Author Topic: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal  (Read 758506 times)

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Offline Bud

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2075 on: October 02, 2015, 06:14:14 am »
I find it really disturbing that Seek is using fake images to showcase their products.

May be it is time to create another thread on debunking their hi res BS images. What they do is clearly deceptive.
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Offline Uho

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2076 on: October 02, 2015, 06:26:37 am »
Here you can see the real image quality of the Seek Reveal... wooow, they've managed to reduced the noise
On the small screen, the noise is not visible. They do not show the saved image. Because it will be bad.
 

Offline frenky

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2077 on: October 02, 2015, 06:35:47 am »
I find it really disturbing that Seek is using fake images to showcase their products.

May be it is time to create another thread on debunking their hi res BS images. What they do is clearly deceptive.
They love to use this two (fake) images:


(Look at the grass near the pool on the bottom right of the image?)
You would need 100,000 $ thermal camera for capturing such details...
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2078 on: October 02, 2015, 07:05:01 am »
You would need 100,000 $ thermal camera for capturing such details...
I wouldn't say that, I'm pretty sure any high quality 640x480 camera could capture that for only $20k or so.

However I have a problem with this scene too (50 seconds)

https://youtu.be/S-KhPE5ca6Y?t=50s

If you look carefully, you can see the "thermal image" is actually just blobs of colour motion tracked to the guy's face. Especially look at the cold spot on the nose (stays the same shape) and the outline of his face (the tracking seems to lag behind his motion just slightly). You would've thought that they could've at the very least use a actual thermal camera...
 

Offline all_repair

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2079 on: October 02, 2015, 07:25:00 am »
You would need 100,000 $ thermal camera for capturing such details...
I wouldn't say that, I'm pretty sure any high quality 640x480 camera could capture that for only $20k or so.

However I have a problem with this scene too (50 seconds)

https://youtu.be/S-KhPE5ca6Y?t=50s

If you look carefully, you can see the "thermal image" is actually just blobs of colour motion tracked to the guy's face. Especially look at the cold spot on the nose (stays the same shape) and the outline of his face (the tracking seems to lag behind his motion just slightly). You would've thought that they could've at the very least use a actual thermal camera...
I think the sale and marketing run way ahead of production nowsaday.  To reduce inventory, warehouse, etc , many are selling and taking in payment even before the first piece is even rolled out of the production floor.  Needless to say, they have no actual camera onhand when they are preparing the sale material. 
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2080 on: October 02, 2015, 07:37:22 am »
Sorry but i do not buy that. Engineering and QA would have plenty of images to provide to Marketing.
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Offline Redshift1340

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2081 on: October 02, 2015, 08:49:39 am »
Sorry but i do not buy that. Engineering and QA would have plenty of images to provide to Marketing.
Agreed, their marketing department is making a choice to use simulated images.  Though I'm surprised they're not obligated to post a small disclaimer to say that they are.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 04:13:02 am by Redshift1340 »
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2082 on: October 02, 2015, 11:06:04 am »
Simulated images were very common on pocket LCD TV's due to the difficulties of photographing an LCD panel (moire patterns) but there was always a small warning adjacent stating that they were simulated.

I have no time for deceptive advertising. If SEEK Thermal are not honest with their customer base, they will be seen as treating customers with contempt. That isn't generally a good idea in this world of social media.
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2083 on: October 05, 2015, 01:32:03 am »
Tom's guide posted a "Hands On" with the reveal. http://www.tomsguide.com/us/seek-reveal-rugged-thermal-camera,news-21665.html



The image quality doesn't appear improved at all (also the screen isn't rectangular, the edges are curved for whatever reason).

Looks like the advertising of "Screen Resolution" has already fooled a review site... I wonder how many customers think the sensor is 320x240 now too....

Quote
The sensor has been upgraded to a larger 320 x 240-pixel resolution with a max range of 500 feet.

Come on seek... you're intentionally putting the resolution of the LCD front and centre for the express purpose of misleading customers into thinking that's the sensor resolution.  :-- :-- :-- I was fooled at first too until I spent some more time reading the specifications.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 01:48:35 am by encryptededdy »
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2084 on: October 05, 2015, 06:08:15 am »
Aaannnddd... they just disabled commenting on all of their videos on YouTube. There were some comments there accusing them of false advertising etc.

Also look at these pictures on their Amazon page for the reveal.



I don't even... those image look to be beyond 320x240, probably 640x480? Also ironically the glow / red colour pallete they use in all of their "sample images" isn't even available in the Seek app... so it's literally impossible to take these images with the seek, even if we ignore the issues with resolution.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2085 on: October 05, 2015, 06:30:53 am »
The first two images look almost like "simulated thermal" to me.

The third image has been posted in full here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg768051/#msg768051

I'd guess it's from a high-quality 640x480 camera.
 

Offline Redshift1340

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2086 on: October 05, 2015, 06:32:37 am »
I totally agree that they're misrepresenting their product.  There's always got to be some wiggle room for marketing, but they are starting to take it over the edge a little.  I too was almost fooled into thinking the Reveal was a new 320x240 sensor, until I read the fine print so to speak.  A few others on this thread were too, and if we were, you can bet your average-joe consumer will most definitely be.  They're gonna be pretty let down and angry when they realize their Reveal's quality doesn't come close to those "simulated images" posted online and on their box.  I foresee some customer backlash and a few returns in Seek's future unfortunately.
 

Offline frenky

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2087 on: October 05, 2015, 06:50:59 am »
I've collected a bunch of Seek's promotional images that are from high end 640x480 thermal camera or from photoshop. 








« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 06:53:56 am by frenky »
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2088 on: October 05, 2015, 07:04:10 am »
Yeah... a few of those (footsteps and deer) are clearly from photoshop. The rest do appear to be actual thermal images, abeit from a 640x480 camera.

Edit: Full res pics below.








Maybe it's just me but I haven't see a 4 megapixel thermal imager before that perfectly lined up the thermal and visible images pixel to pixel.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 07:23:23 am by encryptededdy »
 

Offline Redshift1340

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2089 on: October 05, 2015, 10:58:04 am »
Did anyone else notice how extremely fake that sink image is?  Both the visible light and the "thermal" version.  Just have a look at the direction the floor tiles are oriented compared to the angle of the wall... Talk about cut and pasting.  All the elements in that picture look like they're from separate sources and were slapped together  :palm:
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2090 on: October 05, 2015, 01:54:14 pm »
The laundry sink one in the last series of images seems to be absolute BS. It can be seen in the normal image the sections of the pipe are made of same white plastic. But in the thermal image the pipe section that goes into the wall is not heated at all and is at ambient temperature. And the thermal gradient is abrupt on that connection.
In the other image you can see shadows of the cabinet handles on the cabinets doors, and a reflection of the carpet on the wall in front of it.
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Offline tomas123

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2091 on: October 05, 2015, 04:05:03 pm »
 :-DD  :-DD  :-DD



Offline -jeffB

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2092 on: October 05, 2015, 04:05:15 pm »
Wow, I never really paid attention those images. If that "footprints" image were truly thermal, I'd be tearing open those cabinets to the right to see what was so hot inside them -- and then trying to find what was making the floor so cold directly beneath them.  ::)
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2093 on: October 05, 2015, 04:29:56 pm »
I do not think it would be possible to get such crisp thermal images of footprints. Footprints fade away fast, the ones at the picture front would become faded blobs before the person would reach the far side of the room.
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Offline Bud

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2094 on: October 05, 2015, 04:37:02 pm »
:-DD  :-DD  :-DD




Nice. Compare the bushes running along the barn to the right of the door on the two pictures.
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Offline -jeffB

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2095 on: October 05, 2015, 05:01:06 pm »
Not to mention the mirrored detail along the bottom margin, and the big cloud of erased detail to the left...
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2096 on: October 05, 2015, 11:40:56 pm »
So this is the old Seek website where most of these images were used. Note the footer at the bottom. I think it's reasonable to assume that any disclaimers would be included in the footer (after all, their copyright notice is).



As I scroll through, the footer remains the same.



However it's only when I reach the really bottom does the "images are simulated" disclaimer appear.





If you have a footer that doesn't move with the page, it's entirely reasonable to assume that all of the disclaimers that normally appear at the bottom of the page are included in it (and the footer shouldn't ever change). You shouldn't have (one of the most important) disclaimers appear in this fixed footer only when the bottom of the page is reached. Additionally, even if someone scrolls to the bottom of the page, they probably won't notice it as it's assumed that the footer doesn't change.

I'm probably getting this thread a bit off topic, but I think it's pretty bad that seek uses these "simulated" images that aren't even remotely close to the real thing. While for people who are vaguely familiar with Thermal imaging it is clear that the pictures are fake / not produced with a $200 device, do note that the Seek is targeted at people who may have never seen / used thermal imagers. In fact, I come across a lot of people who still think you can do thermal imaging by removing the IR Cut filter in front of a CCD - to them a 4 megapixel thermal image coming out of a $250 device doesn't seems impossible at all - after all, some cheap $100 point & shoot could probably do that. And the problem I think is that those people can be easily mislead by Seek's "simulated images" of this kind.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 11:46:24 pm by encryptededdy »
 

Offline Redshift1340

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2097 on: October 06, 2015, 02:34:13 am »
I figured that for legal purposes a disclaimer would be included somewhere, and when companies do this they're usually small and hard to spot at first, but that trick with the scrolling footer is very sneaky.  Very bad form. And you're right encryptededdy, their customer base is made up of primarily first time thermal camera users that have only seen thermal images in Predator or Desert Storm smart bomb footage on CNN.  Seek knows it too.  I just hope Seek is working on their next imaging sensor and that it'll be released somewhat soon, I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do with a little more time and polish.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2098 on: October 06, 2015, 03:07:06 am »
Simulated thermal images? Why would you ever do that? It's like selling 320x480 webcam (of the normal, visible-light variety) and using 16MP DSLR images in the site, with a small "images are simulated" disclaimer. Unless your product is absolutely horrible... :-\
Is the pseudoholographic display also "simulated"...? :o
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2099 on: October 06, 2015, 05:23:56 am »
A Seek style "thermal" image . A cat just returned from a walk, and since it was a cool October night the footprints are colder than the floor.



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