary to what you say... or will it ask for money when I connect the camera?

I think it gives you some sort of trial for a few days then makes you buy a license from within the app.

[haizaar]

I got stung with around $200 of import fees so be prepared.

How does it work, technically? DHL collects it? Did they charge anything above GST?

I think it gives you some sort of trial for a few days then makes you buy a license from within the app.

That's sneaky! Thanks for the heads up.

[NinetySix]

I got lucky with not having to pay GST on mine, pretty sure they under declared? Where I wasn't so lucky ordering a dirac DSP from minidsp (in HK too) with a correctly declared price of 900usd, within about a week of getting the hti back in October. DHL sent me an email saying "pay up fella, then we'll deliver it" with the dsp. That was about $235 from memory, so probably about $200 if they snag your 301.

$30usd is a fair chunk of coin for an app, but on the bright side, at least you can get some functionality to confirm it will work with your phone. Also, the licence you're paying for is associated with the camera serial number, not your phone, so you can install the app on as many devices as you like, but obviously you can only plug the camera into one of them at a time. I share the 301 with the Mrs (she just disappeared out into the back yard with it at just after midnight, this our idea of a rocking Saturday night 😉) and it would have been a bitter pill to swallow if we both had to buy us$30 licences.

A short while ago the Mrs demonstrated why she prefers the hti app... point the camera at the base of a deciduous tree, then tilt up to look at the sky... With the hti app you can have night sky in the shot and still see some detail on the tree. With thermviewer, the moment the night sky comes into view the "exposure" swings wildly and the tree is totally blown out due to the large difference in temperature between the sky and anything else, no matter what contrast/enhancement mode or setting you've got it on. YMMV. You need both apps, no two ways and it 😎

[haizaar]

I got lucky with not having to pay GST on mine, pretty sure they under declared? Where I wasn't so lucky ordering a dirac DSP from minidsp (in HK too) with a correctly declared price of 900usd, within about a week of getting the hti back in October. DHL sent me an email saying "pay up fella, then we'll deliver it" with the dsp.

Just to clarify, do they charge anything beyond GST?

Yeah, totally happy to pay $30 for the app. After all, its less than 5% of the expensive hardware cost, so why not to enjoy it fully.

[Nogtail]

How does it work, technically? DHL collects it? Did they charge anything above GST?

The camera was sent with TNT (FedEx) and they sent me an email asking for payment. GST was around $120, quarantine and inspection was around $40 and import declaration was $50.

I haven't tried ThermViewer but the default app can capture some pretty decent images apart from the logo:

[NinetySix]

Thanks to everyone I'm now the proud new owner of a HT-301.

Nice, hopefully it's matching or exceeding your expectations. After more than 6 months with a 301, I can say that the novelty is still quite strong!

The transparency of optically opaque plastics (bin bags, HDPE bottles etc) should keep you busy for a good couple hours

[haizaar]

Thank you guys for the info again.

Now need to decide whether to order from AliExpress and wait for a month but probably pay only GST and have some buyer protection; or get into mercy of TNT/DHL. Will update this thread with eventual outcome.

[DHhung002]

Thanks everyone for the very informative thread!!!

Quick questions:

1. Does the HTi 301 draw a lot of power from the phone? I'm pretty new when it comes to thermal cameras, was very surprised that Seek drains my phone really fast.

2. Does Seek Thermal Pro have a 9Hz version and also a 15Hz? I looked in up on Amazon seems only showing the 9Hz in item description.