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Products => Thermal Imaging => Topic started by: mikeselectricstuff on August 19, 2014, 02:21:00 pm

Title: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 19, 2014, 02:21:00 pm
http://www.cbs46.com/story/26314662/seek-thermal-announces-it-will-bring-next-generation-thermal-imaging-to-mass-market (http://www.cbs46.com/story/26314662/seek-thermal-announces-it-will-bring-next-generation-thermal-imaging-to-mass-market)

Apparently aiming for a $250 smartphone add-on according to this
http://online.wsj.com/articles/smartphone-add-ons-offer-thermal-imaging-1408396425 (http://online.wsj.com/articles/smartphone-add-ons-offer-thermal-imaging-1408396425)

I suspect Flir may pay for late delivery of Flir One...



Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 19, 2014, 03:00:41 pm
Another article :
http://www.pacbiztimes.com/2014/08/18/infrared-firms-face-off-in-smartphone-market/ (http://www.pacbiztimes.com/2014/08/18/infrared-firms-face-off-in-smartphone-market/)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: Fraser on August 19, 2014, 07:21:02 pm
Yay ! Higher resolution than the FLIR One  :-+

Raytheon are a potent force in thermal imaging cores. This looks like a very interesting development.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: ixfd64 on August 19, 2014, 07:32:15 pm
2014: the year of thermal imaging?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 19, 2014, 07:39:08 pm
2014: the year of thermal imaging?
Clearly - Flir is probably the only contender for this year's Christmas gadget market, but by next year it could be a bloodbath at the low end though.
Up til now it looked like Flir and Maybe Heimann, but if a 32K pixel array comes in at a similar cost they could both be toast.
Seek Thermal must have been rubbing their hands with joy at the Flir One delay - I;m sure this announcement was strtegic to coincide with the Flir One release - will be interesting to see where they're at in the development cycle.
Interesting times.....
 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: ixfd64 on August 19, 2014, 07:57:07 pm
The good news is that if Seek Thermal does come out with its product as promised, other companies like FLIR, Fluke and Testo would have to drastically drop their prices to stay in the market.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: Fraser on August 19, 2014, 10:21:11 pm
I am interested in these developments because for many years the use of thermal camera technology has been hampered by cost and size issues. If a thermal camera core can be provided at a decent price and reasonably small you could see it used in affordable CCTV applications has automotive applications. Audi, BMW and others have already seen advantages in thermal camera based animal/human warning systems.

I personally would be happy to buy low resolution, low frame rate cameras with so-so sensitivity as that would still be useful in many applications.

Let us hope that this is indeed the start of a new era in affordable compact thermal camera cores  :-+

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 19, 2014, 10:54:40 pm
The other interesting aspect is at what point will the US manufacturers manage to persuade their leaders that restrictions on higher framerates are harming business more than they are protecting anyone from anything.
Applications like firefighting need a decent framerate, and once the kit becomes sufficiently small and cheap it will be impractical to control.

 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: Fraser on August 19, 2014, 10:58:37 pm
Another interesting low resolution thermal camera project that may be of interest to some. It uses the same resolution that IRISYS have used in the past to pretty good effect in thermal application. At a projected $99 its certainly affordable if you already own an Ipad.

http://hackaday.com/2014/07/24/a-better-cheaper-smartphone-thermal-imager/ (http://hackaday.com/2014/07/24/a-better-cheaper-smartphone-thermal-imager/)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: Fraser on August 19, 2014, 11:09:57 pm
Hey FLIR have been giving thermal cameras away at press conferences !

Take a look here:

http://www.sourcesecurity.com/news/articles/co-9756-ga-co-5188-ga-sb.14647.html (http://www.sourcesecurity.com/news/articles/co-9756-ga-co-5188-ga-sb.14647.html)

A small Lepton based demo camera !
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 19, 2014, 11:29:03 pm
Hey FLIR have been giving thermal cameras away at press conferences !

Take a look here:

http://www.sourcesecurity.com/news/articles/co-9756-ga-co-5188-ga-sb.14647.html (http://www.sourcesecurity.com/news/articles/co-9756-ga-co-5188-ga-sb.14647.html)

A small Lepton based demo camera !
Very cute - maybe start emailing a few journos to make an offer...!
Shouldn't be hard to build something like this once you get your hands on a Lepton... ;) 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 19, 2014, 11:39:18 pm
My prediction for the hot toy of Xmas 2015   ;D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: Dongulus on August 19, 2014, 11:57:49 pm
Clearly - Flir is probably the only contender for this year's Christmas gadget market, but by next year it could be a bloodbath at the low end though.

Flir and the IR sensors group at Raytheon share the same business park. Could turn into an actual blood-bath.  :D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: frenky on August 28, 2014, 10:01:15 am
Seek Thermal has put out some new info...
Interview with CEO: http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/3751903491001/low-price-thermal-imagery-camera-for-smartphones/#sp=show-clips (http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/3751903491001/low-price-thermal-imagery-camera-for-smartphones/#sp=show-clips)

New photos:
(https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/10550129_725229750882932_293816199574996585_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/10515138_725229754216265_7835435996655897670_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/10636829_725229757549598_58487097861832088_o.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/10655418_725229784216262_904506920148575463_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 28, 2014, 10:35:58 am
Suspicious lack of any pics of real product though - they're claiming to be launching in Autumn, so why no product images ?
 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: David Hess on August 28, 2014, 07:31:27 pm
I wonder if ubiquitous inexpensive public access to thermal cameras will undo the US Supreme Court decision that law enforcement use qualifies as a search requiring a warrant.

Since the police did not have a warrant when they used the device, which was not commonly available to the public, the search was presumptively unreasonable and therefore unconstitutional.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo_v._United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo_v._United_States)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: StevenH on September 12, 2014, 09:58:59 pm
Some information are going to be published:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4wP-sO4OR-oJ:addmart.weebly.com/store/p1/Seek_Thermal.html+&cd=1&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4wP-sO4OR-oJ:addmart.weebly.com/store/p1/Seek_Thermal.html+&cd=1&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr)
SEEK THERMAL store is not opened but can be found in Google cache page
What is mentionned :
Seek Thermal. SKU: $249.00. $249.00. $. Unavailable. Thermal imaging camera for use with iPhone 5+ and Samsung Galaxy 5
3D rendering of the case is in attached.
To be followed...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: StevenH on September 25, 2014, 07:42:03 am
product launch planned for today. I just have received this message from SEEK THERMAL team :

"
It is almost time to SEE THE UNSEEN!  You are now among the first in the world to know that we will be officially launching at 9AM ET on 9/25/14.

That means you also have a chance to be among the first to get your very own Seek Thermal product.  Go to thermal.com on 9/25 to check out our all-new website, and find out how Seek Thermal can give you the power to SEE THE UNSEEN!

Thanks!
Seek Thermal Team

"

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: frenky on September 25, 2014, 09:50:47 am
They've put new video on YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRjOsdtZnL4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRjOsdtZnL4)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 25, 2014, 10:41:53 am
They've put new video on YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRjOsdtZnL4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRjOsdtZnL4)
resolution & framerate on that looks somewhat higher than what the product is likely to have - I bet they used a high-end Flir for that video
 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: frenky on September 25, 2014, 11:04:16 am
I guess we will see later today on their site what actual images look like.
Promised 32K sensor should have around 200px*160px which is quite better than flir one...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 25, 2014, 01:21:11 pm
Info is up now but US/Canada only ordering - if anyone is interested in helping me get hold of one, please PM me.

206 x 156 Array
32,136 Thermal Pixels
12 µ Pixel Pitch
Vanadium Oxide Micro Bolometer
Chalcogenide Lens
36º Field of View
Magnesium Housing
Long Wave Infrared 7.2 – 13 Microns
-40C to 330C Detection
< 9Hz

oh, and $199
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: frenky on September 25, 2014, 01:36:38 pm
Really disappointing that they don't ship to Europe. |O
(I tried to order trough shipito.com but order on thermal.com didn't go trough because my credit card address was different from shipping address...)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: imau on September 25, 2014, 01:44:56 pm
They've put new video on YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRjOsdtZnL4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRjOsdtZnL4)
resolution & framerate on that looks somewhat higher than what the product is likely to have - I bet they used a high-end Flir for that video

Yep, the video seems 30fps while they state sensor refresh rate is <9hz.

I don't like this kind of marketing.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on September 25, 2014, 03:41:50 pm
Real image from this module:
(http://recodetech.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/katie-copy.png)
http://recode.net/2014/09/25/seek-thermal-camera/ (http://recode.net/2014/09/25/seek-thermal-camera/)

AndroidPolice has some videos:
http://www.androidpolice.com/2014/09/25/hands-on-with-the-199-seek-thermal-smartphone-infrared-camera-yes-really-actually-this-is-amazing/ (http://www.androidpolice.com/2014/09/25/hands-on-with-the-199-seek-thermal-smartphone-infrared-camera-yes-really-actually-this-is-amazing/)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 25, 2014, 04:25:37 pm
Just had a reply to an email enquiry - apparently not shipping outside US & Canada until next year!
..of course we don't know if/when they are actually shipping in US/Canada?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on September 25, 2014, 04:58:56 pm
I've read in one of the online articles that they will start shipping in two weeks.
At the same time they will put apps on google play and apple store.

Later in the fall the module will also be  available on amazon.
(At that time it will be possible to get it trough mail forwarding companies such as shipito.com )

Next year they will also release API for developers to make their own apps.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: ixfd64 on September 25, 2014, 06:11:25 pm
Really disappointing that they don't ship to Europe. |O
(I tried to order trough shipito.com but order on thermal.com didn't go trough because my credit card address was different from shipping address...)

You could try asking a trusted member of this forum to order it for you instead.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on September 25, 2014, 06:20:17 pm
Well my enthusiasm is somewhat gone now.
I'll wait for a few months to see what first customers say about it...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mjlorton on September 25, 2014, 06:23:03 pm
This is becoming a very interesting area...

At one of our recent Charged Conversation meetups (http://www.meetup.com/Charged-Conversation/ (http://www.meetup.com/Charged-Conversation/)) Chris Gammell and myself met Erik Beall (https://hackaday.io/hacker/22940 (https://hackaday.io/hacker/22940)).

He has developed the Hema-Imager (http://www.hemaimaging.com/ (http://www.hemaimaging.com/)) which is another low cost cell phone / tablet thermal imager. He ran a Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ebeall/hemaimager-accessible-thermal-imaging-for-smart-de/posts/945690 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ebeall/hemaimager-accessible-thermal-imaging-for-smart-de/posts/945690)) but missed his goal. He is going to have another attempt.

I'll be doing an interview with Erik in October and another video where he talks about the design and shows how it's put together. There's a great deal that's happened in the background that I hope he'll be able to talk about...

There's another related product release at the end of this month that I will cover.

Mike (mikeselectricstuff), if you want to get your hands on a Seek thermal imager...let me know and I'll do whatever I can to assist.

Cheers,
Martin.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sacherjj on September 25, 2014, 08:05:25 pm
I just ordered the Android version.  We have found the FlirOne very usefully for many tasks, with the exception that you need an iPhone. 

I didn't get a shipping estimate, but the confirmation emails had this:

Quote
Thank for your order! Due to the extremely high demand for our products, we are currently experiencing a 5-7 business delay in the shipment of your order. In order to minimize transit times, items may ship separately from multiple locations, and all shipped items may not be reflected on this confirmation.

Scene temp range is -40C to 330C.  It will be interesting to see what information is available when looking at hot plate reflow and other soldering.  It can detect high enough to see it.  The FlirONE is 0C to 100C.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on September 25, 2014, 10:08:01 pm
I also ordered the Android version, and to answer to eneuro's comment in:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/m-thermal-imager-real-or-fake/msg519628/#msg519628 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/m-thermal-imager-real-or-fake/msg519628/#msg519628)

Quote
however it is a pitty it works only under Android?

They do have an IPhone version as well, same price $199 and it should work even with the new IPhones not stuck to the 5s like the Flir module.



Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Legit-Design on September 25, 2014, 10:08:29 pm
repost from the other thread?
Seek Thermal USB thermal camera for Android (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snkDuZacVbM#)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snkDuZacVbM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snkDuZacVbM)

anyways, looks like their noise reduction isn't as advanced as the Flir (One) Lepton Mike was showing off.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: Alexei.Polkhanov on September 25, 2014, 10:43:39 pm
The other interesting aspect is at what point will the US manufacturers manage to persuade their leaders that restrictions on higher framerates are harming business more than they are protecting anyone from anything.
Applications like firefighting need a decent framerate, and once the kit becomes sufficiently small and cheap it will be impractical to control.

Totally true. I found someone selling on ALI Express last week - "high res" 640x480 sensor assembly, 70FPS, "only"  :) $900 each. 10 were available. 
384×288 sensors at 50FPS are easily available - shipping worldwide. I am wondering if these can be overclocked to 60FPS. I searched last year - there were none for sell with these frame rates. I can only imagine what will be available next year! I think Chinese company that makes/sells them is called "JIR" ... .

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/M700-thermal-image-sensor-cheap-thermal_1899090531.html?s=p (http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/M700-thermal-image-sensor-cheap-thermal_1899090531.html?s=p)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on September 25, 2014, 10:53:57 pm
We'll see in Fall,But isn't it Fall yet?

Bit confused about why some are calling it a pre-order, seems like a regular order to me, but as long as I get it in time to winterize my house, I'm good.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on September 25, 2014, 10:55:02 pm
Ordering is now back online.

Got one on the way
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 25, 2014, 10:57:39 pm


Totally true. I found someone selling on ALI Express last week - "high res" 640x480 sensor assembly, 70FPS, "only"  :) $900 each. 10 were available. 
Almost certainly a bogus listing

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on September 25, 2014, 10:58:52 pm
Order number 72X here
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming..
Post by: Alexei.Polkhanov on September 25, 2014, 11:26:25 pm


Totally true. I found someone selling on ALI Express last week - "high res" 640x480 sensor assembly, 70FPS, "only"  :) $900 each. 10 were available. 
Almost certainly a bogus listing
I am not familiar with Chinese market. Would they create bogus listing just to check the demand? Does it mean they pretty much ready to start shipping or may not even close to it? This one looks like a real deal to me for example: http://hbjir.en.alibaba.com/product/618597547-214483688/Infrared_IR_Thermal_imaging_Camera_Core_Module.html (http://hbjir.en.alibaba.com/product/618597547-214483688/Infrared_IR_Thermal_imaging_Camera_Core_Module.html) or http://hbjir.en.alibaba.com/product/637449470-214483688/zoom_camera_module.html (http://hbjir.en.alibaba.com/product/637449470-214483688/zoom_camera_module.html)

I have seen 384×288 sensor but did not ask guy who was showing it how much he paid. He brought it from a "trip to china for entrepreneurs" organized by Vancouver business school few months ago.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on September 25, 2014, 11:31:32 pm
Infrared as in night vision can be achieved with NIR sensors IR lighting and visual spectrum filters very cheap. I know they are calling those Chinese sensors Thermal, but maybe they are bending the truth of what they are capable of, or maybe there is a cheaper technology that truly does thermal, but unless they show what the sensor sees, it's probably bogus.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 25, 2014, 11:36:41 pm
A lot of ALIexpress sellers are chancers who place speculative listings, and then try to obtain items if they get an order, and if they can't, then cancel the order, and though you get a refund a couple of weeks later, you can lose out if the exchange rate has changed in the meantime.

Or they ship something totally different, and you then have to try to get redress through Aliexpress's dispute resolution, which IME is a joke - 7 weeks to be promised a partial refund after the seller admitted they'd sent the wrong item, claimed it was equivalent (despite them still listing both the ordered and shipped items) and admitting they won't sell the correct item in 1-offs. And also out of pocket from import duty on higher cost item.

Always read actual seller feedback (ignore percentages etc. - these are misleading), and steer clear of any that have no or bad feedback
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on September 25, 2014, 11:37:50 pm
For example the last link you posted shows the range as:
8~12 um

That is farther than NIR but not really FIR it's in between and closer to NIR than FIR within the  MWIR range:

http://www.edmundoptics.com/technical-resources-center/optics/the-correct-material-for-infrared-applications (http://www.edmundoptics.com/technical-resources-center/optics/the-correct-material-for-infrared-applications)

How good will it be for imaging? not sure, it's good for spectroscopy (Edit: but used with lasers)

Edit2:
Actually according to wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared)
it belongs to LWIR (long wave infrared) good to measure human body heat, still I would like to see an image of the sensor before buying it.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Hypernova on September 26, 2014, 05:07:02 am
The other interesting aspect is at what point will the US manufacturers manage to persuade their leaders that restrictions on higher framerates are harming business more than they are protecting anyone from anything.
Applications like firefighting need a decent framerate, and once the kit becomes sufficiently small and cheap it will be impractical to control.

Totally true. I found someone selling on ALI Express last week - "high res" 640x480 sensor assembly, 70FPS, "only"  :) $900 each. 10 were available. 
384×288 sensors at 50FPS are easily available - shipping worldwide. I am wondering if these can be overclocked to 60FPS. I searched last year - there were none for sell with these frame rates. I can only imagine what will be available next year! I think Chinese company that makes/sells them is called "JIR" ... .

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/M700-thermal-image-sensor-cheap-thermal_1899090531.html?s=p (http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/M700-thermal-image-sensor-cheap-thermal_1899090531.html?s=p)


For a legit Chinese company Dali is probably it: http://www.dali-tech.us/products/lt3-lt7-series-50.html (http://www.dali-tech.us/products/lt3-lt7-series-50.html)

Personally I'm surprised that the Chinese cameras aren't more popular.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on September 26, 2014, 06:46:57 am
OK. Moved from other Mu topic.

206x156 array, it's real, and only $199. This one could be a game changer.
Probably it does not have any reliable calibration between frames like Flir, but is looks quite compact for some apps, however it is a pitty it works only under Android?
(http://s5.postimg.org/yt095f3ab/seek_02_100453853_large.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/yt095f3ab/)

There are some developers tools  http://www.thermal.com/developers.html , so maybe it will be possible to run this thing under Linux, like I used to use other cameras with OpenCV for automatic image processing in one of my projects.

Maybe, it could be possible to run this Seek Thermal on old fashion x86 PC using this Android-x86 4.4 (http://linux.softpedia.com/get/System/Operating-Systems/Linux-Distributions/Android-x86-53904.shtml)
Quote
"Key features include a KMS (Kernel Mode Setting) enabled Linux kernel 3.10.x LTS, Wi-Fi support, battery status, V4l2 camera support, G-sensor, bluetooth, suspend, resume, audio though ALSA, and mouse wheel support."

It looks like this Android-x86 Just Might Make a Good Linux Desktop Alternative (http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/80145.html) is in active development and usable, so just downloading this CD iso file to test this Android version on old PC and turn it into live thermal video wi-fi streaming device with OpenCV postprocesed video in real time  8)

There is Android OpenCV (http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/80145.html) , so this Seek thermal camera looks guite interesting for the moment and if it had V4l2 camera support it could be maybe possible to run it under Linux and capture each video frame under OpenCV without Android overhead?

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on September 26, 2014, 07:06:59 am
however it is a pitty it works only under Android?
IPhone as well, also $199.

Pitty it doesn't work on my blackberry ;)
kidding will use the wife's phone or my NVidia Shield 1st gen.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: amyk on September 26, 2014, 09:43:23 am
Those Chinese sensors are made by http://suncti.com/en/products.aspx (http://suncti.com/en/products.aspx) and appear to be an "Uncooled amorphous silicon FPA" which is slightly different from the vanadium-oxide in the FLIR Ones.

Presumably these are not subjected to the same export restrictions since they're not US-developed.

I also found this one selling on TaoBao - what appears to be a 384x288 for  <$500 USD: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=38681766798&spm=2014.21554143.0.0 (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=38681766798&spm=2014.21554143.0.0)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on September 26, 2014, 10:59:45 am
ITAR regulations apply across teh Worlf fopr particpating states, namely thiose who signed up to the Wassenaar Arrangement:

http://www.wassenaar.org/ (http://www.wassenaar.org/)

China is not shown as a member of the arrangement so presumably can do as they like, BUT if you are an OEM in a country that is part of the Wassenaar Arrangenement, your products will be ITAR liable even if you use the Chinese sensors. Its all about the product capability and technology and not about where it is actually manufactured.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on September 26, 2014, 11:03:44 am
About shipping of Seek Thermal module. This is from facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Seek-Thermal/628554970550411 (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Seek-Thermal/628554970550411)

[user]when are you guys shipping?

[Seek Thermal] Hi Dat, The cameras will ship when the apps go live in their respective app stores. We estimate that that will be 1-2 weeks for Android and shortly thereafter for iOS.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: firehopper on September 26, 2014, 01:17:35 pm
About shipping of Seek Thermal module. This is from facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Seek-Thermal/628554970550411 (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Seek-Thermal/628554970550411)

[user]when are you guys shipping?

[Seek Thermal] Hi Dat, The cameras will ship when the apps go live in their respective app stores. We estimate that that will be 1-2 weeks for Android and shortly thereafter for iOS.

so that means any shipping option other then the standard isnt worth it :) unless you really want it the next day after they start shipping.
 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on September 26, 2014, 02:22:21 pm
so that means any shipping option other then the standard isnt worth it :) unless you really want it the next day after they start shipping.

I did select standard because it was free shipping :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on September 26, 2014, 07:00:47 pm
They do have an IPhone version as well, same price $199 and it should work even with the new IPhones not stuck to the 5s like the Flir module.
I'd like to use this thermal camera just like other cameras under Linux or better Linux based wiki: Robot Operating System (ROS) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Operating_System), so it is interesting if this Android version could be detected under Linux and if I coud be able to catch its output frames using OpenCV like in video below (FLIR with ROS module) it would be nice, while I do not like even Android, while it is not fully open source OS.
FLIR thermal camera ROS driver node (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9hzr9iz8Go#ws)

anyways, looks like their noise reduction isn't as advanced as the Flir (One) Lepton Mike was showing off.
I think It might depend what that app does inside software and what alghorithms were used, while Flir might use diffrent ones and maybe has much better hardware with black body built in calibration between frames.
It is time to check this http://thermal.com/developers.html and see what they ofer for post image processing.
Probably they just developing one of such apps, which I could write myself dedicated to do specific thermal image processing task needed in this project If I had access to raw data from this camera via USB...unless some kind of specyfic protocol to setup Seek Thermal internals hardware is needed.

It looks like USB OTG is needed for this thermal camera.
Quote
"The phone or tablet must have support for USB On The Go, however, or the camera dongle won't work"
Lets see what guys from Seek Thermal support will say about running this thing under Linux or ROS control, while FLIR  have such support as we could see in video above  ;)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 26, 2014, 08:05:36 pm
Lets see what guys from Seek Thermal support will say about running this thing under Linux or ROS control, while FLIR  have such support as we could see in video above  ;)
I suspect that to minimise costs, Seek will rely a lot more heavily on software in the host to do processing than the Flir One does, but as it uses USB, it should at least be possible to extract the raw sensor data.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on September 26, 2014, 08:46:42 pm
I would suggest you sign up for the Seek developer SDK, I ordered the camera and signed up for SDK access but no news on either.

I know they are waiting for the google app store to have the app before they ship and the ETA is 2 weeks. I would think the SDK will follow later.

I have a TrimSlice with a Tegra 2 that can run both Android and different flavors of Linux, including L4T (Linux for Tegra) I might have a play if I receive the SDK.

But a Jetson K1 devkit might be better (Linux only right now) because it has 192 CUDA cores that can be used for OpenCV.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 26, 2014, 09:53:28 pm
I would suggest you sign up for the Seek developer SDK, I ordered the camera and signed up for SDK access but no news on either.

I know they are waiting for the google app store to have the app before they ship and the ETA is 2 weeks. I would think the SDK will follow later.

I have a TrimSlice with a Tegra 2 that can run both Android and different flavors of Linux, including L4T (Linux for Tegra) I might have a play if I receive the SDK.

But a Jetson K1 devkit might be better (Linux only right now) because it has 192 CUDA cores that can be used for OpenCV.
the software they've shown so far seems to going out of its way to avoid looking like Flir's MSX. I'm sure people will write apps to remedy that...!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on September 26, 2014, 10:29:35 pm
I have a USB analyzer so I will MITM the android/TIC connection and get some trace for you all. I hate software and I'd rather talk to the chipset directly but maybe someone will find a use for it.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on September 27, 2014, 03:21:55 am
According to twitter they are launching Android app and commencing shipment in about 1 week.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on September 27, 2014, 11:29:58 am
But a Jetson K1 devkit might be better (Linux only right now) because it has 192 CUDA cores that can be used for OpenCV.
It looks really nity and I can use this thing in one of the projects even without thermal camera, while with its CUDA accelearted OpenCV I will be able probably detect objects in the scene using cheap classic camera and make movements detections in real time  :-+
The question is which is operating temperature range of this small board and if it can work at temperatures close to 0*C, but probably lower ambient temperatures might be issue for this Seek Thermal camera too  :-\
Additionally this board has of course I2C support and even serial port, so my old I2C 5kV optoisolated PCB can be used for testing without any major design changes I guess.

However, this The NVIDIA® SHIELD™ tablet (http://shield.nvidia.com/gaming-tablet/) with similar powerfull support for OpenCV and 8" HD 1920x1080 screen and Android (I hope with CUDA support) might be straightforward way to change this Seek Thermal USB gadget into usable thermal imagining thing and I have another project where OpenCV with thermal camera and scene highlighted by IR light could do this job in realtime  8)
(http://s10.postimg.org/pt9m64akl/Nvidia_Shield_Tablet_with_CUDA.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/pt9m64akl/)

It has builtin cameras, so at a price of around $300 by adding $200 for thermal we get really interesting possibilities, while this thing can transfer gaming video to another monitor, etc.  :o

When compared new iPhone 6 marketing spam from here: http://www.apple.com/iphone-6/ (http://www.apple.com/iphone-6/) with its big screen size 4.7" It was difficult to stop laughing :-DD
Quote
iPhone 6 isn’t simply bigger — it’s better in every way. Larger, yet dramatically thinner. More powerful, but remarkably power efficient.
It looks like crappy toy for childrens to play old fashion tetris  ;D

BTW: Anyone knows patent number of this Flir's MSX technology just to see what is behind this-sophisticated hardware and video capture sequence, I guess?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on September 27, 2014, 05:18:23 pm
To my American friends:

Would anyone be willing to order one Seek for me and ship it over to the Czech Republic (EU)?

Thanks in advance :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on September 27, 2014, 05:36:27 pm
@eneuro

NVidia has an automotive version of the Jetson K1, not sure on pricing or temperature specs:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/jetson-automotive-development-platform.html (http://www.nvidia.com/object/jetson-automotive-development-platform.html)

They also have a visual computing module for cars, no idea on temperature specs either:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/visual-computing-module.html (http://www.nvidia.com/object/visual-computing-module.html)

Yeah that tablet they have looks cool, only problem is that not many game publishers are going to port full fledge games to android,but that might(will) change in the future.

For example at work my video card it's just a gx440 with a bit under 500 CUDA cores, but it beats the K1 in graphics bandwidth by not much. Still you can power the K1 with a battery :)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: imau on September 27, 2014, 06:11:05 pm
AirVR + Seek Thrrmal = predator view.

AirVR kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/768618350/airvr-virtual-reality-for-ios (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/768618350/airvr-virtual-reality-for-ios)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Alexei.Polkhanov on September 27, 2014, 07:31:19 pm
That is what those Chinese sensors are good for IMHO - see through Oculus Rift kind of gadget. If sensor can handle 60FPS - there will be enough frame rate to switch between left/right eye and enabling stereo vision. I am not sure if it is possible to switch between two lenses using some kind of liquid Crystal shutter device, but I assume same technology that used in 3D glasses can be used here. I think thermal vision sensors are still too big and heavy to fit two in one headset.

As many here already pointed out if all components are sourced in China there is no need to worry about stupid export restrictions - ship anywhere you want around the globe. Oculus Rift Predator edition! I know some guys from Montreal who have designed Virtual Reality headset like that with regular cameras: http://www.reuters.com/article/slideshow/idUSKBN0HB1YD20140916#a=3 (http://www.reuters.com/article/slideshow/idUSKBN0HB1YD20140916#a=3). If things will go well Predators will have to source their vision gear on this planet!  8)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on September 27, 2014, 07:51:07 pm
I have yet to see the output image from one of those Chinese sensors, let alone video of them at 60FPS
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 27, 2014, 07:53:26 pm
That is what those Chinese sensors are good for IMHO - see through Oculus Rift kind of gadget. If sensor can handle 60FPS - there will be enough frame rate to switch between left/right eye and enabling stereo vision. I am not sure if it is possible to switch between two lenses using some kind of liquid Crystal shutter device,
Nope
Quote
but I assume same technology that used in 3D glasses can be used here. I think thermal vision sensors are still too big and heavy to fit two in one headset.
No, just rather expensive
Quote
As many here already pointed out if all components are sourced in China there is no need to worry about stupid export restrictions - ship anywhere you want around the globe.
I'd be surprised if China didn't have similar restrictions
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Alexei.Polkhanov on September 27, 2014, 08:08:34 pm
That is what those Chinese sensors are good for IMHO - see through Oculus Rift kind of gadget. If sensor can handle 60FPS - there will be enough frame rate to switch between left/right eye and enabling stereo vision. I am not sure if it is possible to switch between two lenses using some kind of liquid Crystal shutter device,
Nope
Well, Nvidia does it pretty well. I have them at work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_shutter_3D_system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_shutter_3D_system) so why not do it in reverse ?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on September 27, 2014, 08:31:44 pm
That is what those Chinese sensors are good for IMHO - see through Oculus Rift kind of gadget. If sensor can handle 60FPS - there will be enough frame rate to switch between left/right eye and enabling stereo vision. I am not sure if it is possible to switch between two lenses using some kind of liquid Crystal shutter device,
Nope
Well, Nvidia does it pretty well. I have them at work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_shutter_3D_system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_shutter_3D_system) so why not do it in reverse ?

Because L/MWIR is not manipulable with the same technologies as visible light is.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Alexei.Polkhanov on September 27, 2014, 08:49:10 pm
Good point, I did not think of that. So common liquid crystal shutter will be transparent to IR? I cannot seem to find good source in this. What about DMD? I mean Digital Micro Mirror Devices? (http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/analog/dlp/overview.page (http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/analog/dlp/overview.page) Maybe that is the solution for switching between lenses?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on September 27, 2014, 09:17:42 pm
Good point, I did not think of that. So common liquid crystal shutter will be transparent to IR? I cannot seem to find good source in this. What about DMD? I mean Digital Micro Mirror Devices? (http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/analog/dlp/overview.page (http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/analog/dlp/overview.page) Maybe that is the solution for switching between lenses?

But the mirrors have to reflect the IR as well, here is a link I posted in page 3 about IR materials:
http://www.edmundoptics.com/technical-resources-center/optics/the-correct-material-for-infrared-applications (http://www.edmundoptics.com/technical-resources-center/optics/the-correct-material-for-infrared-applications)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on September 28, 2014, 05:41:17 am
Good point, I did not think of that. So common liquid crystal shutter will be transparent to IR? I cannot seem to find good source in this. What about DMD? I mean Digital Micro Mirror Devices? (http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/analog/dlp/overview.page (http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/analog/dlp/overview.page) Maybe that is the solution for switching between lenses?

As long as there's glass involved, thermal IR will be reflected right off the surface.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Bud on September 28, 2014, 06:47:51 pm
Warning: When wearing that stupid contraption on your head, do not do this:

 |O 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Alexei.Polkhanov on September 28, 2014, 07:17:49 pm
Well it allow you to augment reality and add a virtual wall that you can bang your head on, virtually. ;D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: tom66 on September 29, 2014, 07:35:40 pm
If someone has a Seek Thermal device they decide they don't want and can ship to the UK, let me know. I'll pay above MSRP including shipping.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on September 29, 2014, 08:54:46 pm
Well, Nvidia does it pretty well. I have them at work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_shutter_3D_system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_shutter_3D_system) so why not do it in reverse ?
I will never ever wear active shutter 3D glasses, while only wiki: Polarized 3D system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarized_3D_system) makes sense in my opinion.
3D active shutter 3D glasses needs battery or even worse wires and are often hard to use for prolonged periods of time.
How to choose the best 3D glasses (active or passive) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DntXU6ruDr8#ws)
I try remove even any flickering lights at home, while this kind of light even at 50Hz mains is easy to detect when objects are moveing (one can see a few images of the same thing catched by 100Hz light power bursts) and it is nasty that in XXI century we have such poor lighting and have to make investigations in shops before buying 230VAC LED lamps or other light sources with constant current to ensure there is no flickering  :palm:
Tesla had great idea to transfer energy to homes using AC voltage especially 3 phase, but using 1 phase  to directly power light bulbs without convertion to filtered nice not flickering light might be a huge mistake and I do not believe in that human eye will not see diference when >25Hz frequency is used, because this is not this what human eye was used to see during so many years of its evolution-Sun light.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 02, 2014, 10:42:55 pm
Interesting - according to this article Seek has a shutter - Due to the low cost I'd assumed it would have dispensed with this.
http://t.co/uAahGT58pm (http://t.co/uAahGT58pm)
Quote
It makes a constant clicking noise as it runs. That’s the sound of the thermal imager automatically recalibrating itself


Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 02, 2014, 11:04:52 pm
Some detail on the Raytheon sensor would be great, but it looks like we will have to wait until a teardown to see what lives inside. I am still very impressed with what Seek have achieved. The $199 asking price is way lower than I would have expected at this point in time. The images appear a little noisy for my liking but for the asking price and the resolution provided, its a bargain.

Of course the Seek also provides Mu with the perfect excuse for the failure of their product. How long after the Seeks release before Mu close their camera project stating that their amazing new innovative technology has been overtaken by recent developments. Seek must be using those easily available and massively overstocked  (so cheap) missile guidance thermal camera cores that they mentioned  :-DD
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 02, 2014, 11:22:39 pm
I have just seen that FLIR have released a new medium and high resolution miniature TIC core, named the MEON. The cores are getting very compact, very quickly  :)  I would love the 640 model and some decent optics to drive it.

Take a look here:

http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/view/?id=64979 (http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/view/?id=64979)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: heavybarrel on October 03, 2014, 01:08:54 am
Muon, and honestly, FLIR can take a flying leap after their bs with the ex series. Competition is pretty stiff and Flirs overpriced gear is soon to round off their corner of the market. At the very least the cost of a quality piece will be cut in half in relation to what it is now.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 03, 2014, 02:46:09 am
Ordered another just now, order # 309X.

Six days ago my last order was 79X.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: zapta on October 03, 2014, 07:44:46 am
Ordered another just now, order # 309X.

Six days ago my last order was 79X.


797?  Prime numbers will be shipped first.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 03, 2014, 10:44:27 am
Yay, I am on the list for a Seek thanks to the kindness of a fellow Forum member  :-+

I am a self confessed thermal camera geek and the SEEK looks like one heck of a neat little camera and I already own a Motorola MOTO G so ready for action when the little beauty arrives.

I am hoping that the SEEK camera technology will be a little like the USB Dongle SDR's that are used by many radio enthusiasts..... if it gets enough of a following it may develop over time into a very clever bit of kit to rival the more expensive offerings from FLIR etc. If the image processing is done in the smart phone, and the SEEK is 'just' a raw data provider, it will be a very versatile little unit with massive potential.

I do not normally order items that are unreleased but on this occasion I am willing to risk $200 and the reviews have proven that it actually exists and appears to work...... unlike the lack of reviews for the Mu effort !

Happy Days  :)  Now to wait patiently to see how long it will take for SEEK to fulfil the large order book.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 04, 2014, 06:50:53 am
The seem so be some progress...
Twitter:
we hope to have approval for the app store by EOD today and our first shipments are leaving the factory right now!
---
We will likely be taking orders in US$ from the EU by next week!
---
BIG DAY! The first Seek thermal Android cameras are on the dock and ready to ship to customers! #seetheheat #thermal
---

https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=seekthermal&src=typd
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: firehopper on October 04, 2014, 10:45:30 am
yup! the android app is live in the appstore, dont know about the apple app.. I dont have a apple iphone.. I have a samsung s3, have to wait till I have enough spare funds to order one for me..


The seem so be some progress...
Twitter:
we hope to have approval for the app store by EOD today and our first shipments are leaving the factory right now!
---
We will likely be taking orders in US$ from the EU by next week!
---
BIG DAY! The first Seek thermal Android cameras are on the dock and ready to ship to customers! #seetheheat #thermal
---

https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=seekthermal&src=typd
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 04, 2014, 10:57:16 pm
Link to app:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal

It doesn't support my Nvidia Shield, but it does support my wife's S4, So I guess she will have to go to work without her phone :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 05, 2014, 01:46:49 am
Link to app:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal

It doesn't support my Nvidia Shield, but it does support my wife's S4, So I guess she will have to go to work without her phone :)

Just tried installing and it says "This app is not available in your country".
I tried using Market Helper to make it think it was in US but same thing.

I know nothing about Android - is it be possible for someone in the US to download it to a file that I could install outside of the Google Play store?
 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 01:53:30 am
I have side loaded apps before but it was a long time ago. There is a PC Android emulator that pretty much allows you to load any application and then you could get the apk and side load it, but it's been so long since I've done it that I don't recall the actual steps.

I'll look into it but no promises.

Edit: the program is BlueStacks

http://www.bluestacks.com/ (http://www.bluestacks.com/)

Instructable on how to use it:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Bluestacks-as-a-repository-of-apps-for-sideloading/?ALLSTEPS (http://www.instructables.com/id/Bluestacks-as-a-repository-of-apps-for-sideloading/?ALLSTEPS)

A proxy might do it, i'm going to try but again no promises :)

Also, since it doesn't support my Nvidia Shield I can use the apk to side load it on it.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: amirm on October 05, 2014, 02:10:23 am
I ordered one this morning and  just installed the app on my HTC DNA phone.  I ran it and it is asking me for my login info.  Gave it the same thing I put in the web site and it is not working!  Let's hope they fix this.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 02:35:00 am
Well I can't do it yet, My PC is in the back office via a 2nd router and the appstore is not happy with that.

But the seek thermal app did show up in the store.

I have to do some rewiring to try again.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: c4wd on October 05, 2014, 04:03:57 am
I ordered one this morning and  just installed the app on my HTC DNA phone.  I ran it and it is asking me for my login info.  Gave it the same thing I put in the web site and it is not working!  Let's hope they fix this.

Your account associated with your purchase is not the one associated with the application. You have to register.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 05, 2014, 04:14:01 am
Has anybody picked apart the APK yet? If we're lucky its mostly java... ( :palm:
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 05:14:08 am
Mike, PM sent.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Stonent on October 05, 2014, 06:03:59 am
Link to app:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal)

It doesn't support my Nvidia Shield, but it does support my wife's S4, So I guess she will have to go to work without her phone :)

Just tried installing and it says "This app is not available in your country".
I tried using Market Helper to make it think it was in US but same thing.

I know nothing about Android - is it be possible for someone in the US to download it to a file that I could install outside of the Google Play store?
 

There you go, you'll have to go into your developer options in your android settings and enable installing non market apps.

An APK is similar to a JAR, you can add .zip to the end and get inside it.  There's a free utility called baksmali https://code.google.com/p/smali/ (https://code.google.com/p/smali/) that can decompile the files inside the APK back to Java.

http://we.tl/Ac7dhsVVss (http://we.tl/Ac7dhsVVss)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Stonent on October 05, 2014, 06:20:12 am
There's references inside the APK to JCodec which is an open source Java implementation of several codecs, that might be what they're using for saving videos.  Also references to Sanselan which is an Apache licensed bit of code used to output several still image formats.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 06:23:03 am
I used APK Studio and placed a decompiled zip and the original APK here:

http://www.miguelvp.com/ForMike/ (http://www.miguelvp.com/ForMike/)

Hopefully I won't get in trouble for this :)

There are two versions libSeekware.so one for armeabi and another for armeabi-v7a under the lib directory and a lot of smali files in
seek_thermal\smali\com\tyriansystems

That library looks pretty interesting.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Stonent on October 05, 2014, 06:33:52 am
I beat you by 20 minutes to the APK  >:D  I'm looking inside with Baksmali but your files seem bigger so I'lll look at those also. 
I saw in part of the code about commanding the shutter to close.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Stonent on October 05, 2014, 06:36:18 am
In here \seek_thermal\unknown\com\tyriansystems\Seekware
There's a .bin file for an LPC43xx which is an NXP Cortex M4/M0  It is 32KB so I assume it is the firmware for the camera.

Nice chunk of text inside it:

Code: [Select]
WARN:  iAP:  ERROR:  Halting at   ms
 ,... Link Init
 Unable to parse iAP Packet - Invalid packet length (expected at least 9 bytes)
 Raw Packet -  Unable to parse iAP Packet - Invalid Start-Of-Packet (expected 0xFF 0x5A)
  Ctrl= SYN +ACK +EAK +RST +SLP  PAN=  SID=  (Invalid)
 Unable to parse iAP Packet Data Payload - Invalid payload size
 Payload Checksum= RequestAuthenticationCertificate RequestAuthenticationChallengeResponse AuthenticationResponse AuthenticationFailed AuthenticationSucceeded StartIdentification IdentificationInformation IdentificationAccepted IdentificationRejected CancelIdentification IdentificationInformationUpdate StartExternalAcessoryProtocolSession StopExternalAcessoryProtocolSession StartPowerUpdates PowerUpdate StopPowerUpdates Unexpected session parameter size - Expected at least 4 bytes
 ParamID=  Len= Poorly structured session packet - Unable to continue parsing.
 PowerMgrState_SlowSystemInitialization -  PowerMgrState_EnumeratingUSB -  PowerMgrState_ResponsiveSleep -  PowerMgrState_SleepMode -  PowerMgrState_RunMode -  Performing system reset
 WDT Warning
 WDT Tiimeout
 Setting up delayed event
 ÿU îBad packet header
 com.thermal.SeekThermal Target Platform: Received iAP Link Init echo from host.  Platform determined to be iOS.
 Invalid packet
 ÿUÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿëTarget Platform: iAP IC not responding.  Guessing Windows.
 Cmd=  (Unknown request)
 Request handler returned with error
 Request has no handler
 USBD Suspend Event
 USBD Resume Event
 USBD Configure Event
 USBD Reset Event
 Implementation Error - Not enough memory for USB stack
 Reseting EP1 IN
 Implementation Error - Invalid queue count
 Sending queued IN request
 iAP To Dev
 IN request has timed out -  Resetting EP1 IN
 Implementation Error - USBD failure
 Waiting for packet ACK
 iAP To Acc
 Previous ExIAP packet was ACK'd
 Some other packet was ACK'd!
 iAP Acc - INVALID!  Ignoring
 USB OUT data received - More expected
 Pending USB OUT request
 BytesQueued= Ran out of buffer queue items
 Buffering IN request PSN= Invalid request size -  Sending error response -  Unknown request  Implementation Error - SUBI_LastError not set by VendorClass_HandleInRequest
 Implementation Error - IN Request handler failed but there's no way to inform the host.  Stalling EP (may cause app lock-up).
 Implementation Error - SUBI_LastError not set by VendorClass_HandleOutRequest
 Implementation Error - No IN or OUT request handler for request
   `  ÿ          8œ*** iAP Packet To Accessory (Pending) ***
 USB OUT data received (Pending) - More expected
 S1€Ý ·JùäÅ”¾ÔInvalid image processing mode
 Cannot toggle shutter when in RUN and CHOP1/CHOP2/CSATIME
 Invalid parameter
 Invalid parameter 0
 Invalid parameter 1
 Invalid parameter 2
 GetFirmwareInfo index= Invalid firmware information index
 Invalid data size
 Invalid attempt to dynamically switch target platform
 Invalid data page
 Canceling queued IN requests.  Previous image was likely interrupted.  IMPLEMENTATION ERROR!
 Invalid memory region
 Invalid backdoor key
 Erasing flash at  Flash erase failed
 Programming flash at  Flash write failed
 Flash program validation failure
 Updating RDAC in RAM
 Updating VDAC in RAM
 Updating CMD in RAM
 Updating factory settings
 Done
 Invalid shutter polarity
 Erasing flash sector at  Programming flash sector at  Flash write failure
 Done Invalid checksum
 Writing memory region -  New Image= Invalid image
 Received image is a valid firmware image
 Flash erase failure
 Programming firmware image
 Image programming verified
 Erasing image select flash sector at  Writing new image select flash sector
 Image select flash write verified
 Programming image select flash sector
 Invalid image size
 Canceling queued IN requests.  IMPLEMENTATION ERROR!
 Request   does not have a defined IN EP action handler
 Request sent during FW init
 ), Time= Request not served in SLEEP mode
 Request not served in RUN mode
 Dir=IN, Req=  (  does not have a defined OUT EP action handler
 Dir=OUT, Req= Ignoring request to non-zero interface
 Target Platform: Received vendor class request.  Guessing Windows.
 GetErrorCode GetChipID ToggleShutter SetShutterPolarity GetShutterPolarity SetBITDataFeatures GetBITData SetOperationMode GetOperationMode SetIPMode GetIPMode SetDataPage GetDataPage SetCurrentCmdFeatures SetCurrentCmd GetCurrentCmd SetDefaultCmdFeatures SetFeaturedFlashData GetDefaultCmd SetVDACFeatures GetVDAC SetRDACFeatures SetRDAC GetRDAC GetFirmwareInfo GetFeaturedFirmwareData SetFeaturedFirmwareData CompleteMemoryUpgrade BeginFirmwareUpgrade ImageData TargetPlatform SetFirmwareInfoFeatures SetFactorySettingsFeatures GetFeaturedData ResetDevice SetRamDataFeatures ---| HardFault |---
 Time:  [Stack Frame]
  R0=  R1=  R2=  R3=  R12=  LR=  PC=  PSR= [FSR/FAR]
  CFSR=  HFSR=  DFSR=  AFSR= [Misc]
  MMFAR=  BFAR=  LR/EXC_RETURN= Implementation Error
 StartStreaming
 ResetState
 StopStreaming
 Processing is not keeping up with data TX.  Buffer overrun is imminent.
 Invalid frame header:  Sync Lost: Restarting sensor interface
 Unexpected frame index number.  Expected   but got  Inconsistent Chip ID
    6nStarting sensor comm check
 Sensor comm check complete
 Initializing USB system
 Waiting for USB enumeration on Port 0...
 BETA UNIT    Canceling all queued USB requests
 Reseting all OUT and IN endpoints
 Entering SLEEP
 Entering RUN mode
 Sensor is not responding
 USB connected
 USB connection removed
 Seek Thermal PIR206 Firmware  (RELEASE-IMAGE)
 ------------------------------------
 Target Platform: Guessing IOS
   
   $ @ @  ` ¦  À Ã  à à        @@ BB bb ‚‚ ¢¢ ÂÂ ââ  ""
 ##   i%ÿÿÐè    Thermal Camera  LW-AAA   Seek Thermal, Inc.   ABC123456789  1.0.0.0 
 99.28 
 ® ®ê  ®     d     ( iAP2    -
      com.thermal.pir206.1     (  com.thermal.SeekThermal   en  
en    S e e k   T h e r m a l ,P I R 2 0 6   T h e r m a l   C a m e r a i A P   I n t e r f a c e *c o m . t h e r m a l . p i r 2 0 6 . 1
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 06:37:55 am
To be honest I did send mike a pm with the link one hour earlier than your post but chickened out making it public.

Seems like the tryansystems folders are the most interesting ones :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Stonent on October 05, 2014, 06:45:17 am
To be honest I did send mike a pm with the link one hour earlier than your post but chickened out making it public.

Seems like the tryansystems folders are the most interesting ones :)

\seek_thermal\unknown\com\tyriansystems\Seekware\simulation\raw

Possible data format samples?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 06:46:57 am
there are sample images on the folder where raw lives under LUT
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 05, 2014, 06:54:29 am
Possible data format samples?

I think you're right.

File size is: 64.896 bytes

Resolution:206x156=32136
2 bytes for each temp value: 64.272 bytes
and the rest 624 bytes is probably checksum or something...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Stonent on October 05, 2014, 06:56:58 am
\seek_thermal\smali\com\tyriansystems\Seekware\enums
This has some info about the pixel data.

Also I noticed in the chunk of text earlier it looks like it has the firmware for the Android and IOS in one, but also references Windows, so maybe a Windows phone version is/was planned or maybe they wrote an application for Windows that they used for testing and debugging, or maybe they have plans to release it for a Windows 8 tablet.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 05, 2014, 07:09:54 am
I tried to get something reasonable out of the raw format:
2f 1f->1f2f->7983
34 1f->1f34->7988
81 1f->1f81->8065
8c 1f->1f8c->8076
4b 1f->1f4b->8011
50 1f->1f50->8016
4a 1f->1f4a->8010
66 1f->1f66->8038

Not sure if I succeded...  ;D
It would be easy with matching image...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 07:42:18 am
I fired up VisiQuest (signal processing software) and imported the raw data as unsigned short
156 width and 206 height, then equalized the image and scale it by 3 to make it 3 times bigger

This is 000098.data 3 times bigger than it is.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111367;image)

The thing is that 156 x 206 x 2 bytes is 64272 bytes, and the file is 64,896 bytes So there are an extra 624 bytes there, so an extra 3 rows of data (159x206?) but it seems there are some markers within the data.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 08:03:13 am
So the image format is 208 by 156 unsigned short (2 bytes per pixel)
There are 2 extra pixels that are not part of the sensor, here is image 000098.data :)
I blew it up x3 so it's more visible, I gotta find a format that supports 16bits grey scale, I think tiff can do it.

Btw this is equalized, I'll post one without equalization but I think it's going to be too dark. It's completly dark, I will have to subtract some offset and scale it so equalization will have to do for now.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111369;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 05, 2014, 08:11:42 am
Link to app:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal)
It doesn't support my Nvidia Shield, but it does support my wife's S4, So I guess she will have to go to work without her phone :)
I'm not Nvidia Shield user yet, but found something like this and it looks like in the case of ethernet adapter connection order matters?
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/765599/shield-tablet/shield-tablet-and-otg-y-cable/ (https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/765599/shield-tablet/shield-tablet-and-otg-y-cable/)
Quote
"Plug in the Charging Cable first (the controller brick and cable that came with your SHIELD are recommended).
Then plug in the USB to Ethernet Adapter"
Maybe something similar with this "Shit Thermal"  :palm:


Just tried installing and it says "This app is not available in your country".
I do not know how this Google Play works but maybe they detect someones IP WHEN you download app and modify somehow this apk on the fly? So they let you download this, but then during instalation they display this stupid country message?
It could be interesting if someone from  US made checksum eg. MD5 on this instalation file and compare it with MD5's of file taken from UK..

I know nothing about Android - is it be possible for someone in the US to download it to a file that I could install outside of the Google Play store?
For example this VPN http://www.strongvpn.com/ (http://www.strongvpn.com/) can teleport you to US with speed of light easy  :-DD
I've used it for a few years, while I do not like stupid marketing spam targeted to my country users, so by choosing UK or US IP Google thinks I'm in UK or US, while I can be everywhere  8)

Another interesting test could be powering down home router and disable internet connection during instalation of this Shit Thermal apk?
If I had one I'd also turn on TCP/IP network scanner analyser and save logs from time when you try install this bullshit apk than see if it contacts with external servers during this instalation.
Maybe they try to guess your country based on IP during instalation too?

BTW: Hopefully it looks like $15 IR thermometer in custom DIY will let me examine and map temperatures I'm interested in easy.
Today this gadget word is one big bullshit  and Shit Thermal is another example :--
I will connect customized $15 IR thermometer to Nvidia Shield and they will not tell me what to buy to use their product...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 08:16:55 am
Eneuro, I side loaded it to my Shield, so I'm ready for it, it's not supported by the play store, but it's has the requirements so now wait and see.
Btw I have the 1st Gen Shield not the new tablet, the game controller with the flip screen one.

Edit: I'm pretty sure it's supported by the new Shield Tablet.

and we are already looking at the contents of the inners of the apk.

Btw the raw folder is a movie with 100 frames.
I'll see if I can actually create the video with my signal processing software.


Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: kxenos on October 05, 2014, 08:18:40 am
I fired up VisiQuest (signal processing software) and imported the raw data as unsigned short
156 width and 206 height, then equalized the image and scale it by 3 to make it 3 times bigger

This is 000098.data 3 times bigger than it is.

The thing is that 156 x 206 x 2 bytes is 64272 bytes, and the file is 64,896 bytes So there are an extra 624 bytes there, so an extra 3 rows of data (159x206?) but it seems there are some markers within the data.
64896 is 156 x 208 x 2. Can you do that? You already did.  O0
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 05, 2014, 09:33:36 am
To be honest I did send mike a pm with the link one hour earlier than your post but chickened out making it public.

Seems like the tryansystems folders are the most interesting ones :)
Thanks  - installed OK after second attempt!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 05, 2014, 09:40:43 am
I would expect that there are some dummy rows and/or columns for reference /cal purposes. Maybe also some other data inserted along with the image pixels - e.g. temperature, frame count etc.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 05, 2014, 09:41:49 am
So the image format is 208 by 156 unsigned short (2 bytes per pixel)
There are 2 extra pixels that are not part of the sensor, here is image
CRC perhaps.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 09:54:29 am
Let's see if the gif animates here :)

I couldn't upload it because it was over 2MB

(http://www.miguelvp.com/ForMike/Animation1.gif)


I did equalize each image independently so the changes in signal are not what the camera will do, I expect it to be more stable in intensity variation

Also I took the liberty to use 10 fps

I'm not sure this is a thermal image, I should invert it, can the water reflect heat?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 10:19:25 am
This is the negative of the one above

(http://www.miguelvp.com/ForMike/Animation2.gif)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 10:31:04 am
Btw "APK Studio" can be use to repack the apk after you are done modifying it.

The zip is really an APK Studio project
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: kxenos on October 05, 2014, 10:55:18 am
since the overhead is just 2 bytes per line I would expect just 1 extra pixel. Also, I think it;s not CRC but has something to do with max or average temperature in the line because if you see the animated gif image you can see that on the upper lines where the image is generally bright the additional pixels are black.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 10:59:30 am
The overhead is 4 bytes (2 pixels) but they don't seem to have any calibration data, maybe it's a buffer fetching thing.

Also on the "APK Studio" here is the link:
https://apkstudio.codeplex.com/
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 11:23:23 am
So I applied the following palette:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111387;image)

and it does look thermal, not sure about the water reflecting heat, but maybe it does.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111389;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 11:31:59 am
I was expecting something more like this video:

OPGAL - EYELITE640 very-long-range thermal imaging camera at sea (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RUCX31A9DM#)

Applying the same palette:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111393;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: firehopper on October 05, 2014, 12:23:39 pm
This is the negative of the one above

(http://www.miguelvp.com/ForMike/Animation2.gif)

nice job sir! I like the inverse one better, but very nice job. now I can make sense of the image in your other post :) its some boats on water
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: amirm on October 05, 2014, 02:25:16 pm
I ordered one this morning and  just installed the app on my HTC DNA phone.  I ran it and it is asking me for my login info.  Gave it the same thing I put in the web site and it is not working!  Let's hope they fix this.

Your account associated with your purchase is not the one associated with the application. You have to register.
Thanks.  Figured it out after posting that message :).  Should have realized they were using a third-party ecommerce system.

For those anxious to try it, don't be :).  The app doesn't do anything other than show sample stills.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 05, 2014, 03:56:56 pm
I'm not sure this is a thermal image, I should invert it, can the water reflect heat?
Why not to use oryginal app and grab those thermal images than compare with raw data?

Only by hacking this thing you are able to read anything-oryginal software does not work?

If it worked it could be easier make own trained LUT based on this output from oryginal software, while maybe some specyfic kind of LUT is needed to get correct pixel temperature  ::)

BTW: This movie is from images catched at night or with day light present?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 05, 2014, 04:08:59 pm
BTW: This movie is from images catched at night or with day light present?
Probably daylight due to reflection from water, though could be reflection from clouds
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 05, 2014, 04:12:29 pm
So after looking at the LPC4300 firmware my best guess is:

1. Sensor outputs raw unscaled image data in digital form. (Analog is also posible but less likely)
2. ARM run USB stack and slurps raw sensor data across into the USB stack, or on the Apple version, the iAP (Lightning) interface chip.
3. Android app provides post FX.

There is a small API that indcates this first firmware is preliminary and expected to be upgraded soon.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 05, 2014, 04:37:28 pm
One SEEK just popped up in my eBay search alert for US$300 starting. Are they shipping yet or is it yet another eBay arsehole?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 05, 2014, 05:22:53 pm
BTW: This movie is from images catched at night or with day light present?
Probably daylight due to reflection from water, though could be reflection from clouds
OK, but are you talking about those simulation raw data from this folder (Linux unzip extracts easy everything of course  >:D)
Quote
$ ./seek_thermal_v1.0.0.apk/com/tyriansystems/Seekware/simulation/raw
or you captured I mean used this thermal camera and working on data obtained from real world?

You should disassemble also this 32 bit ARM binary too  >:D
Quote
libSeekware.so: ELF 32-bit LSB shared object, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, not stripped
There are two versions of libSeekware.so in folders: ./seek_thermal_v1.0.0.apk/lib/armeabi and ./seek_thermal_v1.0.0.apk/lib/armeabi-v7a .
Bigger text version packed with zip from armeabi attached to this post.
Quote
$ cat libSeekware.so |bin2hex >armeabi_libSeekware.so.txt
LUT calls are defined there to native calls from Java
(http://s5.postimg.org/q1c8eb59f/lib_aemeabi_lib_Seekware_so.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/q1c8eb59f/)
like this sample LUT_hotmetalblue from ./seek_thermal_v1.0.0.apk/com/tyriansystems/Seekware/simulation/LUT/Hot Metal Blue.jpg
so probably aplied such LUT function ro raw data gives results like this, but we needed much more samples to be able train/guess for example this hot metal blue LUT
(http://s5.postimg.org/3qodec7z7/Hot_Metal_Blue.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3qodec7z7/)
while this is coded in this ARM binary libSeekware.so.
Tried Linux objdump to disassemble this ARM like I used to do with Atmel AVR binary, but probably passed wrong parameters and I haven't got assembler source .. so far  >:D

BTW: One can ask this guy, while such folder name left in this libSeekware.so (from attached file).
(http://s5.postimg.org/vs2es1d9f/armeabi_lib_Seekware_NOAH_documents_so.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/vs2es1d9f/)
It is a pity there is no telephone numbers to Noah- it could be asier to hack this ARM binary with his support :-DD
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 05, 2014, 05:29:59 pm
Code: [Select]
.plt:00007088 ; File Name   : C:\Users\Boris\Desktop\seek_thermal\lib\armeabi-v7a\libSeekware.so
.plt:00007088 ; Format      : ELF for ARM (Shared object)
.plt:00007088 ; Needed Library 'libstdc++.so'
.plt:00007088 ; Needed Library 'libm.so'
.plt:00007088 ; Needed Library 'libc.so'
.plt:00007088 ; Needed Library 'libdl.so'
.plt:00007088 ; Shared Name 'libSeekware.so'
.plt:00007088 ;
.plt:00007088 ; EABI version: 5
.plt:00007088 ;
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'crtbegin_so.c'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'SeekwareNativeLib.c'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'luts.c'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'colorize.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'palettes.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'temperature.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'badpix_corr.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'badpix_detect.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'gain_coef.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'gain_corr.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'median_5.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'median_avg.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'offset.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'temp_coef.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'temp_corr.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'thermography.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'alpf.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'peaklimit.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'asbnuc.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'bilateral.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'kalman.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'median.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'median_gain.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'median_stack.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'rc-offset.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'bclahe.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'imageprocess.cpp'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'del_opv.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'new_opv.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'bad_alloc.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'del_op.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'eh_arm.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'eh_aux_runtime.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'eh_call.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'eh_catch.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'eh_exception.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'eh_globals.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'eh_personality.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'eh_terminate.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'eh_throw.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'eh_unex_handler.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'fundamental_type_info.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'new_op.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'pointer_type_info.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'pure.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'si_class_type_info.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'tinfo.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'atexit_arm.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'bad_cast.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'bad_typeid.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'class_type_info.cc'
.plt:00007088 ; Source File : 'eh_alloc.cc'

Confirms my guess of all processing being done on phone via lib.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img661/4669/czhIrb.png)'


USB device (or at least beta) has VID 0x289D and PID 0x000F. Class/subclass 255 (Vendor specific)


There is a built-in hardware simulator. Even has stubs for firmware updates. I'd bet that's what the provided image RAW sequence is for.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 05, 2014, 05:51:41 pm
I had to try for myself to extract image form raw... :)

Sensor values in the files range from min:7814, max: 8632. So I subtracted 7814, to get values from 0 to 808.
I then divided this by 3.17 to get nice RGB range from 0 to 255.

This is c# code if anyone wants to play (it's not pretty but it works):
(c# windows app)
Code: [Select]
using System;
using System.Drawing;
using System.Text;
using System.Windows.Forms;
using System.IO;

namespace WindowsFormsApplication1
{
    public partial class Form1 : Form
    {
        public Form1()
        {
            InitializeComponent();
        }

        private void button1_Click(object sender, EventArgs e)
        {
            StreamReader sr = new StreamReader(@"C:\temp\000010.data", ASCIIEncoding.Default);
            byte[] bytes = sr.CurrentEncoding.GetBytes(sr.ReadToEnd());

            UInt16[] vals = new UInt16[32448];
            int[] ivals = new int[32448];

            for (int i = 0; i < 32448; i++)//64896
            {
                vals[i] = BitConverter.ToUInt16(bytes, i * 2);
                if (vals[i] > 9000 || vals[i] < 7000) vals[i] = 8223;//outside this range is checksum?;  max: 8632, min:7814
                ivals[i] = (vals[i] - 7814);
                ivals[i] = (int)Math.Round(Convert.ToDouble(ivals[i]) / 3.17);
            }

            var target = new Bitmap(208, 156);
            int ix = 0;

            for (int x = 0; x < 156; ++x)
            {
                for (int y = 0; y < 208; ++y)
                {
                    target.SetPixel(y, x, Color.FromArgb(ivals[ix], ivals[ix], ivals[ix]));
                    ix++;
                }
            }
            pictureBox1.Image = target;
            target.Save(Application.StartupPath + "\\img.png");
        }
    }
}

The result is below:
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 05, 2014, 06:02:17 pm
I now have Java source of the library. I can see the device startup sequence (series of USB SetFeature requests) and it may be possible to get this running on PC with this information. Contact me if you want it.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 06:06:42 pm
Nice Frenky, I like your output better, and awesome work marshallh and eneuro!

Here is one of their LUT samples and the raw image with my interpretation of their Hot Iron LUT. Also I took yours and applied the same LUT.

Seems like they are doing a fast equalization, because their image is very close to mine. Other than theirs is a bit streched.


My interpretation of their Hot Iron LUT
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111431;image)

From Raw, equalized and applying LUT and magnified x 2 (pixel replication zoom)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111433;image)

From their LUT samples
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111435;image)

And Frenky's version that looks more like what I would expect.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111437;image)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 05, 2014, 06:10:52 pm
Seems they are doing a lot of filtering which is why all the public released shots are so blurry. The actual sensor data is quite good. This thing has potential
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 05, 2014, 06:18:33 pm
I added some code for iron and rainbow palletes:
(I resized images to 200% with irfanview: resample-Lanczos)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111439;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111441;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 05, 2014, 06:21:50 pm
Iron palette looks great. I was just trying to map this one and you beat me to it.
Seems as soon as we have physical units this thing is pretty much whipped.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 05, 2014, 06:22:32 pm
Seems they are doing a lot of filtering which is why all the public released shots are so blurry. The actual sensor data is quite good. This thing has potential
How do you know that data is from one of their sensors? Could easily have been from something else, generated for testing before hardware was available.

The Ebay listing is almost certainly a pre-order as there is no pic of the real thing, and shipping is estimated at 17-27 Oct
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 05, 2014, 06:25:45 pm
Seems they are doing a lot of filtering which is why all the public released shots are so blurry. The actual sensor data is quite good. This thing has potential
How do you know that data is from one of their sensors? Could easily have been from something else, generated for testing before hardware was available.

The Ebay listing is almost certainly a pre-order as there is no pic of the real thing, and shipping is estimated at 17-27 Oct

You may be right, the simu-device reports a much earlier firmware than the one included in the package (0.3 opposed to 0.6) so its possible it may be converted/massaged FLIR data.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 06:35:30 pm
But the raw data matches their claimed resolution.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 05, 2014, 06:43:28 pm
Here is a paintshop pro LUT of what I think their Hot Iron LUT is.

I renamed it from .pal to .txt

Linear progression of red from 127 to 254 increments by 1.
Linear progression of green in increments by 2 with red set to max.

Maybe it should be from 128 to 255 increments of 1 for the first part, should look pretty much the same.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Stonent on October 05, 2014, 07:35:02 pm
I now have Java source of the library. I can see the device startup sequence (series of USB SetFeature requests) and it may be possible to get this running on PC with this information. Contact me if you want it.

I saw some of those references as well, but was unsure if they were device specific or just something normal used in USB.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 05, 2014, 07:36:58 pm
If it's of any relevance, the Flir palettes are defined as YUV - I have an excel doc somewhere that converts them to RGB
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Stonent on October 05, 2014, 07:43:55 pm
If it's of any relevance, the Flir palettes are defined as YUV - I have an excel doc somewhere that converts them to RGB

I saw YUV mentioned somewhere in the code as I was digging in it last night but also references to A8R8G8B8, R8G8B8, and R8G8B8A8.

I could have very well been in part of the code for exporting images so it may not really matter.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 06, 2014, 12:14:32 am
Been playing with the offset and even if my hot metal LUT is not as nice as frenky's (please share that LUT), here is the last frame.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111472;image)

So I'm not sure if the life float ring (I meant life saver just couldnt find the words) would show as hot. But being simulation images we will have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 06, 2014, 04:50:41 am
Hi.

The way I did it was to get png image for iron palette from Paletten256.zip on this site: http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php?topic=4898.15 (http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php?topic=4898.15)

But I think you need rgb values so I extracted them into txt file (in the attachement).
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 06, 2014, 05:03:59 am
There is a man on the boat...  :D
I really hope this is the actual sensor data, because the details are great.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111501;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 06, 2014, 05:05:46 am
There is a man on the boat...  :D

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111501;image)

That's what she said  :-DD (Edit: in the US it has a kinky meaning)

Btw thank you the palette you sent me works a treat! with some image processing I think the boat ID is LA 1981 but the last two digits are blurry, could be 1987, but it's a water taxi :)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111537;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111544;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: amyk on October 06, 2014, 06:19:47 am
USB device (or at least beta) has VID 0x289D and PID 0x000F. Class/subclass 255 (Vendor specific)
:palm: Why didn't they use something like UVC? Do they really want vendor lock-in that much?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 06, 2014, 07:12:32 am
I really hope this is the actual sensor data, because the details are great.
It will be interesting to see if I we make visual light photo in sunny day, convert to gray image, scale to this resolution and add some of those LUTs  :-DD
Probably many people will think it is thermal image if you told him and do not show oryginal visual light one  >:D

For the moment I'm more interested if this camera will be supported by any Linux distro like many other crappy visual cams connected to USB, so one can use OpenCV to grab data and make some serious image processing in real time.
Without such simply functionality this thing is useless gadget only and I won't pay hundreds of $'es for it unless I can use it as just another camera but thermal.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 06, 2014, 08:32:09 am
USB device (or at least beta) has VID 0x289D and PID 0x000F. Class/subclass 255 (Vendor specific)
:palm: Why didn't they use something like UVC? Do they really want vendor lock-in that much?
Because they need to do a lot of processing to produce a visible image, so no particular reason to use a standard USB class.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 06, 2014, 10:50:29 am
I have seen a lot of thermal imagery of vessels on water and sadly the image that you guys are manipulating does not look like a thermal image to my eyes. I am happy to be wrong but that boat is not displaying the thermal signiture that I would expect. The fact that the boats ID is so clear would be very unusual unless it was directly heated ! I have considered whether the boat is exposed to high levels of sunlight but it still looks wrong to me.

Your images do look like those produced by simulated (fake) thermal images. These just translate highlights and low lights to different spectrums to simulate the palettes of a TIC.

Try applying a visible light pallete to the data and I suspect you will find it is a visible light image.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 06, 2014, 11:24:32 am
In gray it does look quite regular...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=111711;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 06, 2014, 11:41:29 am
Oh yeah. Bummer.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 06, 2014, 11:58:27 am
The fact that the boats ID is so clear would be very unusual unless it was directly heated !
..or different emissivity - warm day, dark boat?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 06, 2014, 12:02:32 pm
The guy does however look visible-spectrum-y...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: David Hess on October 06, 2014, 12:34:05 pm
I have seen a lot of thermal imagery of vessels on water and sadly the image that you guys are manipulating does not look like a thermal image to my eyes. I am happy to be wrong but that boat is not displaying the thermal signiture that I would expect. The fact that the boats ID is so clear would be very unusual unless it was directly heated ! I have considered whether the boat is exposed to high levels of sunlight but it still looks wrong to me.

I was thinking that the images include a lot of near infrared in them lowering the far infrared contrast and making them look more like a visible light image.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 06, 2014, 01:20:10 pm
I have seen a lot of thermal imagery of vessels on water and sadly the image that you guys are manipulating does not look like a thermal image to my eyes. I am happy to be wrong but that boat is not displaying the thermal signiture that I would expect. The fact that the boats ID is so clear would be very unusual unless it was directly heated ! I have considered whether the boat is exposed to high levels of sunlight but it still looks wrong to me.

I was thinking that the images include a lot of near infrared in them lowering the far infrared contrast and making them look more like a visible light image.

Aren't chalcogenide lenses nearly opaque to nIR?
This is more likely a dummy imagery converted from visible.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 06, 2014, 02:12:18 pm
No NIR, I thought that as well but the trees tops are dark, on NIR they will be gostly white.

Since they are test images we can't be sure they are IR images, but on a warm sunny day in LA and depending on the material used for the boat id, it might be hot.

The hull does show gradation from water temp to hot.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 06, 2014, 03:19:22 pm
As I stated, I may be wrong about the image, and it may be true thermal. It was the visibility of the boat ID and the 'TAXI' banner that made me suspicious. The boat images I am used to looking at are of a different nature and not normally in hot regions of the world so I may be just misreading the scene ? I attach an example of what I expect to see in cooler climates than LA.

There are some FLIR Voyager images here but they are small.

http://www.flir.com/cvs/americas/ca/lawenforcement/products/voyagerii/ (http://www.flir.com/cvs/americas/ca/lawenforcement/products/voyagerii/)

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 06, 2014, 03:26:34 pm
If you ever been in a hot sunny day at the beach, you will know a lot of things are hotter than your bare skin or at least to the same temperature.

black, Red paint will be hot to your bare feet. Railings will be really hot as well, pretty much everything is really happy absorbing the Sun's heat.

Table salt also affects IR so that might be why we see some reflections from the sun.

At least that's how I am reading it.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 06, 2014, 04:17:02 pm
This is more likely a dummy imagery converted from visible.
Maybe they (Seek thermal) wanted to show something which will give you feeling of incredible accuracy and resolution of this thing to have more backers, while reality might be cold shower with blured imaginery which without aka Flir MSX additional visual image and good calibration will be difficult to understand what you see if environment ambient temperature and weather condition changes  :-DD
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 06, 2014, 04:33:26 pm
I gathered some photos which should be from real (preproduction?) SeekThemal modules:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByXmisNIIAE4NzR.jpg) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByYoH5yIUAAh3z6.png) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByYpmlbIIAAJATk.png) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByZZYc2IcAEqPnw.jpg) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByZ35vMIcAAgPQ_.jpg) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByZ4hsICUAAmOAP.jpg) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/By0h9ZTCIAAMeJv.jpg) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/By0h9bSCAAAOVUa.jpg) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzMSw8mCMAA2oZz.jpg) (http://cdn.androidpolice.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/nexus2cee_img_thermal507922929_thumb.jpg) (http://cdn.androidpolice.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/nexus2cee_img_thermal291308744_thumb.jpg) (http://cdn.androidpolice.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/nexus2cee_img_thermal1894155304_thumb.jpg) (http://cdn.androidpolice.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/nexus2cee_img_thermal-119526315_native.jpg)
Some look better than other...
Title: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mvdswaluw on October 06, 2014, 05:57:36 pm
They all look better than what I've seen from MuOptics untill now :-(
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 06, 2014, 06:33:24 pm
Probably some of the blurriness is due to the fixed focus. But yeah it's not looking as good.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 06, 2014, 06:39:36 pm
Well, my wife told me that the hold on my bank went away, I guess they will run it again once they process it for shipping, but so far nothing.

Current status: processing
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 06, 2014, 07:59:51 pm
As someone who has ordered a SEEK unit, I should state that I am NOT expecting the imagery to be as good at that which I get from my other thermal cameras. Why? Well this is a new camera from a company that AFAIK has not written thermal camera image processing software before (unconfirmed) They may have an excellent microbolometer from Raytheon but as seasoned TIC designers will tell you..... there is much to be done in terms of image processing to make a decent image. SEEK are likely to refine their image processing software over time (just like FLIR did) and we should not expect too much in the first 'cut' of public release software.

The microbolometer is a compromise device....it always was and likely always will be. The compromise is in noise figure. The modern cameras are far less noisy than the early ones like my FLIR PM570. Ever since FLIR released the PM570 in 1997 they have been working on reducing the noise content of the images. Some has been through advances in core technology whilst much has been achieved with advanced image processing algorithms and filtering.
I remember when I first tested the PM570. I was one of the first in the UK to do so. I did not like its images at all and dismissed it as too noisy. Even FLIR admitted that the image noise content was an issue and this would be addressed in later firmware releases. Compared to what you may ask..... well compared to a FLIR PM550 Stirling cycle mechanically cooled camera. The PM550 looked like the later PM series cameras but it is the daddy of them all. The thermal imaging array was the same resolution as the PM570 at 320x240, but it was semiconductor based, cooled to -196 C (-371 F or 77K). At such a low temperature the sensor pixels and associated components within the FPA are extremely low noise. The images produced by that camera have none of the noise that we are used to with Microbolometers, even when set to a 2 C span. They are truly things of beauty. The uncooled Microbolometer based cameras will have a very hard job to equal the performance of such a cooled sensor as the law of physics is against such. For low noise you really want cooling and not room temperature. Just look at the technology used in the Low Noise Amplifiers of Radio Telescopes for more proof of this (they are cooled to the same temperature as the PM550 sensors array).

Back to the SEEK TIC. This new core will likely have been built within a tight budget and so we should expect it to be a little noisy as it may not have the clever tricks of higher end microbolometers included. The lens size is a handicap due to small size and material used. This is another compromise that has had to be made in order to reduce cost. As stated, much will also depend upon the post capture processing carried out in the SEEK camera module and host computer (phone). It is reasonably straight forward to make a good looking image by filtering and softening of edges. That is not to say that such an image is good for radiometric usage though....it just looks pretty but some detail is lost as a consequence. If you wish to see a cameras true self, set it to the smallest span possible, usually 2 C and watch the image noise appear ! At such small spans its is very hard to suppress the noise content. Many manufacturers do not offer very small temperature spans as a result. This isn't fair criticism in this case though. $200 for the SEEK is an amazing deal IMHO which is why I bought one and my colleagues are dying to get their hands on it ! I see a bright future for companies like SEEK and they will hopefully keep improving their product and the software that processes the images. Its early days after all.

Which would I prefer.... the FLIR ONE with its fancy case or the mores agricultural looking SEEK ? No contest, the SEEK has far more potential with its higher resolution core and a potentially greater interface capability for Hosts. It does not need MSX to do a decent job. The FLIR PM series are respected throughout industry as high performing, reliable thermal cameras...... and none had MSX  ;)  It all comes down to intelligent usage and a trained operator  :)  MSX is a nice function to have though..... no argument there.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 06, 2014, 08:17:00 pm
Is it possible to add a Peltier cooler to an uncooled TIC for better imagery?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 06, 2014, 08:24:57 pm
Well, thanks to marshallh there is source code out, not the library but the addresses to the library, And the whole navigation, sign in etc..

I guess I'll have to install the tegra android development pack on my current system, since I don't use my XP machine anymore, or at least not much.

https://developer.nvidia.com/tegra-android-development-pack

I'll see if I can recompile the project back to an apk before trying to modify anything.

In any event, I could use OpenCV, or Nvidia (or is it nVIDIA meh) CUDA libraries for the K1 if I get one of those Jetson dev kits. For now on my Tegra 4 Shield 1st gen I can use Nvidia's OpenCV libraries.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: David Hess on October 06, 2014, 08:35:19 pm
Is it possible to add a Peltier cooler to an uncooled TIC for better imagery?

I assume you would also have to make provisions to prevent condensation.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 06, 2014, 08:37:13 pm
Is it possible to add a Peltier cooler to an uncooled TIC for better imagery?

I assume you would also have to make provisions to prevent condensation.

I recall seeing a build on youtube for adding an HD camera sensor for telescope use and they used a peltier for cooling and styrofoam and other stuff.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 06, 2014, 08:43:35 pm
@Callipso,

Peltier coolers have been used in thermal cameras but AFIK not on microbolometers for low temperature cooling, only temperature stabilisation at around 30C. The Peltier cooled cameras used semiconductor arrays or single pixel detectors in scanned cameras. In order to obtain decent sub 0C cooling they used a 3 stage TEC (Peltier stack). You can have more TEC stages but it is a law of diminishing returns and great increases in power consumption. The 3 stage coolers resemble a stepped pyramid as each successive Peltier stage must be bigger than the one in front of it to dissipate not only its own heat but also that of the previous stage. The current consumption of the TEC makes it a problem for portable use on batteries. It is also best to cool as small at mass and volume as possible and place the sensor inside a vacuum chamber. Placing the TEC inside the vacuum chamber risks outgassing pollution of the sensor array and the vacuum around it. From memory the 3 stage Peltier cooler only managed a temperature differential of 70 C but I may have that wrong and it could be that the spec was -70C array temperature . My memory sometimes fails me.

The Microbolometer is basically an array of thermistors made from VOX. Cooled sensor arrays tend to be semiconductor based as that displays the most benefit from low temperature operation.

Trivia.... amateur and professional optical astronomers have been cooling the CCD chip in their digital cameras for some time. The CCD is a semiconductor array and its noise is reduced if you strap a Peltier cooler onto its rear ! There are articles on the Web showing how to modify consumer grade digital cameras in this way for better performance when imaging faint objects in the sky.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: c4wd on October 06, 2014, 08:58:19 pm
Good news! I just got mine from FedEx today (I had overnight shipping). Works well, minus a few bugs. Is anyone interested in me doing anything with it? Also, my order number was 39X, so they had at least 500 units shipped from my guess, more than like 1,000.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sacherjj on October 06, 2014, 08:59:35 pm
Good news! I just got mine from FedEx today (I had overnight shipping). Works well, minus a few bugs. Is anyone interested in me doing anything with it? Also, my order number was 39X, so they had at least 500 units shipped from my guess, more than like 1,000.

Did you get a shipping email, or did it just show up?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 06, 2014, 09:06:27 pm
Take images of everything and post it here :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 06, 2014, 09:06:51 pm
Great news.

Some sample images would be great  :-+
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: c4wd on October 06, 2014, 09:47:25 pm
Good news! I just got mine from FedEx today (I had overnight shipping). Works well, minus a few bugs. Is anyone interested in me doing anything with it? Also, my order number was 39X, so they had at least 500 units shipped from my guess, more than like 1,000.

Did you get a shipping email, or did it just show up?

No shipping email and the website still says processing, so I was rather surprised to see it on my doorstep when I got home!

Here are some sample images, the filters used were "White", "Tyrian" (the purple/red), and the default.

Brother at end of hallway (approx. 50 ft away from camera)
(http://gyazo.com/bac57cd16ac0bfd6ad58309e0f2d69f2.png)

My brother:
(http://gyazo.com/09c7a8670511662ca020f3b749cef5ce.png)

My protein oatmeal:
(http://gyazo.com/f5cb3faa30080590d5c933b5ba0fdb9d.png)

My dog:
(http://gyazo.com/dd3ee3ff2b3e81956790de4bd6882e23.png)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: iRad on October 06, 2014, 10:20:45 pm
Good news! I just got mine from FedEx today (I had overnight shipping). Works well, minus a few bugs. Is anyone interested in me doing anything with it? Also, my order number was 39X, so they had at least 500 units shipped from my guess, more than like 1,000.

Did you get a shipping email, or did it just show up?

No shipping email and the website still says processing, so I was rather surprised to see it on my doorstep when I got home!


Good to know, as my order number is lower than yours and when I checked this morning, my order also said it was still processing. I was beginning to become frustrated, but feel more reassured by your comments that Seek is just not able to keep up with shipping notifications. It seems that they are going through some growing pains with their website and communications.

I did not order overnight, so I'm hopeful that mine is also on its way...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sacherjj on October 06, 2014, 10:23:19 pm
I could see them processing over night orders first, regardless of order number.  Then following with standard by order number. 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: iRad on October 06, 2014, 10:28:35 pm
I could see them processing over night orders first, regardless of order number.  Then following with standard by order number.

That is NOT a good way fulfill orders or to run a business in my opinion... Orders should be filled as they come in, regardless of shipping method specified (within reason and logistics of course).
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 06, 2014, 10:29:17 pm
And at least SEEK deliver on their promises unlike Mu !

The images look pretty much as I expected. The noise processing needs some work. I don't know what thermal span was being used but the contrast is also pretty low. Thermal cameras work at their best with a scene that has a large range of temperature within it. Low differential images as often found in house walls etc, give pretty low contrast pictures. I use my feet as a test.... yes you read right. I aim the camera at my bare feet to see how much detail and sharpness can be achieved. It also should show a nice temperature gradient from the main foot area to the toes as they tend to be cooler.

As I stated before....for $200 we cannot reasonably expect the same image quality as that from a $1000+ camera but it is still early days. The limitation might be in the sensor technology though so that will need to be lived with.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 06, 2014, 10:53:50 pm
I wonder if taking video leaves raw images on the phone. I gotta check the code when I get home.

hmm fedex ground and no tracking :(

Can you tell us where it shipped from?

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 06, 2014, 11:07:53 pm
And there's already one on ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEEK-THERMAL-Android-camera-First-on-Ebay-with-fast-shipping-first-release-/331339780599?pt=US_Other_Cell_Phone_Accessories&hash=item4d2563d1f7 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEEK-THERMAL-Android-camera-First-on-Ebay-with-fast-shipping-first-release-/331339780599?pt=US_Other_Cell_Phone_Accessories&hash=item4d2563d1f7)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 06, 2014, 11:21:38 pm
So the story goes that this ebay seller bought the unit for an incompatible phone and now he wants to gouge people for $750 on a $200 device.... ar*e ho*e.  >:(  He is free to sell it for whatever he can get though. Its a pity that people are so keen to turn a fast buck....kinda makes them look really greedy. That's life though and it is a free world. I will be interested to see what it sells for, if at all.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 06, 2014, 11:35:12 pm
So the story goes that this ebay seller bought the unit for an incompatible phone and now he wants to gouge people for $750 on a $200 device.... ar*e ho*e.  >:(  He is free to sell it for whatever he can get though. Its a pity that people are so keen to turn a fast buck....kinda makes them look really greedy. That's life though and it is a free world. I will be interested to see what it sells for, if at all.
A couple of Flir Ones Sold for around $500 each a couple of days ago, so I don't doubt it will sell, especially as he's offering international shipping.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 06, 2014, 11:47:17 pm
$350 to bid, so it's up to people to decide if they want it bad enough before people bid on it.
Doesn't the buy now go away after one bid?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: iRad on October 07, 2014, 02:03:10 am
Bummer... Since there still is no SEEK THERMAL iOS app in the Apple App Store, Seek obviously does not have any iOS cameras to ship yet.  :--   It looks like I'm still out of luck for delivery any time soon, even with a low order number.  :(

I'm guessing they will probably tweet out dock arrival of the iOS devices like they did for the Android cameras on October 3rd.

Apple, you have failed me again...  :palm:
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: c4wd on October 07, 2014, 04:01:15 am
A rather large bug in the application is really getting annoying. Once you plugin the module, open the app, and close the app, you will not be able to use your camera in any app, nor will you be able to re-use the Seek Thermal app (it is a black screen), without restart. I've cleared all RAM, did a soft reset, and still no avail. Running a Note II on 4.4.2 stock.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ixfd64 on October 07, 2014, 07:13:37 am
Is it just me, or are the pictures a little blurry for the specs? The camera is supposed to have a 206 x 156 resolution, yet many sample images from 160 x 120 cameras of other brands seem much sharper.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 07, 2014, 07:20:29 am
Is it just me, or are the pictures a little blurry for the specs? The camera is supposed to have a 206 x 156 resolution, yet many sample images from 160 x 120 cameras of other brands seem much sharper.

Other brands use both visual and IR cameras, so you perceive the higher (visual) resolution.
That said, I can't wait to get mine to see what the raw image looks like before they do all of their signal processing.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 07, 2014, 08:04:22 am
I just noticed something... If you look at dog image with iron palette.
They are only using small part of pallete.
It seems that software is mapping palette colors to predefined temperatures.
So on all images specific color represents the same temperature.
(http://i.gyazo.com/dd3ee3ff2b3e81956790de4bd6882e23.png)

It would be much better if they would map whole palette to current temp range in photo.
Then all photos would look more like this:
(http://gyazo.com/f5cb3faa30080590d5c933b5ba0fdb9d.png)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 07, 2014, 08:23:04 am
Bummer... Since there still is no SEEK THERMAL iOS app in the Apple App Store, Seek obviously does not have any iOS cameras to ship yet.  :--   It looks like I'm still out of luck for delivery any time soon, even with a low order number.  :(

I'm guessing they will probably tweet out dock arrival of the iOS devices like they did for the Android cameras on October 3rd.

Apple, you have failed me again...  :palm:
I just hope they don't hold orders for both types til the Apple one is available - I ordered both in case they became available at different times but maybe this was a bad move...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: imau on October 07, 2014, 09:51:25 am
Bummer... Since there still is no SEEK THERMAL iOS app in the Apple App Store, Seek obviously does not have any iOS cameras to ship yet.  :--   It looks like I'm still out of luck for delivery any time soon, even with a low order number.  :(

I'm guessing they will probably tweet out dock arrival of the iOS devices like they did for the Android cameras on October 3rd.

Apple, you have failed me again...  :palm:
I just hope they don't hold orders for both types til the Apple one is available - I ordered both in case they became available at different times but maybe this was a bad move...

Better 2 different orders...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: nowlan on October 07, 2014, 09:56:27 am
Quote
It would be much better if they would map whole palette to current temp range in photo.
Wouldnt you start getting some weird glowing effects across the whole image, as something heats up or cools down?
Be better to adjust on a range, so 0-50 or 0-100 etc.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on October 07, 2014, 12:08:08 pm
The images look quite noisy and blurred compared to other thermal imaging cameras.
Does the camera give accurate temperature measurements? I could not find any accuracy specification on their page.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: c4wd on October 07, 2014, 03:37:22 pm
I just noticed something... If you look at dog image with iron palette.
They are only using small part of pallete.
It seems that software is mapping palette colors to predefined temperatures.
So on all images specific color represents the same temperature.
(http://i.gyazo.com/dd3ee3ff2b3e81956790de4bd6882e23.png)

It would be much better if they would map whole palette to current temp range in photo.
Then all photos would look more like this:
(http://gyazo.com/f5cb3faa30080590d5c933b5ba0fdb9d.png)

Incorrect. The first photo is using the Tyrian pallete, which only uses red/purple hues, and the second is the Iron.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: iRad on October 07, 2014, 04:24:34 pm
... I ordered both in case they became available at different times but maybe this was a bad move...

See if you can change your order to ship as available, and not ship complete. Only problem is greatly increased shipping costs for overseas.

I tried to add an Android camera to my order and was not able to modify it. Wish I had thought of making two separate orders (one for each camera) in the early order process... Oh well, hopefully the wait will not be too long.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 07, 2014, 04:34:05 pm
Mike, how did you order it to be shipped to the UK?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 07, 2014, 04:52:50 pm
Mike, how did you order it to be shipped to the UK?
Someone in the US is ordering & reshipping to me.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 07, 2014, 05:53:49 pm
Brother at end of hallway (approx. 50 ft away from camera)
gyazo.com bac57cd16ac0bfd6ad58309e0f2d69f2.png
This image when saved has .png extension and resolution 456x611, so it looks like gyazo.com  where you downloaded oryginal image changed oryginal one  :palm:

Could you make .zip of this oryginal image taken from Seek Thermal and attach to EVVblog post as attachement without using external servers?
Which is resolution of oryginal image and which version of Seek Thermal were used-Android? It was complete dark (no light) or some kind of light bulb, which one?

It looks like those images were resized to bigger one so this is why they can look such noisy, while it will depend of resizing method used, but this added many new pixels and we have very diffrent from oryginal one image, so apllying any paletes to this doesn't makes any sense while those oryginal colours (temparatures) can be changed   ???

Update:
The camera is supposed to have a 206 x 156 resolution, yet many sample images from 160 x 120 cameras of other brands seem much sharper.
This oryginal image had 206x156 resolution and RGB (3 bytes per pixel) ?

Aspect ratio is also different, so there is nothing to do with such modified image...
Quote
(%i2) float(611/456);
(%o2)                          1.339912280701754
(%i3) float(206/156);
(%o3)                          1.32051282051282
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 07, 2014, 07:48:37 pm
This oryginal image had 206x156 resolution and RGB (3 bytes per pixel) ?

Actually it has 2 bytes per pixel but the greyscale value is used to index into a look up table that gives you the rgb color.
But the resolution doesn't change, it's still 206x156
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Stigaard on October 08, 2014, 06:32:34 am
Just stumbled upon this piece of history about Flir and the co-founder of Seek Thermal Bill Parrish describing a lawsuit from 2009 filed by Flir against Bill Parrish because he had left Flir and started a company using Raytheon as a subcontractor.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1229385.html (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1229385.html)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 08, 2014, 08:16:38 am
very interesting read even if my brain hurts from all the legalese lingo
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 08, 2014, 09:05:52 am
...piece of history about Flir and the co-founder of Seek Thermal Bill Parrish describing a lawsuit from 2009...
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1229385.html (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1229385.html)
So it looks like that FLIR lost a lawsuit since they were:
Quote
FLIR SYSTEMS, INC., et al., Plaintiffs and Appellants

vs
Quote
William PARRISH et al., Defendants and Respondents
 
 8)
Quote
The judgment and order awarding respondents $1,641.216.78 attorney fees and costs are affirmed. (§?3426.4.) Respondents are awarded costs and attorney fees on appeal, in an amount to be determined by the trial court on noticed motion.

FLIR simply tried to crash Parrish:
Quote
"Subjective bad faith may be inferred by evidence that appellants intended to cause unnecessary delay, filed the action to harass respondents, or harbored an improper motive."

FLIR patents were  bullshit?  :-DD
Quote
"After quitting Indigo, Parrish learned that appellants were submitting patent applications on a packaging and manufacturing process that he had worked on. Parrish told Woolaway, FLIR's Chief Intellectual Property Officer, that the patent applications were not valid."

Quote
"Woolaway, who authored the patent applications, stated that the United States Patent & Trademark Office could go either way on the validity of the applications. Woolaway was concerned about Parrish's remarks but did not believe Parish would steal or misuse appellants' intellectual property."

Any reason to buy FLIR products, no more  after such FLIR's statements? :--
Quote
Lewis's testimony is remarkable and clearly shows that the action was brought for an anti-competitive purpose.  Lewis did not “think it would be good, healthy for them [respondents] to go and directly compete with us.”
        Lewis stated that FLIR “couldn't tolerate a direct competitive threat by [respondents] because it would fly in the face of everything that we spent 200 million dollars to buy.”
        Lewis's statements were corroborated by FLIR Senior Vice President Tony Trunzo who testified that respondents' “vision for the industry will take place someday” but FLIR “wanted that competition to take place as far out in the future as possible.”

It looks like, Seek Thermal technology might be not so bad If we combine visual image to IR, but I'm waiting for more universal IR camera easy to connect to PC USB and get it working on any operating system.

This Flir's MSX made not inside Lepton module, but using external ARMs is bullshit as now it is clear they simply wanted stop others do such trivial things.
Who gave them patent for such obvious thing used for years in image processing applications?

Do FLIR provide any patent numbers on their products with MSX?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 08, 2014, 11:09:37 am
Quote
This Flir's MSX made not inside Lepton module, but using external ARMs is bullshit as now it is clear they simply wanted stop others do such trivial things.
It would be ridiculous to put it in the Lepton module. There are many applications that wouldn't need it, so it would waste silicon, and you'd lose flexibility of camera interfaces.
Quote
Who gave them patent for such obvious thing used for years in image processing applications?
Is there another thermal imager prior to the Flir patent that uses edges extracted from a visible image to enhance a low-res thermal image?
On the scale of patent obviousness/ridicuousness this comes pretty low don the list.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Stigaard on October 09, 2014, 06:25:12 am
Just to further follow up on the patents and IP dispute I stumbled upon the following forum post on http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.dk/2014/10/206-x-156-thermal-camera-for-199.html (http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.dk/2014/10/206-x-156-thermal-camera-for-199.html)
Quote
Some history here, I have first hand knowledge of this situation in background as an analyst; In 2004, FLIR purchased Indigo for approximately $185 million, acquiring Indigo's (prior company to Seek) patents, technology, and intellectual property. Bill Parish and Fitzgibbons (Seek founders) were shareholders and officers of Indigo before the company was sold. After the sale, Parish and Fitzgibbons continued working at Indigo. Both informed FLIR that they intended to create a new class of product for consumer markets and company called Thermicon and asked FLIR's board if they wanted in. Ratheon lined up as a licensing customer. FLIR backed out and so did Ratheon when they found out FLIR had backed out. Then FLIR sued for a perminent injunction against Parish and Fitzgibbons for (1) making use of appellants' trade secrets in the design, manufacture, and high-volume production of uncooled Vanadium Oxide microbolometers; ?(2) selling uncooled Vanadium Oxide microbolometers in commercial markets less than 12 months after respondents entered into a license with Raytheon Company or any other third party to purchase intellectual property; ?or (3) using, disclosing or misappropriating the contents of an Indigo commodity code database that Parrish attempted to download while an employee at Indigo. The trial court found no misappropriation or threatened misappropriation of trade secrets and FLIR was forced to pay >$1.6M in court costs and attorney's fees. It is my belief that Parrish has successfully proven that he has access to the IP and patents through an agreement, only after a given amount of time, or Parrish owns the IP and is licensing it back to FLIR, which would account for the dispairity in cost of the two products. -R. T.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 09, 2014, 08:06:51 am
More info here - Flir paid $39m to settle, which probably financed Seek  quite nicely thank you!

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2011/05/flir_systems_will_pay_former_e.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2011/05/flir_systems_will_pay_former_e.html)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 09, 2014, 12:28:42 pm
All very interesting reading and a situation that I have seen before.

I am very pleased to hear that the SEEK founders are Ex Indigo as that company has a good reputation for the miniaturisation and cost reduction of thermal camera technology. Very good credentials for the new SEEK product technical design, and very different to those of the Mu company who were total newbies

I do not work for FLIR and have no allegence to them per se but before anyone starts hurling rocks at them, please consider this.

FLIR are an aggressive company (no doubt about that) but that is nothing unusual in successful companies these days. They went out into the marketplace, identified smaller companies that had greater experience of certain thermal camera deign aspects and they bought them. The knowledge that came with those companies was invaluable in the production of new smaller and cheaper thermal cameras. Both FLIR and we (the customers) have benefitted from these developments as cameras no longer weigh almost 3kg and do not have a starting price of >$50,000 !  Without FLIR driving the market as it has, I have little doubt that quality thermal imaging cameras would still cost more than most of us can afford.

Along comes Indigo with their excellent knowledge of miniaturisation and cost reduction. FLIR want that knowledge and buy the company and the rights to some/all of its technology. FLIR are then in a position to manufacture those great miniature thermal cores that now reside in many CCTV and handheld cameras today. Great for industry and great for us ? You decide.

FLIR think they have the rights to the Indigo knowledge and believe they paid good money for such. An employee of Indigo, who is now working for them as part of FLIR, then decides to branch out and build similar products in a new start-up company..... who of you in a similar position to FLIR would not be concerned that the EMPLOYEE was involved in industrial espionage to forward his new company ? FLIR, like many companies were worried that the 'advantage' that they had just paid a great deal of money for, may be LEAKING out the door via this EMPLOYEE. Now FLIR may have got the situation wrong and as they settled it tends to support that possibility..... but so what ? They made a mistake and paid for it. This is nothing new or unusual. If you work for a company and then tell them you are leaving to start up another company making the same product technology, you can expect to be escorted off site immediately and investigated.

FLIR are a powerful player in the world of thermal imaging and have made great advances in the products they sell. They are expensive, but then so are many German cars.....so what ! You pay for advanced technology built to a high standard. Nothing new there. I have not seen evidence that FLIR has actively tried to unfairly torpedo any competing company in the world of thermal imaging.....unlike BMW who pursued any company with the word 'MINI' in the title !

The good news is that SEEK exists and will hopefully manage to go from strength to strength.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: nowlan on October 09, 2014, 12:51:44 pm
Not wanting to derail the thread.

Intellectual property can be hairy. They should of had a non compete clause in the contract for employee. Not sure how this would work during an acquisition.

I still think gorillas buying up competitors is bad for consumers. Need more competition to drive innovation and prices down.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 09, 2014, 01:28:34 pm
You will see no argument from me in favour of 'borging' all competition....not good for competition as you say. Which is why I am glad to see SEEK and other small companies entering the thermal imaging scene. The technology that they invent will benefit all.

The situation with FLIR is a little different though. I started out in thermography using Magnavox and Agema cameras. AGEMA (previously AGA) were the industry declared leading light in thermography. The down side of AGEMA kit was its size, weight and cost. I am not absolutely surre of my facts here but I believe FLIR saw the potential to build better thermal cameras by taking the knowledge of two manufacturers and combining them under one roof (FLIRs roof) The other company was Inframetrics, another very advanced thermal camera manufacturer of the time. Inframetrics apparently knew how to build a great thermal core but their case designs and ergonomics left something to be desired. All this was from a FLIR Rep so take it as you will. The story goes that FLIR bought Agema and Inframetrics to gain the best from both companies designs and then they produced cameras that were well designed, ergonomic and high performance. The PM series quickly became the darlings of Industry and were consider 'cutting edge'. I certainly loved using them and they made some competitor products look like cheap toys in comparison. Looks and ergonomics are important to the buyer. Prices were still high but then so was build quality and performance. I have spoken to several calibration houses for thermal cameras and all say the same thing....when they see a PM series camera they are happy as it is the exception that needs calibration, most remain firmly within specs throughout their operational lives. Sadly many also commented that the latest cheaper FLIR offerings and cameras from other manufacturers are not so stable and need regular calibration to maintain accuracy. TESTO is apparently pretty good as well.

FLIR appear to have a policy of increasing capability via purchasing market leading companies as they then get the whole package rather than head hunting an individual designer. This does have the potential for a negative effect on the market competition but it also has the potential for great innovation via the joining of great minds under one roof.
FLIR have certainly made some nice thermal cameras for the consumer market whilst still maintaining their Industrial camera development.

All this is off topic I know but it is worth considering who and what 'FLIR' really are as they have much influence in the world of thermography and they are a potential competitor to SEEK Thermal. It is my hope that FLIR do not set their sights on SEEK as it would be a Shark vs a Minnow situation. the fact that both FLIR and SEEK Thermal both use Raytheon supplied technology is a blessing and a curse depending upon inter-company politics.

Aurora
 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 09, 2014, 05:51:41 pm
All this is off topic I know but it is worth considering who and what 'FLIR' really are as they have much influence in the world of thermography and they are a potential competitor to SEEK Thermal.
Nice to know some history, but who knows who is patent owner if any of this fusion adding visual light based edges/countours to thermal image, named by Flir MSX?

If this was patented, so what about... adding parts of processed visual images to for example x-rays fusion with visual here?
(http://s5.postimg.org/g802ym9gj/x_ray_with_skin_visible.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/g802ym9gj/)
This image could look probably better if edges were added not oryginal skin image...

Does  Seek Thermal have rights if needed to make such IR & visual light fusion aka MSX ?

I can not believe such thing could be patented, while I was thinking that Flir developed some kind of dual IR & visual light image sensing in his Lepton module or other chips, but when saw in Flir One teardown two separate IR & visual light cameras close together, the only thing I can say about patent systems  :rant:  :wtf:
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: waldo on October 09, 2014, 08:50:30 pm
FLIR has at least one set of patents specifically related to MSX.

Patent 8,520,970: Infrared resolution and contrast enhancement with fusion  -  https://www.google.com/patents/US8520970 (https://www.google.com/patents/US8520970)
and
Patent 8,565,547: Infrared resolution and contrast enhancement with fusion  -  https://www.google.com/patents/US8565547 (https://www.google.com/patents/US8565547)
and
Application 13/437,645: Infrared resolution and contrast enhancement with fusion  -  https://www.google.com/patents/US20120262584 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20120262584)

The second patent's application is a Continuation-In-Part of the first patent's application and the third is a CIP of the second.  A CIP is typically used to add more specific claims to an application without changing the application's priority date.  I have not looked at them in detail to understand the differences.  The first two were granted in 2013.

For those interesting in exploring possible prior art, you can look at the references in those patents and you can visit uspto.gov and look at the Public PAIR information.  That will tell you what items of prior art the examiner used to grant those patents.  You could also look at the equivalent European patent databases.

Keep in mind that the presence of these patents does not necessarily affect what Seek could do since they may have a licensing agreement with Flir on this IP.  It could, however, affect what third parties (meaning: you) can legally do with regard to distributing their own apps that use the ideas in these patents.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 09, 2014, 11:49:48 pm
In image processing lingo, it's called image registration and it's been around for decades, maybe their specific registration techniques are patented or copyrighted but there are many ways to solve the registration problem and even do it real time

It's been used in medical imaging, GIS, movie effects, ....
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 10, 2014, 07:17:34 am
It could, however, affect what third parties (meaning: you) can legally do with regard to distributing their own apps that use the ideas in these patents.
Rather, those patents can be illegal and only a way to limit competition in wrong way.
I can display everything on my screen when I want from two or more diffrent images and no one will tell me that I can't do it since It was possible for decades.
It is clear those patents with IR & visual light fusion are bullshit  :-DD

Patent 8,520,970: Infrared resolution and contrast enhancement with fusion  -  https://www.google.com/patents/US8520970 (https://www.google.com/patents/US8520970)
One of the claims:
Quote
combining, by a processor, luminance information of the extracted pixel data with luminance information of corresponding pixels in the IR image to augment the IR image with the contours and/or edges from the visual image, wherein the augmented IR image comprises temperature information that is unaltered by the combining.
This doesn't have any sense, while if we add/modify even edges we have to destroy/change small parts of IR image where edges are else we can't see any difference on IR image if we do not change it :wtf:
It is like we change something, but there is no difference  :-DD

BTW: These patents do not affect me at all since I developed novel way to augment the IR image and showed in other post-there are not edges of visual image, but... chosen by image processing filter available for decades at the begining of computer vision, but I do not want pay patent offices and lawyers for nothing  >:(
(http://s5.postimg.org/j595sv0bn/proacswitch3_opensource_msx.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/j595sv0bn/)
It does not use Flir MSX luminance, but who cares about it and stupid patents  ???




Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 10, 2014, 07:22:04 am
Well you can actually register it in a different projection plane as well so it matches the whole image, but not bad.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Sensor Geek on October 10, 2014, 11:41:13 pm
FYI: A canned response from Seek to an inquiry a few days ago on estimated shipping date on my order from Sept 26. They had originally authorized the order amount on my card, but that has since been lifted and no further charges have been made. My order status shows only "processing". Granted, they are very busy right now, but it would have been nice to have a little more detail, or maybe have them take the time to update their Twitter feed, or some form of communication other than this.

Quote
Seek Support (Seek Thermal)
Oct 10 12:42

Thank you for contacting Seek Support.

We understand that you are interested in getting a status update on your order. Initial shipments were held pending the release of our companion Android and iOS apps. The Android app posted to Google Play on Friday, and Android cameras began shipping right away. We anticipate that it will take 1-2 weeks to work through the backlog of Android orders.

For iOS, we submitted to Apple and the app is in review. Once approved we will begin shipping iOS units as well.

All orders are being processed in the order in which they were received, and we are working to get them out to everyone as quickly as possible. When your order ships you will receive an update email with tracking details.

If you have other questions regarding your order, or need to have details from your order modified, please send an email to retailsupport@thermal.com with your order number, and the desired updates.

Oh, this should be post #207.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 12, 2014, 06:50:51 am
Cool video of 3D pritner (captured with seek thermal module):

3d printing thermal camera video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_5Y489GR34#)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 12, 2014, 09:51:32 am
That's some very decent imagery!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: EEVblog on October 12, 2014, 10:14:39 am
Quote
The judgment and order awarding respondents $1,641.216.78 attorney fees and costs are affirmed. (§?3426.4.) Respondents are awarded costs and attorney fees on appeal, in an amount to be determined by the trial court on noticed motion.

$1.6M just in attorney fees  :o
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: David Hess on October 12, 2014, 01:27:03 pm
Quote
The judgment and order awarding respondents $1,641.216.78 attorney fees and costs are affirmed. (§?3426.4.) Respondents are awarded costs and attorney fees on appeal, in an amount to be determined by the trial court on noticed motion.

$1.6M just in attorney fees  :o

The attorneys win no matter who loses.  Or even if all sides lose.

They largely write the laws as well.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 12, 2014, 10:44:18 pm
LEV - the Legal Engineering Videoblog...

Or is it?

Also anyone received their seek yet? I can't wait for Mike to get his :D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2014, 11:14:06 pm
LEV - the Legal Engineering Videoblog...

Or is it?

Also anyone received their seek yet? I can't wait for Mike to get his :D
Ditto....
I have a suspicion that after the first few shipments things have slowed down if not stopped - only two have been on Ebay, and apart from some press reviews, not much has appeared online so far. Their twitter feed has been rather quiet as well.
I wonder of they only did a relatively small initial batch.
Google Play is showing "500-1000" installs and only 10 ratings.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 12, 2014, 11:30:01 pm
Mine order number was mid 600s and it's still processing. But I decided Fedex Ground because it was free.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2014, 11:32:36 pm
I wonder if the reported serious-sounding  issues with the Android app may have something to do with it...?
Perhaps they consider it better to delay shipment than have a lot more pissed-off customers.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: nowlan on October 13, 2014, 02:04:13 am
Damned if you do, damned if you dont. If they have stock they can fulfill orders.
Can always update software later.

What happend with the IOS app? Still pending?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 13, 2014, 02:45:01 am
iOS is waiting on submission approval for the store.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 13, 2014, 06:24:17 am
I've made some digging on who is this "Frank Kinnaman"  that posted video of 3D printer...

Education Program Coordinator on UC Santa Barbara
http://www.mrl.ucsb.edu/people/administration-education/frank-kinnaman (http://www.mrl.ucsb.edu/people/administration-education/frank-kinnaman)

On this page you can see cooperation with Flir on thermal granade and his name is mentioned many times on different projects:
http://www.me.ucsb.edu/projects/projects.html (http://www.me.ucsb.edu/projects/projects.html)

The level of details on this video of 3D printer is much greater than on other images from users...
So it could be that they took seek thermal module and wrote their own post-processing software, they sure do have knowledge and resources.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 13, 2014, 06:56:12 am
According to a reply on the comments, no postprocessing was done
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 13, 2014, 06:26:11 pm
According to a reply on the comments, no postprocessing was done
This part of one of those comments:
Quote
"It could be that noise is less noticeable on video then on still image... ?"

In spare time I will load one of them frame by frame using OpenCV and try to enhance it a little bit and look into differences between frames too >:D
But there is a problem on YT there is no oryginal thermal video I guess, while only we can watch and download processed by YT itself  ???
How do you think, which of those YT videos is in the best quality in your opinion?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sacherjj on October 14, 2014, 01:55:23 pm
Damned if you do, damned if you dont. If they have stock they can fulfill orders.
Can always update software later.

That is actually a tough situation.  It would seem this is best, unless the problem is bad enough that the word of mouth damage is higher than the late shipping damage.  I keep thinking that surely they would make an initial production of 1k.  I'm in the 600s and getting impatient.   :rant:
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: imau on October 14, 2014, 03:10:36 pm
I don't know you but I smell SCAM.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 14, 2014, 03:23:35 pm
According to a reply on the comments, no postprocessing was done
This part of one of those comments:
Quote
"It could be that noise is less noticeable on video then on still image... ?"

In spare time I will load one of them frame by frame using OpenCV and try to enhance it a little bit and look into differences between frames too >:D
But there is a problem on YT there is no oryginal thermal video I guess, while only we can watch and download processed by YT itself  ???
How do you think, which of those YT videos is in the best quality in your opinion?

For those that used VHS tapes before you will know that our eye is wonderful interpolating frames. A single VHS frame is noisy and not that great at an equivalent 320x240 but it looks good when played at 30 Hz.

As for imau, what makes you think it's a SCAM, we all know is an IRCAM ;)
patience is a virtue.

Edit: after all we didn't know anything about this camera 2 months back, they just announced it at the end of September so it's been really just 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 14, 2014, 03:34:52 pm
I suspect they maybe announced a little early to take the wind out of Flir One's sales, and either did a relatively small first batch, or as previously speculated, resolving software issues that may involve firmware.

Still <1000 installs on Google App store & only 10 ratings.

 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: imau on October 14, 2014, 03:36:54 pm

As for imau, what makes you think it's a SCAM, we all know is an IRCAM ;)
patience is a virtue.

Edit: after all we didn't know anything about this camera 2 months back, they just announced it at the end of September so it's been really just 2 weeks.

SCAM = Seek CAMera.  ;D

Also a quote from a guy on Facebook:
Quote
We'll see if they actually end up shipping anything. In the last week, as far as I can tell, there have only been two Youtube videos showing the camera - one unboxing (and not powering it up) and one showing 3D printing.

Seek's remarkable lack of communication since launch is extremely worrisome. I placed my order on 9/26, and my confirmation email stated, "we are currently experiencing a 5-7 business delay in the shipment of your order." Well, something like a week went by and then Seek announced that they were waiting for the Android app to go live before they shipping. Judging by the community reaction, this was a big surprise and was pretty upsetting to a lot of people.

Well, here we are, now 18 days since my order, 11 days since the app was released in the Play Store. No matter how you slice it, Seek is very late in shipping their product, and is not communicating with its customers. This whole thing is looking more and more like a scam everyday, or at least a horribly mismanaged company. Either way, if I don't hear *something* from them today to address  all of this, I'll be calling my bank to ensure I don't lose $214.93.

And Mike: <1000 installs are curiosity and 10 reviews are employees.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 14, 2014, 04:04:14 pm
Another possibility is they're caught in the backlog of stuff coming out of China - apparently they fired 500 corrupt customs officials & everything is taking a long time to get out of the country
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 14, 2014, 06:51:49 pm
I'm in the 600s and getting impatient.   :rant:
How do you know you are 600's-maybe they simply assigned random unique numbers in the unknown range  >:D

Maybe, Seek Thermal team is waiting for... open source version of software compatible with this SCAM and Linux drivers :-DD
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 14, 2014, 07:01:03 pm
Order page is now showing :

Quote
Product is currently on back order.Product is being shipped as quickly as possible
for Android
and
Quote
Product is currently on back order. It should begin shipping within the next several weeks.
For iPhone.

My guess is they initially did 500 of each, and the Apple ones are waiting for App store approval.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Legit-Design on October 14, 2014, 07:38:57 pm
And Mike: <1000 installs are curiosity and 10 reviews are employees.
I was trying to install the software, it just says my device isn't supported.  :-// And I don't think I'm going to order one of these before I see real people using it and all the kinks and bugs have been fixed. Maybe the next generation or cheap thermal imagers has come out and hopefully they would be even cheaper since it would be a toy.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 14, 2014, 07:51:16 pm
My device wasn't supported so I side loaded it, but since it supports my wife's phone then I installed it again in there. So I guess that counts for 2 installs for one device. But then I did share it so I don't know how much the install base reflects the actual purchases.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sacherjj on October 14, 2014, 10:06:44 pm
My device wasn't supported so I side loaded it, but since it supports my wife's phone then I installed it again in there. So I guess that counts for 2 installs for one device. But then I did share it so I don't know how much the install base reflects the actual purchases.

I don't know if side-loading would show up in Play store stats.

The lack of communication is inexcusable.  Even if they have to manually do an export of their customers to use a service.  Sending emails to a mass of people is easy and common. 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 14, 2014, 10:14:25 pm
Just tweeted :
Quote
Update: due to an unexpected shortage of a key component, production is delayed right now. Android shipping will ramp back up in a few days.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 14, 2014, 10:28:58 pm
My device wasn't supported so I side loaded it, but since it supports my wife's phone then I installed it again in there. So I guess that counts for 2 installs for one device. But then I did share it so I don't know how much the install base reflects the actual purchases.

I don't know if side-loading would show up in Play store stats.

The lack of communication is inexcusable.  Even if they have to manually do an export of their customers to use a service.  Sending emails to a mass of people is easy and common.

Well I had to download it so I use bluestacks you always have to be connected to the store to get the apk anyways. I guess I could have rooted my wife's phone but meh, bluestacks was easier.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 15, 2014, 06:35:14 am
Two new posts showed up on their blog: http://seekthermal.tumblr.com/ (http://seekthermal.tumblr.com/)
and another video on facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=753765308029376 (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=753765308029376)

IMHO a good way to calm down people who started to doubt that they will ever receive the module.

Sadly there are some bad news for us outside the USA:

when will you be shipping to the UK ?
in the next couple of weeks. pls fill out form here to be notified

Before they were saying that international shipping will be available by the end of this week...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 15, 2014, 09:08:26 am
Two new posts showed up on their blog: http://seekthermal.tumblr.com/ (http://seekthermal.tumblr.com/)
and another video on facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=753765308029376 (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=753765308029376)

IMHO a good way to calm down people who started to doubt that they will ever receive the module.

Sadly there are some bad news for us outside the USA:

when will you be shipping to the UK ?
in the next couple of weeks. pls fill out form here to be notified

Before they were saying that international shipping will be available by the end of this week...
yeah but before that they were saying 2015...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 15, 2014, 09:11:57 am
Two new posts showed up on their blog: http://seekthermal.tumblr.com/ (http://seekthermal.tumblr.com/)

Not sure I like all the talk of glue on that page.... >:(
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sacherjj on October 15, 2014, 11:58:35 am
Two new posts showed up on their blog: http://seekthermal.tumblr.com/ (http://seekthermal.tumblr.com/)

Not sure I like all the talk of glue on that page.... >:(

I don't mind it on the structural side, but I really, really like to take things apart.  When they are expensive things, it is nice if they go back together.   :o
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 16, 2014, 01:35:24 pm
Two new posts showed up on their blog: http://seekthermal.tumblr.com/ (http://seekthermal.tumblr.com/)

Not sure I like all the talk of glue on that page.... >:(

I don't mind it on the structural side, but I really, really like to take things apart.  When they are expensive things, it is nice if they go back together.   :o

There is nothing a well placed set of screws and O-rings couldn't do... Unless you're building something you don't want your custo.. I mean consumers to get into.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 16, 2014, 01:57:40 pm
There is nothing a well placed set of screws and O-rings couldn't do...
..at a price.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: nowlan on October 16, 2014, 01:59:12 pm
Where can you order these from?
I noticed that amazon dropped their price to $199 recently from $228. Still no stock.
CamelCamelCamel (http://camelcamelcamel.com/Seek-UW-AAA-Thermal-Connector-Black/product/B00NYWAHHM?active=price_amazon&context=top_drops)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: DEHiCKA on October 16, 2014, 06:49:06 pm
http://obtain.thermal.com (http://obtain.thermal.com)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 17, 2014, 02:21:26 pm
Wire just published review: http://www.wired.com/2014/10/seek-thermal-infrared-camera-iphone-android/ (http://www.wired.com/2014/10/seek-thermal-infrared-camera-iphone-android/)

The interesting part is comparison with Flir One.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 17, 2014, 02:36:10 pm
If you take a look at this video there is something like super-resolution happening:
Pouring Hot Coffee in Infrared (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMhKrVrHpd8#)

Every few seconds image gets "nicer".
This are two frames at 00:02 and the difference is huge:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=113622;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 17, 2014, 04:31:12 pm
Could that be the shutter actuating and NUCing or FFCing the image?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 17, 2014, 04:41:18 pm
Could that be the shutter actuating and NUCing or FFCing the image?
Could be the effect of keyframes on Youtube video compression of a noisy image
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: imau on October 17, 2014, 04:43:45 pm
Wire just published review: http://www.wired.com/2014/10/seek-thermal-infrared-camera-iphone-android/ (http://www.wired.com/2014/10/seek-thermal-infrared-camera-iphone-android/)

The interesting part is comparison with Flir One.

There is so much difference between Flir One and Seek shots. Obviously, MSX is great add-on.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 17, 2014, 04:44:42 pm
I have an order in with SEEK and I am certainly not concerned about delayed shipments. Such can happen to any ne start-up company selling a very popular product. This is nothing like the mess that we all witnessed wit teh Mu product. There is so much evidence of the SEEK unit existing that we can be realaxed about it being a viabe product. As to them being shipped, one of our members has one so tehy have definitely shipped cameras. Patience will be required and you will be rewarded with a thermal camera that truly breaks new ground in terms of resolution at the price point. Hopefully the glitches in the Android software will be resolved quickly.

I do not need an iOS version but I hope Apple don't get silly over inclusion in their Apple store or the use of their propriatary interface.

I am just very pleased that SEEK have the objective of bringing decent resolution and affordable thermal imaging cameras to the masses. May they be very succesful in doing so. We, the early adopters, are not only suppporting SEEKs efforts with our money but also getting ahead of the crowd in this new release of camera technology. Well worth a little wait me thinks  :)

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 17, 2014, 04:51:39 pm
There is so much difference between Flir One and Seek shots. Obviously, MSX is great add-on.

Yes MSX is great, but comparison image is very bad. They should have used the same palettes and color range on both captures.
Or just take the images with gray gradient palette.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 17, 2014, 05:57:33 pm
Also FLIR systems likely have much greater experience in thermal image processing than what's basically a smartphone-"app" startup, or whatever tyrian systems actually is...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 17, 2014, 06:39:19 pm
Every few seconds image gets "nicer".
This are two frames at 00:02 and the difference is huge:
Nicer does not mean more accurate, but it can be simply blured as well ;)
In the case of static images (not moving object sin the scene) I could add option in software to do moving average preset amount frames back, so one could get oversampled thermal imaginery and when something is not moveing we should get nice thermal improoved images, while there is no problem to mount camera and point to area of interest.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 17, 2014, 07:00:37 pm
Wire just published review: http://www.wired.com/2014/10/seek-thermal-infrared-camera-iphone-android/ (http://www.wired.com/2014/10/seek-thermal-infrared-camera-iphone-android/)
For me interesting is this  Thermal+ mode  >:D

Quote
"But wait! There is one other mode – Thermal+. In this mode, the app uses both the IR camera and the iPhone’s built in camera. This way you can switch back and forth between visible and IR images."

(http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/photo_oct_15_4_25_08_pm_jpg_and_arduino_workshop_a_hands_on_introduction_with_65_projects_pdf_page_27_of_36_.jpg)

Hopefully, those two cameras are on the same side, but why this app only shows them side by side-they do not try to apply edges to thermal image?
Flir's MSX patent issues or simply this crappy phone visual light camera has very diffrent focus not compatible with Seek Thermal?

It could be interesting to see difference in optics of those two cameras, however I do not plan to buy iPhone no way, so more details about Seek Thermal optics could be very interesting to know, to... find proper visual light camera to be able apply those edges from visual to thermal  :-/O
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sacherjj on October 17, 2014, 07:36:49 pm
Just got shipping notice. Left Boise yesterday. Has next week delivery listed.   Order number in 600s.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 17, 2014, 07:40:14 pm
@sacherjj,

Good news  :-+

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 17, 2014, 07:44:40 pm
Mike, would you happen to know your order number?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 17, 2014, 08:00:17 pm
Mike, would you happen to know your order number?
69x - it has arrived in the US, the acknowledgement email arrived afterwards!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 17, 2014, 08:26:46 pm
Cue pinouts and protocol specs...  O0

Also hihi, 69 :D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: iRad on October 17, 2014, 08:53:33 pm
Just got a message from Seek saying that they are very sorry they have not shipped my (Apple) Seek Thermal order in the time originally expected. Adding that it longer to get their apps in the app stores than anticipated, and that the delay created a significant backlog of orders. Further stating that after a brief component shortage temporarily halted production, they are as of this week ramping up production and once again shipping Android cameras.

Seek says that they will likewise begin shipping Apple cameras once the app has been approved in iTunes, which they hope will be very soon... "in the next few weeks."
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 17, 2014, 09:11:45 pm
I got the has shipped email at 2:12 pm CDT and the order update apologizing at 2:35pm, since I was cheap I wont get it until Wednesday.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 17, 2014, 09:34:35 pm
Mine will be here Monday

(http://media3.giphy.com/media/rl0FOxdz7CcxO/200_s.gif)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: waldo on October 17, 2014, 09:44:50 pm
Every few seconds image gets "nicer".
This are two frames at 00:02 and the difference is huge:

That is due to the periodic recalibration.  You can hear the shutter click each time the image pauses.  On my unit, the fixed pattern noise slowly increases for a few seconds and then suddenly goes away (mostly) each time it clicks.  I have never used a thermal camera before, but I not not expect such a quick drifting of the image quality.  As I recall, Mike did not recalibrate in his little DIY camera using a Lepton, so the Seek sensor appears to be different from a Lepton in that regard.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 18, 2014, 09:48:20 am
Regarding NUC events..... extant technology that requires an NUC event tends to operate teh NUC shutter quite often while teh imager chip and surrounding electronics come up to nominal temperature. If you look at a microbolometer using another thermal camera you will see that it produces heat and runs at around 30C. While it warms up teh NUC is needed to compensate for teh large delta T that is occurring. Once at normal operating temperature, teh NUC events should become less frequent and teh nominal setting in many cameras for routine NUC is 120 seconds. On Industrial cameras you can often change teh fixed interval of even switch off teh NUC for videa work etc. My NEC Avio cameras offer this menu option as standard.

Without an NUC event the Inductrial cameras take some time to suffer the mottling effect that is a sign of temperature drift in teh Pixels. I have had a stable image for more than 5 minutes BUT thise cameras have TEC temperature stabilised microbolometers. The E4 drift rate is much rater due to teh lack of any TEC but the software does try to compensate based on the chassis and microbolometer die temperature sensor readings.

The SEEK appears to suffer noise issues and this may well be due to a lack of processing in the associted software. Much of FLIR noise reduction technology is software based. The SEEK microbolometer is using the smallest pixel size that I have seen at 12uM. There is a down side to small pixel size. Less surface area means less sensitivity in much teh same way as CCD pixels suffer from lowe sensitivity as they become smaller. With CCD chips teh technology has compensated fro this. Small pixel size and subsequent lower mass may also add to temperature uniformity issues across the array.

The bottom line is that teh SEEK is breaking new ground and using a new smaller FPA for teh microbolometer. It is also using a mobile phone host and reliant upon software for imaga eenhancement. IMHO it would seem unreasonable to expect the SEEK to have an equivalent image quality to one of my Industrial cameras taht have desicated SBC's for the OS and image improvement algorithms. I would expect its image quality to improve as the software develops over time however. I am surprised that, with the higher resolution, it does not provide far superior images to the FLIR One however. MSX does add visyual detail but even teh thermal images of the SEEK do seem to suffer from severe noise artifacts. This will need to be addressed.

When all is said and done, if you want a very cheap thermal imaging capability for your phone, the SEEK seems to fit teh bill. If you want decent image quality and a neat self contained unit, please consider the FLIR E4. There MAY be good news for E4 Firmware 2.1 and 2.3 owners soon  ;) 

Aurora (floating around in the Atlantic!)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 18, 2014, 10:59:30 pm
Tracking shows (one of) mine has arrived in the country  >:D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Legit-Design on October 18, 2014, 11:34:47 pm
Without an NUC event the Industrial cameras take some time to suffer the mottling effect that is a sign of temperature drift in the Pixels. I have had a stable image for more than 5 minutes BUT these cameras have TEC temperature stabilized microbolometers. The E4 drift rate is much rater due to the lack of any TEC but the software does try to compensate based on the chassis and microbolometer die temperature sensor readings.

Small pixel size and subsequent lower mass may also add to temperature uniformity issues across the array.
So would modifying it with a TEC (Peltier) possibly make it better? Just to cool it down enough so it doesn't start condensation but still keep it at optimum temperature. I've seen some cool modifications for astro imaging cameras using peltiers, just a small cold finger will do wonders.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: iRad on October 19, 2014, 02:53:01 am
GREAT NEWS FOR IOS APPLE USERS... THE APP IS NOW IN THE APP STORE!!!  :clap:   :-+  :phew:
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 19, 2014, 08:30:01 am
THE APP IS NOW IN THE APP STORE!!!
APP with closed source code is not needed, but real hardware to hack  >:D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 19, 2014, 09:06:56 am
Without an NUC event the Industrial cameras take some time to suffer the mottling effect that is a sign of temperature drift in the Pixels. I have had a stable image for more than 5 minutes BUT these cameras have TEC temperature stabilized microbolometers. The E4 drift rate is much rater due to the lack of any TEC but the software does try to compensate based on the chassis and microbolometer die temperature sensor readings.

Small pixel size and subsequent lower mass may also add to temperature uniformity issues across the array.
So would modifying it with a TEC (Peltier) possibly make it better? Just to cool it down enough so it doesn't start condensation but still keep it at optimum temperature. I've seen some cool modifications for astro imaging cameras using peltiers, just a small cold finger will do wonders.
I don't know too much about the physics of the sensors,  but I'm sure that if cooling would help, manufacturers would be doing it, as the cost of a peltier is small compared to the sensor.
I suspect one issue is that you don't want to create thermal gradients across the sensor, which would be hard to avoid.
Sensors are packaged in a vacuum to avoid convection losses, so it wouldn't be hard to mount the die on a peltier inside a sealed package to avoid condensation issues.     
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: iRad on October 19, 2014, 12:02:26 pm
THE APP IS NOW IN THE APP STORE!!!
APP with closed source code is not needed, but real hardware to hack   :blah:

APP is needed, because availability of the iOS APP means that real hardware will now ship.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 20, 2014, 10:47:37 am
Just got hold of mine. Having issues possibly due to old phone -in the meantime can someone download the latest app  for me (not available outside US) - looks like it was updated Oct 14th
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sacherjj on October 20, 2014, 11:42:02 am
Just got hold of mine. Having issues possibly due to old phone -in the meantime can someone download the latest app  for me (not available outside US) - looks like it was updated Oct 14th

Check your PMs...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 20, 2014, 12:21:40 pm
Just got hold of mine. Having issues possibly due to old phone -in the meantime can someone download the latest app  for me (not available outside US) - looks like it was updated Oct 14th
Can't wait for the teardown & reverse engineering video... :-/O
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 20, 2014, 12:37:29 pm
Just got hold of mine. Having issues possibly due to old phone -in the meantime can someone download the latest app  for me (not available outside US) - looks like it was updated Oct 14th

Check your PMs...
Thanks!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: cynfab on October 20, 2014, 01:47:19 pm
I got mine on Fri. about 10 minutes before the shipping e-mail arrived.
Plugged it into my Galaxy S4 Mini and..... nothing. fiddled around  for a while turning on & off USB debugging. Re-plugging, re-installing, registering..... still nothing. Was it a dud???
Well not quite. Plugging it into a linux desktop lsusb produced: Bus 002 Device 006: ID 289d:0010
Sideloading the app onto my Nexus 7 didn't produce any results either. So off goes an e-mail to their tech support.
As it was Fri afternoon, I wasn't expecting any response. I wasn't disappointed, so I had all weekend to stew.
Not being able to leave it alone, I dug out my Radxa Rock, and after much fussing got a bootable SD card with KitKat 4.4.2 running. The app appeared on the Play Store, so I installed it and plugged the camera into the OTG port... nothing, just like the S4  Mini.
But wait, the Rock has 2 USB host ports and plugging the camera into either one, (or the USB hub I have my mouse/kbd in) and the app asked if it could use the USB port (I said yes) then the app said it was updating the camera firmware ;>) then the app gave me a really nice black screen ;>(.
But wait, all the controls were un-greyed and by pressing the camera and shutter I got a real thermal snapshot. I was not able to record a video though.

It will be interesting to see what their tech support says about all this..
And their app rev 1.2.1 crashes a lot and sometimes you must clear the user data to stop it from crashing on startup.

The attached image is just as it came off the Radxa Rock, exif and all. Notice that it is 832 x 624 pixels.

   ...ken...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 20, 2014, 02:31:56 pm
There have been reports of flakiness on other platforms, in particular Samsung S3, and a message on their facebook page indicates that they have found some issues and will be issuing an update soon.
 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 20, 2014, 08:32:31 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/syI2YC6.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/PDDU1hP.jpg)

Empty space where Lightning<>USB bridge interface sits.
Case is aluminum, pried apart not too much fuss.

Someone mail me a crappy anrdoidr phone and I'll get usb logs :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 20, 2014, 08:40:14 pm
Case is aluminum
Magnesium
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 20, 2014, 08:47:20 pm
4 very nice test points under the sensor.. separated ground fill... money's on SPI-like
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 20, 2014, 09:05:17 pm
4 very nice test points under the sensor.. separated ground fill... money's on SPI-like
Yes, probably. Also the MCU is flashless -all the code lives in the external SPI flash  >:D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 20, 2014, 09:46:25 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/xYgcAoc.png)


Code: [Select]
Device Descriptor:
bcdUSB:             0x0200
bDeviceClass:         0x00
bDeviceSubClass:      0x00
bDeviceProtocol:      0x00
bMaxPacketSize0:      0x40 (64)
idVendor:           0x289D
idProduct:          0x0010
bcdDevice:          0x0100
iManufacturer:        0x01
0x0409: "Seek Thermal"
iProduct:             0x02
0x0409: "PIR206 Thermal Camera"
iSerialNumber:        0x05
bNumConfigurations:   0x01

ConnectionStatus: DeviceConnected
Current Config Value: 0x01
Device Bus Speed:     High
Device Address:       0x02
Open Pipes:              2

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x01  OUT
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0200 (512)
bInterval:            0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x81  IN
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0200 (512)
bInterval:            0x00

Configuration Descriptor:
wTotalLength:       0x0040
bNumInterfaces:       0x02
bConfigurationValue:  0x01
iConfiguration:       0x00
bmAttributes:         0x80 (Bus Powered )
MaxPower:             0x32 (100 Ma)

Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber:     0x00
bAlternateSetting:    0x00
bNumEndpoints:        0x02
bInterfaceClass:      0xFF
bInterfaceSubClass:   0xF0
bInterfaceProtocol:   0x00
iInterface:           0x03
0x0409: "iAP Interface"

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x01  OUT
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0200 (512)
bInterval:            0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x81  IN
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0200 (512)
bInterval:            0x00

Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber:     0x01
bAlternateSetting:    0x00
bNumEndpoints:        0x00
bInterfaceClass:      0xFF
bInterfaceSubClass:   0xF0
bInterfaceProtocol:   0x01
iInterface:           0x04
0x0409: "com.thermal.pir206.1"
0x0409: "com.thermal.pir206.1"

Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber:     0x01
bAlternateSetting:    0x01
bNumEndpoints:        0x02
bInterfaceClass:      0xFF
bInterfaceSubClass:   0xF0
bInterfaceProtocol:   0x01
iInterface:           0x04
0x0409: "com.thermal.pir206.1"
0x0409: "com.thermal.pir206.1"

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x02  OUT
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0200 (512)
bInterval:            0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x82  IN
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0200 (512)
bInterval:            0x00
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: waldo on October 20, 2014, 11:43:43 pm
There have been reports of flakiness on other platforms, in particular Samsung S3, and a message on their facebook page indicates that they have found some issues and will be issuing an update soon.

I can confirm that it works fine on my Moto X but when the same unit is plugged into a S4 Mini, it acts as if the Seek camera is not plugged in.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 21, 2014, 12:48:37 am
Ok, I have captures!

Unfortunately I didn't log the firmware update process that happens on the first boot, but the APK contains that image anyway...

You need Total Phase Data Center to read these captures. You can download it from the offiical site, or i have it already here:
http://retroactive.be/data-center-dinwos-i686-v6.61.zip (http://retroactive.be/data-center-windows-i686-v6.61.zip)

http://retroactive.be/1.tdc (http://retroactive.be/1.tdc)
http://retroactive.be/2.tdc (http://retroactive.be/2.tdc)
http://retroactive.be/3.tdc (http://retroactive.be/3.tdc) (contains the enumeration process)
http://retroactive.be/4.tdc (http://retroactive.be/4.tdc)

Raw binary dump of 4.tdc, you may be able to find image boundaries and convert the image directly:
http://retroactive.be/pir206_cap.bin (http://retroactive.be/pir206_cap.bin)

Using these caps and some libusb code it should be possible to have it working on any PC.


It seems extremely simple:
1. Write control transfer on EP0: 0xC0 7E 00 00 (probably does shutter calibration)
2. Read entire frame from EP1. Repeat for a few seconds then recal
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: lain on October 21, 2014, 05:05:04 am
Just took a quick poke at marshallh's 4.tdc capture (no particular reason I chose to poke that one).
Hi marshallh *waves back* seems the brief video in 4.tdc came through nicely  ;)
 :-/O
Frame size is 64896 bytes, there is no header. Frames are sent at roughly 8fps in the 4.tdc capture, didn't look closely at others. The control transfer is a frame request, it's sent before every frame so I don't think it's a shutter calibration request.

Frame consists of 208x156 pixels, each pixel is 16bits, with only 14bit effective. Little endian.
The last 2 columns are not image data:
What's weird is these extremely low value (often 0000h) pixels, which are pretty uniformly spread throughout the frame... See attached seek-0.png frame for an example which has been auto-level'd to make them more obvious. Maybe calibration pixels of some sort? I'm really not sure at all. They seem to be in fixed positions throughout the image though, across the entire image stream in 4.tdc. No time to investigate closer.

The B&W images were created by dumping the frame endpoint data to a .bin file, then using this command (ImageMagick convert):
Code: [Select]
convert -depth 16 -endian lsb -size 208x156 gray:epdump.bin -auto-level seek.pngIf epdump.bin contains many images (dump an entire stream) this will dump all of them to separate files named seek-0.png, seek-1.png, etc.

The color image was trickier. The images this thing spits out are probably straight off the sensor with zero processing -- they're noisy as hell, unlike the FLIR ONE's image stream which is pre-digested by the Lepton core. This means the flat field correction and such is likely done in software, not even in the Seek itself. So to get the color image, I applied some manual level adjustments as I think the dark pixels were throwing off convert's auto leveling... then I took a frame from the start of 4.tdc which looked very uniform and subtracted the two frames. From there I colorized it with the typical "ironbow" palette again using convert:
Code: [Select]
convert marshallh-wave.png ..\palette.png -clut marshallh-wave-colorized.png
Anyway, no time to poke this further tonight but thought I'd share my findings. Hope it helps!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 21, 2014, 05:16:52 am
Well that makes me feel a lot better, I was getting basically the exact reasult and wondering what the hell was wrong. I guess the missing pixels are just interpolated in software. SW games seem to be the huge thing here.

Even my nice NEC camera has a very noise imagery with no filtering. In minimal filtering mode it runs 5 times 9fps (45fps) and downsamples to 9fps. Explains why motion is blurry as hell on the Seek.
Now to see if the 9fps limit is done in the ARM or sensor itself...
In the FW there are references to various DACs, probalby the MCU does various tweaking at runtime to babysit the sensor. If it's low level enough we can whack the sensor harder and get more detail at the same fps. The annoying auto-cal every 5 seconds is also extremely annoying

It seems like the sw just bangs away at the endpoint... absolutely gobs of NRDYs in the logs. Maybe they should've spent 5 minutes writing a status on the other completely unused endpoint?

Filtered
(http://i.imgur.com/EOBWWZN.png)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 21, 2014, 07:34:10 am
Low values probably dead pixels - if they want to keep costs low, they wouldn't want to scrap sensors with bad pixels.
 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 21, 2014, 02:34:03 pm
Plugging it into a linux desktop lsusb produced: Bus 002 Device 006: ID 289d:0010
Did you checked what dmesg shows on its output?
There is some info about Linux USB OTG: http://www.kernel.org/doc/htmldocs/gadget/otg.html (http://www.kernel.org/doc/htmldocs/gadget/otg.html) .

Didn't you tried to run some video capture software under Linux?  >:D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: cynfab on October 21, 2014, 03:13:49 pm
I was able to get the seek app running on my Nexus 7 to the same extent as on my Radxa Rock. It turns out that my micro USB extension cables don't seem work quite right. In any case, I was able to run adb via wifi to my Nexus 7 and here is a logcat capture from about the time I allowed the app to use the USB.

Code: [Select]
D/ConnectivityService(  489): Done.
D/ConnectivityService(  489): Setting timer for 720seconds
I/ServiceDumpSys(  887): dumping service [account]
D/dalvikvm(  887): GC_FOR_ALLOC freed 246K, 7% free 9225K/9904K, paused 31ms, total 31ms
D/libgps  (  489): proxy_gps_inject_location()
I/GCoreUlr(  983): Successfully inserted location
I/GCoreUlr(  983): Not calling LocationReportingService, hasMoved: false, elapsed millis: 3015626, request: Tablet
W/UsbSettingsManager(  489): no meta-data for ResolveInfo{426a8bf8 com.estrongs.android.pop/.view.FileExplorerActivity m=0x108000}
W/ContextImpl(  489): Calling a method in the system process without a qualified user: android.app.ContextImpl.sendBroadcast:1131 com.android.server.usb.UsbSettingsManager.deviceAttached:621 com.android.server.usb.UsbHostManager.usbDeviceAdded:156 com.android.server.usb.UsbHostManager.monitorUsbHostBus:-2 com.android.server.usb.UsbHostManager.access$000:38
I/ActivityManager(  489): START u0 {flg=0x10000000 cmp=com.android.systemui/.usb.UsbPermissionActivity (has extras)} from pid 489
I/ActivityManager(  489): START u0 {flg=0x10000000 cmp=com.android.systemui/.usb.UsbConfirmActivity (has extras)} from pid 489
I/ActivityManager(  489): Displayed com.android.systemui/.usb.UsbConfirmActivity: +121ms
I/ActivityManager(  489): Displayed com.android.systemui/.usb.UsbPermissionActivity: +122ms
V/GmsNetworkLocationProvi(  983): onSetRequest: ProviderRequestUnbundled, reportLocation is true and interval is 120000
V/GmsNetworkLocationProvi(  983): SET-REQUEST
V/GmsNetworkLocationProvi(  983): in Handler: ProviderRequestUnbundled, reportLocation is true and interval is 120000
W/InputMethodManagerService(  489): Window already focused, ignoring focus gain of: com.android.internal.view.IInputMethodClient$Stub$Proxy@42650200 attribute=null, token = android.os.BinderProxy@426e4510
W/GA-SERVICE(  887): Thread[Thread-546,5,main]:  Using destination https://ssl.google-analytics.com
D/Grafika (11376): EGLContext created, client version 2
D/dalvikvm(11376): GC_CONCURRENT freed 12062K, 35% free 32240K/49316K, paused 2ms+5ms, total 54ms
D/dalvikvm(11376): WAIT_FOR_CONCURRENT_GC blocked 22ms
W/GA-SERVICE(  887): Thread[Thread-546,5,main]:  Using destination https://ssl.google-analytics.com
D/dalvikvm(11376): GC_CONCURRENT freed 4139K, 27% free 36233K/49316K, paused 2ms+4ms, total 39ms
D/dalvikvm(11376): WAIT_FOR_CONCURRENT_GC blocked 33ms
V/GmsNetworkLocationProvi(  983): onSetRequest: ProviderRequestUnbundled, reportLocation is true and interval is 120000
V/GmsNetworkLocationProvi(  983): SET-REQUEST
V/GmsNetworkLocationProvi(  983): in Handler: ProviderRequestUnbundled, reportLocation is true and interval is 120000
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/dalvikvm(  983): GC_CONCURRENT freed 597K, 12% free 9484K/10724K, paused 3ms+4ms, total 29ms
D/dalvikvm(  983): WAIT_FOR_CONCURRENT_GC blocked 20ms
D/libgps  (  489): proxy_gps_inject_location()
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/Seekware(11376): Begin ThermographyCalc
D/Seekware(11376): Finished ThermographyCalc
D/Seekware(11376): Begin ImageProcess
D/Seekware(11376): Finished ImageProcess
D/Seekware(11376): Begin Colorize
D/Seekware(11376): Finish Colorize
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/Seekware(11376): Begin ThermographyCalc
D/Seekware(11376): Finished ThermographyCalc
D/Seekware(11376): Begin ImageProcess
D/Seekware(11376): Finished ImageProcess
D/Seekware(11376): Begin Colorize
D/Seekware(11376): Finish Colorize
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): close
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/UsbRequestJNI(11376): init
D/Seekware(11376): Begin ThermographyCalc
D/Seekware(11376): Finished ThermographyCalc
D/Seekware(11376): Begin ImageProcess
D/Seekware(11376): Finished ImageProcess
D/Seekware(11376): Begin Colorize
D/Seekware(11376): Finish Colorize

This goes on and on forever...

Hope this is useful to someone

   ...ken...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: kwallen on October 21, 2014, 03:32:56 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/PDDU1hP.jpg)

Empty space where Lightning<>USB bridge interface sits.

Where are you suggesting the Lighting bridge would go in that? I don't see any obvious empty spots.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 21, 2014, 05:08:18 pm
Directly over the flex pcb
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 21, 2014, 05:09:02 pm
Tell me the lens holder isn't styrofoam, please...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 21, 2014, 05:19:04 pm
Tell me the lens holder isn't styrofoam, please...
Silicone dust shield, white plastic lens holder. It's quite solid
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: lain on October 21, 2014, 05:40:11 pm
Where are you suggesting the Lighting bridge would go in that? I don't see any obvious empty spots.
If you mean the Lightning IC for iOS devices, it could be like the FLIR ONE which has the Lightning IC in the Lightning connector assembly itself. From what I could tell on the FLIR ONE it's just USB pass-through with some basic comms to tell the iDevice that a peripheral is attached.

Low values probably dead pixels - if they want to keep costs low, they wouldn't want to scrap sensors with bad pixels.
There are definitely some dead pixels, but there are also low value pixels which occur regularly, every 28 pixels, forming broken diagonal lines across the image. I guess it's still possible those are dead pixels but that pattern would be quite a coincidence  :o

Can we get someone else with a Seek to dump some images and compare the pattern?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 21, 2014, 05:42:52 pm
Quote
If you mean the Lightning IC for iOS devices, it could be like the FLIR ONE which has the Lightning IC in the Lightning connector assembly itself. From what I could tell on the FLIR ONE it's just USB pass-through with some basic comms to tell the iDevice that a peripheral is attached.
There is an unpopulated 8 pin chip on the opposite side to the flex

Quote
There are definitely some dead pixels, but there are also low value pixels which occur regularly, every 28 pixels, forming broken diagonal lines across the image. I guess it's still possible those are dead pixels but that pattern would be quite a coincidence  :o
Embedded reference dark pixels?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: lain on October 21, 2014, 05:57:01 pm
Quote
If you mean the Lightning IC for iOS devices, it could be like the FLIR ONE which has the Lightning IC in the Lightning connector assembly itself. From what I could tell on the FLIR ONE it's just USB pass-through with some basic comms to tell the iDevice that a peripheral is attached.
There is an unpopulated 8 pin chip on the opposite side to the flex
D'oh! I missed that.

Quote
There are definitely some dead pixels, but there are also low value pixels which occur regularly, every 28 pixels, forming broken diagonal lines across the image. I guess it's still possible those are dead pixels but that pattern would be quite a coincidence  :o
Embedded reference dark pixels?
Since not all are exactly 0, that would be my guess as well.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on October 21, 2014, 07:07:48 pm
I tried to generate the images from the usb dump myself. Not easy to remove all the noise.
I did notice that the noise seems to change after each reference frame. Since these data are presumably unprocessed raw data, why does the image change significantly? There are quite a few pixels with high values in each frame and after the reference frame they change to almost the lowest values.
The last word of each line seems to be constant on all frames. The other word could be the avarage line value. Checksum is unlikely, there is a visible trend over all frames.

There is really litte stuff on the board. The sensor has its own ground plane. It seems that even all traces are decoupled with resistors. Probably to create a thermal island with no thermal gradients.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: tom66 on October 21, 2014, 09:14:48 pm
I wonder who makes the sensor.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 21, 2014, 09:35:25 pm
I wonder who makes the sensor.

Freescale
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 22, 2014, 03:01:37 am
Downloading 4.tcd but it's huge (151MB) is that base64 encoded or something even so it's way too big to be raw data, maybe I should have gone for the bin file instead ;)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 22, 2014, 03:52:42 am
Several seconds of all bus data, of course it's going to be huge. You don't want to know how big USB3 logs get to be...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 22, 2014, 06:10:30 am
Since these data are presumably unprocessed raw data, why does the image change significantly?
It may be wrong assumption while there is quite powerfull IC MCU ARM ROMLESS 100TFBGA digikey: NXP LPC4320FET100 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LPC4320FET100,551/568-9456-ND/2677579)  ;)

Latest datasheet linked from Digikey: LPC18X0,LPC43X0 IRC Update 22/Aug/2014 (http://media.digikey.com/pdf/PCNs/NXP/201408013F01.pdf)
Update: Above some production notice of IRC details changed.
Its NXP page there:
http://www.nxp.com/products/microcontrollers/cortex_m4/lpc4300/LPC4320FET100.html (http://www.nxp.com/products/microcontrollers/cortex_m4/lpc4300/LPC4320FET100.html)
Its datasheet: http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/LPC4350_30_20_10.pdf (http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/LPC4350_30_20_10.pdf)

It would be very interesting to.... disassemble its ARM program code, but where it is -on external flash IC?  >:D

BTW: It costs on Digikey <$10 and arount $4 for bigger volume. Quite nice MCU-maybe it is time to do some ARM development  ::) 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sgstair on October 22, 2014, 07:33:08 am
I've built some PC side library code to do really basic frame acquisition and calibration based on the data from marshallh's captures, feel free to try it:
https://github.com/sgstair/winusbdotnet

It's winusb based, you should use Zadig to install the winusb driver on the "iAP interface" device that enumerates.

It's not perfect or polished but it does work, I'll probably continue to improve it as I have time.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 22, 2014, 07:59:16 am
Since these data are presumably unprocessed raw data, why does the image change significantly?
It may be wrong assumption while there is quite powerfull IC MCU ARM ROMLESS 100TFBGA digikey: NXP LPC4320FET100 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LPC4320FET100,551/568-9456-ND/2677579)  ;)

Latest datasheet linked from Digikey: LPC18X0,LPC43X0 IRC Update 22/Aug/2014 (http://media.digikey.com/pdf/PCNs/NXP/201408013F01.pdf)
Update: Above some production notice of IRC details changed.
Its NXP page there:
http://www.nxp.com/products/microcontrollers/cortex_m4/lpc4300/LPC4320FET100.html (http://www.nxp.com/products/microcontrollers/cortex_m4/lpc4300/LPC4320FET100.html)
Its datasheet: http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/LPC4350_30_20_10.pdf (http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/LPC4350_30_20_10.pdf)

It would be very interesting to.... disassemble its ARM program code, but where it is -on external flash IC?  >:D

BTW: It costs on Digikey <$10 and arount $4 for bigger volume. Quite nice MCU-maybe it is time to do some ARM development  ::)
Code is stored in an external SPI flash, so should be pretty accessible, probably via the test pads.  ISTR someone said there was a firmware image file in the .APK package.
Souldn't be too hard to write oyur own code to run on it - Once I have all the units I have on order I may sacrifice one to trace out a schematic.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 22, 2014, 05:32:27 pm
I got it today, doesn't work on my 1st generation NVidia Shield but it works on the wife's phone.

Picture of one of my dogs.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=114169;image)

Question: How do you open that protective case? its like a jigsaw puzzle to me.

Edit: got it, was just hard to release the latch
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sacherjj on October 22, 2014, 05:53:49 pm
Got mine in today.  Picture is a little noisier than I hoped, but about what I expected.  Tried to measure a 650F soldering iron.  Set the emissivity to stainless steel.  Highest I saw was 350F.  Though the spec went to 330 C ~ 626 F.  Figured this would max it.  Hmm..
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sgstair on October 22, 2014, 06:42:15 pm
You can turn off the watermark in the app options.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: firehopper on October 22, 2014, 07:20:02 pm
on the one image of the internals, it looks like the pins for that coil are not soldered to the board. am I the only one to notice that?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on October 22, 2014, 07:28:12 pm
on the one image of the internals, it looks like the pins for that coil are not soldered to the board. am I the only one to notice that?
I noticed that too, it makes sense: This board is build for lowest price. The coil seems to be pressed into the board. This can be done with a machine, soldering coil contacts is often done by hand.
If done properly, pressfit contacts aremore robust than soldering. This technique is widely used in automtive electronics because it is much more tolerant to vibrations than solder connections.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 22, 2014, 07:49:58 pm
on the one image of the internals, it looks like the pins for that coil are not soldered to the board. am I the only one to notice that?
I noticed that too, it makes sense: This board is build for lowest price. The coil seems to be pressed into the board. This can be done with a machine, soldering coil contacts is often done by hand.
If done properly, pressfit contacts aremore robust than soldering. This technique is widely used in automtive electronics because it is much more tolerant to vibrations than solder connections.

It could also be pin in hole reflow (on top only).
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sacherjj on October 22, 2014, 08:03:16 pm
Watermarking the images like that is a very obnoxious move from Seek Thermal.

The app has options to turn this off and to turn on both time/date and location watermarking.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 22, 2014, 10:02:54 pm
on the one image of the internals, it looks like the pins for that coil are not soldered to the board. am I the only one to notice that?
I noticed that too, it makes sense: This board is build for lowest price. The coil seems to be pressed into the board. This can be done with a machine, soldering coil contacts is often done by hand.
If done properly, pressfit contacts aremore robust than soldering. This technique is widely used in automtive electronics because it is much more tolerant to vibrations than solder connections.

It could also be pin in hole reflow (on top only).
No, it's definitely pressfit (I've had it out) - the pin is split in the middle to provide tension
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 22, 2014, 10:11:11 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/Rj5JBYb.png)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 22, 2014, 11:18:10 pm
Picture of one of my dogs.
...
img_thermal1915628406.jpg (35.53 kB, 624x832 - viewed 193 times.)
Why this image has bigger resolution than Seek Thermal sensor capability?
It is resized to the size of phone screen size, so no way to get oryginal not resized thermal image on native sensor resolution?  :-//

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 22, 2014, 11:22:34 pm
it's exactly 4 times wider and 4 times taller than the output from the sensor.

If it was only 156x208 it would be too tiny to display, also I'm not sure what are they doing with the extra 2 rows that don't give you actual sensor output.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 22, 2014, 11:24:26 pm
process/batch variation? or die revs?

(http://i.imgur.com/TQlDp7g.png)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 23, 2014, 12:47:46 am
Back home I tried the shield gen 1 (Tegra 4) again, video preview doesn't work but that is common since Nvidia doesn't support screen recorders and access to the buffer directly it seems.

But I took a snapshot and it works. But, the camera is facing the clamshell so I need an extension cord, some phones that support the camera have the usb mounted in such a way that will face you, so you need a 180 adaptor or an micro usb extension cord.

But since I have a nook color laying around I'm going to install CM 11 (kit kat 4.4) and give that a try.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ebeall on October 23, 2014, 02:27:15 am
Pretty quick for a preview of the tear-down to come from mikeselectricstuff! I got mine too (I'm pretty sure that everybody selling cores or making imagers got one), there's certainly more image noise than advertised, but then again, nobody else is selling at $200.

The nonuniformity onset is pretty fast, requiring a frequent shutter. Does anyone here know how long those types of actuators tend to last? Best case, worst case? Ideally, I'd like to know how many cycles the loop coil actuator is rated at, so I know how heavily it can be used (may have to ask Seek for the spec).
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 23, 2014, 06:57:31 am
process/batch variation? or die revs?
Did you tried to make more thermal image shots at different ambient temperatures just to see if these hexagonal sensor pixels patterns maybe changes somehow and it is temperature dependent or is consistent and unique to given Seek Thermal sensor-something like its footprint?

If it was only 156x208 it would be too tiny to display....
Operating system software could simply resize 208x156 it to fit into display, but we still could  be able to save oryginal one.

There must be something else behind this and it is interesting that this is 4 times bigger...
BTW: We are talking about iPhone version image only or Android versions has the same 4 times bigger thermal output images available to save?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 23, 2014, 07:13:35 am
@marshallh, @sgstair,

what are your order numbers?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 23, 2014, 07:14:53 am
Oh and hey Erik,

welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sgstair on October 23, 2014, 08:01:50 am
@callipso - It's between 350 and 375
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 23, 2014, 08:48:05 am
Teardown delayed due to having to rent a different phone from Ebay to get it running.. hopefully this weekend.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 23, 2014, 09:39:55 am
Got 4.3 installed on Nook Color but no OTG support on the kernel :(
Then got 4.3 installed on a MyTouch 4G and again no OTG support :(

CyanogenMod drops support , last version for the Nook Color with OTG capabilities was Jellybean but not 4.3.

I guess I'm going to have to resort to Ebay after all, or tell my wife she can get a new phone so I can use her Galaxy S4.

I can use the Shield (Gen1) but no live update and for that I have to order a male to female OTG data cable extension, otherwise half of the image lands on the clamshell, unless I put a wireless controller and hook it via HDMI in console mode, but that's crazy!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 23, 2014, 09:47:22 am
First phone I tried was Galaxy S3 mini with Cyanogenmod, just received a Moto G which works :D

Bit busy building a 6,000 LED display at the moment so may take a couple of days before serious analysis....
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 23, 2014, 10:04:07 am
@Mike,

I own a Moto G so I am glad to hear that it works OK with the SEEK.  :-+

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 23, 2014, 10:22:12 am
When my SEEK arrives I will create some comparison images using the same thermal target and a selection of my thermal cameras. I have 160x120 and 320x240 resolution FLIR, NEC & TESTO cameras. It will be interesting to see how the images compare to the SEEK in terms of detail and noise. As previously stated, we are working with a new Generation 1 budget imager FPA and likely little better than BETA software for processing. Hopefully performance will keep improving. $200 is still great value for such technology  :-+

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on October 23, 2014, 11:37:15 am
on the one image of the internals, it looks like the pins for that coil are not soldered to the board. am I the only one to notice that?
I noticed that too, it makes sense: This board is build for lowest price. The coil seems to be pressed into the board. This can be done with a machine, soldering coil contacts is often done by hand.
If done properly, pressfit contacts aremore robust than soldering. This technique is widely used in automtive electronics because it is much more tolerant to vibrations than solder connections.
After thinking again, the press fit mounting has probably another reason:
In their bonding video you can see, all other parts are beeing already soldered when the sensor is beeing bonded. All other bonding videos I have seen, did bonding before soldering all other parts. Probably the sensor can not survive the high soldering temperature. Therefore wavesoldering the shutter coil connector is not possible. The USB cable is the only part soldered with the sensor mounted on the board, but this should not be a problem, because it is at the other end of the board and uses a different soldering technique.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Sensor Geek on October 23, 2014, 11:38:08 am
Works well with Samsung S4 (stock, not rooted or unlocked), same with Samsung Nexus 10 tablet (reversed connection).

Adapter cable below worked on both the S4 and the Nexus 10, although it was only needed on the tablet due to reversed connector. I couldn't locate a 180 adapter. It's difficult holding at the end of a cable and doing so likely effects the image quality due to heating from my hand.

YCS Basics 6 inch USB Micro male to female OTG extension cable ($5.39 shipped) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HAOK7XE)

Images have a surprising amount of noise unless there's a wide thermal rage in the image and I'm not convinced that the calibration shutter is working correctly. It clicks every few seconds and the image pauses, but there is a persistent gradient over the image at times that doesn't correlate at all with the scene. I see no improvement in the image after each calibration. Maybe it's too subtle of a change for my old eyes.

For example, after viewing a coffee cup from about 20cm distant, then place the camera face-down against any surface, or viewing anything that's thermally consistent, I get these two images. The gradient is ever present unless I again view something with a lot of thermal variation.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sacherjj on October 23, 2014, 11:42:28 am
I see the calibration sensor clicking more often in a very little temperature difference scene.  I'm guessing that it is what gain is pulled out of the sensor, to find differences in temps.  I don't get frequent shutter action with a widely varying scene.

It was interesting to see a 4 degree temperature difference in the main conduit feeding our server room. 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 23, 2014, 11:56:00 am
Thermal gradient across the microbolometer may be as a result of less than good calibration by teh OEM. Microbolometer design issues (non temperature stabilised remember) or even localised heat sources on the PCB. One of the issues of mounting the microbolometer die on the same PCB as other heat producing components is thermal creep along the PCB ground plane to the sensor caused 'plumes' on one or more sides of the image.  As has already been eluded to, the temperature span setting of the camera has a significant effect on the noise content visible. Noise is most noticeable at small thermal spans. Even my $56K cameras show noise at a 2C span. This is why many sample images use quite large spans to make the images more pleasing to the eye. From a thermography perspective detail is better than pretty pictures and noise is a fact of life that is accepted. Over processed noise filtered, 'soft' images are often less useful to a thermographer but good fro artistic purposes !

It would be interesting to know how SEEK calibrate these cameras or whether they are using some form of manufacturing/processing technique to avoid this time hungry element of the normal  manufacturing process. We could be seeing a pretty course calibration table in the images that needs regular NUC/FPC operations in order to provide acceptable images. I am surprised that the shutter is operating so regularly. That is not great news and seems to suggest a VERY unstable microbolometer that needs regular FPC events to maintain a reasonably equalised pixel output.

For Mike and those with a SEEK that has been taken apart.... it would be interesting to see a thermal image of the SEEK PCB (front and rear) when running to see if the PCB is suffering significant thermal creep towards the microbolometer.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 23, 2014, 01:18:31 pm
For quite some time I've been hoping this day - the one Aurora shows off his TICs will come  >:D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 23, 2014, 01:31:21 pm
For Mike and those with a SEEK that has been taken apart.... it would be interesting to see a thermal image of the SEEK PCB (front and rear) when running to see if the PCB is suffering significant thermal creep towards the microbolometer.

Oh yeah, Mike, could you FireFlir it in the teardown video?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 23, 2014, 01:47:21 pm
There is a break in the groundplane which could be partly for thermal reasons, but if they were serious I'd have expected to see a slot or line of holes as well.
However solid copper on an inner layer under the sensor may also be a good way to avoid too much of a thermal gradient across the sensor
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 23, 2014, 01:49:06 pm
...just received a Moto G which works :D

Not so bad phone... it has  Motorola Moto G (http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g-5831.php)
Quote
"Radio   FM radio"
  :-DD

More serious it looks like it has autofocus in its 5MP builtin camera Photo Quality Comparison (http://www.gsmarena.com/piccmp.php3?idType=1&idPhone1=5831&idPhone2=6376&idPhone3=6373)
Quote
5 MP, 2592 ? 1944 pixels, autofocus, LED flash

Display:
Quote
720 x 1280 pixels, 4.5 inches (~326 ppi pixel density)

We'll see what this crappy Seek Thermal app will allow to save for futher analysis  >:D

It has USB:
Quote
microUSB v2.0, USB Host
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go)
Quote
USB OTG is a part of a supplement[1] to the Universal Serial Bus (USB) 2.0 specification originally agreed upon in late 2001 and later revised
This microUSB v.20 is the key that that this thermal camera can work, or this is also Android version issue?

Just trying to figure out how to ensure before buying Android tablet or phone that this Seek Thermal dongle will work?

BTW:
They says that Moto G has
Quote
GPS     Yes, with A-GPS, GLONASS
It has builtin one or this is some kind of external device?


Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 23, 2014, 04:21:03 pm
I am no Android 'fan boy' and the MOTO G is my first smart phone. I bought it because it offered great build quality combined with superb capabilities for a very reasonable price. Far cheaper than Samsung or Apple products of similar spec. A mobile phone geek recently told me it won awards for best budget mobile phone in 2013 AND 2014.... thats a long reign in modern mobile technology terms.

My Motorola MOTO G comes with a decent auto focus camera (confirmed in tests) and a GPS that tells the OS where the camera is and interacts with apps. It is super responsive to screen inputs and apps run smoothly due to the powerful quad (?) processor.

I heard rumours that the MOTO G is a Google flagship product as they develipoed it with Motorola to impress the market. No idea if true though but it does seem to be an awful lot of phone for the asking price of around GBP150 without contract. I am paying GBP12.50 for 24 months on contract (with TESCO) and receive the phone at no additional cost + 500Mb free data + 500 free texts + 500 minutes free talk time per month. I barely use any of the allowance as I tend to use a phone as just a phone or data via Wi-Fi AP's, but that is changing with time and I have plenty of allowance to play with.

Most importantly to this discussion..... SEEK state that the camera is compatible withe the MOTO G phone.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 23, 2014, 04:58:31 pm
Worked first time on Moto G - all I had to do was copy the .apt by plugging into PC, download a file manager from Google Play so I could find it (there may be another way but I don't know Android), and change a setting to allow apps from untrusted sources.

What I  don't really understand is why Seek want you to register - at least you can do 'later..' - hope this doesn't get naggy!
 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 23, 2014, 06:49:41 pm
My Motorola MOTO G comes with a decent auto focus camera (confirmed in tests) and a GPS that tells the OS where the camera is and interacts with apps.
From link above to gsmarena.com
Quote
Sensors    Accelerometer, proximity, compass
it has also accelerometer and compass, so with GPS live data, probably it is possible to make those Google street view images and send directly via internet to their website  ;)

But when we go into conspiracy theory this device is also perfect for NSA to spy its owners while they know where you are and what are you doing based on accelerometer data and GSM voice and 5MP camera for live coverage in NSA  :-DD

Maybe worth to buy one-with custom DIY solar cells to charge without wires it could be quite nity  8)

It could be nice hack its builtin camera and add edges to Seek Thermal images (this thing is powerfull so easy task), but this autofocus sounds strange for the first time-maybe it is possible control it via Android interface?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 23, 2014, 07:08:59 pm
What I  don't really understand is why Seek want you to register - at least you can do 'later..' - hope this doesn't get naggy!

That unfortunately is quite simple. When you buy consumer "smart-device", you're not simply buying a piece of equipment. You are buying the manufacturer's way of getting closer to your personal info, be it your email address, your physical location, your personal comms, browsing history or your brand preferences. This data is then sold in bulk.

This is the very same thing - you buy a cheap TIC and they get to place their closed-source code into something you carry 24/7 with you.

I'm not saying it's not possible for tyrian to be an exception (though that would be unlikely), all I'm saying is that this is a common industry practice.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 23, 2014, 07:19:34 pm
@ Callipso,

I wasn't aware that you wanted sample pictures from my various thermal cameras.

Have you any particular preferences i.e target type, temp span etc. A kettle is an easy target that makes most TIC's look pretty decent. Harder targets are those with small temperature gradients across their surfaces or against background.

I will be happy to produce images from examples of the following: 

1. FLIR PM570 (1st Gen Microbolometer) 320x240
2. FLIR PM695 (3rd Gen Microbolometer) 320x240
3. FLIR E4 320x240
4. NEC TH7102 (Boeing Microbolometer) 320x240
5. NEC/Mikron F30S 160x120
6. Testo 880-1 160x120

I have other camera models but some share the same imager hardware as those above and are just in different cases, and some do not offer digital image storage for upload here (firefighting cameras).
I now own 26 TIC's with a 27th (A Bosch MIC 412) coming to me next week from Cornwall. It will be 28 when the SEEK arrives. A pretty good reference collection for comparison work  ;D

Let me know what you want to see and I will sort it out this weekend after I return from my Cruise.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 23, 2014, 07:28:09 pm
What I  don't really understand is why Seek want you to register - at least you can do 'later..' - hope this doesn't get naggy!

That unfortunately is quite simple. When you buy consumer "smart-device", you're not simply buying a piece of equipment. You are buying the manufacturer's way of getting closer to your personal info, be it your email address, your physical location, your personal comms, browsing history or your brand preferences. This data is then sold in bulk.

This is the very same thing - you buy a cheap TIC and they get to place their closed-source code into something you carry 24/7 with you.

I'm not saying it's not possible for tyrian to be an exception (though that would be unlikely), all I'm saying is that this is a common industry practice.

The good thing about the app is that once you dismiss it, it doesn't ask you again, at least not right away that I can tell. But if you clear the application cache then it will ask you again when you relaunch the application.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 23, 2014, 07:42:26 pm
@Aurora,

I don't want you to do it, I'm just VERY curious, as I know you have an impressive collection...

If it wouldn't be much of a bother, I think a fresh new thread with some sample pics from some of them would be nice, like a low contrast scene, high contrast scene, tele, wide, etc....
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 23, 2014, 08:02:45 pm
@Callipso,

Thanks for clarifying  :)

I had thought of starting a separate thread with some reference thermal images from a range of my thermal cameras so that people could see how the technology has evolved plus the good, the bad and the ugly of the technology (even at over $50K). I was afraid it could be seen as bragging though so did not do it. I collect and repair thermal imaging technology so have quite a collection as a result. My collection includes the first truly portable thermal cameras through to the FLIR E4. Some are designed for industry, others for fire fighting or specialist scientific/R&D use. I also own some nice auxiliary lenses  :)

If members of this forum wish me to show pictures of my cameras and images taken with them, I am more than happy to do so if it is taken i n the spirit in which it is provided and not seen as me bragging about how many thermal cameras I own !

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 23, 2014, 08:11:28 pm
Mike,

You made mention of registering your SEEK app and from what you said this seemed to be an issue. Do you think SEEK will refuse to register the app for UK users as they have not released it here yet ? It would be very petty for SEEK to refuse registration of a personal import unit. It would lower my view of a company that claims that it wishes to bring affordable thermal cameras to the masses.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 23, 2014, 08:13:23 pm
Mike,

You made mention of registering your SEEK app and from what you said this seemed to be an issue. Do you think SEEK will refuse to register the app for UK users as they have not released it here yet ? It would be very petty for SEEK to refuse registration of a personal import unit. It would lower my view of a company that claims that it wishes to bring affordable thermal cameras to the masses.

Aurora
No idea - I don't see any reason to register it so can't see it being a problem. My guess is they'll start EU shipping once they clear the US backlog.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 23, 2014, 08:40:46 pm
Just played with this Seek Thermal "oryginal sensor" image provided by @marshallh and resized down to 208x156 pixels size without any interpolation, since this include at post had resolution 3x bigger (624x468).
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=114406)
Than programmed my old school CITIZEN SRP-75 to calculate distances between those closest 3 triangle black dots, which looked like hexagon vertexes and bingo, it looks like distance between those dots is around: 4.1-4.2 pixels (squared is exactly 17-18, sqrt gives around 4 pixels distance)

So, when we know this it is easy to find in this image another black pixels which do not fit into this hexagon pattern-dead pixels marked them in red there as example?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=114408)

Update: Another part of this sensor image: marked with yellow pixel with only 28 value, but red was black (0).
Distance between other "good black" pixels around 4.1-4.2 so normal.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=114413)
Probably will write software to detect and mark to red those "dead black pixels " just by passing file name in program argument at command line of course  >:D

BTW: Do you know how do they convert this 208x156 image to this 4x times bigger (832x624) shown in a few posts above, eg, those dog and coffe cup thermal shots?


Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 23, 2014, 08:52:13 pm
@eneuro,

nice to see a fellow Linux user...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 23, 2014, 09:06:58 pm
@callipso
Yep, still using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FVWM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FVWM) X windows manager  ;)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 24, 2014, 08:58:15 am
Hardcore stuff man, I use just fluxbox...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 24, 2014, 10:01:23 am
Seek Thermal camera teardown part 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cr8oZck5m8#ws)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Stigaard on October 24, 2014, 11:16:19 am
Nice video Mike :-+
I assume that since you ended up going through the soldermask that the relevant sensor signals was not available on any test points?
You seem to have been looking quite a bit at different lenses for pcb inspection if I remember correctly you were also looking in to it for the Flir E4.
Which focal length were you using for testing in this video and did that seem like a good fit?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: iRad on October 24, 2014, 12:36:52 pm
Excellent video Mike!  :-+
I'm still waiting for my iOS version of the camera...  :(
I have an early order number, so hope to get it soon and can verify the Apple ID chip. I plan to break out a USB from the board on mine so I can have a dual use version of the camera...  8)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 24, 2014, 02:39:32 pm
@Mike  :-+

Made some small development and trying to teardown this Seek Thermal sensor image  >:D
Quote
$ file libseekthermal.so.1.0.1
libseekthermal.so.1.0.1: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (GNU/Linux), dynamically linked, not stripped
For the moment automated software marked those black sensor data pixels with RGB green and now will try to output my own version of thermal imaginery using simple image processing tools to fill those black pixels with some usefull values  and detect bad pixels and mark them red
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=114466)
It is interesting how Seek Thermal deals with those black pixels on his output thermal images 4x bigger ::)
Do not care to much about it for yhe moment while will try to make my own version od thermal image based on this input data...and it so close  8)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 24, 2014, 03:15:34 pm
Could the dot-grid maybe be a sort of watermarking - protection against use without the supplied app?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 24, 2014, 07:25:44 pm
Mike, neat stuff. I take that just powering up the device doesn't spew the raw data until it's initialized, right?

Can't wait for part two, it seems like tapping into that data stream would be a piece of cake to capture it on an FPGA at full frame rate and convert it to a 14 bit bus for DSP processing and then to an LCD.

But if it needs some kind of handshake (like the fixed invariant data you where probing as well) maybe it can be reproduced by the FPGA to start up the camera, maybe not allowing changes in the configuration but at least a a start.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 24, 2014, 10:24:57 pm
Mike, neat stuff. I take that just powering up the device doesn't spew the raw data until it's initialized, right?
Correct. But it's possible there might be a test mode...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 24, 2014, 10:43:15 pm
Maybe Mike will be able to capture another raw Seek Thermal thermal image for bad pixels analysis, while completed my software and made some automatic measurements how many those black dots are and which percentage looks like bad ones  :o
(http://s5.postimg.org/da1bmyijn/seek_thermal_sensor_208x156_dots_black_bad_marke.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/da1bmyijn/)
Attached also 208x156 pixels version-oryginal output from my software.
The only 5 black pixels which I marked by hand from red are those pink one on left side, while they are very close to those looking good-only a tiny 1 pixel difference detected by my automated tools  ;)
(http://s5.postimg.org/x3dffnvxj/seek_thermal_sensor_dots_bad_marked_close_to_goo.png)

There are some statistics from this image.
Quote
Seek Thermal sensor 206 x 156 black pixels: count: 2169  good: 2138  bad: 31
However, when we count those 5 pink pixels and let them be good ones, than we have in 206x156 image:
* 2143 good black pixels (2138 green+ 5 pink ) and this is what I would expect on perfect Seek Thermal sensor image raw data if all their sensors shares the same black dots pattern
* 26 bad looking (red ones)
So, when we calculate percentages we'll  get:
2143/206/156 =  6.668% good black dots on perfect sensor
and
26/2143= 1.21% bad black dots in this case  >:(

It is interesting if this is really manufacturing defects or some kind of data capture errors?  :-\
Probably more samples needed from the same camera and also other Seek Thermal sensors to investigate it futher.

Maybe someone else will include there raw data from this sensor for similar analysis.
I haven't got this thermal camera yet.

BTW: On Mike video teardown it looks like there is very downgraded efective frame rate and some kind of werid averaging with horrible pixels around thermal image, so probably they forgot to cut off rest of blured image at the edges and it creates very bad looking rectangle around thermal image  :-DD
They could simply make those pixels... black if do not wanted resize output image  :palm:

Note: Just thinking maybe those red black pixels (they had 0 value) are simply noise from sensor itself?  :-//
Difficult to say without another sensor images analysis...


Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 24, 2014, 11:00:49 pm
The almost-black dots are not all 00., they are definitely intentional.

Refer to this Xilinx patent. This shows the coverage of BGA grounding pins arranged in a "sparse chevron" pattern which reduces SSN.

(http://i.imgur.com/i4MjgbBl.png)

Each ground pin (or black dot) has 8 surrounding pins.
While the pattern is not quite the same here, similar concept.
It's my thought that the thermal sensor embeds these in the data to provide compensation for that small region of the image. What the compensation is for, I don't know.

(http://i.imgur.com/TjtvyY6.png)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 24, 2014, 11:13:08 pm
The almost-black dots are not all 00., they are definitely intentional.
On PNG image provided by you (RGBA) 8 bits per channel those black pixels marked by my tools green, red and pink had 0x00 zero the same values in RGB channels and 255 in Alpha channel  and most of them fits into this hexagon pattern.

Now it is time to try dissasemble Seek Thermal Android JNI library (*.so) and maybe will be possible also look inside dissasembled code of this MPU on Seek Thermal PCB to see what is going on there  with sensor data  >:D

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 24, 2014, 11:18:10 pm
A paper has been written on the production of smaller microbolometer pixel sizes, namely 12um. It is dated October 2012 so 12um pixels have been a possibility for some time yet have not been developed by the likes of FLIR and I am not aware of any ULIS 12um microbolometers either. Could such small pixels have performance 'issues'  I wonder. I am not a subscriber to SPIE but if anyone her is, it may make interesting reading.

http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1387338 (http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1387338)

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: OrBy on October 24, 2014, 11:22:37 pm
Perhaps the "black" pixels are for some sort of future shutter-less NUC that has not been implemented yet like the lepton?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fry-kun on October 25, 2014, 12:56:19 am
Is there a convenient connector to plug this camera into a standard laptop USB port (type A)?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 01:52:07 am
Is there a convenient connector to plug this camera into a standard laptop USB port (type A)?

A quick search found this:

http://usb.brando.com/usb-2-0-male-to-micro-b-female-adapter_p02840c0042d015.html (http://usb.brando.com/usb-2-0-male-to-micro-b-female-adapter_p02840c0042d015.html)

There has to be others as well.

My search was "usb a male to micro b female adapter" and click on images to make sure the micro b is female.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: cynfab on October 25, 2014, 02:49:41 am
Is there a convenient connector to plug this camera into a standard laptop USB port (type A)?

A quick search found this:

http://usb.brando.com/usb-2-0-male-to-micro-b-female-adapter_p02840c0042d015.html (http://usb.brando.com/usb-2-0-male-to-micro-b-female-adapter_p02840c0042d015.html)

There has to be others as well.

My search was "usb a male to micro b female adapter" and click on images to make sure the micro b is female.

Or: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009AWA3VK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009AWA3VK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

Probably made in the same factory. I got one of these and it took about 2 weeks to arrive. I figured for ~$1.50 why not...

It works fine with my Seek TC.

  ...ken....
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fry-kun on October 25, 2014, 02:50:45 am
A quick search found this:

http://usb.brando.com/usb-2-0-male-to-micro-b-female-adapter_p02840c0042d015.html (http://usb.brando.com/usb-2-0-male-to-micro-b-female-adapter_p02840c0042d015.html)

There has to be others as well.

My search was "usb a male to micro b female adapter" and click on images to make sure the micro b is female.

Awesome, thanks!
I tried searching but couldn't figure out the magic combination that didn't make me manually filter by photos (gave up after ~20min)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 03:01:40 am
Or: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009AWA3VK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009AWA3VK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

Probably made in the same factory. I got one of these and it took about 2 weeks to arrive. I figured for ~$1.50 why not...

It works fine with my Seek TC.

  ...ken....
Thanks for the link, actually that pushed me to get one for my seek to start probing the protocol, but it seems like it will come from the slow boat (delivery estimate Nov 20th to Dec 9th) but i'm in no hurry since I got this to winterize my home and I won't be messing with it until I'm done.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Sensor Geek on October 25, 2014, 12:40:53 pm
This gradient issue is pretty bad. Does anyone else experience this? Seems almost unusable for most practical situations, although I can now use this $200 camera to verify that my teapot is hot vs. using my finger before.

Here's a door with a leak around the bottom and it has a dual-flap pet door that's a little cool too. Comparing E4+ with seek (no comparison of course - to be expected), but look at what happens when I turn the Seek upside-down. Now where is the door leaking?

It seems to me this has potential to be corrected by improved calibration routines in the app/firmware, but I haven't contacted them yet to see if that's in the works. Has anyone already had that conversation with them?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on October 25, 2014, 02:30:49 pm
This gradient issue is pretty bad. Does anyone else experience this? Seems almost unusable for most practical situations, although I can now use this $200 camera to verify that my teapot is hot vs. using my finger before.

Here's a door with a leak around the bottom and it has a dual-flap pet door that's a little cool too. Comparing E4+ with seek (no comparison of course - to be expected), but look at what happens when I turn the Seek upside-down. Now where is the door leaking?

It seems to me this has potential to be corrected by improved calibration routines in the app/firmware, but I haven't contacted them yet to see if that's in the works. Has anyone already had that conversation with them?

Agree 100% with this.   This is obviously a thermal gradient since it gets worse the longer you are using it.  Makes the min/max thing useless under non-extreme circumstances.

Makes you wonder what exactly they are using the dark frame with the shutter for?   Wouldn't this record the thermal and non random noise to allow subtraction?    Hope like heck there will be a SW fix for this!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 25, 2014, 03:02:14 pm
Nothing a hacksaw and a multi conductor ribbon cable wouldn't solve  >:D

But seriously, it would be VERY useful to see if there is an issue with thermal creep on that PCB towards the microbolometer.

The less savoury possibility is that the microbolometer ROIC causes the localised heating and the camera simply cannot cope with the temperature gradient in its FFC routine. Such an issue should be correctable in software / firmware but it may be why the shutter is already operating so frequently. There is also the weird possibility that the shutter itself is the cause of the issue ! Most shutters on professional TIC's are metal. It may be that the shutter, when sitting in the rest position, is exposed to localised heating across its surface that in turn generates a temperature gradient in the FFC table and so screws up the images. Worth investigating for those who have opened their SEEK unit already and are willing to experiment.

Some simple experimentation with some freezer spray would be interesting. Spray it along the PCB between the micro and the microbolometer to create a thermal barrier to heat then see what effect it has on the image. It may well send the microbolometer in the opposite direction due to the transmitted cold ! A metal heat shunt fin attached via an electrical insulator (but thermally transmissive) to the PCB between the micro and the microbolometer is another possibility to play with but I am uncertain as to its effectiveness.

The trouble with any high sensitivity sensor is local 'pollution' of the signal it is processing. We could be seeing thermal pollution of the microbolometer and that can really only be best treated by thermal separation from the pollution source.

It will be interesting to hear what SEEK have to say on the matter as this is schoolboy physics stuff and I cannot believe that the issue went unnoticed in development. Most odd I must say.

As has been stated, an FPA with a thermal gradient across it that cannot be compensated adequately is pretty useless for anything more than toy applications.

Another test I have just though of would be to blind the camera lens with a piece of thermally opaque material. Does the thermal gradient show itself ? Remove the shutter mechanism with the blinding plate still in place to ensure that a FFC image is available to the sensor array. Does the gradient still remain ? Then cool the PCB with freezer spray in different places and watch the effect on the temperature gradient over time. Lots of basic physics fun to be had  :)

AND another thought....is heat pollution entering the shutter access port and polluting the image collected by the microbolometer ? I recall that there are open ports in the lens holder. Does the unit behave itself better if operated outside its small metal case with a fan blowing any radiated heat away from the sensor array ? Damn I wish I had my SEEK to play with !

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 25, 2014, 03:46:16 pm
For those still following.... I have had another thought on the 'plume' on the LHS of the image.... magnetic field interference.

The issue appears to occur on the side that has the shutter solenoid adjacent to it. We know that the FFC shutter is a NC type so needs power to the solenoid to pull it out of the signal path. A weird way to drive the FFC you may think, but this is sometimes done in an effort to protect the microbolometer from long term exposure to energy through the lens when not in use. Say if you left it pointing at a radiator or fire. I know that the solenoid is energised but is it a DC or high frequency AC signal ? Using an uneven duty cycle ac signal would save power but would create an alternating field in very close proximity to the microbolometer and ROIC on the FPA. Such an alternating field has the small potential to cause interference on the image data. This is normally only experienced in very high field strength environments and often presents as noise bars on the image. It is still a possibility with this new sensor technology however. The above test involving blinding of the lens, then removal of the shutter solenoid should reveal any interference issues from that component.

There is a potential flaw in my thinking however.....is the SEEK thermal lens inverting or non inverting ? If it is inverting, the 'plume' is actually occurring on the side of the microbolometer furthest away from the solenoid. The same applies to heat pollution through the shutter port etc.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: amyk on October 25, 2014, 04:10:51 pm
After seeing the pictures posted earlier I thought the sensor would be on some elevated platform above the PCB, but Mike's teardown confirms that the die is actually bonded on the PCB itself.
Quote
As has been stated, an FPA with a thermal gradient across it that cannot be compensated adequately is pretty useless for anything more than toy applications.
I think this really was intended as a "toy" product, built down to a price. (And as the comparison with Flir One shows, "resolution isn't everything" either...)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 25, 2014, 04:27:40 pm
@Amyk,

I am starting to think the same BUT for those of us willing to experiment, the SEEK may offer a good platform on which to build. It has a potentially decent microbolometer with ROIC and USB connectivity (albeit some mobile phone OTG dedicated version). That does stack up well against the FLIR One or even the bare LEPTON in terms of bang for your buck.

As a hobby project I would happily hardware modify the SEEK to see what I could get out of it in terms of performance improvement, Sadly coding is not my skill set so I would leave that to others more able than me.

Noise has always been the challenge with microbolometers.... they are a naturally noisy sensor technology that is often tamed with signal processing. This new 12um sensor array may be suffering from a flaw in its basic design however.... if so, it will always be a compromised solution. The SEEK is the MKI product and we may be at the beginning of some excellent development so no need to be down hearted  :)  I was/am more than happy to spend $200 on such a 'building block' module  :-+
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 25, 2014, 04:45:11 pm
Surely any gradient should be corrected by the NUC?
 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 25, 2014, 05:00:51 pm
@Mike,

Should but Isn't by the looks of things  ;)

The NUC calibration table is the COURSE correction element and the FFC is the FINE correction element that make up a decently equalised output from the Microbolometer. The FFC is supposed to correct for SMALL drift levels in the microbolometer. Large external thermal stimulators polluting the microbolometer can push the required correction beyond that programmed for the FFC event. The result is a non flat field  :( I would expect an 'FFC out of range' error event to be produced in a professional TIC but this is not such a camera. This may be correctable in a new firmware or software release by increasing the FFC pixel offset range but that is sticking a band aid on the problem as the cause of the non uniformity across the FPA should really be addressed.

If the FFC shutter performance is the cause of the issue then that should be fixed as it destroys the FFC effectiveness and CANNOT be compensated for adequately. It is supposed to be a flat field not a gradient field  ;D

For those wondering, a TEC attached to the PCB at the rear of the FPA is unlikely to solve the problem as it would be a relatively uniform heating/cooling area on a non uniform temperature area so a gradient would still exist, just shifted up or down in centre temperature. This would only be an idea for addressing thermal creep in the PCB anyway.

This is a neat little challenge to get ones teeth in to. First we need to identify the source/cause of the non uniformity. Hopefully it is an influence EXTERNAL to the FPA and ROIC sandwich.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 25, 2014, 05:16:13 pm
... but look at what happens when I turn the Seek upside-down. Now where is the door leaking?
Maybe there is more trivial explanation to this- some kind of weird software bug, so while such use case scenario (turning Seek up-down) is not implemented well and missed something during testing. ;)

It looks like that we need simply more raw data from this sensor to see what sensor sends to its main PCB MPU and than also capture what is send via USB and third final output image presented on Android device screen.
When we had three such images, than we could find maybe even some bugs in Seek Thermal app software, which looks like they made to be able to sell this thing, while lack of temperature scale on screen with pallete colors mapped to min/max temperature makes this thing simply useless  ???

I would'nt be supprised if it were some kind of software bug.
Did you tried very slowly rotate in the rate for example 45*degrees/min  CW and see what happends?
Maybe you flipped it too fast and they did not notice it is rotated 180*  :-DD
Another thing when you face this cam perpendicular to the region of interest-so this door claps on the bottom (not parallel to doors), so those cold claps in the middle on the screen-than still you have such strange gradient effect?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 25, 2014, 05:40:03 pm
BTW as the coil only pulls about 2mA I doubt there is any thermal influence from it
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 25, 2014, 05:44:30 pm
The thermal gradient on the shutter itself seems like the most plausible scenario to me. We know that the FFCing can make BIG changes in the imagery, as was seen when Mike operated his without the shutter.

It's probably heating nonuniformly from the outer shell and transferring this gradient to the imagery.

@Mike,

as you already have one with the shutter removed, could you try to FFC it against something you know is thermally uniform? Or maybe FireFlir the back of the pcb?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 25, 2014, 05:48:32 pm
@Eneuro,

The image from Sensor Geek is the one I am concerned about. A non uniform thermal gradient across the image. That simply should not exist after a FFC event. It is accepted that such would occur over a period of time, normally around 3 minutes but not as quickly and permanently as it appears to be in the SEEK unit.

I am borrowing Sensor Geeks image for information.

As you have stated though, we need more comment and examples from other SEEK owners.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 25, 2014, 05:52:48 pm
Mike has a FLIR E4(E8) with close up lens attachment. A better choice than the Fire FLIR  ;)

He is a very busy chap at the moment (talk of 6000 LED's). We need to be patient.

I must say I am already enjoying the dissection of the SEEK and all of its foibles.... this will be a very interesting on-going thread much like the E4 Teardown  :-+
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: cynfab on October 25, 2014, 07:09:42 pm
Here is one from mine, pointed at the floor, radiant floor heat turned off, so it has a large thermal mass.

   ...ken...

This was taken right after powering up the camera.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on October 25, 2014, 07:28:04 pm
Here's one from mine,   Looks this way either pointed at the floor or camera face down on the desk.   Turned on the min/max temps to give an idea of the bad magnitude of the problem.

Starts out looking OK for the first few seconds then gets worse as time goes by.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: waldo on October 25, 2014, 08:54:07 pm
I get exactly the same temperature distribution as rickastro after it has settled for about 2 minutes.  Whatever the cause, seems like it might be something that can be corrected for in software if it is always that repeatable.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 09:08:12 pm
Here is mine pointing at the wooden floor on a spot I didn't step in a while.

Since the Shield doesn't quite work for displaying I can't activate the min/max (well I can activate it but it doesn't show)

Edit: also taken right after powering up the camera

I'll turn it on again and let it settle for a couple of minutes and take another one.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Sensor Geek on October 25, 2014, 09:10:10 pm
2-minute MP4 attached showing face down from cold startup. After one minute the gradient is obvious and continues to expand.

http://myfilehost.nfshost.com/20141025_seek_gradient.mp4 (http://myfilehost.nfshost.com/20141025_seek_gradient.mp4)

Edit: Moving lines in the video are an interference pattern caused by my camera. Not visible to the eye.

Edit 2: Seek just released an update which was applied prior to that video and after I first noted the issue a few comments back. Currently running:

Hardware: 0.0.0.5
Camera s/w: 1.3.0.0
App: 1.3.0.1


Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 09:31:11 pm
I get the a similar result after a while, first attached image

But one interesting thing is that my Nvidia Shield has a magnet near the clam and I noticed that it holds the shutter closed if I'm close enough to it. (Of course don't do this for a prolonged time or you might burn the electromagnet that opens the shutter if it's trying too hard to open the shutter).

Anyways, I took a shot when it was closed, 2nd attached image

Software doing the temperature drift? because with the shutter closed the sensor is fine.

Edit: looks like a bug to me, where their correction image keeps adding an error overtime. Edit 2: on second thought it would affect the sensor with the shutter closed as well, not sure why it's happening, the lens casing?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 09:40:14 pm
Seems like the spot is common to all cameras.

I think this is thermal interference from the lens assembly or the lens itself warming up in some spots.

Since the calibration is done without the lens then it doesn't compensate
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 25, 2014, 09:52:44 pm
All very interesting data guys, please keep experimenting  :)

The fact that the shutter may be operated by an external magnet is a useful discovery  :-+ No harm should occur as the camera does not have shutter position monitoring so will not increase current to the solenoid coil  ;)

From what miguelvp has seen, the shutter being activated manually removes the issue from the displayed image....as he states, that firmly places the later optical path components in the frame for causing the issue as the shutter only blocks the signal path from the lens. Interesting but I currently have no suggestions as to what is happening here

Mike with his 'brain the size of a planet' may well have some luck working out what is happening on his stripped unit, but that will need to wait until he has more time for 'toys'  ;)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 25, 2014, 09:57:36 pm
If SEEK engineers are reading this forum thread, feel free to comment either privately to me, or as an anonymous forum member, on this issue. We may be able to assist you in correcting this anomaly in your camera  ;)  The EEVBLOG forum contains some very knowledgeable techs who may be a good UAT group for you  :)

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 10:11:50 pm
I don't think there is much they can do. I did another experiment and sure enough, even after 10 minutes if I force the shutter close there is no drift but the lens or light path shows the drift. I will suspect the lens itself.

Only obvious solution is to somehow make sure the lens retains a flat thermal signature. Being that small it probably wouldn't be hard to preheat it at certain temp and keep it at that temp, but that will add into cost to them. Or maybe the assembly could have a heat sink around the lens.

Edit: or redesign it so that the shutter is over the lens instead of under the sensor.

Edit: forgot to attach the images, both are after 10 minutes, the last one forcing the shutter closed with a small magnet behind the camera sensor.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 25, 2014, 10:20:01 pm
Something to be considered as well is the autospan function of the camera.

When pointed at a uniform temperature surface the camera should automatically decrease its span and so effectively increases its sensitivity to temperature gradients in the optical path.

Hmmmm so many questions and no answers yet. At least if it is a physical issue it may be able to be easily identified via a series of tests.

The presence of the temperature gradient 'plume' at different temperature spans would be an indicator of whether we are seeing a genuine serious issue or one that only occurs when the unit is running at its most sensitive. I can even see some uniformity issues in my other cameras when they are running at their smallest temperature spans.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 10:35:13 pm
True, they could offer a manual calibration by software that compensates for the lens when pointing at a uniform room temperature surface, giving a mask that they can multiply the image with to compensate for the lens assembly thermal issues.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on October 25, 2014, 10:41:42 pm
Actually, the fact that the shutter closed images look good point exactly to the shutter itself as the source of the gradient if the calibration is working correctly.    The calibration is neutralizing the shutter gradient, and thus we get negative shutter gradient overlay on the real image.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 25, 2014, 10:52:24 pm
Excellent .... this is what I like about brain storming a problem as a group  :-+ ....indeed the shutter could still be the issue. Experimentation with it by only partially moving it across the signal path should show any temp gradient across it as it moves into view by causing non uniformity when the lens is covered by a uniform temperature material.

Partially moving the shutter without physical access to it may be a challenge though ?

I am also wondering what could cause temperature change across the shutter. A warm component beneath it or thermal currents passing over it and out of the solenoid port ? Sadly the lens holder obscures a decent view of the components around the microbolometer FPA.

Its getting late in the UK now so I will have to sleep on this. It would be great to read more thoughts and test results from my fellow forum members across the pond in the USA. All good fun  :)  If I had a SEEK in my lab right now I would be examining the lens assembly and shutter flag with my FLIR E4, fitted with its best close-up lens. With the right lens you can actually look into the SEEKS lens and see the shutter temperature gradient, if present.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 10:53:37 pm
Actually, the fact that the shutter closed images look good point exactly to the shutter itself as the source of the gradient if the calibration is working correctly.    The calibration is neutralizing the shutter gradient, and thus we get negative shutter gradient overlay on the real image.

Could be that as well, I don't know if I can use the magnet to force it open and test it by placing it face down on a uniform temperature surface.

Edit: ok I can force the shutter open externally with a group of neodymium magnets (probably overkill) under the Seek Logo. I'll let it warm up and post the results

I hope I don't permanently magnetize something :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 11:17:34 pm
So ricksastor was right. I did let the camera warm up for a while and let it keep on clicking for 5 minutes.

Then I placed the magnet to force it open waited 20 seconds and took a picture of the wooden floor. Then I pointed it at the door (using a usb micro b extension cord so I don't know which orientation it was taking the picture) and took another one to prove that the shutter was open. No clicks happened between both snapshots and the magnets held the shutter open until I was done.

It has different patterns but I wasn't too methodical, however it does show the thermal signature problem is on the shutter as ricksastor predicted.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 25, 2014, 11:24:35 pm
Excellent work  :-+

Now to work out what causes the temperature gradient on the FFC shutter flag piece.

Correcting the issue may involve no more than adding a small thermal shield between the heat source and the shutter.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 11:24:40 pm
To recap on the external magnet operation.

Magnet behind the sensor opposite to the lens, forces the shutter close.
Magnet under the Seek thermal logo opposite to the USB connector, forces the shutter open.

Edit: use at your own risk, I don't think it will do permanent damage but I might be wrong.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 11:47:35 pm
So, this explains a lot.

Why does the shutter is constantly clicking away? Well it calibrates the sensor with the flag that is not thermally uniform, so after opening the shutter it will get out of calibration fast, so it needs to calibrate again.

I'm going to do one last test, let it warm up. Force the shutter open and take a snapshot, then as quick as I can force the shutter close and take another one. it should give us a negative image of the drift if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 25, 2014, 11:57:00 pm
A quick look at the PCB design and shutter position leads me to the following comments:

1. The likely greatest sources of heat in the SEEK are the switching regulator transistor and the microprocessor. If we treat them as warm air generators within the SEEK's sealed case and consider convection air movement we may find our problem.
2. From my brief view of the PCB the shutter operates from the top of the SEEK module where hot air will collect over time. This could warm up quite quickly as the micro will be a decent source of heat.
3. There is a large through-hole under part of the shutter arm and flag. The hole could potentially provide a focussed warm air path from the rear of the PCB to the front. The micro is on the rear so it is not unreasonable to think that the rear of the SEEK module will be warmer than the front in terms of air flow.
If I am correct, the air around the micro will warm up quicker than that around the lens assembly and this air will rise to the top of the module where it will find a path to the lens assembly via the through hole. Such a warmer air current is not great for the FFC shutter temperature gradient across the flags surface as it is in the path of said air current..
4. Proof of the theory would involve opening the camera shell and blocking the through hole in the PCB adjacent to the lens.

Additional thought....

Operating the SEEK without its rear shell in place would also stop the warm air build up that drives the air current through the hole and onto the shutter. This would prove the issue id thermal convection heating of the shutter flag rather than direct radiant heat from another heat source.

All this is coming from a pretty tired brain in the UK so forgive me if I have rambled on a bit !

EDIT,

I have added a picture taken by Marshall to help show the issue with the through hole above the lens assembly. (Hope this is OK with you Marshall)


Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2014, 12:08:34 am
A quick look at the PCB design and shutter position leads me to the following comments:

1. The likely greatest sources of heat in the SEEK are the switching regulator transistor and the microprocessor. If we treat them as warm air generators within the SEEK's sealed case and consider convection air movement we may find our problem
the switching reg is at the opposite end, and is unlikely to get hot, if you assume it handles all the input current ( which it doesn't but I don't have a figure for the seperate regs), and it's 75% effifcient, dissipation will be about 60mW

However the linear reg for the sensor is a lot closer, and probably gets a lot warmer - I'll measure it at some point. I can measure current via the resistor array on the output.


Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 26, 2014, 12:15:24 am
Can the source of the heat be the actual sensor?

This is what I did, let it warm up then force the shutter open for a while and took a picture.
Then I immediately forced the shutter close and took the 2nd snapshot, The flag seems to be fine.
Held the shutter close for a while removed the magnet and took the 3rd snapshot.

I think the sensor is heating up the flag.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 12:33:54 am
The microbolometer runs at around 30C in most non TEC stabilised cameras. If you look at yourself in a mirror using the SEEK you will see a warm glow from the lens. This is the narcissus effect of the camera seeing its own microbolometer heat through the lens structure.

If the shutter is actually touching the microbolometer it could suffer conducted heat contamination quite quickly. If the contamination is radiated heat onto the shutter we have a serious problem and I cannot think of a quality countermeasure to such.

See here for narcissus effect examples relating to TIC's:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=b-MqbyPwAuoC&pg=PA125&lpg=PA125&dq=narcissus+thermal+camera&source=bl&ots=3bIumYKQNw&sig=5Qsi5GIISpN8p3FDYF8F-V152xs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_UJMVJqtBKzV7Ab4koG4AQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=narcissus%20thermal%20camera&f=false (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=b-MqbyPwAuoC&pg=PA125&lpg=PA125&dq=narcissus+thermal+camera&source=bl&ots=3bIumYKQNw&sig=5Qsi5GIISpN8p3FDYF8F-V152xs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_UJMVJqtBKzV7Ab4koG4AQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=narcissus%20thermal%20camera&f=false)


My brain is fading fast so time for bed. Thanks for all the good work on this folks.

TTFN

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 26, 2014, 12:51:55 am
The only device I have that can use the Seek camera is my Nvidia Shield so I can't see it updating live, only after snapshots. My wife is out of town so I can't use her phone to test this further (or easier).

I don't think the shutter is touching the microbolometer but I do think the temperature inside the lens enclosure is hotter than outside, so when the flag is inside its getting baked a little and since they keep calibrating often it doesn't have time to cool down and it gets worse overtime.

I'm going to do one more experiment. Now that everything is back to room temperature I'm going to start it and force the shutter closed for 30 seconds and see if that accelerates the problem.

Edit: inconclusive, I will have to wait until my wife gets home tomorrow to set with her galaxy s4 so I can see what is happening real time.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 05:07:54 am
@miguelvp,

Many thanks for all the testing you have done, especially as you do not have the benefit of live updates. If SEEK now look at this thread they will be aware that we are aware of an issue with the shutter and maybe they will come up with a solution ?

In the mean time, the user community can continue tests and consider their own solutions.

You comment regarding the localised temperature build up within the lens housing is interesting and Mike should be able to se this with his E4 when he has time. It will be interesting to see whether his stripped down SEEK suffers from this problem. An hardware option may be to perforate the lens housing to allow better ventilation but that is as nasty as it sounds and not a great first step IMHO. The regular FFC shutter operation is very unusual and maybe SEEK have good reasons for this or maybe its is a result of the poor equalisation of the microbolometer pixels as you have suggested. It is certainly a poor FFC result compared to other cameras that I have worked on. The FFC shutter appears to be a negative influence on the equalisation at the moment....not great !

If SEEK made it possible to set the FFC event minimum interval it might enable some fine tuning for best trade off between pixel drift and shutter thermal contamination. Can the 12um  microbolometer really be so unstable that it needs such regular FFC events ? Helpful comment from SEEK would be a blessing here as we are trying to improve their product performance which is good for everyone, including their sales and support team. I will write to them and see what they say.

Its 04:12 in the UK so its back to bed for me  :)

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 05:41:20 am
Friendly email sent to SEEK and this thread referenced for their information. It will be interesting to hear their thoughts on this matter.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 26, 2014, 08:43:58 am
Friendly email sent to SEEK and this thread referenced for their information. It will be interesting to hear their thoughts on this matter.

Aurora

Thanks, I was just gonna do that :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 26, 2014, 08:48:50 am
Friendly email sent to SEEK and this thread referenced for their information. It will be interesting to hear their thoughts on this matter.

Aurora

Thanks, I was just gonna do that :)

might not hurt to do it more than once.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 26, 2014, 10:17:08 am
Then I shall.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 10:50:19 am
I don't think there is any harm in my including a copy of my message to SEEK here as a record of events for others to read so here it is:

From Fraser to SEEK....................

==============================

Dear Sir/Madam,

I have been an industrial thermal camera user for the past 27 years and presently own 29 such cameras in my collection. I collect and repair thermal camera technology so have component level repair experience with microbolometer based thermal imaging cores. My reference designs on which I cut my teeth were the venerable FLIR PM570 and PM695 cameras

I have ordered a SEEK camera from you via a friend in the USA and I am currently waiting for its arrival as part of your order fulfilment plan.

In the mean time I have been working with friends on the testing of your product.Please see the postings by myself and others on the EEVBlog forum going backwards from this point:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg537479/#msg537479 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg537479/#msg537479)

My user ID on EEVBlog is "Aurora"

I spent my evening and much of the night working with "Miguelvp" and others to determine the cause of a Flat Field Correction issue that appears to be present in your SEEK camera design. As you will see the camera appears to be suffering from thermal contamination of the FFC shutter and this causes a temperature gradient in the FFC results table that is clearly visible to the user. This is unfortunate as it degrades performance and could impact upon the SEEK cameras reputation in the user community.

Due to the limits of testing to date, I have not been able to determine (using Miguelvp's tests) whether the issue only occurs with small temperature span settings, but it is pretty obvious from the images that the FFC on your camera has some thermal gradient issues.

It has been suggested that the thermal gradient on the FFC shutter flag may be induced by localised heating within the lens assembly and the frequent operation of the FFC shutter, that is in itself unusual in my experience. Such frequent FFC events have a negative impact on the user experience as even the more common >2 minute interval attracts criticism from the unenlightened consumer thermal camera user community. Many do not know the purpose of the FFC event and they just see it as a freezing of the image that caused annoyance.

I should be grateful for any comment that you are able to make on this matter and hope that your R&D team may have some comment on the frequent FFC events and shutter flag thermal contamination that is present in your camera.

I hope that you will see the positive attitude that members of the EEVBlog forum have towards you product and our desire to help you make it as good as it can be for our mutual benefit. When I receive my SEEK camera I will be happy to offer any UAT comment that may be helpful to you.

Kindest Regards

Fraser
(Surname and email address removed)

================================

Please bear in mind this was written at 04:00(ish) in the morning so no critiques on the writing style or grammer please  ;D

Fraser

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2014, 10:55:35 am
A quick warning to anyone playing with an open unit - the flex, where it meets the USB connector, is prone to a sharp bend which fractures the track , so I'd strongly suggest you add something to stiffen it here - a blob of hotmelt would probably do the trick.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 11:09:09 am
@Mike,

Thanks for the advice.... I hate it when flex cables fracture. A major power supply ribbon in one of my PM570's did that and it was a PITA to repair to an acceptable standard.

OEM's sometimes help by adding a thin piece of flexible plastic like a cable strain relief buy even that can sometimes fail to prevent a track fracture.

I hope you found the work that Miguelvp and others did yesterday/last night interesting. Any input from you gratefully received when you have the time. I am hopeful that SEEK will read this thread (if they are not already doing so) and see that they have a good community of technical minded people supporting their new 'baby'  :)

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2014, 11:15:30 am
Quick observations :

Mine shows a gradient at power-up, so it isn't thermal.

Removing the shutter  and pointing at a flat surface, there is no gradient, but noise increases pretty rapidly between cal times - presumably this is a warm-up thing.

The surface of the shutter, though nominally flat, has machining marks from the mould. Although in a photo these make it look like the surface is curved, this is not the case.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 26, 2014, 11:21:43 am
Seems like I was a bit briefer...

---

Hello,

a possible flaw in the design of the SEEK imager has been discovered (yet not
fully investigated as of now) by some members of the EEVblog forum. I'd
like to inform you about this discovery and to point you where the issue
is discussed. (link:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/285/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/285/) )

The community of dedicated and highly skilled electronics engineering
proffessionals there would be eager to help you address the issue..

Regards,

Matyas Zrnovsky
PGP signed

---

Also is THAT the shutter? Isn't that supposed to be a precision, thermally conductive metal part with an absolute temperature sensor somewhere nearby?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 11:27:51 am
Callipso,

Your email is concise and to the point. Mine is filled with waffle  ;D

Well done

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 11:33:33 am
@Mike,

Interesting comments, thank you.

At least if the shutter is the cause of the issue it is a part that may be redesigned quite easily as a sub assembly. It could even be a retro fit for owners willing to fit it.

Mike, could you look at the FFC shutter face using your E4(E8) and a close up lens ? It would be interesting to see how 'flat' it looks at thermal wavelengths. I am not impressed with the surface finish shown in your picture.

@Callipso,

FFC shutters can be made from many materials, often coated metal or very thin hard plastic with a matt surface. Gloss plastic surfaces can act like mirrors at thermal wavelengths (a bad situation for a FFC shutter). Some cameras monitor the temperature of their metal shutters using a thermistor or thermocouple bonded to the shutter but this can be a reliability issue due to cable flexing. Others use a temperature sensor adjacent to the shutter to establish the ambient temperature in which the shutter is operating.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 11:46:34 am
If SEEK were willing to supply a spare shutter sub assembly we could play with the design and see what works best. I would start by carefully polishing the shutter flags surface with plastic polish and one flat and shiny I would matt it with an abrasive or appropriate paint layer. If that still does not solve the issue I would remove the shutter flag and graft a thin metal shutter in its place. The metal shutter would be pre-painted with a suitable thermal paint to provide good emissivity.

Oh if only I had my SEEK to experiment with !

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2014, 11:46:51 am
Need to go out now -  but I think it may be a timing issue. Video later!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 11:49:08 am
A timing issue  :o Now that is a new viewpoint to the discussion. Excellent. I look forward to seeing what you have found. Thanks Mike.

At least if it is a timing issue that is a software function that can be changed.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on October 26, 2014, 01:17:57 pm
Quick observations :

Mine shows a gradient at power-up, so it isn't thermal.

Removing the shutter  and pointing at a flat surface, there is no gradient, but noise increases pretty rapidly between cal times - presumably this is a warm-up thing.

The surface of the shutter, though nominally flat, has machining marks from the mould. Although in a photo these make it look like the surface is curved, this is not the case.

Interesting.   I suppose it could still be thermal, but like Aurora intimated, could be a reflection of the thermal profile of the sensor itself on the plastic shutter resulting in the same effect.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on October 26, 2014, 02:19:32 pm
My note to Seek:

I've attached an image taken with my Seek thermal camera taken of a thermally flat surface.   It shows a full 7 degree thermal gradient across the image (using the hi/low feature).   This gradient develops over a very short period of time (about a minute to reach the 7 degrees, maxing out at about 9 degrees after several minutes).

In the eevblog community (user ricksastro), there have been many postulations as to the source, with possibilities ranging from thermal profile of the shutter itself to the heat reflection of the sensor on the shutter to many others.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/9999 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/9999)

I would hope you would make fixing this a top priority, since a 7-9 degree swing in measured temperatures is certainly not what I thought I signed up for.

Also, your algorithm to determine color pallet differentiators is fairly ineffective when small differences are seen (like looking at a wall with studs behind).    If there is a heat source in the image, the contrast between wall and studs is seen easily and clearly.   When the heat source is out of the image, the contrast is decreased dramatically to the point that the studs are not easily seen.  This is completely counterintuitive and I assume is the result of trying to minimize the appearance of the aforementioned gradient or noise.

Please let me know how Seek plans to address these findings of the community.   Participating in the blog above would go a long way to secure a following in the community as well as save you many hours of engineering time tracking down these issues.   A fast and positive response will make this one of those iconic devices that started it all.    Ignoring the community and it will likely be relegated it to the archives of devices with great potential but no support.

Thanks much…you’ve made a good device, and if it weren’t just so close to a great device, I wouldn't have bothered writing this.

Best of luck!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 26, 2014, 02:30:40 pm
Hello everyone, I've been a lurker for awhile but I just had to register because this is a fascinating thread.

As mike pointed out, it could be a timing issue.

Perhaps the gradient is due to a rolling shutter effect...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on October 26, 2014, 02:51:04 pm
Hello everyone, I've been a lurker for awhile but I just had to register because this is a fascinating thread.

As mike pointed out, it could be a timing issue.

Perhaps the gradient is due to a rolling shutter effect...

If it were a rolling shutter effect, it wouldn't be an ovoid blob like it is.   But it could be something related I suppose.

On mine, I turned on high/low and watched the progression.   When first on, there was a small gradient (2-4 deg).  It grew to 7 after a minute and peaked at about 9 after a few minutes.   That points to an accumulation, whether it be error accumulation (magnifying the effect, like stacking Flat fields to reduce noise) or thermal accumulation.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 03:01:55 pm
No matter what the cause turns out to be, it sadly points to SEEK possibly releasing their product before it was fully debugged. Not an issue with the application but more of an issue if it is hardware related. UAT surely revealed this issue to SEEK prior to release ?

Of course we have to consider the possibility that the pre-prod units did not have this issue and the large shipment from China or another supplier is not identical to the pre-prod units.....how many times has that happened to a design ? ....... I know plenty of cases of such including one where a unit used a GBP20 microwave SMT capacitor and the manufacturer decided to use a cheaper capacitor in the first production run as it looked good enough..... it wasn't and the performance of the unit was ruined. A lot of expensive rework on the production units ensued. I was the one who discovered the problem as I never trust specs until I have personally tested a unit and confirmed them. The manufacturer was mortified !

This is why I am very interested to hear SEEK's response to our comments.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2014, 03:28:23 pm
By timing I meant I thought it might be sampling when shutter wasn't fully closed, but have now ruled that out.
Still investigating...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2014, 03:33:11 pm
Meanwhile a bug report - if you leave it in the "please plug the camera in" state, it leaves the phone screen on and never times out, so ends up flattenning the battery
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 26, 2014, 04:03:33 pm
@mike,

I indeed meant a literal rolling shutter, as in the flat field is capturing frames as the shutter is closing which means the averaged field is not even. But could you elaborate on how you ruled that out?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 04:59:35 pm
I have been looking at the thumbnail images of the temperature gradient issue that several users have provided. I may be seeing what I want to see but from a distance I believe I can see the shape of the angled end of the FFC flag in the darker coloured area. It isn't a 'blob' or oval, the shape looks like a trapezoid.

Maybe I am seeing things that are not there but I welcome other peoples opinion on this.

I have attached the clearest image and added a line that I believe shows the edges of the anomaly and potentially the shape of the shutter flag ?

Note that I deliberately drew the line on the thermal image before looking closely at the flag shape so as to not program myself to draw a certain shape. After drawing on the thermal image I drew a red line around the flag on Mikes shutter picture. The angles on the two pictures do look similar to me. Mikes comment on a potential timing issue may still be a possibility ?

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 26, 2014, 05:10:58 pm
Yes it does appear that way. What if its a single frame on the tail end of the flatfield group of averaged frames, for instance, as the flag is moving out of the way too early before all the frames have been captured? I can't tell what the orientation should be, but you might be right about the ghost of the flag showing up in the image.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 26, 2014, 05:34:19 pm
@mike,

Try manually moving the shutter over the image sensor slowly, to check the orientation of the shutter as it moves over the image sensor. I'm very curious to see if the dark area in most images also happens to be the point where the flag moves into and out of the image area.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 26, 2014, 06:16:16 pm
Maybe the software is using a "too-early" frame from the sensor that contains afterimages of a blurry moving shutter for compensation
Is it possible that the speed of the shutter action is a variable that depends on mfg batch, phone battery voltage, or something else?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 26, 2014, 06:34:42 pm
Considering there is a regulator, the battery level wouldn't make a significang difference, even with the minimal draw on the coil to stay open. I couldn't imagine it would pull the regulation down enough to slow the shutter...but it is a possibility.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on October 26, 2014, 06:41:28 pm
Interesting thought on the shutter shape...certainly a good theory.   But I think miguelvp's experiment (post 398) isn't explained by this.   Maybe a combo?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 26, 2014, 06:52:38 pm
Is it possible that the speed of the shutter action is a variable that depends on mfg batch, phone battery voltage, or something else?
With decent scope maybe it will be possible make own DIY using only this part cut from whole PCB - sensor itself and put there MPU we like :-DD
(http://s5.postimg.org/b1fc09bhf/out_blur2_seek_thermal_camera_sensor_cut_gray_83.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/b1fc09bhf/)
This above it not of course thermal image of sensor part of PCB, but just for fun applied this quite nice iron256 LUT which is very similar or maybe even based on FLIR's one mentioned many posts above  :-+
 
While using even basic image processing methods I was able get decent output based on this  USB raw sensor data provided in this thread earlier by @marshallh, the most interesting thing is simply hack or learn its protocol between MPU and sensor, and maybe even make... own DIY shutter and forget about this builtin in-simply remove it  >:D
(http://s5.postimg.org/t5ickw95v/screen_gamma11_blur9_seek_thermal_sensor_raw_usb.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/t5ickw95v/)
In my Linux app added some adjustable gamma and can controll how smooth output image is, so with this iron256 LUT it looks much better than those very noisy looking Seek Thermal outputs and it is time to make OpenCV version of this software, while probably I was able to find quite good way to fill those hexagon black dots and other probably bad pixels, so it could be nice make this code more efficieint and accelerated by Nvidia CUDO technology supported in OpenCV.

Sample PNG RGB output after 4x resizing oryginal sensor 208x156 size to output size below to compare with those images taken from Android devices :-/O
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2014, 07:14:53 pm
I've now established that it is definitely nothing to do with the shutter.
 It is either the lens itelf, or the alignment of the lens. 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2014, 07:30:42 pm
With decent scope maybe it will be possible make own DIY using only this part cut from whole PCB - sensor itself and put there MPU we like :-DD
I think the only viable way will be to write new code for the MCU - there are 18 bond-wires onto the die and some disappear onto vias inside the lens housing
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on October 26, 2014, 07:34:07 pm
I've now established that it is definitely nothing to do with the shutter.
 It is either the lens itelf, or the alignment of the lens.

Definitely look forward to hearing about this!   thanks for investigating.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 08:17:49 pm
Mike,

Thanks for the news. So we are back to the possibility of issues in the optical block. Misalignemnet of the lens should not cause the viewing of a flat field to have a temperature gradient unless wildly off axis causing only partial illumination of the microbolometer. Such would be very obvious when looking at a normal target scene.

There is the possibility of narcissus effect between the microbolometer and the rear of the lens. The rear of the lens element should be convex which tends to reduce the chances of narcissus effects in the optical block. I have not seen such effects inside the optical block of a TIC before so have no idea of the real world visual effect of such.

From the images there appears to be a cooler minority area surrounded by a warmer majority area. In order to cause a cooler area on the microbolometer face a cooling influence would be needed and we are seeing a 9 degree differential !. I know of no such cooling source around the SEEK optical block. That leaves the possibility that the majority warm area is in fact the error and not the nominal. Wow this is making my head hurt ! The shutter was a good candidate for causing the cooler area anomaly as it had the potential to cause a negative offset in the FFC table but as you have discounted that we are kind of back to square one looking for the physical source of the error.

I look forward to any discoveries that you make regarding possible causes of such an anomaly.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 26, 2014, 08:22:00 pm
How did you manage to rule out the shutter?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: IanB on October 26, 2014, 08:24:58 pm
I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but there is a solenoid that operates the shutter. I recall that the solenoid is continuously active and holding the shutter open while the camera is operating, rather than the expected reverse situation where the solenoid activates momentarily to close the shutter when commanded. If the solenoid is continuously activated, could this not be a source of heat close to the optical assembly? Could it even be warming up the shutter in an uneven way?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 08:31:35 pm
OK blue sky thinking time.......

Unlike my other TIC,s which tend to have very open optical blocks, and reasonable air circulation space, the SEEK uses a tube with the microbolometer at one end and the lens at the other. I know that a microbolometer +ROIC generates some heat (usually 30C nominal) so could we be seeing a the effects of heat accumulation inside the lens tube ? The effects of such warm air containment in front of the microbolometer are unpredictable and could potentially cause hot and cold spots on the images. The cooler area of the images could be where the heat is able to escape due to the shutter lever openings ? It would be useful to establish exactly where the 'blob' of cooler readings is physically located in relation to the layout of the PCB and lens block etc. I am still not certain on this orientation issue.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 08:41:07 pm
IanB,

Some TIC's have a normally closed shutter when off in order to protect the microbolometer from prolonged exposure to high input signal levels such as a fire or radiator in the FOV. The designs pull the shutter out of the optical path when the unit is switched on. TESTO came up with a shutter actuator that is latching in both open and closed positions and changes state when a pulse is applied to the solenoid. This was done to save power in their 880 series cameras and is patented.

The solenoid heat output was considered but we think it too little for the effect that is being seen. I proposed possible magnetic field interferance issues but that also looks unlikely. 'MiguelVP' has also eliminated heat and magnetic field influences in his experiments of yesterday.

Keep thinking about potential scenarios pepes, we may yet solve this puzzle  :)

Mike has a disassembled SEEK on his work bench and likely has the best chance of discovering the cause through good deduction and testing. He also has an E4(E8) to inspect the unit with and to see the heat around critical areas such as the optical block.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2014, 08:49:23 pm
I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but there is a solenoid that operates the shutter. I recall that the solenoid is continuously active and holding the shutter open while the camera is operating, rather than the expected reverse situation where the solenoid activates momentarily to close the shutter when commanded. If the solenoid is continuously activated, could this not be a source of heat close to the optical assembly? Could it even be warming up the shutter in an uneven way?
No - heat is negligible. I have repeated the gradient using a substitute shutter comprising a strip of plastic manually removed from in front of the sensor.
I think it is either the lens (marginal field of view)  or lens aligment
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 26, 2014, 08:50:38 pm
I don't know why Mike ruled out the shutter.

After being on for a while, if I force the shutter open and point it down, the blob disappears.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=114769;image)
After being on for a while and the shutter forced open if I force it close, the image is less even but not terrible:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=114771;image)
After forcing it close for a while if I release it and let it operate normally and point it down, it's as bad as it gets.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=114773;image)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 26, 2014, 08:52:02 pm
Using the PC application by sgstair I've noticed mine does not have any gradient on startup. After aobut 2 minutes it starts to become noticeable:

(http://i.imgur.com/5X2Hy8i.png)
So this rules out compensation by the android app.

I have some thermal pics of its opreration as well.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 26, 2014, 08:59:27 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/os4V0Dq.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/5u9PBWC.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Wa5iS6t.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/oYhMuHX.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/dVpenxm.jpg)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 09:05:26 pm
Thanks for the pics Marshall.

That last picture is interesting..... I am seeing 38C through the SEEKs lens but that could be narcissus effect from your F30 ? Have you a picture of the rear of the microbolometer as it is bonded to the PCB and so should show up on the rear of the PCB if hot.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 09:21:31 pm
Ok more conjecture.....

If the SEEKs new microbolometer runs hot (possibly 38C looking at Marshalls thermal images)  then any shutter that is placed in front of it will start at ambient and quickly heat towards 38C.

The shutter is not designed to be heated ! It is supposed to normalise at ambient and its behaviour when heated could be unpredictable, especially if the shutter flag thickness, and hence thermal mass, varies across its surface. The shutter arm may also conduct away heat from that part of the flag.

It would be very useful to know what temperature the microbolometer is running at 38C would be very warm when compared to measurements that I have made on other microbolometers.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2014, 09:23:16 pm
I don't know why Mike ruled out the shutter.

After being on for a while, if I force the shutter open and point it down, the blob disappears.
- yes it's seeing a static scene, so when it thinks it's done a cal, it's subtracting the image form itself, giving  ablank field.
Quote
After forcing it close for a while if I release it and let it operate normally and point it down, it's as bad as it gets.
the issue is that the "blank field" of the shutter-closed image is different from that of a blank field through the lens.
From what I've seen so far I think it's the lens rather than the shutter, but it is rather hard to test.
Other minor possibilites are IR coming through the shutter aperture, or reflections from the inside of the lens housing

Brain getting a bit fried now but my current best guess is lens alignment ( edge of field of view)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sgstair on October 26, 2014, 10:02:51 pm
I'm not sure how LWIR-reflective the shutter material is - but could we possibly be seeing a reflection of the sensor's heat?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 26, 2014, 10:15:18 pm
taken a coulpe minute apart as it warms up - definitely more noise:
(http://i.imgur.com/CtzCX0M.png)

Also you can see that each frame is compsed of 4 subframes... I'd bet the LPC is doing average internally at 8.5*4fps\


(http://i.imgur.com/y9DzIrI.jpg)
Back of sensor

Shutter is visible here, it's the hook shape that's green in front of the lens housing. Obviously much warmer than the lens housing
(http://i.imgur.com/zPJP62f.jpg)


Off-axis with shutter open
(http://i.imgur.com/IzFRNjM.jpg)

offaxis with shutter CLOSED
(http://i.imgur.com/0mKy87E.jpg)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2014, 10:25:31 pm
Shutter is visible here, it's the hook shape that's green in front of the lens housing. Obviously much warmer than the lens housing
Bear in mind shutter is black plastic, lens housing is metal with white paint on it, so at least some of the difference could be down to emissivity.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 10:42:04 pm
That microbolometer still looks hotter than I would have expected but interestingly there is no evidence of a hot spot on the rear of the PCB under the microbolometer.

It will be very interesting to hear SEEKs thoughts on this matter, hopefully tomorrow.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2014, 10:49:39 pm
That microbolometer still looks hotter than I would have expected but interestingly there is no evidence of a hot spot on the rear of the PCB under the microbolometer.

It will be very interesting to hear SEEKs thoughts on this matter, hopefully tomorrow.

Aurora
Don't hold your breath. They've not exactly been very communicative to date
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 26, 2014, 11:04:40 pm
@Mike,

That will be very sad indeed because the camera appears to have an issue that will win SEEK Thermal no friends if they show no interest. As we know the user community will be quick to look for alternatives if this is nothing more than a toy with 'issues' and no support. A great pity if this comes to pass. There is that other thermal camera project that tried to get Kickstarter backing a while back. I believe it uses a German sourced detector array.

I have not given up on the SEEK device just yet though and if we can discover the cause of the issue, then DIY correction is a possibility. BUT at $200 I am not that interested in spending tens of valuable man hours sorting out SEEK Thermal's problems for them if they don't show any interest in supporting their product. I would just buy another thermal camera and move on..... except I don't need any more thermal cameras  ;D

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 26, 2014, 11:48:21 pm
That microbolometer still looks hotter than I would have expected but interestingly there is no evidence of a hot spot on the rear of the PCB under the microbolometer.

It will be very interesting to hear SEEKs thoughts on this matter, hopefully tomorrow.

Aurora

The PCB is pretty thick there there is probably a ground plane within it's layers.
Seems like they designed it that thick to avoid thermal issues.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 26, 2014, 11:51:19 pm
They do have a twitter account, maybe that would give a faster response if they don't answer via e-mail? I would hate to be too quick to bring it up on twitter and give them some time to address the issue privately.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 26, 2014, 11:57:51 pm
After being on for a while and the shutter forced open if I force it close, the image is less even but not terrible:
Which LUT are you using? Is it possible in Seek Thermal app disable any LUTs and get grey output?

Thanks to @marshallh he provided another ones raw sensor USB captured images  :-+
Played a while ago with those images-disabled any gamma corections in my software and set smooth to level 9 so more averaging, than applied iron256 LUT mentioned before (2nd row coloured ones)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115003)
After that I've converted them to gray again and normalized and... I do not know those images from left to right looks more uniform when we blur them a little bit (average a few times) and normalize or equalize, even using any purpose image software like Gimp starting with this raw sensor images provided by @marshallh :-//
I've included them in last row, with left to right timeing like other above starting from oryginal in the first row...
I do not resized them from its oryginal 208x156 to do not create additional artificial pixels eg. by linear resize 4x to Seek Thermal output resolution 832x624, so they were processed at its oryginal sensor size 208x156.

It is interesting what explanation might be and if it is hardware issue  ::)

BTW: Still those last two columns in raw sensor data are mistery-simply skipped them in my image processing and shifted whole image by 1 pixel to nice horizontal fit into 208x156 sensor raw data image size.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 27, 2014, 12:09:58 am
Bear in mind that (AFAICS) they don't give any  spec whatsoever for absolute accuracy or NETD, and there are inevitable compromises making something so cheap. For the majority of their target market, it's good enough.
 
There is no temp sensor on the shutter - it appears that the only temperature sensor is a diode on the rear of the PCB, so is it reasonable to expect better than 5-10 deg.c accuracy?

These folks are not newbies in the thermal imaging industry, and it's quite possible that the performance is as good as they can get for the price.  What would be interesting is to compare a few units to see how similar the issue is.
They may well be using the phone add-on market to hone the process to a level more acceptable for higher end users, for the next product. Flir are already marketing Lepton for industrial monitoring type apps, but I think the Seek is at least one iteration away from being able to compete in this market.





Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 27, 2014, 12:12:33 am
The shutter arm may also conduct away heat from that part of the flag.
Talking about DIY shutter I was thinking about one... without any physical connection with PCB  >:D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 27, 2014, 02:34:26 am
Leaving the shutter open so it references whatever is looking at and moving the camera slightly to the righ or left or up or down does a pretty cool edge detection, Of course a regular camera will do the same

On the blob front I see Mike's point on not necesarelly being the shutter since if I leave the thing open and steady to any background with whatever number of heat differences when it subtracts the reference image it will always look flat (or if I didn't move the camera when I took this picture)

It's on my wife's phone and it's setup as a 16:9 ratio because it's easier to find things on that mode.

The picture is a chair with a window with blind behind. A humidifier on top of the chair (not turned on) and the edge of a radiator on the right.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 27, 2014, 02:47:06 am
I put my finger next to the shutter by accident... still far from the sensor, and I see a nice white blob along the left side of the screen. Sensitive to indirect heat even thats a few mm perpendicular...

(http://i.imgur.com/hT4uip0.png)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 27, 2014, 02:56:46 am
So as the chip gets hot the temperature difference with the window from where the shutter is at is the reason for what I call the blob?

It's 6 degrees difference more or less in my case
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ebeall on October 27, 2014, 03:03:45 am
@Aurora,
There is indeed another imager coming soon that had been developed using a German array. It would be nice to use the Seek but the performance is not good enough now. The noise is a problem, but its still early, they may have better performance in a different configuration or future version, as you guys are hard at work on figuring out.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 27, 2014, 03:07:00 am
Marshallh, does that seeker actually captures data directly form the PC or you are capturing the data first then using that to decode it?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 27, 2014, 03:14:29 am
It is a live preview, controls the device directly (I don't have a smartphone of my own)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sgstair on October 27, 2014, 03:22:26 am
Seeker app was linked previously in the thread also, it's available here: https://github.com/sgstair/winusbdotnet
I still have some plans to improve it, at the moment it's just doing very dumb calibration on the raw data and rendering it.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 27, 2014, 03:34:41 am
Awesome, thanks sgstair. I do have a micro b to A adaptor in order but I took the cheapest one so it's going to be a while until I get it. I guess I will have to sacrifice my micro B extension cable in the meanwhile. or desolder a female from an old phone.

Cool :) will download it asap, thanks again.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 27, 2014, 04:25:30 am
New app version was released on the 24th:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal

What's new:
* Corrected crashing issues on various devices.
* Image quality improvements.
* Other misc. Improvements.


Can someone confirm if it has a firmware upgrade?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 27, 2014, 05:01:09 am
I did sacrifice the micro B USB extender data cable:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115021;image)

Updated the winusb driver with Zadig as previously posted (maybe that should be part of the readme :) )
Compiled it with visual studio express 2013 and was a piece of cake:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115023;image)
My hot router :)

Thank you sgstair!

@marshallh I did have to download the apk with bluestacks to begin with so I don't get updates. I guess I can download the current one.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 27, 2014, 05:37:38 am
New app version was released on the 24th:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal)

What's new:
* Corrected crashing issues on various devices.
* Image quality improvements.
* Other misc. Improvements.


Can someone confirm if it has a firmware upgrade?

Haven't checked but did a backup of the apk and placed it where I placed the last one:

http://www.miguelvp.com/ForMike/ (http://www.miguelvp.com/ForMike/)

Edit: Of course is the one named Seek_Thermal-v1.3.0.1.apk

Now I'm trying to see if I can make BlueStacks use the usb camera directly, Not sure if it's possible
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 27, 2014, 05:55:53 am
Image has new firmware built Oct 21.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 27, 2014, 06:39:23 am
Image has new firmware built Oct 21.

Cool, plugged it into my wife's cell to update the camera and when I ran the application it did mention updating firmware to your camera.

The image on the left is the new firmware, the one on the right is the previous one.

Not too scientific but I tried to get it as close as the previous shot.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115031;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 27, 2014, 08:52:20 am
So I started to play with sgstair's code, and in Form1.cs I added a bilinear interpolation, kind of crude but it works.
So for dead pixels it averages from the top, bottom, left and right, didn't bother to do the corner ones.

Code: [Select]
#if AVERAGE
                int[] deadpixelarray = { 10, 6, 2, 13, 9, 5, 1, 12, 8, 4, 0, 11, 7, 3, 14 };
                int deadpixel;
                ulong average;
                ulong numpoints;
                int v;
                for (y = 0; y < 156; y++)
                {
                    deadpixel = deadpixelarray[y % 15];
                    for (int x = 0; x < 208; x++)
                    {
                        if (x == deadpixel)
                        {
                            average = 0UL;
                            numpoints = 0;
                            if (x > 0)
                            {
                                average += data.PixelData[c - 1];
                                numpoints++;
                            }
                            if (x < 208)
                            {
                                average += data.PixelData[c + 1];
                                numpoints++;
                            }
                            if (y > 0)
                            {
                                average += data.PixelData[c - 208];
                                numpoints++;
                            }
                            if (y < 155)
                            {
                                average += data.PixelData[c + 208];
                                numpoints++;
                            }
                            if (numpoints > 0)
                                average = average / numpoints;
                            else
                                average = data.MinValue;
                            v = (int)average;
                            deadpixel += 15;
                        }
                        else
                        {
                            v = data.PixelData[c];
                        }
                        v = (v - data.MinValue) * 255 / (data.MaxValue - data.MinValue);

                        if (v < 0) v = 0;
                        if (v > 255) v = 255;
                        bmp.SetPixel(x, y, Color.FromArgb(v, v, v));
                        c++;
                    }
                }
 #else
                for (y = 0; y < 156; y++)
                {
                    for (int x = 0; x < 208; x++)
                    {
                        int v = data.PixelData[c++];

                        v = (v - data.MinValue) * 255 / (data.MaxValue - data.MinValue);
                        if (v < 0) v = 0;
                        if (v > 255) v = 255;

                        bmp.SetPixel(x, y, Color.FromArgb(v, v, v));
                    }
                }
 #endif
Edit: got rid off an unused variable and defaulted the dead pixel to min value instead of max value if it couldn't average (but that should never happen anyways)

Next I might characterize the background better since there is some patterns that can be adjusted it seems.

I added an Iron palette later on with paintshop pro.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115035;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115039;image)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 27, 2014, 09:30:51 am
https://github.com/sgstair/winusbdotnet
I still have some plans to improve it, at the moment it's just doing very dumb calibration on the raw data and rendering it.
So, those 3 images on screen shoots provided by @marshallh are NOT exactly raw sensor data but you modify its values, for example those non hexagon pixels somehow and change from 14bit to 8bit to be able to render it in RGBA mode?

However, does it work on standard PC USB 2.0 port with additional USB adapters or only on latest computers with some kid of USB OTG support?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 27, 2014, 09:40:55 am
New app version was released on the 24th:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal

What's new:
* Corrected crashing issues on various devices.
* Image quality improvements.
* Other misc. Improvements.


Can someone confirm if it has a firmware upgrade?
..and upload an .apk...?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 27, 2014, 09:46:45 am
It works on a standard USB 2.0 port but you have to install the winusb driver with Zadig
http://zadig.akeo.ie/ (http://zadig.akeo.ie/)

On another note, brute force approach to add the Iron palette directly to the code, I know I could have just make it so it will read a file with the palette but meh. Notepad++ helped me

I'm attaching the modified Form1.cs with a built in Iron Palette

Edit: change the number of bitmaps back to 5 i changed it to only display 3

Code: [Select]
                if (bmpQueue.Count > 3) bmpQueue.Dequeue();
it was > 5

The result:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115044;image)

@mike apk is here http://www.miguelvp.com/ForMike/ (http://www.miguelvp.com/ForMike/)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 27, 2014, 09:52:25 am
I was able to remove most of the dead pixels with this simple (C#) code:
Code: [Select]
            //get image
            Bitmap sourceImg = new Bitmap(@"C:\temp\thermo\seek.png");
            Color leftPixel, centerPixel, rightPixel, topPixel, bottomPixel;
            int avgVal;

            //loop trough horiz pixels
            for (int x = 0; x < sourceImg.Width-2; x++)
            {
                for (int y = 0; y < sourceImg.Height-2; y++)
                {
                    leftPixel = sourceImg.GetPixel(x, y + 1);
                    rightPixel = sourceImg.GetPixel(x + 2, y + 1);
                    topPixel = sourceImg.GetPixel(x + 1, y);
                    bottomPixel = sourceImg.GetPixel(x + 1, y + 2);
                    centerPixel = sourceImg.GetPixel(x + 1, y + 1);
                    avgVal = (leftPixel.R + rightPixel.R + topPixel.R + bottomPixel.R) / 4;
                    if (Math.Abs(leftPixel.R - centerPixel.R) > 20) //if pixel is too different use average color from near pixels
                    {
                        sourceImg.SetPixel(x + 1, y + 1, Color.FromArgb(avgVal, avgVal, avgVal));
                    }
                }
            }

            sourceImg.Save(Application.StartupPath + "\\clear.png");

Before / after image:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115046;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 27, 2014, 10:23:13 am
I have managed to significantly reduce the gradient on mine by moving the lens position. Video soon.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 27, 2014, 10:28:30 am
I was able to remove most of the dead pixels with this simple (C#) code:

Cool, I'm trying to incorporate it but it's late so tomorrow :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 27, 2014, 11:27:30 am
For the record this is what the sensor looks like after running for about 10 mins
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: arius on October 27, 2014, 11:39:39 am
If someone want use this camera outside USA - I use chrome extension APK Downloader http://apps.evozi.com/apk-downloader/ (http://apps.evozi.com/apk-downloader/) - I can download Seek Thermal apk directly from the store without using VPN.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 27, 2014, 12:39:45 pm
@miguelvp:
I've improved code quite a bit so that details don't get lost because of noise reduction...
Code: [Select]
//must include: using System.Linq;
            //set level of the noise reduction:
            int noiseReduction = 25; //smaller number means less noise but also less details, 25 seems to be a good value
            //get image
            Bitmap sourceImg = new Bitmap(@"C:\temp\thermo\seek.png");
            Color centerPixel;
            int avgVal;
            int[] arrColor = new int[4];

            //loop trough pixels
            for (int x = 0; x < sourceImg.Width-2; x++)
            {
                for (int y = 0; y < sourceImg.Height-2; y++)
                {
                    arrColor[0] = sourceImg.GetPixel(x, y + 1).R;
                    arrColor[1] = sourceImg.GetPixel(x + 2, y + 1).R;
                    arrColor[2] = sourceImg.GetPixel(x + 1, y).R;
                    arrColor[3] = sourceImg.GetPixel(x + 1, y + 2).R;

                    //get average value, but exclude neighbour dead pixels from average:
                    avgVal = (arrColor.Sum() - (arrColor.Min() + arrColor.Max())) / 2;

                    centerPixel = sourceImg.GetPixel(x + 1, y + 1);
                    if (Math.Abs(avgVal - centerPixel.R) > noiseReduction) //if pixel is too different use average color from near pixels
                    {
                        sourceImg.SetPixel(x + 1, y + 1, Color.FromArgb(avgVal, avgVal, avgVal));
                    }
                }
            }
sourceImg.Save(Application.StartupPath + "\\clear.png");
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115052;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 27, 2014, 12:58:39 pm
It works on a standard USB 2.0 port but you have to install the winusb driver with Zadig
Nice  :-+
However, I want connect Seek Thermal not on Window$ but Linux-I hope maybe someone will make it available like other classic USB video cameres, but thermal source ;)
If not I will try to DIY it myself, but I will have this cam next year, so meybe even they release some kind of thermal module like Flir's Lepton to embbend in own projects.

On another note, brute force approach to add the Iron palette directly to the code, I know I could have just make it so it will read a file with the palette but meh. Notepad++ helped me
I used libPNG to generate automatic code to include into C source file, so make it available using JNI in Android application, or generate output for OpenCV, and of course optimize it for speed  ;)
This is automatic generated using mentioned iron256.lut.png posted above, so now I can easy add any other LUTs as C source code, but I think that this FLIR's like iron pallette is very good looking, so I have implemented only this one for the moment in seek_thermal_lut_iron256.c simply C source file
Code: [Select]
#ifndef _SEEK_THERMAL_LUT_IRON256_C_
 #define _SEEK_THERMAL_LUT_IRON256_C_

void seek_thermal_lut_iron256_get(unsigned int idx, unsigned char *pr, unsigned char *pg, unsigned char *pb ) {
static unsigned char *lutr= NULL;
static unsigned char *lutg= NULL;
static unsigned char *lutb= NULL;


if(lutr==NULL || lutg==NULL || lutb==NULL ) {
lutr=(unsigned char*)malloc(sizeof(unsigned char)*256);
lutg=(unsigned char*)malloc(sizeof(unsigned char)*256);
lutb=(unsigned char*)malloc(sizeof(unsigned char)*256);

lutr[0]= 0; lutg[0]= 0; lutb[0]= 0; 
lutr[1]= 0; lutg[1]= 0; lutb[1]= 7; 
lutr[2]= 0; lutg[2]= 0; lutb[2]= 24; 
lutr[3]= 0; lutg[3]= 0; lutb[3]= 38; 
lutr[4]= 0; lutg[4]= 0; lutb[4]= 46; 
lutr[5]= 0; lutg[5]= 0; lutb[5]= 52; 
lutr[6]= 0; lutg[6]= 0; lutb[6]= 59; 
lutr[7]= 0; lutg[7]= 0; lutb[7]= 66; 
lutr[8]= 0; lutg[8]= 0; lutb[8]= 73; 
lutr[9]= 0; lutg[9]= 0; lutb[9]= 80; 
lutr[10]= 1; lutg[10]= 0; lutb[10]= 85; 
lutr[11]= 2; lutg[11]= 0; lutb[11]= 89; 
lutr[12]= 3; lutg[12]= 0; lutb[12]= 93; 
lutr[13]= 4; lutg[13]= 0; lutb[13]= 97; 
lutr[14]= 5; lutg[14]= 0; lutb[14]= 101; 
lutr[15]= 6; lutg[15]= 0; lutb[15]= 104; 
lutr[16]= 8; lutg[16]= 0; lutb[16]= 108; 
lutr[17]= 10; lutg[17]= 0; lutb[17]= 112; 
lutr[18]= 11; lutg[18]= 0; lutb[18]= 116; 
lutr[19]= 13; lutg[19]= 0; lutb[19]= 118; 
lutr[20]= 15; lutg[20]= 0; lutb[20]= 119; 
lutr[21]= 17; lutg[21]= 0; lutb[21]= 121; 
lutr[22]= 20; lutg[22]= 0; lutb[22]= 123; 
lutr[23]= 24; lutg[23]= 0; lutb[23]= 126; 
lutr[24]= 27; lutg[24]= 0; lutb[24]= 128; 
lutr[25]= 30; lutg[25]= 0; lutb[25]= 130; 
lutr[26]= 33; lutg[26]= 0; lutb[26]= 133; 
lutr[27]= 36; lutg[27]= 0; lutb[27]= 135; 
lutr[28]= 40; lutg[28]= 0; lutb[28]= 136; 
lutr[29]= 43; lutg[29]= 0; lutb[29]= 138; 
lutr[30]= 47; lutg[30]= 0; lutb[30]= 139; 
lutr[31]= 50; lutg[31]= 0; lutb[31]= 141; 
lutr[32]= 53; lutg[32]= 0; lutb[32]= 142; 
lutr[33]= 56; lutg[33]= 0; lutb[33]= 144; 
lutr[34]= 59; lutg[34]= 0; lutb[34]= 145; 
lutr[35]= 62; lutg[35]= 0; lutb[35]= 146; 
lutr[36]= 64; lutg[36]= 0; lutb[36]= 148; 
lutr[37]= 66; lutg[37]= 0; lutb[37]= 149; 
lutr[38]= 69; lutg[38]= 0; lutb[38]= 150; 
lutr[39]= 72; lutg[39]= 0; lutb[39]= 150; 
lutr[40]= 75; lutg[40]= 0; lutb[40]= 150; 
lutr[41]= 78; lutg[41]= 0; lutb[41]= 151; 
lutr[42]= 81; lutg[42]= 0; lutb[42]= 151; 
lutr[43]= 83; lutg[43]= 0; lutb[43]= 152; 
lutr[44]= 87; lutg[44]= 0; lutb[44]= 152; 
lutr[45]= 90; lutg[45]= 0; lutb[45]= 153; 
lutr[46]= 93; lutg[46]= 0; lutb[46]= 154; 
lutr[47]= 96; lutg[47]= 0; lutb[47]= 155; 
lutr[48]= 99; lutg[48]= 0; lutb[48]= 155; 
lutr[49]= 102; lutg[49]= 0; lutb[49]= 155; 
lutr[50]= 105; lutg[50]= 0; lutb[50]= 155; 
lutr[51]= 108; lutg[51]= 0; lutb[51]= 156; 
lutr[52]= 111; lutg[52]= 0; lutb[52]= 156; 
lutr[53]= 113; lutg[53]= 0; lutb[53]= 157; 
lutr[54]= 115; lutg[54]= 0; lutb[54]= 157; 
lutr[55]= 119; lutg[55]= 0; lutb[55]= 157; 
lutr[56]= 122; lutg[56]= 0; lutb[56]= 157; 
lutr[57]= 125; lutg[57]= 0; lutb[57]= 157; 
lutr[58]= 128; lutg[58]= 0; lutb[58]= 157; 
lutr[59]= 130; lutg[59]= 0; lutb[59]= 157; 
lutr[60]= 133; lutg[60]= 0; lutb[60]= 157; 
lutr[61]= 136; lutg[61]= 0; lutb[61]= 157; 
lutr[62]= 138; lutg[62]= 0; lutb[62]= 157; 
lutr[63]= 141; lutg[63]= 0; lutb[63]= 157; 
lutr[64]= 144; lutg[64]= 0; lutb[64]= 156; 
lutr[65]= 147; lutg[65]= 0; lutb[65]= 156; 
lutr[66]= 150; lutg[66]= 0; lutb[66]= 155; 
lutr[67]= 153; lutg[67]= 0; lutb[67]= 155; 
lutr[68]= 155; lutg[68]= 0; lutb[68]= 155; 
lutr[69]= 157; lutg[69]= 0; lutb[69]= 155; 
lutr[70]= 160; lutg[70]= 0; lutb[70]= 155; 
lutr[71]= 162; lutg[71]= 0; lutb[71]= 155; 
lutr[72]= 164; lutg[72]= 0; lutb[72]= 155; 
lutr[73]= 167; lutg[73]= 0; lutb[73]= 154; 
lutr[74]= 169; lutg[74]= 0; lutb[74]= 154; 
lutr[75]= 171; lutg[75]= 0; lutb[75]= 153; 
lutr[76]= 172; lutg[76]= 0; lutb[76]= 153; 
lutr[77]= 174; lutg[77]= 1; lutb[77]= 152; 
lutr[78]= 176; lutg[78]= 1; lutb[78]= 152; 
lutr[79]= 177; lutg[79]= 1; lutb[79]= 151; 
lutr[80]= 179; lutg[80]= 1; lutb[80]= 151; 
lutr[81]= 181; lutg[81]= 2; lutb[81]= 150; 
lutr[82]= 183; lutg[82]= 2; lutb[82]= 149; 
lutr[83]= 184; lutg[83]= 3; lutb[83]= 149; 
lutr[84]= 185; lutg[84]= 4; lutb[84]= 149; 
lutr[85]= 187; lutg[85]= 5; lutb[85]= 148; 
lutr[86]= 188; lutg[86]= 5; lutb[86]= 147; 
lutr[87]= 190; lutg[87]= 5; lutb[87]= 146; 
lutr[88]= 191; lutg[88]= 6; lutb[88]= 146; 
lutr[89]= 192; lutg[89]= 7; lutb[89]= 145; 
lutr[90]= 193; lutg[90]= 8; lutb[90]= 144; 
lutr[91]= 194; lutg[91]= 9; lutb[91]= 143; 
lutr[92]= 195; lutg[92]= 11; lutb[92]= 142; 
lutr[93]= 196; lutg[93]= 12; lutb[93]= 141; 
lutr[94]= 197; lutg[94]= 13; lutb[94]= 140; 
lutr[95]= 199; lutg[95]= 14; lutb[95]= 138; 
lutr[96]= 200; lutg[96]= 16; lutb[96]= 136; 
lutr[97]= 201; lutg[97]= 18; lutb[97]= 134; 
lutr[98]= 202; lutg[98]= 19; lutb[98]= 133; 
lutr[99]= 203; lutg[99]= 20; lutb[99]= 131; 
lutr[100]= 205; lutg[100]= 22; lutb[100]= 129; 
lutr[101]= 206; lutg[101]= 23; lutb[101]= 127; 
lutr[102]= 207; lutg[102]= 25; lutb[102]= 124; 
lutr[103]= 208; lutg[103]= 26; lutb[103]= 121; 
lutr[104]= 209; lutg[104]= 27; lutb[104]= 119; 
lutr[105]= 210; lutg[105]= 29; lutb[105]= 116; 
lutr[106]= 211; lutg[106]= 31; lutb[106]= 114; 
lutr[107]= 212; lutg[107]= 33; lutb[107]= 112; 
lutr[108]= 213; lutg[108]= 34; lutb[108]= 108; 
lutr[109]= 214; lutg[109]= 36; lutb[109]= 104; 
lutr[110]= 215; lutg[110]= 38; lutb[110]= 101; 
lutr[111]= 216; lutg[111]= 40; lutb[111]= 98; 
lutr[112]= 217; lutg[112]= 42; lutb[112]= 95; 
lutr[113]= 218; lutg[113]= 45; lutb[113]= 92; 
lutr[114]= 219; lutg[114]= 47; lutb[114]= 87; 
lutr[115]= 220; lutg[115]= 48; lutb[115]= 82; 
lutr[116]= 221; lutg[116]= 49; lutb[116]= 77; 
lutr[117]= 222; lutg[117]= 51; lutb[117]= 71; 
lutr[118]= 223; lutg[118]= 53; lutb[118]= 65; 
lutr[119]= 224; lutg[119]= 55; lutb[119]= 60; 
lutr[120]= 224; lutg[120]= 56; lutb[120]= 54; 
lutr[121]= 225; lutg[121]= 58; lutb[121]= 49; 
lutr[122]= 226; lutg[122]= 60; lutb[122]= 43; 
lutr[123]= 227; lutg[123]= 62; lutb[123]= 37; 
lutr[124]= 228; lutg[124]= 63; lutb[124]= 32; 
lutr[125]= 228; lutg[125]= 65; lutb[125]= 28; 
lutr[126]= 229; lutg[126]= 67; lutb[126]= 26; 
lutr[127]= 230; lutg[127]= 69; lutb[127]= 24; 
lutr[128]= 230; lutg[128]= 71; lutb[128]= 21; 
lutr[129]= 231; lutg[129]= 73; lutb[129]= 19; 
lutr[130]= 232; lutg[130]= 75; lutb[130]= 17; 
lutr[131]= 232; lutg[131]= 76; lutb[131]= 15; 
lutr[132]= 233; lutg[132]= 77; lutb[132]= 13; 
lutr[133]= 234; lutg[133]= 78; lutb[133]= 12; 
lutr[134]= 235; lutg[134]= 80; lutb[134]= 11; 
lutr[135]= 235; lutg[135]= 82; lutb[135]= 10; 
lutr[136]= 235; lutg[136]= 84; lutb[136]= 9; 
lutr[137]= 236; lutg[137]= 86; lutb[137]= 8; 
lutr[138]= 236; lutg[138]= 88; lutb[138]= 8; 
lutr[139]= 237; lutg[139]= 90; lutb[139]= 7; 
lutr[140]= 237; lutg[140]= 91; lutb[140]= 6; 
lutr[141]= 238; lutg[141]= 92; lutb[141]= 5; 
lutr[142]= 238; lutg[142]= 94; lutb[142]= 5; 
lutr[143]= 239; lutg[143]= 95; lutb[143]= 4; 
lutr[144]= 239; lutg[144]= 97; lutb[144]= 4; 
lutr[145]= 240; lutg[145]= 99; lutb[145]= 3; 
lutr[146]= 240; lutg[146]= 101; lutb[146]= 3; 
lutr[147]= 241; lutg[147]= 102; lutb[147]= 3; 
lutr[148]= 241; lutg[148]= 103; lutb[148]= 3; 
lutr[149]= 241; lutg[149]= 105; lutb[149]= 2; 
lutr[150]= 241; lutg[150]= 106; lutb[150]= 2; 
lutr[151]= 241; lutg[151]= 108; lutb[151]= 1; 
lutr[152]= 242; lutg[152]= 109; lutb[152]= 1; 
lutr[153]= 242; lutg[153]= 111; lutb[153]= 1; 
lutr[154]= 243; lutg[154]= 113; lutb[154]= 1; 
lutr[155]= 243; lutg[155]= 114; lutb[155]= 1; 
lutr[156]= 244; lutg[156]= 116; lutb[156]= 0; 
lutr[157]= 244; lutg[157]= 117; lutb[157]= 0; 
lutr[158]= 244; lutg[158]= 119; lutb[158]= 0; 
lutr[159]= 244; lutg[159]= 121; lutb[159]= 0; 
lutr[160]= 245; lutg[160]= 124; lutb[160]= 0; 
lutr[161]= 245; lutg[161]= 126; lutb[161]= 0; 
lutr[162]= 246; lutg[162]= 128; lutb[162]= 0; 
lutr[163]= 246; lutg[163]= 130; lutb[163]= 0; 
lutr[164]= 247; lutg[164]= 131; lutb[164]= 0; 
lutr[165]= 247; lutg[165]= 133; lutb[165]= 0; 
lutr[166]= 248; lutg[166]= 135; lutb[166]= 0; 
lutr[167]= 248; lutg[167]= 136; lutb[167]= 0; 
lutr[168]= 248; lutg[168]= 137; lutb[168]= 0; 
lutr[169]= 248; lutg[169]= 139; lutb[169]= 0; 
lutr[170]= 248; lutg[170]= 140; lutb[170]= 0; 
lutr[171]= 249; lutg[171]= 142; lutb[171]= 0; 
lutr[172]= 249; lutg[172]= 143; lutb[172]= 0; 
lutr[173]= 249; lutg[173]= 144; lutb[173]= 0; 
lutr[174]= 249; lutg[174]= 146; lutb[174]= 0; 
lutr[175]= 250; lutg[175]= 148; lutb[175]= 0; 
lutr[176]= 250; lutg[176]= 150; lutb[176]= 0; 
lutr[177]= 251; lutg[177]= 152; lutb[177]= 0; 
lutr[178]= 251; lutg[178]= 155; lutb[178]= 0; 
lutr[179]= 252; lutg[179]= 157; lutb[179]= 0; 
lutr[180]= 252; lutg[180]= 159; lutb[180]= 0; 
lutr[181]= 253; lutg[181]= 161; lutb[181]= 0; 
lutr[182]= 253; lutg[182]= 163; lutb[182]= 0; 
lutr[183]= 253; lutg[183]= 166; lutb[183]= 0; 
lutr[184]= 253; lutg[184]= 168; lutb[184]= 0; 
lutr[185]= 253; lutg[185]= 170; lutb[185]= 0; 
lutr[186]= 253; lutg[186]= 172; lutb[186]= 0; 
lutr[187]= 253; lutg[187]= 174; lutb[187]= 0; 
lutr[188]= 254; lutg[188]= 175; lutb[188]= 0; 
lutr[189]= 254; lutg[189]= 177; lutb[189]= 0; 
lutr[190]= 254; lutg[190]= 178; lutb[190]= 0; 
lutr[191]= 254; lutg[191]= 180; lutb[191]= 0; 
lutr[192]= 254; lutg[192]= 183; lutb[192]= 0; 
lutr[193]= 254; lutg[193]= 185; lutb[193]= 0; 
lutr[194]= 254; lutg[194]= 186; lutb[194]= 0; 
lutr[195]= 254; lutg[195]= 188; lutb[195]= 0; 
lutr[196]= 254; lutg[196]= 189; lutb[196]= 0; 
lutr[197]= 254; lutg[197]= 191; lutb[197]= 0; 
lutr[198]= 254; lutg[198]= 193; lutb[198]= 0; 
lutr[199]= 254; lutg[199]= 195; lutb[199]= 0; 
lutr[200]= 254; lutg[200]= 197; lutb[200]= 0; 
lutr[201]= 254; lutg[201]= 199; lutb[201]= 0; 
lutr[202]= 254; lutg[202]= 200; lutb[202]= 0; 
lutr[203]= 254; lutg[203]= 202; lutb[203]= 1; 
lutr[204]= 254; lutg[204]= 203; lutb[204]= 1; 
lutr[205]= 254; lutg[205]= 204; lutb[205]= 2; 
lutr[206]= 254; lutg[206]= 206; lutb[206]= 3; 
lutr[207]= 254; lutg[207]= 207; lutb[207]= 4; 
lutr[208]= 254; lutg[208]= 209; lutb[208]= 6; 
lutr[209]= 254; lutg[209]= 211; lutb[209]= 8; 
lutr[210]= 254; lutg[210]= 213; lutb[210]= 10; 
lutr[211]= 254; lutg[211]= 215; lutb[211]= 11; 
lutr[212]= 254; lutg[212]= 216; lutb[212]= 12; 
lutr[213]= 255; lutg[213]= 218; lutb[213]= 14; 
lutr[214]= 255; lutg[214]= 219; lutb[214]= 16; 
lutr[215]= 255; lutg[215]= 220; lutb[215]= 19; 
lutr[216]= 255; lutg[216]= 221; lutb[216]= 23; 
lutr[217]= 255; lutg[217]= 222; lutb[217]= 27; 
lutr[218]= 255; lutg[218]= 224; lutb[218]= 31; 
lutr[219]= 255; lutg[219]= 225; lutb[219]= 35; 
lutr[220]= 255; lutg[220]= 227; lutb[220]= 38; 
lutr[221]= 255; lutg[221]= 228; lutb[221]= 42; 
lutr[222]= 255; lutg[222]= 229; lutb[222]= 48; 
lutr[223]= 255; lutg[223]= 230; lutb[223]= 53; 
lutr[224]= 255; lutg[224]= 231; lutb[224]= 60; 
lutr[225]= 255; lutg[225]= 233; lutb[225]= 65; 
lutr[226]= 255; lutg[226]= 234; lutb[226]= 71; 
lutr[227]= 255; lutg[227]= 235; lutb[227]= 77; 
lutr[228]= 255; lutg[228]= 237; lutb[228]= 83; 
lutr[229]= 255; lutg[229]= 238; lutb[229]= 89; 
lutr[230]= 255; lutg[230]= 239; lutb[230]= 96; 
lutr[231]= 255; lutg[231]= 239; lutb[231]= 102; 
lutr[232]= 255; lutg[232]= 240; lutb[232]= 109; 
lutr[233]= 255; lutg[233]= 241; lutb[233]= 115; 
lutr[234]= 255; lutg[234]= 241; lutb[234]= 124; 
lutr[235]= 255; lutg[235]= 242; lutb[235]= 132; 
lutr[236]= 255; lutg[236]= 243; lutb[236]= 139; 
lutr[237]= 255; lutg[237]= 244; lutb[237]= 146; 
lutr[238]= 255; lutg[238]= 244; lutb[238]= 153; 
lutr[239]= 255; lutg[239]= 245; lutb[239]= 160; 
lutr[240]= 255; lutg[240]= 245; lutb[240]= 168; 
lutr[241]= 255; lutg[241]= 246; lutb[241]= 175; 
lutr[242]= 255; lutg[242]= 247; lutb[242]= 181; 
lutr[243]= 255; lutg[243]= 248; lutb[243]= 187; 
lutr[244]= 255; lutg[244]= 248; lutb[244]= 193; 
lutr[245]= 255; lutg[245]= 249; lutb[245]= 198; 
lutr[246]= 255; lutg[246]= 249; lutb[246]= 204; 
lutr[247]= 255; lutg[247]= 250; lutb[247]= 210; 
lutr[248]= 255; lutg[248]= 251; lutb[248]= 216; 
lutr[249]= 255; lutg[249]= 252; lutb[249]= 222; 
lutr[250]= 255; lutg[250]= 253; lutb[250]= 227; 
lutr[251]= 255; lutg[251]= 253; lutb[251]= 232; 
lutr[252]= 255; lutg[252]= 254; lutb[252]= 237; 
lutr[253]= 255; lutg[253]= 254; lutb[253]= 243; 
lutr[254]= 255; lutg[254]= 255; lutb[254]= 247; 
lutr[255]= 255; lutg[255]= 255; lutb[255]= 249; 

}

(*pr)= lutr[idx];
(*pg)= lutg[idx];
(*pb)= lutb[idx];
}


unsigned int seek_thermal_lut_iron256_size() {
return 256;
}

 #endif //_SEEK_THERMAL_LUT_IRON256_C_

Maybe Seek Thermal will provide some developers tools for accessing this device raw sensor image  from Window$ and Linux  soon ;)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 27, 2014, 05:05:50 pm
I suspect seek's SDK will be very basic. As in, what you can do in the app will be what you can do in the SDK. They may deliver the uncolored data in an array, but don't hold your breath. I definitely wouldn't expect unprocessed data. They have to maintain the 9hz to make their camera ITAR safe.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sgstair on October 27, 2014, 07:42:07 pm
@miguelvp, @frenky
May I incorporate your posted code into my library (with attribution) under the MIT license?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 27, 2014, 07:45:00 pm
Sure, no problem...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 27, 2014, 08:05:09 pm
Sure thing, but I have more to come, double the resolution and frenky's noise reduction.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115067;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Sensor Geek on October 27, 2014, 08:45:44 pm
Just noticed that Seek removed their phone number from the website. Noting here for reference:

Seek Thermal
6489 Calle Real # E
Santa Barbara, CA 93117
844.733.4328

I have a 2nd order pending (under #10000 from 2nd week of Oct) that I wanted to cancel due to the issue I have with the first one, but the ordering system switches into "processing" mode the minute you order and does not allow you to cancel on the site. Emails are not returned and the phone number above allows only voicemail to be left and cuts you off after a few seconds.

This is a real tragedy and I think it's fair to warn off people that are thinking about this device. Sure, they're a startup and it's a new product, and I get that bugs are to be expected, especially for a low-end device like this. I also expected that it would come close to the advertised capabilities (not even) and that the company would put someone on the phones or email system to handle inquiries. Instead we get stone-walled by the company which shipped a camera that takes images packed with noise (not readily seen on the site's images and videos), what seems like an image that doesn't come close to Flir's 80x60 product (even without MSX), large numbers of dead pixels and this gradient that wrecks whatever usefulness it might have had even with the other flaws.

The first one I'm willing to eat the cost and maybe if I crack the case it's fixable. That's fine, it was a gamble and they sent me one more thing for my "maybe fixable" drawer. The 2nd unit I simply don't want at all and there doesn't seem to be a way to canc the order. Frustrating at best, and totally avoidable had they simply communicated with their customers.

Edit: Oct 31 2014: Seek has cancelled my 2nd order at my request. Unknown if it was due to my request by email or phone.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 27, 2014, 09:09:24 pm
If you got the order in fairly early, and it arrives soon-ish chances are you can flip it on ebay for a profit. Looking at their FB page seems the order numbers are well over 10K
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 27, 2014, 09:12:03 pm
Not happy with this code,I want to combine both into a single loop since pretty much we are doing the same thing.

I left the part of my code that does the edges and then let a modified version of frenky's code to cleanup the rest.
Made the bitmap twice as big and it just does pixel replication (each pixel is really 2x2)
Change the number of buffers drawn to just 1.

I wan't to read a key now to capture the after lens reference image by facing the camera down while you press the key so we can get rid of that noise too. I want to get to something similar or better than this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115076;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Sensor Geek on October 27, 2014, 09:18:08 pm
If you got the order in fairly early, and it arrives soon-ish chances are you can flip it on ebay for a profit. Looking at their FB page seems the order numbers are well over 10K

True enough. I'd be more inclined to ship it off to you gratis.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 27, 2014, 09:19:31 pm
The 2nd unit I simply don't want at all and there doesn't seem to be a way to canc the order.
I would be very happy to buy it from you if it's android version and you would be willing to ship it to Europe?
I will cover shipping costs...

I would love to try some super resolution algorithms on raw data to get really great images out of it...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 27, 2014, 09:19:56 pm
@Sensor Geek,

Panic slowly ;)

I suggest you email SEEK formally advising them that you wish to cancel your order and provide the reason as 'not fit for purpose'. State that you wish to receive a refund within 5 days. I hope that you paid with a Credit Card. If so, you can always obtain a refund on your payment through them and they will pursue SEEK for their money. You already have a camera so can state that it is not as described and unfit for purpose. You could likely recover the money for the first camera as well.

I am happy to take delivery of my SEEK order as I don't think this duck is dead yet  ;D

I do have to agree with you though...the images that I have seen to date from users are disappointing and the camera is displaying some serious noise issues combined with unexpected numbers of dead pixels and appalling thermal gradient after a FFC event.

The SEEK appears to be very much a work in progress and I can accept that but what I cannot accept is a company that will not communicate with owners asking for help or comment on the issues. Somewhat worrying if they are already hunkering down with their tin hats on.

Surely not another Mu mess in the making ? At least they produced a physical product though.

No response to my email either but then its only been a day. Nil response will be most unfortunate.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 27, 2014, 09:35:18 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzsTsFvHss8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzsTsFvHss8#ws)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 27, 2014, 09:36:40 pm
I definitely wouldn't expect unprocessed data. They have to maintain the 9hz to make their camera ITAR safe.
Why not? They can simply make toy version hardware eg. with voltage regulators operating temperature 0*C-70*C or use ICs in non MIL versions as well as simplify design and make this thing not usable on battle fields.
For example issue with this thermal gradient detected  ???
Endless posibilities to make this hardware usable only in perfect conditions like room temperature, etc  ;)

Probably they had to do it, while reprogramming on board PCB MPU is not a big problem for skilled electronics guys.

Than, not problem what so ever to give someone even low level API while without hardware modyfications they can't get more from this device than it was designed for... maybe like a toy, while they do not provided even temperature scale on LUT map overlay in their app  :-DD

Sure thing, but I have more to come, double the resolution and frenky's noise reduction.
Still, you have guys black pixels column on the right  >:D

Anyway, did you tried to make noise reduction, but using not ONLY one frame but series with some kind of moving average or other methods?
In the case of one image only a little bit of blur to smooth looks nice depending on use case, so one simply need to be able control level of smoothing and this is what I'd like to have in my app, so implemented it.
(http://s5.postimg.org/3pwurfc6b/out_gamma10_blur2_seek_thermal_sensor_usb_hero_8.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3pwurfc6b/)

If one could improove lens in this Seek Thermal camera to be able to do optical magnification of small elements as Mike shown in his first vblog it could be nice.
@Mike - Could you disclosure what external lens you used in your Seek Thermal teradown 1 vbog if this is not a mystery, please?
They very nice fitted on oryginal ones and it looked like easy enhancement DIY to make, but we need proper lens for IR   8)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 27, 2014, 10:00:40 pm
ZnSe CO2 laser focus lens. these are either Biconvex or Plano Convex. Both will work OK. Plano Convex is likely the best performing of the two however.

On ebay for around $20. Choose your diameter and the focal length that suits your needs  :)

I have been using these lenses for years for close up work and they are still the cheapest way to achieve it.

More information may be found in my "FLIR E4 Useful information" thread on this forum.

I tend to use the 100mm FL and 50mm FL types. These have also been used to good effect on the FLIR E4.

ZnSe lenses are common in certain thermal camera optics as a high transmission efficiency and relatively cheap element. The down side is their huge pass-band so they are used in combination with filters or Germanium Lenses for Thermal work.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 27, 2014, 10:12:11 pm
@eneuro,

I am referring to the fact that they wouldn't develop an SDK that does more than the app allows. They have clearly targeted this device at the average Joe, they have done enough work to call it satisfactory for the pricepoint. The SDK will leave much to be desired. The issues with the camera, while yes they suck, are to be expected at $200. I'm looking forward to seeing what people come up with on the firmware, perhaps the real value is there.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 27, 2014, 10:34:06 pm
An obvious app would be something that can give lower noise images at the expense of lower framerate
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 27, 2014, 10:46:23 pm
The SDK will positively be one that allows creation of apps in the "Thermal-to-facebook", or "HOW HOT IS SHE?" or "paranormal hunting" or "100% functional lie detector" ballpark, nothing useful, just your regular advertising-ridden google analytics equipped consumer bullcrap. Plus I reckon there's an EULA to the SDK, so for me a definite no-go.

Let's focus on the hardware hacking, as that's where the magic happens...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 27, 2014, 10:49:12 pm
@Mike,

I just watched your latest SEEK video....... excellent as ever.

You have been very thorough in your investigation.

I was unimpressed to see contamination of the microbolometer and the rear of the lens. Whilst it did not appear to have an effect on the image, it isn't good to see.

With regard to the lens positioning....I have to admit to being very surprised. It looks like no optical block issue that I have seen before.  :-//

Not wanting to be flippant about this lens issue.....but if my SEEK would benefit from something a little higher class, I have a lens looking for a microbolometer to illuminate ... pictures attached.

It is somewhat higher quality than the SEEK lens but then it did originally cost over $3000 !

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on October 27, 2014, 11:10:01 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzsTsFvHss8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzsTsFvHss8#ws)

Great stuff, Mike!

Assuming it is indeed lens positioning rather than the shutter, which you seem to show, then really all that would be needed is to build a Flat Field of the lens pointing to a flat source (without the shutter in the way) and apply it to the output (after the full shutter calibration).  That should flatten the output and be a whole lot easier than fixing the lens.   Would be awesome if Seek provided an advanced option menu where you could create this flat field yourself with a single button push.  Since it's a gradual gradient, it could be heavily filtered so it doesn't introduce noise.   It should be relatively stable as well, assuming the lens doesn't shift.

I am still curious about the time based changing of the gradient (starts small and maxes out after a few minutes).   I know you did show it was still relatively stable with your lens adjusted even overnight (but still a few degrees), so maybe it's a secondary, smaller thermal effect.

Once the SDK is available, we could post-process the images in another app, but it wouldn't fix the temperature measurement.

Here's to hoping!

Thanks again for your hard work!

Rick
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: tom66 on October 27, 2014, 11:32:59 pm
For dead pixel reduction, why not follow the way of LEPTON (which actually has a fairly noisy sensor but uses a lot of processing.)

The methods are patented, but you can do it for research purposes only ;). Simply look for stuck pixels in moving images, pixels which do not change much when the rest of the image goes. Mark these on a mask, and replace them with a regional average of neighbouring pixels. For columns and rows, take the sum of each, and compare to the neighbours over multiple frames. If there appear to be particularly strong columns/rows, reduce the gain of it until it is similar to its neighbours.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 27, 2014, 11:33:43 pm
I wonder if it might be seeing the edge of the aperture in the lens assembly, in which case the temperature of the assembly may have an effect.
Something I noticed was that the gradient was much higher when looking at a cold scene, which would seem to be consistent with it seeing a constant warm-ish object at the edge of the FOV
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 28, 2014, 12:16:38 am
ZnSe CO2 laser focus lens. these are either Biconvex or Plano Convex. Both will work OK. Plano Convex is likely the best performing
...
ZnSe lense are common in certain thermal camera optics as a high transmission efficiency and relatively cheap element.
Thx for those hints  ;)
If they are usable with laser stuff this is additional bonus.

But what about using them with such MLX90614   Digital, plug & play, infrared thermometer in a TO-can (http://www.melexis.com/Infrared-Thermometer-Sensors/Infrared-Thermometer-Sensors/MLX90614-615.aspx) to focus IR on this sensor from bigger area, for example sensor closed in spherical enclusure and such lens in front to try get some kind of average temperature from parallel traces by moveing (rotating in 3 axis) this device by some kind of gimbal with stepper motors?
(http://www.melexis.com/prodfiles%5C0005150_IR_sensor.jpg)
Point it into different directions and get estimate temperature average without using any thermal camera.
This sensor costs less than 10$, so lens at this price level could be fine if it had a chance to work  8)

I'll try investigate this andl take a look what available sizes of such lenses are-the bigger diameter the better, I guess for this.

I'm looking forward to seeing what people come up with on the firmware, perhaps the real value is there.
My guess is that next @Mike's teardown Seek Thermal video might be... applying logic analyser to a few of these 18 wires close to the sensor and hacking its communication protocol, while it survived milling and complete lens disassembling and still outputs some decent thermal imaginery :-DD
(http://s5.postimg.org/rbxiwzbdv/out_gamma10_blur0_seek_thermal_sensor_without_le.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/rbxiwzbdv/)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: tmbinc on October 28, 2014, 12:33:29 am
If you compare the image quality, for example with a Flir E4, keep in mind that the E4 does *extensive* digital image post-processing.

If you want a fair comparison, try "rset .image.flow.digitalFilter.globEnabled false" on the FLIR; the image gets a LOT crappier, and there's a very visible temperature gradient with the shutter closed, even after a NUC event.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 28, 2014, 02:22:38 am
Got somewhere, still not stable:

I was aiming for this (done with paintshop pro arithmetic functions):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115076;image)

I got this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115114;image)

It's kind of an improvement from this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115067;image)
Other than I loose some details on the grids.

But it only works for about one minute then I loose the reference image and I get a blank screen. In order to use it I have to start the program with the camera pointing down so that it can acquire a reference image of the background noise.

Then per frame it subtracts it and computes the max/min again. I'm not too familiar with managed c, actually I can probably count the times I used c# with both hands. So I have to figure out how to add a keyboard event to the Form, I think I just have to call it Form1_KeyDown or Form1_KeyPress
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 28, 2014, 03:03:49 am
If the problem is the lens (recategorizing this issue from the minor design flaw category into the total design fail one), the solution to this would be to place the shutter in front of the lens.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 28, 2014, 04:47:20 am
Doesn't the flir one use a shutter in front of the lens?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: sgstair on October 28, 2014, 05:08:19 am
@miguelvp, I'd add a button control to the form in the UI editor and double click on it to create a new event handler. If you really want the keyboard, in the UI editor properties window, the events tab will let you hook a KeyPress event (or in Form1(), this.KeyPress += <event function>; MSDN has all the details.)
I'm ultimately going to seriously refactor a lot of this stuff, I have some things I'd like to add also.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 28, 2014, 08:00:32 am
@miguelvp, I'd add a button control to the form in the UI editor and double click on it to create a new event handler. If you really want the keyboard, in the UI editor properties window, the events tab will let you hook a KeyPress event (or in Form1(), this.KeyPress += <event function>; MSDN has all the details.)
I'm ultimately going to seriously refactor a lot of this stuff, I have some things I'd like to add also.

I did that and added a label although it probably should be something other than a label. I did use MFC around 20 years ago, so this is not terribly different other than I forgot (or blocked) all of it.
Feel free to refactor this because I'm truly lost in c#, well not lost as in I can do things with it, but I don't have the energy to study it further.


I'm attaching my project as it's now. I had to make MinValue and MaxValue public and rewritetable and I'm not sure how to pass just the stuff that got modified to add that button. It's still unstable,l it will give up after a while but you can always press the calibrate button to do so.


There is still plenty of work to do, this only calibrates to certain mean temperature (whatever surface you use to do the calibration, other temperatures will see the banding, I think it can be characterized for different hardware but I'm not setup for that)
.
The first calibration goes away, but now if you click the button it will calibrate it again and I didn't see that one time out yet.

So please clean it up and refactor it any way you see fit, I'm not proficient with c# at al.

Next thing is a legend with temperatures based on what the original sensor sees. (kind of same as min max, but for temperatures)


Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on October 28, 2014, 08:29:15 am
I would not convert the data to 8bit before applying the palette: The hot metal palette allows to display about 1024 different colours. Especially after scaling the image to double size, this gives a much more smooth display and shows more details than rounding to 8bit.
These are old pictures I took several years ago with a quite expensive camera, so there are not really comparable to seek images, but they clearly show the difference between palettes. The first one is the original image from the camera, the others are processed images using the 16bit thermal data. The last image uses almost the same palatte as the original picture, but it shows much more details. It uses 1536 different colours instead of 256 and it is upscaled to double size. It looks a bit strange compared to hot metal, but it shows the most details.
Upscaling the image data by 2 makes a big difference. The finer details are easily visible. I did use a lanczos scaling algorithm, it is really great for upscaling image data.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 28, 2014, 08:36:36 am
My opinion for best way to dead pixel removal and noise control.

Dead pixel problem:
Take an image from thermally equal surface, convert it into black and white. Mark position of all dead pixels and replace it like this:
Get values from top, bottom, left and right neighbor pixel. Check which pair (horizontal or vertical) has smallest difference in color.
Calculated pixel should have the average value of this pair. This will work great on small vertical or horizontal changes in temperature.
(My code already implements this)

Noise control:
One way is to subtract image taken from thermally equal surface (I think miguelvp is already doing this.)
The other more complex way is this: http://ofb.net/~ania/professional/vibret/ (http://ofb.net/~ania/professional/vibret/)
So physically rotate module so that each pixel makes a circle then calculate average pixel value in each position.
(This could be also used to increase resolution)
We could use sensors in the phone to calculate offset for each captured frame.

Have fun,
Frenky
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on October 28, 2014, 09:02:03 am
My opinion for best way to dead pixel removal and noise control.

Dead pixel problem:
Take an image from thermally equal surface, convert it into black and white. Mark position of all dead pixels and replace it like this:
Get values from top, bottom, left and right neighbor pixel. Check which pair (horizontal or vertical) has smallest difference in color.
Calculated pixel should have the average value of this pair. This will work great on small vertical or horizontal changes in temperature.
(My code already implements this)

If you use multiple frames from a moving image then this should be possible in background without any need for a manual calibration:
- Detect dead pixels as you described
- Filter the dead pixel map over several frames, but update only when the image is changing (to avoid false masking of good pixels in static scenes)
- Use the generated dead pixel mask to clean the image

It should be even possible to compensate hot pixels (pixels that are not completely dead but have a significant difference in gain, so they can not be compensated with the shutter).
Maybe it could be even possible to predict the drift between shutter calibrations and remove the remaining nonuniformity.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 28, 2014, 09:10:43 am
If you use multiple frames from a moving image then this should be possible in background without any need for a manual calibration:
- Detect dead pixels as you described
- Filter the dead pixel map over several frames, but update only when the image is changing (to avoid false masking of good pixels in static scenes)
- Use the generated dead pixel mask to clean the image

It should be even possible to compensate hot pixels (pixels that are not completely dead but have a significant difference in gain, so they can not be compensated with the shutter).
Maybe it could be even possible to predict the drift between shutter calibrations and remove the remaining nonuniformity.

Agreed...

I have found this great lecture on super-resolution:
http://videolectures.net/nipsworkshops2011_sroubek_mobile/ (http://videolectures.net/nipsworkshops2011_sroubek_mobile/)

First 20min is mostly theory but I think it's worth seeing...

Must see is:
At 19:42 - implementation of super-resolution in TESTO thermal cameras
At 22:37 - implementation of super-resolution in smartphones (by using gyroscope and accelerometer)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on October 28, 2014, 10:02:45 am
I only skimmed though the video, but from my experiance with superresolution (both as final product embedded in a digital camera and playing with some algorithms) it works in theory but is not really good for practical usage except with a lot of manual tweaking for each scene.
The main idea behind superresolution is, that the resolution of the sensor is the limiting factor. It is similar to random sampling used in DSOs. But in case of the seek camera the image is quite blurred because of the cheap optics and the avaraging of frames inside the camera. Therefore superresolution is not really usable here. At least it will not give any great improvement without generating unwanted artefacts in the image.

With the nonuniformity (both the gradient and the static noise pattern) and the noise further removed from the data, the seek images should look pretty good.
The processed image of the wifi router looks already quite good compared to the original data.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 28, 2014, 10:47:15 am
I would not convert the data to 8bit before applying the palette: The hot metal palette allows to display about 1024 different colours. Especially after scaling the image to double size, this gives a much more smooth display and shows more details than rounding to 8bit.
Yep, I used this Iron palette at size 256 so far, ONLY for the reason that any sensor available raw data provided there I was able to obtain was from those images included in this thread and they are degraded to RGBA 8bit per channel, but in my libseekthermal.so.1.01 I use DOUBLE matrix in image processing operations, so with acceess to oryginal 14bit sensor data it is easy to convert them to double, make image processing enhancements and then take for example 10bit palette so about 1024 palette size not 256.
That is why my C functions definitions are unsigned int (16bit or more depending on architecture) NOT unsigned char (8bit) when accessing any LUT table  ;)

Quote
void seek_thermal_lut_iron256_get(unsigned int idx, unsigned char *pr, unsigned char *pg, unsigned char *pb );
unsigned int seek_thermal_lut_iron256_size();
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mimmus78 on October 28, 2014, 11:09:19 am
In photography a good way to mask dead pixels is to take a shoot of completely black (with cover on lens) image and completely white image (photo of clear sky with focus set as near as possible) and mask pixels that do not average near black or white.

Don't know if similar way can be used to thermal images too (just use very cold and hot as you can surface).
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 28, 2014, 12:59:40 pm
Mike,

Regarding the temperature gradient issue.

I thought he same as you when I saw the small aperture at the rear of the lens 'tube'. I am also considering the effect that may be caused when the lens 'tube' touches the microbolometer on one side as appeared to be the case in your video.

If the lens tube is warmer than the microbolometer, contact between the two could potentially cause a localised heat transfer into the microbolometer. The area in contact and adjacent would be warmed, but the opposite side of the microbolometer is adjacent to the shutter access hole and may stay cooler as a result due to air cooling. As the camera warms up, the lens tube may continue to rise in temperature and cause greater temperature differential impact on the microbolometer. Just a thought.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 28, 2014, 01:36:31 pm
Mike,

Regarding the temperature gradient issue.

I thought he same as you when I saw teh small aperture at the rear of the lens 'tube'. I am slo considering the eefect that may be caused when teh lens 'tube' touches teh microbolometer on one side as appeared to be the case in your video.

If the lens tube is warmer than the microbolometer, contact between teh two could potentially cause a localised heat transfer into the microbolometer. The area in contact and adjacent would be warmed but the opposite side of the microbolometer is adjacent to the shutter access hole and may stay cooler as a result due to air cooling. As the camera warms up, teh lens tube may continue to rise in temperature and cause greater temperature differential impact on teh microbolometer. Just a thought.

Aurora
If that was the case, the effect would be the same with the shutter open or closed.
 
My guess is that as the lens holder appeared to be pretty much touching the sensor, it could be that there wasn't enough room for it to get into the exact position it needed, and was endstopped and mounted in a "good enough" position.
Before experimenting with position, I ground out the inside wall to allow a wider range of positions, but hard to say how the "good" position I found related to the original one.
 
The ongoing slow shipping may indicate they are having production issues, maybe this,  and are willing to ship whatever they can get to work reasonably well. The lensholder is a casting, so not easy to make quick changes to.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 28, 2014, 01:58:33 pm
I only skimmed though the video, but from my experience with superresolution (both as final product embedded in a digital camera and playing with some algorithms) it works in theory but is not really good for practical usage except with a lot of manual tweaking for each scene.
The man having the lecture was obviously involved in developing this feature in TESTO thermal cameras:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jojgIgTJChY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jojgIgTJChY)

So they did managed to implement it into a real product.

I've been playing with it too and results are encouraging. (See attachment)
But I agree that its a big difference doing it on simulated downgraded images or in the real world...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on October 28, 2014, 02:11:45 pm
I've been playing with it too and results are encouraging. (See attachement)
Wow, that looks great! The resolution fits, but they look too good to be images from the seek camera.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 28, 2014, 02:24:37 pm
No they aren't because I don't have the module yet.
What I have done:
- Found hi-res thermal image online
- make 4 crops with small offset
- resize all 4 images to 50%
- use very basic super-res technique to build hi-res file from 4 small

So this was just for fun...
With the real images the biggest challenge will be to get correct offset between frames.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on October 28, 2014, 02:43:58 pm
No they aren't because I don't have the module yet.
What I have done:
- resize all 4 images to 50%
That is exactly what most people do: Taking an image, resizing it and using superresolution to recreate the original file. This works well, but with real images it gets hard.
I have downloaded some superresolution demos. Using the supplied downsized images, the results were surprising. But using own images from a low resolution camera did not work at all, because they were not sharp enough. Therefore I doubt it will work very well with the seek camera, but it would be great.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 28, 2014, 02:44:40 pm
I did play around with wavelets a while back, maybe I should use that to get rid off the noise at the expense of the edges being altered a bit. My implementation was 2 dimensional for the compression and I was using it for edge detection, although it didn't do that great on some situations.

The processing time is not  terrible but I think to do all that I need to go to C++.

Also my crude attempts to store the mask is only good for the temperature you are focusing on, for example if you want to measure flesh without banding you can calibrate the camera on that range and the banding disappears on the flesh, but the banding appears on the background. The opposite is true as well, if you calibrate it using background temp, then the banding disappears but shows up in flesh.

Seems to be linear but the data should be scaled depending on the temperature, so that the banding disappears for all frequencies.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 29, 2014, 01:01:43 am
So I'm thinking on doing the following:

Let the warm up and take a series of reference shots of 0 degrees Celsius (ice). Then take a series of shots of 100 degrees Celsius (boiling water). Use that data to compute a per pixel linear interpolation based on the data, this should take care of dead and reference pixels as well because the slope will be 0.

There is at least one special case where a reference pixel actually carries data from the camera. Then make tests to see if the response of the sensor is linear or not, if not linear then I guess I'll have to add more data points to characterize the sensor, I can borrow an IR reader to verify if it's linear or not.

I'm not abandoning the wavelets either because since they work in frequency domain it can be used to enhance the image further.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on October 29, 2014, 09:35:59 am
I also have a plans for this thing...
I'll make a small X-Y cnc like platform and mount it on a stand.
Hardware:
- arduino
- 2 stepper motors from DVD drive http://images.elektroda.net/85_1309460292.jpg (http://images.elektroda.net/85_1309460292.jpg)
- 2 stepper motor drivers http://goo.gl/JvFfpG (http://goo.gl/JvFfpG)

So I'll be able to precisely move the module while taking photos.
With combined data (offset distance+raw image data) it should be relatively easy to remove all the noise and even do some super resolution.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: kwallen on October 29, 2014, 09:41:09 am
Is there enough resolution in these devices to do stereoscopic thermal video?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 29, 2014, 10:44:07 am
I just visited the SEEK facebook page. There seem to be happy customers there and pictures look pretty reasonable for $199 !

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Seek-Thermal/628554970550411 (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Seek-Thermal/628554970550411)

Interesting that people with order numbers in the 1700's are now getting their cameras.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 29, 2014, 11:11:13 am
This pic looks GOOOOOD https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/p403x403/1779340_10107440634031644_4193828371859292485_n.jpg?oh=a0832251bb664421551ca14a40bb0107&oe=54AF3705&__gda__=1420626237_3e90ad32dc1196a0b40ce406413a636c (https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/p403x403/1779340_10107440634031644_4193828371859292485_n.jpg?oh=a0832251bb664421551ca14a40bb0107&oe=54AF3705&__gda__=1420626237_3e90ad32dc1196a0b40ce406413a636c)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 29, 2014, 11:12:04 am
There seem t be happy customers there and pictures look pretty reasonable for $199 !
Did you saw this comment by "Louis Rigo Jr"  :-DD
Quote
How about you stop trying to sell and give iPhone users an update!?!

Worth to see these visual vs IR comparisions from Motorola X with Seek Thermal tand look closer to those output IR images there:
http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/10/27/a-thermal-infrared-camera-attachment-for-smart-phone/ (http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/10/27/a-thermal-infrared-camera-attachment-for-smart-phone/)

Update: Raster of 8x8 pixels cleary visible and it does not look better than simply linear resize I used  from 208x156 to higher 832x624  >:D
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115317)
One  should be able to have options in this Seek Thermal app to toggle different setting depending on for what purposes we use thermal camera..

But tha's fine-this thing can be usable with additional external lens and own software written for given thermal analysis task  ;)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 29, 2014, 11:31:35 am
I decided to give SEEK a small 'prod in the ribs' and publicly ask them to comment on the thermal gradient, noise, dead pixel count and their lack of response to email on the topic. It may be a bit mean of me to out the issues on Facebook but SEEK need to improve their attitude and communications if they are to be a competitor in the thermal camera marketplace. I would have expected Ex Indigo employees to know that already. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

Fraser
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on October 29, 2014, 12:12:14 pm
Update: Raster of 8x8 pixels cleary visible and it does not look better than simply linear resize I used  from 208x156 to higher 832x624  >:D
The 8x8 blocks are probably due to jpeg compression, they are also on the visible image.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 29, 2014, 01:05:47 pm
I decided to give SEEK a small 'prod in the ribs' and publicly ask them to comment on the thermal gradient, noise, dead pixel count and their lack of response to email on the topic. It may be a bit mean of me to out the issues on Facebook but SEEK need to improve their attitude and communications if they are to be a competitor in the thermal camera marketplace. I would have expected Ex Indigo employees to know that already. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

Fraser

I don't use facebook nor have I an account so I don't know how it works, but can they delete the stuff you post? If my expectations are correct, this will be the case...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 29, 2014, 01:44:26 pm
I'm still curious about the black pixel pattern. Is this something that is common on vanadium oxide imagers?

Also, I found an article posted on gizmag about Raytheon producing smaller chips here
 
http://www.gizmag.com/raytheon-thermal-imaging-chip/32068/ (http://www.gizmag.com/raytheon-thermal-imaging-chip/32068/)

It looks like they are really designing these for detection of objects, not the quality or accuracy. Seek then sought (pun?) to license the design for use in a smartphone application, which is right along the lines of what Raytheon is targeting the sensor at. It's a good product, but never intended to be used commercially. In the article they specified it would be a flashlight replacement, and in my opinion likely much cheaper than issuing gen 3 night vision equipment to combat soldiers. Each mil-spec rated thermal monocular could be sold at half the cost of a pvs-14, given the thermal core is less than $200 in bulk, where an omni vii intensifier tube would fetch over $2500 even in the private sector. Of course, Freescale is actually the manufacturer of the die.

Perhaps anyone else has any speculations?
 
My general reason for posting all that is to clarify that seek probably can't fix, or will not waste time with, the quality of the image as it is currently good enough for detection and basic spot thermometry. Unless the sensor gets better, this is likely only going to improve slightly with software and small refinements in the assembly. Its obvious they have done heavy post processing to make the image look good enough to sell to consumers.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 29, 2014, 06:53:20 pm
Its obvious they have done heavy post processing to make the image look good enough to sell to consumers.
Thx for this link.
They have more customers than those thermal cameras for the moment, so all they have to do now is create very good but... their own marketing image  :-DD

The 8x8 blocks are probably due to jpeg compression
Later realized that too and missed it's not PNG when investigated this ;)

BTW: Is it even possible make shots from Seek Thermal app in something other than jpeg compressed?
Those videos are also probably are compressed and it is not lossless I guess.

Can anyone verify this just to know what is quality of those images and  what they output and allow to write to disk?  >:D
Is it possible to record data from this thermal cam as lossless images in their official released app?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Seek Thermal Tech on October 29, 2014, 07:30:41 pm
Seek Thermal has been following this thread with great interest.  We would like to be as transparent as possible, realizing that competition may use this as ammunition, but we believe that in the end we will be helped far more than hurt by an open and honest exchange.
 
Seek Thermal Inc. has been built from the ground up bring affordable IR sensors to the commercial market. 
 
We greatly appreciate the professional attitude and creative troubleshooting your collaborators have demonstrated.  We are actively reviewing our product to confirm your findings.  Identifying these issues early in our production cycle gives us a good opportunity to implement improvements when appropriate.  With the low cost of our camera some compromises need to be made between performance and cost.  We will be looking for cost effective improvements to address some of the issues you have identified. 
 
Epoxy invasion.  The good news is that our lens attachment process is fully automated.  Thus the process ‘should’ be well controlled and any corrective action should be effective with low variability.
 
We image test every detector visually before shipment, so the worst units will be screened out.  Our experience is that anything under the shutter will be almost perfectly removed by a Flat Field Calibration.
 
Thermal Gradient over time,  We are actively investigating possible improvements to this issue.  No resolution or definite direction yet.  Note that for ‘relative’ thermography where the spot is fixed in the center of the display, we expect thermography to retain its ‘relative’ accuracy. 
 
Dark Pixels.  No great mystery here.  Every 15th pixel is intentionally blanked to avoid a potential patent infringement.  Seek has an updated design for future product that eliminate the need for this measure.  With the effective blur length of a 12 micron pixel resolving 8-13 micron Radiation, loss of single isolated pixels does not (in itself) degrade image quality.  

Thank you again for your interest in our product, we look forward to continuing our dialogue with the community.

Best,
The Seek Thermal Team
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 29, 2014, 07:48:46 pm
Whoever you are (representative), thank you for your feedback!

Hmm, so blanking every 15th pixel, this is an interesting...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 29, 2014, 07:51:24 pm
Great to hear, answers some questions. Keep it up Seek Thermal
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: iRad on October 29, 2014, 08:13:12 pm
Seek Thermal has been following this thread with great interest.  We would like to be as transparent as possible, ... 

Thank you again for your interest in our product, we look forward to continuing our dialogue with the community.

Best,
The Seek Thermal Team

Thank you Seek Thermal for your reply and answering some of the concerns of a portion of your users. I'm sure everyone looks forward to your continued participation here, as it should help much to quell speculation and assure that Seek is indeed interested in a productive dialog with its customers.

That said, there is a very large portion of your customer base wanting to know when their iOS version of the camera will begin to ship. Unfortunately, we don't even have early production units to play with yet, and feel somewhat disadvantaged and displaced when reading these threads. I understand that there was a holdup until the App was released in the Apple App Store, but that has now been remedied (in fact an update to the iOS App has already been released since then). Please give us any news you can share on Seek's iOS camera availability.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 29, 2014, 08:27:20 pm
@Seek thermal,

Thank you for your engagement via this forum.

As you will see from this thread, many of us have high hopes for your company and its products. I am a long term user of FLIR cameras and the SEEK offers an amazing specification for the retail price that you have set.

I truly hope that your product is a runaway success and leads to further developments and products. As you will see from my post on Facebook, the concern to date has been a very unusual thermal gradient across the image and the image noise content. Noise may be improved with software but the temperature gradient appeared to be a hardware issue.

Thanks again for engaging... we are a useful and free human resource for UAT feedback.

Keep up the good work and communications  :-+

Fraser
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: KK on October 29, 2014, 09:12:47 pm
thumbs up to Seek Thermal for responding to these concerns. Here's to your success!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 29, 2014, 09:25:20 pm
Kudos to SEEK for joining the community, I'm very glad you guys don't just turn the blind eye!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 29, 2014, 10:58:59 pm
Dark Pixels.  No great mystery here.  Every 15th pixel is intentionally blanked to avoid a potential patent infringement.
I'm really curious to know what patent claim this works around - Flir (I presume it's them!) have a lot of patents to comb through though....
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 30, 2014, 12:31:38 am
Hello, we are not alone in this thread  ;)

Dark Pixels.
...
With the effective blur length of a 12 micron pixel resolving 8-13 micron Radiation, loss of single isolated pixels does not (in itself) degrade image quality. 
There is close to 7% such useless black pixels, so it might affect image quality depending on application  :-DMM

BTW: Maybe, It could be nice to send each EEVblog member in this thread who made some effort and wrote more than 3 posts there, brand new Seek Thermal for teardown with latest software on CD/DVD ?  >:D
OK-software not so important, one can write his own, but Seek experimental hardware dongle from Santa Claus to European EEVblog fans banned so far from official relase could be a very nice surprise  and clear evidence that really Seek Thermal Team is there on EEVblog ::)

I could for example test my Linux version of Seek Thermal app on real hardware, not only on USB sniffied 8bit channel RGBA PNG's  :D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: amyk on October 30, 2014, 04:09:27 am
Dark Pixels.  No great mystery here.  Every 15th pixel is intentionally blanked to avoid a potential patent infringement.
I'm really curious to know what patent claim this works around - Flir (I presume it's them!) have a lot of patents to comb through though....
Seconded; if anything I'd think that specific pattern of black pixels was a patented technique for something like calibration as suggested earlier, and a sensor with all functional pixels would be too obvious to patent. But then again, I'm not so surprised, given the absurdity of some of the patents out there.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 30, 2014, 08:32:54 am
Dark Pixels.  No great mystery here.  Every 15th pixel is intentionally blanked to avoid a potential patent infringement.
I'm really curious to know what patent claim this works around - Flir (I presume it's them!) have a lot of patents to comb through though....
Seconded; if anything I'd think that specific pattern of black pixels was a patented technique for something like calibration as suggested earlier, and a sensor with all functional pixels would be too obvious to patent. But then again, I'm not so surprised, given the absurdity of some of the patents out there.
Could be something really silly like "a contiguous array of 15 or more pixels"...
A few years ago I worked on a project where a feature had to be activated by a button press because there was a patent on a similar feature that was enabled all the time....
 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on October 30, 2014, 08:50:38 am
Hello, we are not alone in this thread  ;)

Dark Pixels.
...
With the effective blur length of a 12 micron pixel resolving 8-13 micron Radiation, loss of single isolated pixels does not (in itself) degrade image quality. 
There is close to 7% such useless black pixels, so it might affect image quality depending on application  :-DMM

BTW: Maybe, It could be nice to send each EEVblog member in this thread who made some effort and wrote more than 3 posts there, brand new Seek Thermal for teardown with latest software on CD/DVD ?  >:D
OK-software not so important, one can write his own, but Seek experimental hardware dongle from Santa Claus to European EEVblog fans banned so far from official relase could be a very nice surprise  and clear evidence that really Seek Thermal Team is there on EEVblog ::)

I could for example test my Linux version of Seek Thermal app on real hardware, not only on USB sniffied 8bit channel RGBA PNG's  :D

OOOH OOH OOOH yes please
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 30, 2014, 10:39:12 am
I never thought about it but yes the black pixel doesn't actually affect the image quality. The 12 micron pitch is pushing the limits of the detection wavelegth. Anything resolving on any given pixel could very well be the same as any given neighbor. Very clever Seek. It seems the solution is to find the black pixel, find its 8 pixel neighbors, and average their value, fill in pixel with that value. It would be nearly likely to be that value in real life. No need to blur the entire image. Dead pixels in theory should be eliminated in a similar fashion. Then run a sharpening algorithm on the output to enhance edge detection.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Hyperion on October 30, 2014, 11:22:03 am
Been lurking for a while... had my seek thermal for a while. Avid viewer of Mike & Dave's channels for years now.

My unit has about 2 to 3 degrees thermal gradient (measured against a foam blank) so it's not as extreme as the one in Mikes video. I can't justify modifying it for such a small difference, especially with the risk of damaging parts under the lens housing. At most it causes minor colour variation in the display output, for example, in this image (top left corner):

A larger concern that I have is what seems like a USB access issue on the Galaxy S4. There seems to be some issue when the app requests permission from the user to use the USB slot. It often ends up with garbled noisy display giving extremely high temperatures (thousands of deg C) and the shutter goes insane. The issue is resolved by unplugging the camera and attaching it again, and the problem comes and goes seemingly randomly. By luck this happened when I first connected the camera, and I thought I had a dud.

Overall I am very impressed with the unit at its $199 value. Although I had to get it shipped by a third party to Australia, so it was really closer to $290 USD in the very end. And getting the app to work outside the USA was a bit of a pain until I found some seemingly-legit apk downloading sites. If the product can be made available here for the normal price+exchange rate, I'd get a second one to play with 3rd party lens options.

The inherent issue with this forum is that it brings together a lot of experts and "tech tweakers" who will not be happy until they have a FLIR E8 equivalent device for $200 or a camera that outputs something like this (NSFW?) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS46C2z5lVE. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS46C2z5lVE.) If I were to look for a "commercial quality" infrared pyrometer from a retailer here, it will be $150-250 and it will measure one spot, that is the extent of its functionality. The price point for these Seek Thermal devices has to be met and so the product will never be perfect. I still think it is an amazing product for the casual user, tradesman and tinkerer alike.

I've been playing around with some astronomy CCD / image processing programs to see what can be done with the noise. No amazing breakthroughs so far other than making smoother / poorly defined images.

Obligatory portrait pic:

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 30, 2014, 12:03:27 pm
In reference to the gradient issue, I propose a software solution...

I'm guessing the software side at Seek could implement a gradient calibration event, where the user can, at will, select to calibrate out the gradient. The software could prompt the user to hold a sheet of anything flat up to lens, press on screen button to confirm its there and store a 5 frame average. On each FFC, combine the outside and inside calibration together before subtraction from the scene.

Of course it seems some users report the gradient in different areas, and in different intensities. Also it seems to be present at start-up or it gets worse after a few minutes. Calling this when the user chooses to would allow someone to calibrate it out when they feel the need (for scientific reasons.) It's probably not something necessary for the average user, but for the more inclined it would be a nice feature to have. It's certainly a great way to add value without modifying the camera.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on October 30, 2014, 12:20:49 pm
It is probably more difficult to compensate. From mike's video it seems to be dependend on the temperature: If the measured temperature is at the same temperature as the lens assembly, there is almost no gradient, but looking at a much warmer or colder object, the gradient gets more pronounced.

@Hyperion
Considering the temperature span of about 80°C the gradient looks much worse than 2-3°C in your image, more like 10-20°C.


Could someone take some pictures of a uniform object with min max display at very low and high and room tempertures to see if the gradient increases with temperature difference from the lens assemby temperature?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Yushir0 on October 30, 2014, 12:36:38 pm
Seek has indicated that they may have a software solution to the gradient problem and will be pushing a software update sometime in the near future.

link here: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=761401457265761&id=628554970550411&refid=17 (https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=761401457265761&id=628554970550411&refid=17)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on October 30, 2014, 01:03:58 pm
It's great that Seek is participating in this forum and plan to release a fix!

One data point here.   I tried to characterize the gradient, at least in my camera, and have determined almost certainly it's thermal oriented.  I used the Hi/Low to measure the drift over time on an even surface.   At the start, it is 80F and perfectly even, with both crosses in the center of the image.   Over time, the crosses migrate and deltas increase.

1F - 15s
2F - 35s
4F - 45s
6F - 60s
7F - 120s

Interestingly, generally the "blob" area goes down in temp relative to the starting point (hi stays 81F or so, the low drops to 73 or 74).   This tells me something is heating up when the shutter is closed, causing the image calibration to lower that area's estimated temperature.

If I use B&W color schemes and center point temp for relative measurement, it's usable.   But the threshold, color palettes and hi/low are about completely unusable, looking like a big mess.

So it looks like there may be a few different cases out there.  Some are saying they see the gradient right away.   I'm definitely not.   The above table is quite repeatable.   Not sure how a SW solution would account for a time based function like that, although if I could choose a "gradient correction" calibration time like after 2 minutes I'd be OK to let it warm up to get the gradient corrected.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 30, 2014, 01:19:51 pm
It is probably more difficult to compensate. From mike's video it seems to be dependend on the temperature: If the measured temperature is at the same temperature as the lens assembly, there is almost no gradient, but looking at a much warmer or colder object, the gradient gets more pronounced.

@Hyperion
Considering the temperature span of about 100°C the gradient looks much worse than 2-3°C in your image, more like 10-20°C.

I had written a lot useless garbage that basically summed up what you just said. In other words, agreed. The gradient is relative to the temperature range that the palette is applied to. If the scene only changes 10-20 degrees, the palette compresses to match the span, a 3 degree inaccuracy on one side will appear to be well over 30 shades of a color change.

A scene with flat temperature across it (floor, wall, etc) will look horrible visually if the correction doesn't compensate for even a few degrees of error anywhere


.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 30, 2014, 01:57:02 pm
Just in case anyone reading this thread gets the impression that the forum members have been 'bashing' the SEEK camera or company, such could not be further from the truth. This is a new and exciting product that offers much to the user community, and we all want it to be as good as it can be. Sometimes it is necessary to expose issues and deficiencies in a design in order to correct them and make the final product better. That is exactly what is happening in this thread. It is at teh heart of User Acceptance Testing (UAT) and a valid testing and development  process.

As has been stated, it would be a challenge to create the equivalent to a multi thousand $ thermal camera using a $199 piece of embryonic technology. I am not aware of anyone trying to turn the SEEK into a FLIR E8 in terms of performance. Such would be an unreasonable ambition until the 12uM microbolometer technology and associated optics have gone through more iterations. Given time and the continued integration of technology, as shown by the FLIR LEPTON, it may be possible.

I fully support SEEK in their ambition to make thermal imaging technology available to the masses and would not wish to harm them in any way. It is important however that SEEK mainatin their communications with their customer base and potential customers to ensure market coinfidence in the company. Even a holding response to some question is adequate in many cases as people then do not feel ignored.

I am still very much looking forward to receiving my SEEK thermal camera module. I took delivery of a $30,000 Bosch MIC 412 'Metal Mickey' dual tech 320x240 thermal CCTV camera yesterday and yet I am still engaging in this thread on the relatively inexpensive SEEK unit ! I am excited about both purchases for different reasons, and they will serve me in very different ways. I do think the SEEK camera has a very professional appearance and the quality of materials used is also excellent. They could so easily have used a cheap plastic case and lens tube.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: datsthat on October 30, 2014, 03:59:00 pm
My first post.  I own a seek thermal camera.  I wonder if Seek released prior to fully UAT?  If so, I wonder why they didn't catch the gradient issue or maybe they didn't think it was a concern.  I am very happy with my seek, but would be even happier once the gradient issue is resolved.  The reason why it is important to me is because my main purpose for this device is to simply scan my immedieate area for life (humans and/or animals) while I go on night hikes using NOD.  I hike in an area with wildlife and it freaks me out when I hear something rattling the leaves.  I plan on using the mode where you can specify a temp and the app will show any temp either above or below your desired temp.....I want to enter a low enough temp that should pick up life such as 60 degrees (outside temp 40-50degrees), but with the gradient issue, I now have to select 68 degrees to prevent the gradient.  I hope what I said made sense.

I feel that Seek needs to address the angry customers.  I used to be angry until I got mine which was late, but better late than never.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 30, 2014, 04:35:58 pm
I get the general impression that they launched a little before they should have/ would have liked to, but had to get something out to steal market from the Flir One
It still seems units are shipping slowly, which could indicate that some production issues are still being worked out. Someone on the FB page estimated around 300 units per day based on a few sample points of order number & date, though there seem to be a number of reports of out-of-sequence shipping.
No sign of Iphone units shipping yet-my guess is they're getting the app & firmware improved on Android, as getting an update approved in the Apple store is harder so they'd like to only do it once.   
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 30, 2014, 04:44:49 pm
The reason why it is important to me is because my main purpose for this device is to simply scan my immedieate area for life (humans and/or animals) while I go on night hikes using NOD.  I hike in an area with wildlife and it freaks me out when I hear something rattling the leaves.

The gradient issue is really only a problem for people using the camera for commercial applications like heat leak or moisture inspections, electronics thermal characteristics, or anything that needs a very flat field. Scanning for signs of life (hunters, security, front lines combat) isn't so much affected by a gradient. Which this sensor, even if somewhat handicapped, does effortlessly. If all you are after is detection of a somewhat warmer object from its surroundings, the minimal gradient shouldn't cause any problems. Its really more of annoyance that debilitating. I think this whole design is full of win, and it seems more than adequate...but I think there's plenty of juice left in the lemons.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 30, 2014, 05:32:48 pm
To me the gradient issue is still up in the air, might be fixed by software, the boiling water above could be aggravated by steam since it doesn't match the pattern that we have seen.

As for early release, maybe, I'm happy with mine and for the $200 it costs it serves my needs to winterize my house.

It still need better software to cover their claims of finding studs behind walls but that's just adding features to the app. Also they do claim in their advertising about finding water damage, so it's not like we are asking for things not promised. Still I think is more of a software issue at the moment than a real hardware one.

As for the reason why they need the unused pixels, I wouldn't expect for them to tell us because it can be used against them if some competitor finds some hole in their claims. Open is one thing but wide open might hurt them, specially taking into account the history behind their company, they are not new to litigation hurting their bottom line.

So let them focus on what they need to do and ramp up production which that might be a harder thing to deal with because sometimes logistics get in the way of a successful product.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: datsthat on October 30, 2014, 05:45:37 pm
The reason why it is important to me is because my main purpose for this device is to simply scan my immedieate area for life (humans and/or animals) while I go on night hikes using NOD.  I hike in an area with wildlife and it freaks me out when I hear something rattling the leaves.

The gradient issue is really only a problem for people using the camera for commercial applications like heat leak or moisture inspections, electronics thermal characteristics, or anything that needs a very flat field. Scanning for signs of life (hunters, security, front lines combat) isn't so much affected by a gradient. Which this sensor, even if somewhat handicapped, does effortlessly. If all you are after is detection of a somewhat warmer object from its surroundings, the minimal gradient shouldn't cause any problems. Its really more of annoyance that debilitating. I think this whole design is full of win, and it seems more than adequate...but I think there's plenty of juice left in the lemons.

The reason why the gradient is an issue for me is because I am not able to set the temp low enough to ensure Seek doen't miss it.  Even though animal's temp is a lot higher than air temp, seek isn't able to distinguish the difference in temp b/c the animals skin will be cooler due to the cold air.  I'll test my theory by going to the woods and search for my son.

My son and wife about 40yds away
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x424/Datsthat/Seek%20Thermal/IMG_20141026_190718_zpsvcpar3mo.jpg)

3 window washers about 300-400 yds away
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x424/Datsthat/Seek%20Thermal/img_thermal1279904450_zpshavklhg_edit_1414176346654_zps6sg1urzi.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x424/Datsthat/Seek%20Thermal/img_visible1375219459_zpsrrkr7tre.jpg)

Small spot above roof is an aircraft about 400-500yds away
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x424/Datsthat/Seek%20Thermal/img_thermal-1673290066_zpstxgbqalb.jpg)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 30, 2014, 06:13:02 pm
The inherent issue with this forum is that it brings together a lot of experts and "tech tweakers" who will not be happy until they have a FLIR E8 equivalent device for $200 or a camera that outputs something like this (NSFW?)
I'm happy with this MLX90614   Digital, plug & play, infrared thermometer in a TO-can (http://www.melexis.com/Infrared-Thermometer-Sensors/Infrared-Thermometer-Sensors/MLX90614-615.aspx)
while according its datasheet  MLX90614 Datasheet (PDF) (http://www.melexis.com/Assets/IR-sensor-thermometer-MLX90614-Datasheet-5152.aspx) and product info it fit my main requirements:
Quote
"Factory calibrated in wide temperature range: -40 to 125 °C for sensor temperature and -70 to 380 °C for object temperature."
while it costs <$10 and by adding a few low cost components I can detect easy and quickly and what is the most important without any temperature gradients energy losses in house as well as find hot places on ground and do many other things which are not possible to do with device like Seek Thermal, when it has such huge hardware issue like this weird gradient, which makes this thermal camera simply  NOT RELIABLE  :o

BTW: The only problem with forums is that they are spammed very often by marketing departments of many companies which are looking for good images of their fake products  :palm:
So, If got this thing for free, no complains of course, but when I got it for $200, than of course one email to support and If not resolved than simply asking for my money and sending it back as quickly as possible, because of toys shoud cost not more than $100  :-DD
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 30, 2014, 06:19:17 pm
People should stop making things up.

It's a perfectly fine instrument, it just needs some app love to allow us to adjust what range we are interested in and maybe some minor tweak to the flat field.

This are from my wife's Galaxy S4 with the native Seek code and a hot stove.
It did help me identify that the heat is escaping on the backplane of the stove and not well isolated.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115554;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115556;image)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on October 30, 2014, 06:26:21 pm
A few other notes on the gradient issue:

If I unplug the camera, exit the app and then replug it right away, it generally picks up where it left off gradient-wise, eliminating accumulation of errors as a cause of the gradient.

For temperature sensitivity of the gradient,  I went around and captured the delta temperature (on the hi/lo function) with various items around the house and outside.  I found, for very cold items, the gradient was about 13F at max.  For very hot items, it was about 7F or so.   Here are my examples...very non-exacting , but just trying to get a general trend.  It was interesting the overcast sky was so much colder than ambient (about 53F)...wonder if that's accurate measurement of the vapor in the clouds.     I know for cloudless nights, the bottom really drops out of the indicated sky temperature.  Anyway:

Item              Seek L    Seek H   delta
Hot Water       120       127     7
notepad        72        79       7
deck            52       63       11
Milk             39       49       10
overcast sky   30       43       13
IceCream     19       32       13

BTW, the low temperature tended to be the most accurate.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 30, 2014, 06:56:10 pm
The temperature accuracy should improve once they nail the profile of the sensor readings. Thermocouples don't change resistance linear to temperature change, and the software engineers probably know that. It just takes time to get it dialed in.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 30, 2014, 07:25:39 pm
Scanning for signs of life (hunters, security, front lines combat) isn't so much affected by a gradient.
Not reliable thermal camera is more dangerous than no such thing at all-for example now some drivers with this toy can feel king of the roads and drive very fast in the dark, because of they... have night vision, but... due to many reasons this what they are able to see in different conditions will not be the same so can easy to miss... for example humans on the bike... etc....
It can be very dangerous thing when used out of its limits which are unknown and any issues with its hardware only makes this thing less predictable.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: kiwiradical on October 30, 2014, 07:56:00 pm
A few kudos where kudos is due! Seek have done a great job in making a perfectly usable thermal camera for $199! That's a truly ground breaking achievement. As well as that their packaging is great, including a robust small carrying case is brilliant, and the unit itself seems robust and nicely executed.

So there are a few issues that will no doubt improve overtime with firmware and software updates. we've already seen a firmware update, and more kudos, nice move making it an automatic process as part of the app update, The thermal gradient issue should improve with better software flat fielding.

However a few wishes....

1/ Make the app available internationally please!!!!! There are enough units already in the non US market already to make ita sensible move. Better these units have access to the most recent app version rather than sideloading dodgy apks. I'm in New Zealand  and have two units already, but cant access the app on Google Play here.

2/ Add a temperature calibration function. The two units I have differ by 4-5 degrees in any temperature measurement. It should be simple to add a user selectable temperature correction.

3/A user selectable 'span' or equivalent to manual exposure/gain would be great. As a thermal imager for amateur search and rescue or animal 'life' detection'outdoors, the inclusion of a any part of a clear sky at night (with its v low temperature) causes the span to change dramatically. Without any sky in the image the Seek works well for this, but image say a tree, with gaps with sky showing between branches, and the span automatically changes so dramatically it becomes near useless to detect anything a few degrees above ambient.

With those simple fixes the Seek would become a lot more useful.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: kiwiradical on October 30, 2014, 08:20:59 pm
An update, I've just discovered that if I use the direct url for the Thermal App I can install it from New Zealand, even though a search on Google Play won't show it.

Direct url :https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal&hl=en&rdid=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal&hl=en&rdid=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on October 31, 2014, 06:27:11 am
A few other notes on the gradient issue:

Item              Seek L    Seek H   delta
Hot Water       120       127     7
notepad        72        79       7
deck            52       63       11
Milk             39       49       10
overcast sky   30       43       13
IceCream     19       32       13

BTW, the low temperature tended to be the most accurate.
Tanks for measuring. That is interesting.
It seems like heat is internally injected into the sensor. Therefore the temperature only increases and never decreases and low temperatures are most effected.
It seems like the sensor either sees a part of the lens assembly or some other heat source is reflected back onto the sensor.

I wonder how they plan to compensate that in software.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 31, 2014, 06:31:50 am
I forgot to ask a co-worker for his Uni-T IR Thermometer to do some calibrations this weekend. If I ask tomorrow I won't get to borrow it until Monday :(

I wanted to use it to actually compare temperatures.

Edit: I guess I will have to use my DMMs
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Hyperion on October 31, 2014, 08:39:50 am
3/A user selectable 'span' or equivalent to manual exposure/gain would be great. As a thermal imager for amateur search and rescue or animal 'life' detection'outdoors, the inclusion of a any part of a clear sky at night (with its v low temperature) causes the span to change dramatically. Without any sky in the image the Seek works well for this, but image say a tree, with gaps with sky showing between branches, and the span automatically changes so dramatically it becomes near useless to detect anything a few degrees above ambient.

In the mean time you could use the mode where you set the temperature limits and it only colours those within the limits.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 31, 2014, 08:43:43 am
It seems like heat is internally injected into the sensor.
...
I wonder how they plan to compensate that in software.
Answer is simply type in Google search "Seek Thermal gradient issue" and what we get?
Yep,  first two hits links to @Mike teardown ONLY and this EEVblog thread .
Their public relations department so far so quite good   :blah:
However, I'm surprised that those links are displayed in top of the search rankings while changes in Google search engine might simply put forums threads far away in search results when they implement this:
Google says latest search changes will 'visibly affect' piracy site rankings (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/20/google-search-changes-piracy-rankings)
Quote
"Google is preparing a new tweak to its search engine to ensure that some of the most ‘notorious’ piracy sites are less likely to appear when people search for music, films and other copyrighted content."

It is Christmas time, so they can sell it now without any problems while gadget world doesn't care about technical issues it needs nice looking images to spread them on social media  :-DD
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 31, 2014, 09:16:39 am
Statement on their FB page
Quote
Dear Seek Customers:

We apologize again for the delay in shipping cameras. We have had several unanticipated issues that prevented our production from ramping up as quickly as originally planned. We’ve been working closely with our manufacturing partner to address these issues in order to fulfill our backorders as soon as possible.

This is the first time that thermal cameras have been produced on a mass production line, and assembling, aligning, and calibrating the high tech lenses and sensors requires multiple unique steps that have taken longer than we anticipated to ramp up to full capacity. Our company and our manufacturer are both dedicated to continue to increase production as quickly as possible, and we will also be adding a third shift next week. With these measures, and given our current production trends, we hope to catch up with all of the backorders within the next few weeks.

There is an additional issue that is currently preventing us from shipping any further iOS cameras from our existing inventory. Prior to accepting any orders, our cameras received hardware approval from Apple. However, we have recently received unanticipated additional requests from Apple, which we are actively working on with them. We hope to resolve these issues quickly so we can resume shipping the iOS cameras we are now manufacturing and building inventory on.

Our number one priority is getting cameras out to our customers as quickly as possible over the next few weeks.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 31, 2014, 09:57:09 am
Why am I not surprised that Apple are being difficult over their approval. They tend to be a challenging company with which to deal. Great products but a little too controlling for my liking.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: kiwiradical on October 31, 2014, 10:18:47 am

[/quote]

In the mean time you could use the mode where you set the temperature limits and it only colours those within the limits.
[/quote]

You can only select one of above, below or equal to. And this does not solve the span issue.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 31, 2014, 10:21:31 am
It's really depressing. It must be frustrating when the only holdup in your mechandise chain isn't the manufacturing, programming or distribution...no its the unnecessary step where you wait for the platform to agree it conforms with their design image and the app doesn't do any actions found on the long list of no no's.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 31, 2014, 10:52:29 am
Statement on their FB page
Quote
...
Prior to accepting any orders, our cameras received hardware approval from Apple. However, we have recently received unanticipated additional requests from Apple, which we are actively working on with them.
...
Maybe I woke up in some kind of another weird parallel universe today somewhere in the future, where nobody can attach to device he payed piece of hardware made by someone else who knows how to do it than device manufacturer business partners?
Why Seek Thermal can not simply sell this dongle to iOS users as well as other target platforms with software on... yes old good times CD and provide this software for download on HIS OWN web pages?  :wtf:
It looks like we a're  back in the past at the origins of internet now, but even that time on news groups one could get what he wants even had to wait some time to download it, but probably much less than for any approvals  :palm:

Isn't customers who payed for these crappy phones should decide if they want to buy this toy or return it back if it is not this what they want since they bought it via internet so had no chance to play with it in normal shop...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Kevman on October 31, 2014, 11:28:39 am
Why Seek Thermal can not simply sell this dongle to iOS users as well as other target platforms with software on... yes old good times CD and provide this software for download on HIS OWN web pages?  :wtf:
It looks like we a're  back in the past at the origins of internet now, but even that time on news groups one could get what he wants even had to wait some time to download it, but probably much less than for any approvals  :palm:

Isn't customers who payed for these crappy phones should decide if they want to buy this toy or return it back if it is not this what they want since they bought it via internet so had no chance to play with it in normal shop...

Apple is probably the most proprietary-centric consumer product manufacturer out there. Why this would be surprising to anyone is beyond me.

Anyone who wants to connect anything besides headphones to the iPhone has to get Apple approval, because you need a license from them to use the Lightning connector.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 31, 2014, 12:33:54 pm
Don't give them any ideas, next they will mute the phone audio if unapproved headphones aren't plugged in. Or they could refuse a connection to a Bluetooth audio device if it isn't in the MAC address whitelist.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: waldo on October 31, 2014, 03:02:43 pm
Apple currently refuses connections to Bluetooth devices that lack their authentication chip.  But when Bluetooth low energy came out, Apple decided not to restrict access to BLE devices, so there may be hope for them yet.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: IanB on October 31, 2014, 04:37:29 pm
Apple currently refuses connections to Bluetooth devices that lack their authentication chip.

What does this mean? I have been able to pair a generic Bluetooth keyboard with my iDevices and it works fine.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on October 31, 2014, 05:03:38 pm
I think the restriction is that iOS requires Bluetooth LE (low energy)
Also it has had problems on one of the recent updates, but I don't think they will change the compatibility.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 31, 2014, 05:04:45 pm
Apple currently refuses connections to Bluetooth devices that lack their authentication chip.

What does this mean? I have been able to pair a generic Bluetooth keyboard with my iDevices and it works fine.
I believe keyboards are about the only generic, non Apple-taxed thing they will pair with.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: iRad on October 31, 2014, 05:12:07 pm
Apple currently refuses connections to Bluetooth devices that lack their authentication chip.

What does that have to do with the Seek Thermal camera for iOS? It is not a Blue Tooth device. AND, it evidently has the authentication chip.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: NsyncSys on October 31, 2014, 07:06:39 pm
Hey folks.  I got my camera a couple of weeks ago - I was order # 1100 or so.
I was looking for answers to some of the very issues you folks are discussing - glad I found you!
My major complaints that I hope Seek addresses are mostly software, but here they are:

1 - Thermal gradient issue
2 - inability to turn off auto-scaling in the thermal mapping - moving the camera can result in a wild shifting of colors.
3 - Poor display definition - with a built in visible light camera it would be easy to boost the apparent definition.  For example perform edge detection on the visible light and apply as an alpha channel to the IR display.
4 - Poor display contrast - this is seriously easy stuff to bump the contrast so details can be distinguished.
5 - Software does not remember user settings - it asks every single time to associate the camera with the software.
6 - Inability to use for advertised abilities such as stud finding.  Mine will not even pick up the thermal gradients where I *know* the wires run warm, nor the embedded hot water pipes in the foundation that I can feel with bare feet.  The demo pic of footprints in the carpet or bare floor are myth as far as I can tell.  I can see where the cat has been snoozing on the couch.  I'm quite sure addressing issues 2-5 would help here.

PS: Thanks for the software - I'll be rigging a cable this weekend to play.
Jon
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 31, 2014, 07:12:17 pm

3 - Poor display definition - with a built in visible light camera it would be easy to boost the apparent definition.  For example perform edge detection on the visible light
and apply as an alpha channel to the IR display.
Flir have a patent on that. there is also the issue of different positions and fields of view of cams on different phones. maybe someone will write an app for it though
Quote
4 - Poor display contrast - this is seriously easy stuff to bump the contrast so details can be distinguished.
I suspect this is a deliberate tactic to hide noise.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on October 31, 2014, 08:24:58 pm
Apple is probably the most proprietary-centric consumer product manufacturer out there.
Anyway, may be better if Seek Thermal will leave them alone with their greatness if they do not want to be involved in similar lawsuits and release PC version with drivers for Linux, Window$, etc  for price <$100 :-DD
Apple and GTAT: What went wrong - update (http://fortune.com/2014/10/29/apple-and-gtat-what-went-wrong/)
Quote
"GTAT is prohibited from modifying any equipment, specifications, manufacturing process or materials without Apple’s prior consent. Apple can modify any of these terms at any time and GTAT must immediately implement Apple’s modifications."
Apple? No thanks  :rant:
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 31, 2014, 08:43:23 pm
order # 30xx received!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: datsthat on October 31, 2014, 08:49:52 pm
I found this vid comparing Seek with Therm-app.  sorry if this is a not so smart question to ask as I don't have much thermal background (or anything else :palm:)  With future software revisions, does anybody think its posbile for seek to look similar to therm app? 

http://youtu.be/5FvVJE-qLhw (http://youtu.be/5FvVJE-qLhw)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on October 31, 2014, 08:53:27 pm
Not a chance... Seek sensor is so small it can't resolve finer details, even though its resolution is much great than the FLIR one.
Therm-app has a much bigger sensor, hence the expense. Opgal have no doubt ported their existing proven processing code isntead of having to write new code from the ground up like Seek.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 31, 2014, 09:05:57 pm
I found this vid comparing Seek with Therm-app.  sorry if this is a not so smart question to ask as I don't have much thermal background (or anything else :palm:)  With future software revisions, does anybody think its posbile for seek to look similar to therm app? 

http://youtu.be/5FvVJE-qLhw (http://youtu.be/5FvVJE-qLhw)
Ther therm-app lens alone probably costs more than the Seek
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on October 31, 2014, 09:23:36 pm
My camera finally arrived today. I definitely am plagued by the gradient issue as everyone else is. I noticed something interesting though, it seems to be thermally related. Cold out of the box it had no gradient. As it warmed up, a gradient began to show itself, so I placed the imager in the freezer. Gradient went down, even the noise level decreased as expected.

How about this, is it possible the gradient we see is coming from side radiation of the lens housing? Maybe it is picking it up off the PCB? I also wanted to point out the gradient appears from the side where the housing is thinnest...strange thermal characteristic?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: datsthat on October 31, 2014, 09:58:21 pm
gradient on mine is always hotter bottom right hand
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 31, 2014, 10:09:57 pm
An update, I've just discovered that if I use the direct url for the Thermal App I can install it from New Zealand, even though a search on Google Play won't show it.

Direct url :https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal&hl=en&rdid=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal&hl=en&rdid=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal)

Didn't work for me - after the "please login to download" prompt I get "Page not found"
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: waldo on October 31, 2014, 10:23:11 pm
Didn't work for me - after the "please login to download" prompt I get "Page not found"
Does APK Downloader help in those situations?
http://apps.evozi.com/apk-downloader/ (http://apps.evozi.com/apk-downloader/)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on October 31, 2014, 11:35:57 pm
@Mike, URL works OK from my Moto G but no camera found for download. Not sure if you need the Seek plugged in to install ?  My Seek has just arrived at its USA destinatiom so hopefully not long until I can test it. 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 01, 2014, 02:57:18 am
Here's a thermie of my cat. Really shows the detail the camera can achieve.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Hyperion on November 01, 2014, 04:59:11 am
I used the site discussed below to get the apk and then used ApkInstall app to install it (not apkInstall which is a different one) or you can side-install with the other methods.

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2636539 (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2636539)

OF course there is some question about the security of using a site that downloads an apk for you: in theory they could add something malicious to it, but I haven't found any cases of this by googling this specific site, and my downloaded apk seems to be fine. Also it seemed that at first the download would not work but eventually it does if you retry enough: either site problems or you need to wait for the site to cache it on their end before it will process the link correctly.

(Trying to make a "fake" USA based account or modifying your preferences / clearing caches to try and trick Play Store into working in your country is a WASTE OF TIME and the new Google Play Store versions have defeated all the old "tricks" you will read about in blogs/forums and see in youtube videos).
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Hyperion on November 01, 2014, 05:01:59 am
@Mike, URL works OK from my Moto G but no camera found for download. Not sure if you need the Seek plugged in to install ?  My Seek has just arrived at its USA destinatiom so hopefully not long until I can test it.

The box packaging says to install the app before connecting the camera. (The camera app will auto-launch on most phones when it's plugged in). If the Play Store says it's not available it's because you are outside USA/Canada and/or your device is not compatible with the software.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Marco on November 01, 2014, 06:11:21 am
Flir have a patent on that.

There's a patent on round corners (and weels for that matter). If you worry about patents this incredibly weak then you can forget about producing anything ever. A moment of careful consideration will tell you that the military significance of sensor fusion means this kind of very basic stuff is too well travelled for patents to be relevant (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=image+fusion+multispectral+%22edge+detection%22&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=&as_yhi=2000).
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 01, 2014, 09:51:04 am
@Mike, URL works OK from my Moto G but no camera found for download. Not sure if you need the Seek plugged in to install ?  My Seek has just arrived at its USA destinatiom so hopefully not long until I can test it.
No - the app can be installed, and run in demo mode without the camera, at least when installing from a .apk file

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: amyk on November 01, 2014, 11:06:32 am
Here's a thermie of my cat. Really shows the detail the camera can achieve.
That doesn't look quite right unless it's an inverted palette... the eyes should be much hotter:

http://traveldave.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/thermalcat2_sm.jpg (http://traveldave.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/thermalcat2_sm.jpg)
https://athermallife.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/cat.jpg (https://athermallife.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/cat.jpg)
http://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2014/01/07/7d42182c-8533-11e3-bc97-14feb5ca9861/208f1d19dc978f193aaa148996f169d7/flirone.jpg (http://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2014/01/07/7d42182c-8533-11e3-bc97-14feb5ca9861/208f1d19dc978f193aaa148996f169d7/flirone.jpg)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Hyperion on November 01, 2014, 11:20:11 am
Here's a thermie of my cat. Really shows the detail the camera can achieve.
That doesn't look quite right unless it's an inverted palette... the eyes should be much hotter:

http://traveldave.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/thermalcat2_sm.jpg (http://traveldave.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/thermalcat2_sm.jpg)
https://athermallife.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/cat.jpg (https://athermallife.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/cat.jpg)
http://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2014/01/07/7d42182c-8533-11e3-bc97-14feb5ca9861/208f1d19dc978f193aaa148996f169d7/flirone.jpg (http://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2014/01/07/7d42182c-8533-11e3-bc97-14feb5ca9861/208f1d19dc978f193aaa148996f169d7/flirone.jpg)

That is the "Black" pallet. Which is the inverse of "White".

In "black" hottest objects are darkest, so the cat looks as expected. I still think "Tyrian" is my favorite.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: jaybeez on November 01, 2014, 12:36:49 pm
Hi Everybody,
I've been following the discussion here for several weeks. All of you are great. I heard about the Seek on the night vision forum I frequent, but discussion and interest there seems to have fizzled out.

efahrenholz,
those cat photos look excellent. did you wait until just after a shutter event to take the snap shot? there is very little noise in your photo, compared to others I have seen. maybe an option to force a shutter event when taking a snapshot would be a good improvement to the app?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 01, 2014, 01:18:40 pm
@jaybeez,

Actually I didn't wait for a flat field. The reason the photo looks so noise free is because the palette is stretched past the max and min temperature. Basically its a low contrast photo. I wouldn't mind being able to manually set the high and low point for the palette, so I can see more of my surroundings that are close to the same temperature, rather than a gray image with faint changes. I realize the noise level on the sensor is pretty bad, but still, I'd rather have the options to have manual control over the camera parameters. I don't expect them to give us the option to change the averaging (it's a byproduct of limiting the camera to 9hz), but Seek needs to give us manual flat field control (shuttered and shutterless) and manual control of the palette stretch.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 01, 2014, 04:39:35 pm
I found this vid comparing Seek with Therm-app.  sorry if this is a not so smart question to ask as I don't have much thermal background (or anything else :palm:)  With future software revisions, does anybody think its posbile for seek to look similar to therm app? 

http://youtu.be/5FvVJE-qLhw (http://youtu.be/5FvVJE-qLhw)

We could certainly get good images like that, albeit not quite as sharp. The problem is the process seek uses to digest the data off the sensor. They appear to be running a blur filter over the image. That ruins edges, reducing the apparent resolution. Rather than attacking the whole image, leave the data that's there and fill in the null pixels with the average of their 8 pixel neighbors. Since its already getting a five frame average, most problematic noise should be averaged out. Dead pixels are well, dead pixels. They look worse on low resolution imagers, so that's a compromise. Then finish the image with a good sharpen filter to improve edges further.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Galaxyrise on November 01, 2014, 05:48:01 pm
Here's a thermie of my cat. Really shows the detail the camera can achieve.
That doesn't look quite right unless it's an inverted palette... the eyes should be much hotter:

That is the "Black" pallet. Which is the inverse of "White".

In "black" hottest objects are darkest, so the cat looks as expected. I still think "Tyrian" is my favorite.
I agree with Amyk.  I do not expect the nose and the eyes to be the same value in a thermal image! 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 01, 2014, 06:03:36 pm
I kind of agree look at this reference image from the web:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115874;image)

And the ones posted using the same palette.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115876;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115878;image)

Eyes too cold and nose too hot. Maybe you took it after the cat was rubbing on your and had the eyes closed. But they look open in your picture

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 01, 2014, 06:22:45 pm
As a cat owner and having used my thermal cameras on them many times as a test subject, I can confirm that a cats eye area is always hot and the nose usually very cold by comparison. Other hot areas are their paw pads and their exhaust pipe (under their tail)  ;D

With a 320x240 thermal camera I can always see fur detail in the image as well. This can be a good resolution and sharpness test but you have to remember that the SEEK is fixed focus so images will not be as sharp as those with a manual focus capability.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on November 01, 2014, 06:36:45 pm
Yes the eyes are always one of the warmest areas.
(http://i.imgur.com/lYvzT9h.jpg)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 01, 2014, 07:36:57 pm
That's an interesting observation about Taz (my cat). I didnt consider that his nose was warmer than it was supposed to be. When I was watching him, I could see the cold air blowing out of his nose over his lips. Perhaps my taz is sick? I heard a sign of a sick cat is a warm dry nose. But I'm sure it's staying wet.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 01, 2014, 08:01:54 pm
I attach some pictures of Oliver that I took some time ago using one of my PM695's. They are nothing special as I have not tuned the span or anything. Oliver is sat on a hot water bottle in some of the pic's. My feet are also shown in one image as I often use them as a simple test source  ;D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 01, 2014, 08:18:40 pm
Just a few E4 (320x240) pics for comparison purposes. Plaster dabs on walls are clearly visible but note that a reduced span is needed to increase the contrast.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 01, 2014, 10:01:35 pm
In case readers have not realised the significance of having control over a thermal cameras span and centre temperature. You can suffer very low contrast images when large spans are used. Small spans such as 10C, 5C or 2C require the user to fine tune the centre temperature for the target of interest but it permits greater detail to be extracted when working with scenes that have small temperature differential in the targets, yet also contain higher temperature objects that can fool a TIC into using a wider span and lose thermal contrast.

Some cameras actually use the terms "Brightness" for the Centre Temp and "Contrast" for the Span. This is the effect seen in the image so I can understand such terms being used.

For my work I am often operating with less than 5C span but you need a decent low noise camera for such spans as the noise really starts to show at such settings.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on November 01, 2014, 10:03:30 pm
The cat does look a bit visible-spectrumy...

Also anyone owns both a TIC and a guinea pig? I'd like to see that...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 01, 2014, 10:12:02 pm
The cat does look a bit visible-spectrumy...

Also anyone owns both a TIC and a guinea pig? I'd like to see that...

Guinea pig:
http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/image_galleries/ir_zoo/guinea.html (http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/image_galleries/ir_zoo/guinea.html)

Others:
http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/image_galleries/ir_zoo/zoo.html (http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/image_galleries/ir_zoo/zoo.html)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 01, 2014, 10:17:58 pm
Cool site  :-+

Thanks for the url.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on November 01, 2014, 10:41:36 pm
OOOOEEEEEEEEE SO CUTE! :D

gotta loove guinea pigs
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 01, 2014, 11:13:03 pm
The cat does look a bit visible-spectrumy...
Cat simply could sleep, than many people reported even without thermal cameras that his nose will be warmer than usual and it doesn't have to mean that it is sick  ;)

Simply with this Seek Thermal toy without adjustable focus forget about thermal image quality  :palm:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115955)
To get decent sharp edges one needs manual focus like in this SKF TKTI 21 (160x120 pixels ONLY?)

Seek Thermal in USB dongle version is too small, but quality means more weight and volume, so do not expect too much from this toy, unless one will make some DIY version with own software.
Just looked at SKF TKTI 21 manual and of course one gets PC image analysis software on CD not via doggy app stores which try to limit downloads to part of internet  :-DD

Even in toys low power laser pointer should help to easy find what we are looking for, so Seek Thermal without laser... simply it looks like a toy for bigger boys  :phew:
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 01, 2014, 11:34:06 pm
The cat does look a bit visible-spectrumy...

Also anyone owns both a TIC and a guinea pig? I'd like to see that...

I assure you it was a real shot through the camera. And it wasn't post processed outside the seek app.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 01, 2014, 11:35:04 pm
@eneuro

Not sure I can agree about the focus statement.

Cameras that do not have manual or auto focus use a fixed focus lens that provides adequate focus over a large depth of field (due to lens design). The E4 has such a lens and copes well in many scenarios. Close up lenses are used to provide detailed images of PCB's etc. I will agree that the manual and auto focus TIC's that I have do provide pin sharp images at all distances within their spec BUT they do need me to keep adjusting the focus, unlike on the E4.

Also at 320x240 or 160x120, the resolution limits the sharpness of the image anyway. Its not exactly HD  ;D

IMHO it is way too early to call the SEEK a "toy".
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on November 01, 2014, 11:36:28 pm
The cat does look a bit visible-spectrumy...

Also anyone owns both a TIC and a guinea pig? I'd like to see that...

I assure you it was a real shot through the camera. And it wasn't post processed outside the seek app.

I don't think there's any reason to doubt you, that was a mere observation of mine..
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 02, 2014, 12:08:56 am
I prefer the look of a black hot palette, seems to bring out more details in warm objects. If I'm looking at cold stuff mostly, I'll switch to a white hot. The colored palettes have never really appealed to me.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on November 02, 2014, 12:33:23 am
I think the security/surveillance people use the blackhot palette. The whitehot feels just so much more natural to me...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: RAWebb on November 02, 2014, 01:44:46 am
Close up lenses are used to provide detailed images of PCB's etc.

I've put up a simple holder for the 20mm ZnSe lenses over at Thingiverse. It's just a friction fit which depends on the asymmetry of the camera face to hold it in place, but it seems to do the trick. Should do well enough to keep handy in the toolbag. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:525605 (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:525605)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 02, 2014, 01:48:18 am
Close up lenses are used to provide detailed images of PCB's etc.

I've put up a simple holder for the 20mm ZnSe lenses over at Thingiverse. It's just a friction fit which depends on the asymmetry of the camera face to hold it in place, but it seems to do the trick. Should do well enough to keep handy in the toolbag. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:525605 (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:525605)

Thanks! don't have a 3d printer but I know at least 3 at work that do :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 02, 2014, 02:19:43 am
I think the security/surveillance people use the blackhot palette. The whitehot feels just so much more natural to me...

Ok, I guess i'm starting to fall in love with the tyrian palette now. It looks pretty good.

God, i'd give anything to turn off that blasted automatic flatfield calibration and take a through lens one. They could have made a simple flip up cover on the outside of the body. Want to do a calibration? Flip it up and press a button on screen. Bam, calibrates the field against the lens and sensor. My images look much cleaner when i do the magnet trick. But its short lived.

Weird thing about flatfield calibration...if i do the magnet trick, obviously it takes whatever it sees and uses that to sub out each frame. But on the very next flat field where i let the shutter work, a ghost image of the last flat field (like hot objects) is still present, but less. l think Seeks software is averaging flat fields. A bug?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: jaybeez on November 02, 2014, 02:33:10 am
Close up lenses are used to provide detailed images of PCB's etc.

I've put up a simple holder for the 20mm ZnSe lenses over at Thingiverse. It's just a friction fit which depends on the asymmetry of the camera face to hold it in place, but it seems to do the trick. Should do well enough to keep handy in the toolbag. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:525605 (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:525605)

have any pictures you've taken with this setup?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 02, 2014, 02:34:48 am
There is one on the link with and without
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on November 02, 2014, 09:13:29 am
Weird thing about flatfield calibration...if i do the magnet trick, obviously it takes whatever it sees and uses that to sub out each frame. But on the very next flat field where i let the shutter work, a ghost image of the last flat field (like hot objects) is still present, but less. l think Seeks software is averaging flat fields. A bug?

Yea, I've noticed that in Mike's video too... They seem to be averaging just about everything they can to produce a less noisy image, but in this case that would be a wrong assumption...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 02, 2014, 09:35:21 am
Not sure I can agree about the focus statement.
Could you in spare time try to make thermal images with Flir which has this MSX available of hot gorund like those from http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/10/27/a-thermal-infrared-camera-attachment-for-smart-phone/ (http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/10/27/a-thermal-infrared-camera-attachment-for-smart-phone/)   shown by me in prev posts and its grayed visual there?
Grayed image there in attachment as well as attempt to add edges in pure way simply just by overlay so easy to improve, but in the case of ground it could be interesting to see what this "amazing" Flir's MSX will provide  in this case.
It could be great to make small fire on the ground similar to this and do those thermal shots after it burned to get at least one nice hot spot.
First image attached is Seek Thermal from link above with such simple overlayed visual edges-lets call it visual curves, to avoid any Flir's patents  >:D
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115976)
Without adding hi res visual context those low res Flir's thermal cameras as well as Seek Thermal probably would give out only thermal blobs of averaged temperatures not image  :-DD
External lens can help but Seek Thermal gradient issues make this thermal output not reliable.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 02, 2014, 12:53:48 pm
@eneuro,

I am not sure my wife would take kindly to me setting a fire in her manicured garden  ;D

Edit:

Post was too long and rambling - removed. Copy kept in case content wanted by anyone.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: jaybeez on November 02, 2014, 01:25:15 pm
I've read that these lenses work with the therm-app, as a cheaper alternative to opgal's offerings.
http://eom.umicore.com/en/infrared-optics/product-range/35-mm-f-1.1/ (http://eom.umicore.com/en/infrared-optics/product-range/35-mm-f-1.1/)
with 3D printing would it be worth looking into making new housings for the seek to incorporate a lens like this? Mike? your unit already had the lens housing removed. anyone know which lens gives a 1x image?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 02, 2014, 01:27:31 pm
Does anybode know how to convert the 16bit image data to absolute temperature values?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 02, 2014, 01:52:24 pm
I hope some of the seek engineers are still following this thread, because I have a pretty good question for them...

Why is there a ghost image that slowly reappears strongest right before a flat field event? It doesn't have to be an intentional image  (like holding the shutter open during a flat field to see it), I notice it creeps back in after a calibration, no matter what it is. Sometimes the flatfield image shows up as blocky hotspots, and it gets hotter right before a fresh flat. Whatever the sensor looked like during the calibration, that image slowly appears right before a new flat field. Even fixed pattern noise shows up. What...is going on?!

I just want to know the math involved in how you subtract the flat from each frame. I don't think its a trade secret or anything, but its clearly some kind of bug. I know sometimes I get 5 frames on a flatfield, sometimes it's only one frame. I tested this while waving the camera with the shutter forced open.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 02, 2014, 01:56:23 pm
To be clear on MSX. 
...
The idea of fusion was enhanced by allowing the transparency of the visible light image to be adjusted in order to have lower impact on the thermal image data that was being displayed.
I saw this Flir's patent claim and while they make this transparency they have to modify thermal image in a way I do not like at all to show transpareny on their output images,
so they claim in their patent file that they avoid thermal image change but they have to do it while nobody could notice those added edges if they do not changed thermal image  :-DD

So, thank you very much for long overview, but just developing my own software and I have another vision of how this fusion might be and do not care too much what Flir claims in their patents while I wouldn't like again use the same word for this since those patent claim is... b*llshit   :rant:

I've choosen this difficult ground gray image as example just to see what Flir's MSX will do in this case?
I could do such test but do not plan to buy any Flir cams with their MSX, because I do not like those artifical edges on thermal image affected by added edges from visual in a way they did it.
I prefer simply make those edges white or black depending on average temperatures on thermal image while I used to use iron palette where whit eis top hot and black is minimum cold.
It can be done better and even simply overwrite with black or white edge from hi-res visual 5MP-8MP camera (full HD) can in many cases look better than messing with this Flir's MSX.
So, that is why I'd like to see how grass or ground in the garden with hot spots will look like with Flir's MSX enabled, while I hope it possible turn it off or change its tarnsparency level etc., but there are endless amount of edges when one looks at green grass, leafs in the wood or even ground with stones and other small things...which will make more challenging to detect edges and remove unwanted from output image for fusion with thermal IR and visual camera.  :-/O

Flir's MSX? No thanks, I can do it in a way I've did many years before any Flir software exists using classic image processing tools available for years and will be able to find science publications many years old if they tried to prewent me from doing this now...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 02, 2014, 02:04:07 pm
Does anybode know how to convert the 16bit image data to absolute temperature values?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg524602/#msg524602 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg524602/#msg524602)

Those are pre getting the real images but the range is about the same.

208x156 16 bits unsigned only 14 bits used.
Pretty much you want to capture the max and min value (ignoring dead pixels and reference ones, under 0x800) and then stretch them ramp them from min to max to fit on a 256 look up table. So (max-min)/256 should get you started.

Edit: Look at sgstairs code posted somewhere in this thread too, also frenzy on post 123 has code but that was before we got the real raw data.

Edit for link to sgstairs post with link to the git depot and what is needed to make it work on a PC running windows:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg534497/#msg534497 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg534497/#msg534497)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Hyperion on November 02, 2014, 03:02:12 pm
So I've managed to reduce the noise using a convoluted method. You guys who have programming skills can probably automate/integrate this whole process. You will need Adobe Photoshop CC, or Photoshop CS6 Extended, or any earlier version of photoshop that supports the Smart Object Stack Mode(s). Note that some versions such as CS6 Standard featured a bug that showed the Stack Mode option in the menu, but it was actually disabled and could not be used in the standard version.

Although the final image will be much better than any image or still from a video from the Seek, you must manage your expectations, as this really just removes the noise and does not improve sharpness etc. It is also time consuming.

1. Start recording a video and setup Seek camera in a tripod or on something stable. You can only record stationary scenes and any moving objects will end up blurred / blended, so it's best if everything is stationary.
2. Leave it alone for ~3 to 5 minutes. We are trying to capture many shutter events after which the noise pattern will change, they usually happen every 2 to 10 seconds.
3. Stop recording and put file on computer.
4. Follow this guide (https://www.isimonbrown.co.uk/vlc-export-frames/ (https://www.isimonbrown.co.uk/vlc-export-frames/)) to use VLC media player to save its output as images. In step 7, set the value to something between 60 and 90; given the framerate of the video is 14 fps, this works out to be several seconds and enough for 1 or 2 shutter events to have taken place. For the example below, I used a value of 60 on a roughly 5 minute video and ended up with 64 usable images. You could also use VirtualDub to export the frames. (You can choose to output every single frame of the video however this will greatly increase processing (CPU) time of later steps.)
5. Go to the folder it exported the images to. You have to delete those at the start and end which are not spatially aligned with the bulk of the rest. eg. when you moved the camera to start/top recording.
6. Open images in Windows Photo Viewer or your application of choice and hold whichever shortcut scans rapidly through the images (eg, Right arrow key) to ensure they are all aligned
7. Open one of the versions of Photoshop listed above. Go File -> Scripts -> Load Files into Stack
8. Go to Select -> All layers, then, Layer -> Smart Objects -> Convert to Smart object
9. You can now go into the Smart Objects menu and choose the Stacking mode. For the example below I used Mean which is arguably the best.

Alternatively, programs like PhotoAcute that can do stacking / blending and superresolution can achieve the same result, however, these kind of programs tend to require subscriptions / purchases to use them fully. That is why I suggest photoshop and although it too isn't free most people have better access to it.

Below is my computer tower's internals made from 64 stacked images: I will look into using smaller numbers of frames after work tomorrow.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: RAWebb on November 02, 2014, 03:41:11 pm
Close up lenses are used to provide detailed images of PCB's etc.

I've put up a simple holder for the 20mm ZnSe lenses over at Thingiverse. It's just a friction fit which depends on the asymmetry of the camera face to hold it in place, but it seems to do the trick. Should do well enough to keep handy in the toolbag. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:525605 (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:525605)
have any pictures you've taken with this setup?

Yep, there are a couple at Thingiverse. I'll stick 'em over here as well, one each with a 100mm and 50mm aux lens.

They are noisy and the resolution isn't world-changing but it's better than the "Ow! $#!% my finger!" test to answer the question "What's pulling all the current on this damned board?"

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 02, 2014, 04:09:22 pm
@Hyperion,

The noise on your non stacked frame is pretty acceptable. That's probably because they already do a ton of post processing on the image we get through the seek app. I'm downloading vb express and I'll see if I can mess around with the code to do some stacking and black pixel fill in, but I'm not well versed in vb...so don't expect anything amazing. We need to get cracking on this if we are going to improve the image quality beyond what the seek software engineers have done. There may not be much left to be improved on...but I hope there is more we can do.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 02, 2014, 05:40:31 pm
Does anybode know how to convert the 16bit image data to absolute temperature values?
Those are pre getting the real images but the range is about the same.
208x156 16 bits unsigned only 14 bits used.
Pretty much you want to capture the max and min value (ignoring dead pixels and reference ones, under 0x800) and then stretch them ramp them from min to max to fit on a 256 look up table. So (max-min)/256 should get you started.
I made a look into that code since I'm interested in own Linux USB driver if they resolve those gradient issues.

This hardcoded 0x800 looks bad in this code, as well as fitting to 256 LUT- while we have 14bit using 1024 LUT could give much better results.
Also averaging/convolution  methods used in this code are computational not efficient- it can be done much faster using a little bit memory which is not concern on modern devices while we'are processing 208x156 raw sensor data.
Also it does not use any moving average between frames, so no chance to make this image less noisy by mounting this thermal dongle on tripod to avoid any movements while it does not have any stabilization.

I suggest reading image processing publications to make this code more efficient, however USB communication part might be usefull if someone have no chance to make USB sniffing  :-+
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 02, 2014, 05:44:39 pm
So I've managed to reduce the noise using a convoluted method.
You mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_average (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_average) ? How many frames used and what is output frame rate from this sensor hardware catched by USB?

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 02, 2014, 05:57:06 pm
Yep, there are a couple at Thingiverse. I'll stick 'em over here as well, one each with a 100mm and 50mm aux lens.

They are noisy and the resolution isn't world-changing but it's better than the "Ow! $#!% my finger!" test to answer the question "What's pulling all the current on this damned board?"
One question-is it possible from Seek Thermal application save output images like those you provided not in JPEG format, but in other losless like RGB PNG for example?
Aren't those saved JPEG images infected by JPEG compression level-what I mean-do they looks the same noisy on the screen before saving them?
Is it possible to force save them with 100% quality level as JPEG or losless PNG?
Those images have wisible 8x8 pixel boxes and it is interesting it is JPEG quality level less than 100% or simply it is intentionally made to fit into those military ITAR standards.
This gradient effect can also be deliberate action pro ITAR rules,
but it is only speculation, while i'm not thermal cameras manufacturer and never do not followed those ITAR rules http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations) which might affect somehow such kind of equipment designed for mass production...

Probably Seek Thermal must hate this found gradient issue which could be more difficult to catch without USB row data from sensor (as well as dead pixels) and @Mike made additional video on that  gradient :-+
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 02, 2014, 06:19:35 pm
So I've managed to reduce the noise using a convoluted method.
You mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_average (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_average) ? How many frames used and what is output frame rate from this sensor hardware catched by USB?

It looks like he converted the video to still frames and just stacked 64 frames using averaging math. This is the same as using a webcam on a telescope to get sharper planetary imaging. It gets the actual true image by averaging out abnormalities caused by atmosphere and noise. Many webcams can capture at over 30 fps...this fast frame rate helps overcome tracking errors or the need to track at all. Basically you can get a really good image every second.

For us, we need the ability to get the full framerate off the sensor, because right now it's only allowing around 9fps. Its averaging 5 frames together for each visible frame. By my math its about a 45fps sensor. Its a shame ITAR limits the fps on such a low resolution sensor.

I did manage to compile the seeker windows program on a dell venue tablet and run it with the camera plugged directly into the usb port. I notice a lot of white specs along with dead pixels and the null pixels. We'll just call those patent pixels.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 02, 2014, 06:20:41 pm
I agree, larger than 256 LUTs can be used specially if they are color
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: datsthat on November 02, 2014, 06:24:10 pm
This is the reason why gradient is an issue for my useage is because I can't set temp low enough to ensure it catches lifeform without the gradient interfering.


Temp 50 degrees.  Wooded area with my son
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x424/Datsthat/Seek%20Thermal/Screenshot_2014-11-01-15-09-37_zps6fruvx6s.png) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/Datsthat/media/Seek%20Thermal/Screenshot_2014-11-01-15-09-37_zps6fruvx6s.png.html)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 02, 2014, 07:59:08 pm
For us, we need the ability to get the full framerate off the sensor, because right now it's only allowing around 9fps. Its averaging 5 frames together for each visible frame. By my math its about a 45fps sensor. Its a shame ITAR limits the fps on such a low resolution sensor.
9 fps not so bad -if moving average of 8 were used than even on MPU it can be fast while divide by 8 in assembler can be performed by shifting bits and will be fast -no integer divide needed, and output 1 Hz frequency could be fine in many applications if we were able improve image quality  8)

I did manage to compile the seeker windows program on a dell venue tablet and run it with the camera plugged directly into the usb port.
Nice, so if you could add a few lines of code where raw sensor data is read and output it simply as unsigned int or uint16_t to text file (than compress) without any comparisions and changing to 0 those pixels with 0x800 condition in this code-raw data as it comes from the sensor in format below (and include also thermal image of catched object as well as its visual image to see what light conditions it was: dark, normal working light) they maybe someone from the forum could be able to figure out what is in those last 2 columns in those raw sensor images.
Code: [Select]
/**
 * (C) 2014 Eneuro
 */
 #include <stdio.h>
 #include <stdlib.h>
 #include <math.h>
 #include <string.h>
 #include <time.h>

void random_init() {
srand(time(0) );
}

double random_double() {
return ((double)rand())/RAND_MAX;
}

unsigned int random_14bit() {
// 2^14= 16384
unsigned int pixel= random_double()*16384;

if(pixel>=16384) {
pixel= 16384-1;
}

return pixel;
}

int main(int argc, char *argv ) {


unsigned int i, j, k, l, m, n;
unsigned int y,x, w= 208, h= 156, wh= w*h;
unsigned int img0, *img;
unsigned int f, frames= 8;

random_init();
img= (unsigned int*)malloc(sizeof(unsigned int)*wh );


// frames
for(f=0; f<frames; f++ ) {

// frame
// Create random image with 14bit data or read from sensor
for(i=0; i<wh; i++ ) {
img[i]= random_14bit();
} // Create random image with 14bit data or read from sensor

// Output frame
// rows
for(y=0; y<h; y++ ) {
// column
for(x=0; x<w; x++ ) {
img0= (unsigned int)img[y*w +x];
printf("%05u ", img0 );
} // column
printf("\n");
} // rows
printf("\n\n");
// Output frame

// frame

} // frames

return 0;
}
so, each frame in this text file could look like this below separated by 2 empty lines (it is LF 10 dec codes on Linux and CRLF 13 dec 10 dec on Window$ as text new line character(s) ).
Output text file looks like this in the case of C source code shown above:
(http://s5.postimg.org/dbim2d3dv/seek_thermal_sensor_raw_text_frames_txt.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/dbim2d3dv/)
This way if we compress such text file with many frames of row data from sensor one could for example to investigate how this gradient evolves in time.
You can add delay and output to such text file for example sequence of 8 frames than delay 10 seconds another one etc, for 10 minutes and this way if you had this thermal cam on tripod pointed to flat surface we could try to see how it changes in time, by applying moving average to each 8 frames and another ones after delay.

When applied from 4-1024 convolutions to some raw USB sensor image pointed to such flat surface I've got something like this
(http://s5.postimg.org/op55dkdwj/seek_thermal_gradient_1_usb_raw_data_by_marshall.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/op55dkdwj/)
but it was 8bit per channel RGB, so 14bit degraded to 8bit by software we are talking about and gradient image made by @marshallh,
but it could be interesting to see how it changes in time without any postprocessing-just raw 14bit sensor data with iron 1024 LUT or 14bit.

BTW: Compressed 8 frames of 14 bit raw data in text format shown above is <1MB so easy to exchange for investigation of gradient issue and those strange 2 last columns in each frame  ::)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 02, 2014, 08:25:33 pm
Does anybode know how to convert the 16bit image data to absolute temperature values?
Those are pre getting the real images but the range is about the same.
208x156 16 bits unsigned only 14 bits used.
Pretty much you want to capture the max and min value (ignoring dead pixels and reference ones, under 0x800) and then stretch them ramp them from min to max to fit on a 256 look up table. So (max-min)/256 should get you started.
I made a look into that code since I'm interested in own Linux USB driver if they resolve those gradient issues.

This hardcoded 0x800 looks bad in this code, as well as fitting to 256 LUT- while we have 14bit using 1024 LUT could give much better results.
Also averaging/convolution  methods used in this code are computational not efficient- it can be done much faster using a little bit memory which is not concern on modern devices while we'are processing 208x156 raw sensor data.
Also it does not use any moving average between frames, so no chance to make this image less noisy by mounting this thermal dongle on tripod to avoid any movements while it does not have any stabilization.

I suggest reading image processing publications to make this code more efficient, however USB communication part might be usefull if someone have no chance to make USB sniffing  :-+

I'd also suggest dithering (making slight movements occasionally) the camera if on a tripod and then aligning the images on the subject is an excellent way to minimize FP noise (especially if you use a Sigma Reject type of combining algorithm).    I've been playing a bit the the PC SW from here and using my astro SW (which works internally with .fits files which are B&W and uses up to 32 bit ints or even 64 bit Float pixel values).   Need to dedicate some more attention here when I get some time.   It's a simple format, so I should be able to output in the .FITs format.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 02, 2014, 10:23:00 pm
I did manage to compile the seeker windows program on a dell venue tablet and run it with the camera plugged directly into the usb port. I notice a lot of white specs along with dead pixels and the null pixels. We'll just call those patent pixels.
That was my intent for usage as well, I bought my wife a Venue tablet last year and she doesn't use it for fear to damage the screen.

It's been a busy weekend so no much progress from me. I'm starting an app from scratch with C++, so far I got the USB enumerated and very close to open it.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 03, 2014, 03:10:16 am
Yes please do code in c++. I can actually read that a lot better than c#.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 03, 2014, 06:03:24 am
I did get the C# program modified to save a 16 bit unmolested, unscaled image from the Seek.    Since 16 bit grayscale doesn't seem to be supported, I had to do 48 bit color (with R=G=B).    But it's a true 48 bit PNG file, openable by Photoshop (or my astro software).

Seems to be using the range from 31,500 = ice to 33,000 = 97F router.

Early days on this...more playing to come.  Need sleep :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 03, 2014, 07:38:07 am
Since 16 bit grayscale doesn't seem to be supported, I had to do 48 bit color (with R=G=B).
Gray Alpha channels in PNG could be used-easy to write using libPNG  ;)
http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/book/chapter08.html#png.ch08.div.5.4 (http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/book/chapter08.html#png.ch08.div.5.4)

However, this FITS image format (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FITS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FITS)) can be very usefull there  :-+
Quote
"Flexible Image Transport System (FITS) is an open standard[3] defining a digital file format useful for storage, transmission and processing of scientific and other images."

There is a few links to FITS docs, libs, sample files on NASA web pages:
The FITS Support Office at NASA/GSFC  http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/ (http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/)
http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/fits_documentation.html (http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/fits_documentation.html)
http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/fits_libraries.html (http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/fits_libraries.html)

I've downloaded for research this simple:
The Interactive FITS File Editor   fv: http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/software/ftools/fv (http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/software/ftools/fv)

http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/software/ftools/fv/fv_download.html (http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/software/ftools/fv/fv_download.html)
ftp://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/software/lheasoft/fv/fv53.exe (http://ftp://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/software/lheasoft/fv/fv53.exe)
ftp://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/software/lheasoft/fv/fv53_pc_linux64.tar.gz (http://ftp://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/software/lheasoft/fv/fv53_pc_linux64.tar.gz)

With funtools library it should be easy add support for FITS images to application
https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~john/funtools/ (https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~john/funtools/)
https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~john/funtools/funtools.pdf (https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~john/funtools/funtools.pdf)

There is  Definition of the Flexible Image Transport System (FITS) (http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/standard30/fits_standard30aa.pdf)

Using mentioned above fv it is easy view and modify eg. sample Hubble telescope image I've downloaded from NASA website for testing (it is just 16bit):
(http://s5.postimg.org/a9wf65fmr/fv_fits_viewer_editor.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/a9wf65fmr/)

Which is more interesting contours can be added to those FITS image files as well as other data incuding tables, etc, so Flir's MSX no longer needed to add edges while we can output thermal image in this FITS format with contours :-+
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=116130)

No problem to load such FITS image even using GIMP, but probably this data is scalled to 8bit I guess,
so using software like fv is adwantage.

I've suggested simple text format for investigation purposes while no problem with bits order in different machines and it is easy to add only few lines of code to output this raw data while we have fixed size Seek Thermal sensor image data, so easier than include FITS library, but while NASA is using FITS and it i sdesigned with backward compatibility for archives purposes, so it is well defined image format  :-/O

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 03, 2014, 02:52:46 pm
Since 16 bit grayscale doesn't seem to be supported, I had to do 48 bit color (with R=G=B).
Gray Alpha channels in PNG could be used-easy to write using libPNG  ;)
http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/book/chapter08.html#png.ch08.div.5.4 (http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/book/chapter08.html#png.ch08.div.5.4)

However, this FITS image format (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FITS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FITS)) can be very usefull there  :-+
Quote
"Flexible Image Transport System (FITS) is an open standard[3] defining a digital file format useful for storage, transmission and processing of scientific and other images."

There is a few links to FITS docs, libs, sample files on NASA web pages:
The FITS Support Office at NASA/GSFC  http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/ (http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/)
http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/fits_documentation.html (http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/fits_documentation.html)
http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/fits_libraries.html (http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/fits_libraries.html)

I've downloaded for research this simple:
The Interactive FITS File Editor   fv: http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/software/ftools/fv (http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/software/ftools/fv)

http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/software/ftools/fv/fv_download.html (http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/software/ftools/fv/fv_download.html)
ftp://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/software/lheasoft/fv/fv53.exe (http://ftp://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/software/lheasoft/fv/fv53.exe)
ftp://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/software/lheasoft/fv/fv53_pc_linux64.tar.gz (http://ftp://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/software/lheasoft/fv/fv53_pc_linux64.tar.gz)

With funtools library it should be easy add support for FITS images to application
https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~john/funtools/ (https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~john/funtools/)
https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~john/funtools/funtools.pdf (https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~john/funtools/funtools.pdf)

There is  Definition of the Flexible Image Transport System (FITS) (http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/standard30/fits_standard30aa.pdf)

Using mentioned above fv it is easy view and modify eg. sample Hubble telescope image I've downloaded from NASA website for testing (it is just 16bit):
(http://s5.postimg.org/a9wf65fmr/fv_fits_viewer_editor.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/a9wf65fmr/)

Which is more interesting contours can be added to those FITS image files as well as other data incuding tables, etc, so Flir's MSX no longer needed to add edges while we can output thermal image in this FITS format with contours :-+
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=116130)

No problem to load such FITS image even using GIMP, but probably this data is scalled to 8bit I guess,
so using software like fv is adwantage.

I've suggested simple text format for investigation purposes while no problem with bits order in different machines and it is easy to add only few lines of code to output this raw data while we have fixed size Seek Thermal sensor image data, so easier than include FITS library, but while NASA is using FITS and it is designed with backward compatibility for archives purposes, so it is well defined image format  :-/O

Definitely quite familiar with FITS, as I mentioned in a previous post.   I've used it for years in the astrophotography world.    I chose PNG since it was simpler and supported, worked with both the astro SW as well as Photoshop and just wanted to see the data quickly.   I tried TIFF, but the Studio graphics libraries defaulted to 24bit when saving rather than 48 bit.   PNG just worked.    And neither worked with the 16 bit grayscale natively with Studio.   After some googling, it seems to just be unsupported.    FITS is easily created from the ground up since it's pretty simple, so if I find a reason to do so, I'll switch to it.   It would be more efficient for sure, but it's such a small amount of data we're dealing with I'm not so worried about it if it's simpler.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 03, 2014, 05:16:00 pm

BTW, the gradient is indeed still easily seen on the 16 bit raw output from the camera.  Just set the white and blackpoints to give high contrast and it shows up just like in the app.
CORRECTION TO ABOVE: I was using calibrated frames, so the above statement may not be true...will report and hopefully have examples tonight.

One interesting artifact I notices is a oval light patter in the upper left corner just like sgstairs shown in post 312.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/312/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/312/)

Too coincidental to be a random manufacturing glue or dirt I would think...but marshallh's image next to it didn't seem to show it, so it may be a batch thing.

But it's invisible in the app, so it must get compensated for in the calibration.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 03, 2014, 05:48:13 pm
the gradient is indeed still easily seen on the 16 bit raw output from the camera.
How many dead pixels has your sensor?  >:D
I mean those close to black pixels which does not fit into the "good black" hexagonal pattern.

Post your 14bit sensor output to compare with those other 8bit raw sensor images.
It could be interesting to compute percentage of dead pixels in another Seek Thermal camera, but using not touched 14bit raw sensor data-nobody showed such data so far  ;)

Just developing FITS module for 16bit pixel images with contures and PNG RGBA output as well for transparency to avoid Flir's MSX issues in output imaginery from any thermal camera  8)
fits2rgba tool will apply 14bit iron palette on resized image and optionally add contures transparency in Aplha channel from hi res visual camera  8)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 03, 2014, 06:39:44 pm
BTW, the gradient is indeed still easily seen on the 16 bit raw output from the camera.  Just set the white and blackpoints to give high contrast and it shows up just like in the app.

One interesting artifact I notices is a oval light patter in the upper left corner just like sgstairs shown in post 312.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/312/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/312/)

Too coincidental to be a random manufacturing glue or dirt I would think...but marshallh's image next to it didn't seem to show it, so it may be a batch thing.

But it's invisible in the app, so it must get compensated for in the calibration.

My raw images don't have any circles in the field but plenty of bad pixels. These things claim to pass QC before they are shipped. I think they are "allowing" a greater amount of bad sensors through because the demand is so high.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 03, 2014, 06:55:55 pm
My raw images don't have any circles in the field but plenty of bad pixels. These things claim to pass QC before they are shipped. I think they are "allowing" a greater amount of bad sensors through because the demand is so high.

At 12 micro meters those dead pixels are not a big concern as long as they don't form large deadzones, it's not a display after all and the whole thing costs less than just the lepton sensor by itself.

So I don't think I would use the term "allowing", it's what it is at this development stage. As long as it can be software corrected the sensors they are shipping are fine for the cost they are offered at.
You can always spend $1000 for the therm-app one if you want a better camera/sensor/optics/etc...

Edit: and they probably have dead pixels as well in their raw data for all we know.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 03, 2014, 06:59:02 pm
One correction...

After more sleep and looking at the code more, I was looking at calibrated frames, where x8000 was added as a bias and the last ambient calibration frame subtracted.  This explains why the ice was < 0x8000 and the router was > 0x8000 (colder and hotter than ambient)

So the thermal gradient may still be introduced by the subtraction of the calibration frame...I'll see tonight when I have time.

I made some mods so I will be outputting 100% using uncalibrated, unbiased frames as well as raw calibration frames themselves.   Then I can perform proper FF calibration (and bad pixel mapping) in my astro software and create calibration frames taken

Trying to get the errors to a bare minimum before  applying any filtering to retain as much detail as possible.

Sorry for any confusion.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 03, 2014, 07:33:50 pm
You can ignore all of the calibration frames if you want. If you look at sgstair's code byte 20 of the raw data (pixel 10) is used to determine if it's a cal frame or a good frame.

Edit: I wonder if the horizontal bands are due to the flag introducing noise:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115067;image)

Edit: picture of Mike's shutter (doesn't seem to be the same pattern on the whole shutter so I don't know) might be just noise from the sensor itself:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=114953;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 03, 2014, 07:37:31 pm
You can ignore all of the calibration frames if you want. If you look at sgstair's code byte 20 of the raw data (pixel 10) is used to determine if it's a cal frame or a good frame.

I'm going to save off the cal frames separately so I can analyze them and possibly use them for image processing.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 03, 2014, 07:38:16 pm
They already are on a separate buffer :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 03, 2014, 08:41:29 pm
They already are on a separate buffer :)

Yes, they are saved off in the code, but not saved as an image file to the PC.  I'll save multiple copies of both cal and image frames to I can look at them over time and better understand the dynamics of the situation.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 03, 2014, 08:47:30 pm
I'm going to save off the cal frames separately so I can analyze them and possibly use them for image processing.
It looks like libPNG outputs very nice 16bit gray images with a few lines of C code:
Quote
$ file seek_thermal_sensor_gray_16bit_test_by_eneuro.png
seek_thermal_sensor_gray_16bit_test_by_eneuro.png: PNG image, 208 x 156, 16-bit grayscale, non-interlaced
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=116195)
Probably you wish you had such sensor output from your Seek Thermal on flat surface without any gradients and dead pixels  :-DD

They can be read and viewed and processed in 16bit gray mode using  ImageJ2  (http://imagej.net/Welcome) image processing software  ;)
(http://s5.postimg.org/oggrf4fvn/imagej2_view_seek_thermal_sensor_gray_16bit_test.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/oggrf4fvn/)

If someone is interested there is C source
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8818206/16-bit-grayscale-png (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8818206/16-bit-grayscale-png)
it requires PNG library.

It looks like optimum image format for sensor output data, while it can be opened in GIMP and other tools in 8bit mode, while people interested in more details can look into its 16bit data in more sophisticated image processing software capable to play with 16bit gray images.
Than all we need after post processing sensor data frames is output augumented FITS with contours or RGBA with 1024 iron LUT.

If someone could output some 16bit gray 208x156  PNG images (not touched by any preprocessing) using tools I've shown above from Seek Thermal sensor raw image it could be nice to  :-/O those last 2 columns or try to predict this gradient  >:D

For my development those test 16bit gray PNG images I've made are fine to simulate Seek Thermal output at given frame rate and see how fast I can process those frames  8)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 03, 2014, 10:12:19 pm
@eneuro,

The raw sensor image you are showing looks pretty good compared to all the sensors raw outputs I've seen. Lots of dead pixels, areas where the pixel data is bleached. I honestly don't know what's going on with the white blobs on the sensor. They don't appear to be usable data. So that mixed with dead pixels and the null pixels means these sensors are pretty grade c.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 03, 2014, 10:27:48 pm
he doesn't have a camera, it's just a test image the simulates a raw perfect image
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 03, 2014, 11:01:47 pm
The raw sensor image you are showing looks pretty good compared to all the sensors raw outputs I've seen.
Yep, this is of course simulation, while tested which PC software can read those 16bit gray images  ;)
So, that is why included links to this libPNG based soft-people who tweak this C# or C++ code can add support for 16bit gray images and output from their real Seek Thermal sensors raw data while nobody so far posted there its not manipulated 14bit output  :o
A few frames from different sensors could show how those dead pixels are distributed maybe even between different orders numbers and how many it is ???
More than 1.5%?  ???
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 03, 2014, 11:26:20 pm
Reference pixels or dead pixels, the ones in the pattern are purposely turned off and they are every 15 pixels from this series modulus height: 10, 6, 2, 13, 9, 5, 1, 12, 8, 4, 0, 11, 7, 3, 14
So on the first row is: 10, 25, 40 ...
on the second row is: 6, 21, 36 ...
on the sixteenth row is the same as the first row: 10, 25, 40 ...

Not sure why it never starts on pixel 15 but it just doesn't.

I added code back on page 32, to interpolate those pixels, the same loop can be done to generate them.
Just declare a uint16 array of 208*156,  and fill it with 0x8000, then use that loop and instead of averaging set those values to 0.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg538322/#msg538322 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg538322/#msg538322)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 03, 2014, 11:46:32 pm
Reference pixels or dead pixels, the ones in the pattern are purposely turned off and they are every 15 pixels from this series modulus height: 10, 6, 2, 13, 9, 5, 1, 12, 8, 4, 0, 11, 7, 3, 14
So on the first row is: 10, 25, 40 ...
on the second row is: 6, 21, 36 ...
on the sixteenth row is the same as the first row: 10, 25, 40 ...

Not sure why it never starts on pixel 15 but it just doesn't.

I added code back on page 32, to interpolate those pixels, the same loop can be done to generate them.
Just declare a uint16 array of 208*156,  and fill it with 0x8000, then use that loop and instead of averaging set those values to 0.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg538322/#msg538322 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg538322/#msg538322)

You did precisely what I described, minus the corners. But 4 data points should be good enough, and from your images there, they look VERY good. In fact, I'd say they look sharper than any other images. The next problem to tackle is the hot pixels. Are they pegged at the same values?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 03, 2014, 11:56:21 pm
I do the corners, not the last two non active columns because, well, they are not active.
Edit: nevermind you mean the diagonals, I didn't do those because it was good enough.

If you only have 3 neighbors then it will use those, if only 2 then only those two.

I've been busy so not a lot of progress, but I want to take several reference images at different temperatures to characterize my camera.

If linear, then on dead pixels the slope will be 0, as in y=0*x+b because the pixel is dead and will no vary. If it only varies a little then it will have a flatter slope but non zero.

But I need to find time to do this.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 04, 2014, 04:15:39 am
OK...here's a bonanza of files.   I modded the c# program to output 48 bit PNG files directly from the SEEK, uncalibrated and unscaled...direct from the camera.   I just duplicated value for each of the RGB channels.   Not pretty, but it got the job done.   Each frame got an incremented number (whether cal or image), so frame 1 is always a calibrate image, frame 2 starts 3 or 4 real images, then a calibration and so on as the shutter runs.

I then used my astro program to convert to true 16 bit grayscale and I saved in both PNG format and FITS format.   I included the paired raw shutter closed calibration frame (ends in c) taken immediately before the image frame (ends in i).  I have placed the files here:

http://www.ricksastro.com/temp/seekraw/ (http://www.ricksastro.com/temp/seekraw/)

There are 2 different scenes.   One is taken against flat notebook paper (flatpaper) at ambient 73F. One is an image of my router (router).

To give you an idea of what things look like, here is a screenshot of the router images and the process used in the Astro software (MaximDL).   I set the Black and Whitepoints to linearly stretch and show the real data ranges without altering the data.  The top left image is the raw calibration frame.  The top right is the actual image file...it's incredible that you really can't see barely a hint of the object, obfuscated by noise.

The bottom left is simply the image - cal + 3000 for each pixel.   That's where the magic happens and the veil of noise is lifted.  The 3000 is arbitrary just to prevent <0.   

The middle bottom is that image with a bad pixel map applied (created from a calibration frame to get rid of the dead (black) pixels that are in every raw frame).   Interestingly, I didn't find any fixed pattern hot (white) pixels.    When I isolated the few brightest pixels from several calibration frames, there was no repeating pattern. 

The right-bottom had a simple median neighbor filter applied.

I completely gave up hope of getting anything useful without subtracting the cal frame.    I'd be interested to understand how seek gets rid of most of the horizontal lines.   They appear to be pretty fixed, so maybe some Flat Field is stored off.

I'll try next to create a true flatfield calibration from the paper image and apply to the router image to see how that improves it.

I'm having a tough time analyzing the gradient source, since it's nearly impossible to glean anything from either the cal frame or the flat image frame in isolation.

As you can see on the Screen stretch dialog of the median image, the real data is only really from 2555-3158 (remember, I added 3000), which is only a range of 603 (of course the temp range is only about 25F in that scene).

(http://www.ricksastro.com/temp/seekraw/Seek_cal.jpg)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 04, 2014, 05:32:32 am
That image looks shaaaaarp right up to that median filter. I really think there could be a better way. Perhaps you could scan each pixel and compare it to the average of its neighbors. If its value differs by a specific amount (say 10), replace that pixel with the average and move to the next pixel. Individual bad pixels that aren't showing as dead pixels xould be calculated out that way. The only thing that can't be solved is blobs, but I think that's a fair compromise for sharpness.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 04, 2014, 07:43:19 am
So I don't know how your flat notebook paper and router images are, but if I subtract the flat paper from the router the bands go away, this is what I did on my version of the sgstairs program that is posted somewhere in this thread. Pretty much I have a button that takes a flat reference image that gets used as well as the flat field.

Anyways I'm getting some thresholding overflow or underflow from your images but the banding is gone, other that introduces some vertical banding now.

But the result is not great using some random flat field to get rid of the horizontal lines.
I think Seek knows what the lines are or they do some filtering to average the lines
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 04, 2014, 08:14:16 am
So playing with your end result and doing a lot of filtering per pixel arithmetic you can clear up the bands and add detail as well, I over did it in this one and it shows more heat on the router that it should have.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 04, 2014, 09:15:59 am
@ricksastro
Nice 14bit sensor data  :-+
Did you modified its pixels eg, those output FITS files and 16bit channel RGB (48bit) converted to 16bit gray PNGs or only this JPEG with screen shot from your software has calibrated pixel data in a way you descibed in your post ?  ::)

I'd be interested to understand how seek gets rid of most of the horizontal lines.   They appear to be pretty fixed, so maybe some Flat Field is stored off.
Maybe data from last 2 columns is used to modify somehow rows  ;)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=116276)
Opened in fv this FITS file and later will try to predict this yellow value based on pixel values in row from 1-106 columns  >:D
The more data the better aproximation could be, while multidimensional aproximation could be used to find out if there is correlation with row pixel data in column 207-208 in those Seek Thermal USB raw data images.
If more such calibration 16bit gray images or FITS were provided, I could try to investigate and even teach neural network to try to predict those last two columns 207-208  >:D

Another concern is those amount of conected dead pixels on this sensor  :o
I'll calulate later its percentage based on those few sample images, but I do not know why there are on some sensors more than one such 4 dead pixels groups close to "good black" hexagon patented ones?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=116278)
It is interesting if Seek Thermal has quaility measures of limits of such connected dead sensor pixels count, while total percentage can be fine, but such blobs of dead pixels in this area including those hexagon pixels doesn't looks great and now if we want fill them with some data it is even more challenging if it were only one pixel and all around with real thermal image data >:(
Now dead pixel area is 2 times bigger than their great 12um resolution...

Maybe Seek Thermal Team EEVBLOg forum member will tell us how many such dead pixels one could expect on decent quality thermal sensor  |O

BTW: It looks like those FITS files are flipped vertical so first row on PNG image is last on FITS etc  ;)




Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on November 04, 2014, 11:23:33 am
If anyone wants to play with FITS files in C# this should be helpful.
Get DLL here: http://vo.iucaa.ernet.in/~voi/CSharpFITS.html (http://vo.iucaa.ernet.in/~voi/CSharpFITS.html)

Add reference to this dll in VS project.

Use the code below to loop through all pixels...
Code: [Select]
using nom.tam.fits;
using System;

namespace ConsoleApplication1
{
    class Program
    {
        static void Main(string[] args)
        {
            Fits f = new Fits(@"C:\temp\thermo\router_image2i.fit");
            ImageHDU h= (ImageHDU) f.ReadHDU();
            System.Array img = (System.Array[])h.Kernel;

            int x = 0, y = 0;//for pixel position tracking

            foreach (short[] collection in img)
            {
                Console.WriteLine("LineNo: "+ y);
                foreach (UInt16 pixVal in collection)
                {
                    Console.Write(pixVal + ",");
                    x++;
                }
                y++;
                Console.WriteLine("");
            }
            Console.Read();
        }
    }
}
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 04, 2014, 01:25:47 pm
@ricksastro
Nice 14bit sensor data  :-+
Did you modified its pixels eg, those output FITS files and 16bit channel RGB (48bit) converted to 16bit gray PNGs or only this JPEG with screen shot from your software has calibrated pixel data in a way you descibed in your post ?  ::)
The output fits and png's are unmodified, unscaled, unbiased, unstretched...they are how they come from the camera.
For the JPG, MaximDL allows you to stretch the image visually without modifying the underlying data, since any mods to the data screws up calibration.   So the jpg screenshot shows them linearly stretched (black and whitepoint set to the edged of the data on the histogram), but the underlying files are not, even the filtered one.    Once you perform the subtraction calibration, then you need to add some sort of bias, otherwise you'll get negative values.  It's not like what I'm used to in light land where you take a covered dark and/or bias frame to isolate the noise sources for proper calibration...you can't "cover" thermal, so you have to deal with signal in your calibration frames.

BTW: It looks like those FITS files are flipped vertical so first row on PNG image is last on FITS etc  ;)
When I view either file (PNG or FITS), they look and act identical, unflipped.   Must just be the way they store the FITS file or the way your library is handling them differently.    I just did a"save-as" of the png file to the FITS from MaximDL, so no process that would do any flipping.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 04, 2014, 02:14:50 pm
Once you perform the subtraction calibration, then you need to add some sort of bias, otherwise you'll get negative values.
I research test software I use libPNG to load 16bit gray PNG 208x156 images, and then convert it to double so no problem with negative values  ;)
After image processing those images can be scaled to 0.0-1.0 and calculate index integer values needed for chosen LUT size (8bit-10bit-14bit-16bit):
Code: [Select]
index= round(val_double*LUT_size);

Next step is plot this iron LUT table which is 256 size and rescale to 1024, for 10bit LUT or even to 14bit 16384 long - probably it can be created in software using math functions for RGB channels based on desired LUT size-do not played with this iron LUT table channels so far, but probably they can be aproximated and recreated later in software  without any hardcoding in source files or imput LUT images :-/O
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 04, 2014, 02:43:14 pm
Once you perform the subtraction calibration, then you need to add some sort of bias, otherwise you'll get negative values.
I research test software I use libPNG to load 16bit gray PNG 208x156 images, and then convert it to double so no problem with negative values  ;)

Not sure why converting double does anything for negative values.   When you mathematically subtract the calibration frame from the thermal frame, those areas in the thermal frame that are of a lower temperature than the calibration frame will mathematically be negative no matter the format unless you add in a bias to compensate.   You could convert to floating point and have the same issue
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 04, 2014, 06:39:08 pm
When you mathematically subtract the calibration frame from the thermal frame, those areas in the thermal frame that are of a lower temperature than the calibration frame will mathematically be negative no matter the format unless you add in a bias to compensate.
I forgot about those calibration frames for the moment at all, while just processing visual web cam outputs in OpenCV ;)

For the moment just ploted this iron256.lut.png and converted each RGB color channnel to text data to model in maxima and find its aproximations, to be able by passing real number in the range of 0.0-1.0 get LUT RGB channel colors, so later easy to resize to any size in own software 8)
(http://s5.postimg.org/j2rmiflur/iron256_lut_dat.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/j2rmiflur/)
Does it makes any sense this Thermal Iron LUT plot?
It is interesting that its blue channel has such strange response to temperature  ::)

Attached processed PNG with this iron LUT table as text data file with normalized temperature index in first column if someone wanted do the same dynamic scaling, resizing to 1024, etc..
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: datsthat on November 04, 2014, 08:37:49 pm
Seek Thermal has been following this thread with great interest.  We would like to be as transparent as possible, realizing that competition may use this as ammunition, but we believe that in the end we will be helped far more than hurt by an open and honest exchange.
 
Seek Thermal Inc. has been built from the ground up bring affordable IR sensors to the commercial market. 
 
We greatly appreciate the professional attitude and creative troubleshooting your collaborators have demonstrated.  We are actively reviewing our product to confirm your findings.  Identifying these issues early in our production cycle gives us a good opportunity to implement improvements when appropriate.  With the low cost of our camera some compromises need to be made between performance and cost.  We will be looking for cost effective improvements to address some of the issues you have identified.
 
Epoxy invasion.  The good news is that our lens attachment process is fully automated.  Thus the process ‘should’ be well controlled and any corrective action should be effective with low variability.
 
We image test every detector visually before shipment, so the worst units will be screened out.  Our experience is that anything under the shutter will be almost perfectly removed by a Flat Field Calibration.
 
Thermal Gradient over time,  We are actively investigating possible improvements to this issue.  No resolution or definite direction yet.  Note that for ‘relative’ thermography where the spot is fixed in the center of the display, we expect thermography to retain its ‘relative’ accuracy.
 
Dark Pixels.  No great mystery here.  Every 15th pixel is intentionally blanked to avoid a potential patent infringement.  Seek has an updated design for future product that eliminate the need for this measure.  With the effective blur length of a 12 micron pixel resolving 8-13 micron Radiation, loss of single isolated pixels does not (in itself) degrade image quality. 

Thank you again for your interest in our product, we look forward to continuing our dialogue with the community.

Best,
The Seek Thermal Team

When will you release the update that resolves the gradient issue?  Thanks
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Seek Thermal Tech on November 04, 2014, 10:32:46 pm
In our first post we thanked the collaborators in this forum for their professional and helpful comments and suggestions. Your response since has been even more impressive. We are grateful.
 
Thermal Gradient:  We have been able to reproduce the thermal gradient effect that several people have reported.  We are now working on a software solution and will incorporate it into an app update within the next month.

One goal for the Seek camera has been ease of operation since we are positioning it as the first general consumer thermal camera. Thus, while some have suggested a user triggered 'Secondary’ calibration, that is an extra step that could require a significant amount of user education for nonprofessionals, and lead to frustration when the gradient returns.  In that spirit we are focused on a fully automatic compensation solution in the upcoming application update. 
 
Thanks again, 
 
Seek Technical Team
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Seek Thermal Tech on November 04, 2014, 10:34:59 pm
-----------  NOV 3   --------------------
I hope some of the seek engineers are still following this thread, because I have a pretty good question for them...

Why is there a ghost image that slowly reappears strongest right before a flat field event? It doesn't have to be an intentional image  (like holding the shutter open during a flat field to see it), I notice it creeps back in after a calibration, no matter what it is. Sometimes the flatfield image shows up as blocky hotspots, and it gets hotter right before a fresh flat. Whatever the sensor looked like during the calibration, that image slowly appears right before a new flat field. Even fixed pattern noise shows up. What...is going on?!

I just want to know the math involved in how you subtract the flat from each frame. I don't think its a trade secret or anything, but its clearly some kind of bug. I know sometimes I get 5 frames on a flatfield, sometimes it's only one frame. I tested this while waving the camera with the shutter forced open.
--------------  END POST. -----------

Please confirm that this only occurs when you interfere with the shutter?

If you interfere with the shutter you can confuse the temporal drift algorithm.

Thanks,
Seek Technical Team
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: heavybarrel on November 04, 2014, 10:39:35 pm
Thanks for the continuing replies Seek Thermal! Just for sanity sake, can you give more info as to the cause of the gradient issue?
Without giving information that you can't obviously. I know a few members here would greatly appreciate knowing the real cause.
I know one in particular that really put in some work on the problem!

Thanks again Seek Thermal, Keep heading in the right direction !!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 04, 2014, 10:44:09 pm
-----------  NOV 3   --------------------
I hope some of the seek engineers are still following this thread, because I have a pretty good question for them...

Why is there a ghost image that slowly reappears strongest right before a flat field event? It doesn't have to be an intentional image  (like holding the shutter open during a flat field to see it), I notice it creeps back in after a calibration, no matter what it is. Sometimes the flatfield image shows up as blocky hotspots, and it gets hotter right before a fresh flat. Whatever the sensor looked like during the calibration, that image slowly appears right before a new flat field. Even fixed pattern noise shows up. What...is going on?!

I just want to know the math involved in how you subtract the flat from each frame. I don't think its a trade secret or anything, but its clearly some kind of bug. I know sometimes I get 5 frames on a flatfield, sometimes it's only one frame. I tested this while waving the camera with the shutter forced open.
--------------  END POST. -----------

Please confirm that this only occurs when you interfere with the shutter?

If you interfere with the shutter you can confuse the temporal drift algorithm.

Thanks,
Seek Technical Team

I think the user reporting that was messing with the shutter, in that case the camera picks up the scene as the reference image, so if you move it slightly or a lot you'll see the ghost image.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=115017;image)

So don't interfere with the shutter and complain it's not working :)

Say I force the shutter open and point the camera to an object that generates heat, if after the calibration I point it to a flat field it will subtract the first scene from the flat field. So it's doing what is supposed to be doing.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 04, 2014, 10:46:09 pm
Great to see Seek Thermal continuing to engage via this forum. Top marks.

I know the SEEK is not open source but from what I have seen in this thread recently it is already leading to some excellent software development work that will likely benefit all  :-+

Very much looking forward to receiving my SEEK camera.

I second the request to know just a little more about the cause of the temperature gradient as some owners, me included, might wish to tackle it through a hardware modification.

I am fine with a PM if it is not the sort of thing you want disclosed on a very public forum.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 04, 2014, 10:52:37 pm
My request to the Seek Thermal team is if there is a timeline for the SDK to be available.

http://www.thermal.com/developers.html (http://www.thermal.com/developers.html)

Also maybe some details on what the SDK supports and what the aim is. Skinning only or actual access to the device?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on November 04, 2014, 10:55:36 pm
Thus, while some have suggested a user triggered 'Secondary’ calibration, that is an extra step that could require a significant amount of user education for nonprofessionals, and lead to frustration when the gradient returns.

With all due respect this is what makes today's computer tech unusable. With UI being replaced by UX and settings which would "get in the way of either designing a minimalistic interface or maybe could confuse some slower users" simply get removed, nothing can be really customized, all configuration is left to the engineers or worse the marketing people and users have to stick it out...

Why not make two flavours of the program (or APP, as is popular to say today) or maybe include a submenu (with a warning) for the "pros"?

Censorship is not allowing a man to have a steak because a baby can't chew it.
--Mark Twain


(I run Linux on my computers and have long thought this wouldn't get to me, and then Gnome 3 came out and with each and every major update more settings went missing...)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 04, 2014, 11:11:11 pm
Thus, while some have suggested a user triggered 'Secondary’ calibration, that is an extra step that could require a significant amount of user education for nonprofessionals, and lead to frustration when the gradient returns.

With all due respect this is what makes today's computer tech unusable. With UI being replaced by UX and settings which would "get in the way of either designing a minimalistic interface or maybe could confuse some slower users" simply get removed, nothing can be really customized, all configuration is left to the engineers or worse the marketing people and users have to stick it out...

Why not make two flavours of the program (or APP, as is popular to say today) or maybe include a submenu (with a warning) for the "pros"?

Censorship is not allowing a man to have a steak because a baby can't chew it.
--Mark Twain


(I run Linux on my computers and have long thought this wouldn't get to me, and then Gnome 3 came out and with each and every major update more settings went missing...)
It's not uncommon for software to have an "advanced" mode for additional functions that might confuse stupid people
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on November 04, 2014, 11:17:23 pm
Thus, while some have suggested a user triggered 'Secondary’ calibration, that is an extra step that could require a significant amount of user education for nonprofessionals, and lead to frustration when the gradient returns.

With all due respect this is what makes today's computer tech unusable. With UI being replaced by UX and settings which would "get in the way of either designing a minimalistic interface or maybe could confuse some slower users" simply get removed, nothing can be really customized, all configuration is left to the engineers or worse the marketing people and users have to stick it out...

Why not make two flavours of the program (or APP, as is popular to say today) or maybe include a submenu (with a warning) for the "pros"?

Censorship is not allowing a man to have a steak because a baby can't chew it.
--Mark Twain


(I run Linux on my computers and have long thought this wouldn't get to me, and then Gnome 3 came out and with each and every major update more settings went missing...)
It's not uncommon for software to have an "advanced" mode for additional functions that might confuse stupid people

I've seen this twice in my life, none being a mainstream consumer software. I often see stuff you don't use frequently buried somewhere in a menu, but the simpleton/proper user approach remains rare to me. The trend towards the simpleton-only approach is alarming.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 04, 2014, 11:19:43 pm
Awww Mike, you are being unusually harsh .....stupid people indeed !  :-DD

There is a time and a place for simplified menu structures, or even no menus at all. Fire fighting thermal cameras are an example of such....just point and view. This can be very good if the automatic functionality is well formed and effective in most situations. I do agree that too much automatic control and not enough manual override is limiting with a thermal camera though.

Digital camera manufacturers got around the issue easily with auto modes and a manual mode for the more experienced photographer. I am not saying auto mode is for stupid people though.... it is for people who just want a pretty picture with minimum hassle  ;)

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Rasz on November 04, 2014, 11:24:11 pm
It's not uncommon for software to have an "advanced" mode for additional functions that might confuse stupid people

no, its INDUSTRY STANDARD to have separate advanced/manual menu, every frickin point and shoot digital camera on the market has some kind of manual menu. It sits unused on 99.9% of cameras because like you said average potato people are too stupid to use it, but its there nonetheless.

software (OSes mainly? maybe apple software in general lately) seems to be the exception, constantly dumping down UI, catering to the lowest common denominator and making it less usable in the process.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on November 04, 2014, 11:40:59 pm
It's not uncommon for software to have an "advanced" mode for additional functions that might confuse stupid people

no, its INDUSTRY STANDARD to have separate advanced/manual menu, every frickin point and shoot digital camera on the market has some kind of manual menu. It sits unused on 99.9% of cameras because like you said average potato people are too stupid to use it, but its there nonetheless.

software (OSes mainly? maybe apple software in general lately) seems to be the exception, constantly dumping down UI, catering to the lowest common denominator and making it less usable in the process.

What I meant was that not many *ware has the average Joe/pro MODES, not menus (with cameras being a third thing about which I had forgotten). Also I stand behind my statement that most consumer oriented stuff dumps options. Have you tried Gnome 3? Messed up, man.

Also sorry for slightly askewing from the main topic of this thread, but it's past midnight in here and I haven't slept for over 20 hours, so there...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 04, 2014, 11:46:49 pm
Seek thermal team,

What I was referring to was that a ghost image of a previous flat field calibration persists into the scene, even after a new flat field. If you are telling me this is a temporal drift algorithm, does it factor in previous calibration frames? This would explain the ghosting I see on fresh calibrations.

To further explain, I am aware of the inverse image you get from subtracting a scene with warm objects. I'm actually trying to say the inverse areas persist into the next set of calibrated frames.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fry-kun on November 05, 2014, 02:21:43 am
Did anyone make a linux driver and/or capture app yet?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: cynfab on November 05, 2014, 03:09:07 am
Funny you should ask, I've been poking at this for a couple of days. I've written a Python program which uses PyUSB to capture calibration and Image Frames from the Seek Imager.

Code: [Select]
# You will need to have python 2.7 (3+ may work)
 # and PyUSB 1.0
 # and PIL 1.1.6 or better
 # and numpy
 # and scipy
 # and ImageMagick

 # Many thanks to the folks at eevblog, especially (in no particular order)
 #   miguelvp, marshallh, mikeselectricstuff, sgstair and many others
 #     for the inspiration to figure this out
 # This is not a finished product and you can use it if you like. Don't be
 # surprised if there are bugs as I am NOT a programmer..... ;>))


import usb.core
import usb.util
import sys
import Image
import numpy
from scipy.misc import toimage

 # find our Seek Thermal device  289d:0010
dev = usb.core.find(idVendor=0x289d, idProduct=0x0010)

 # was it found?
if dev is None:
    raise ValueError('Device not found')

 # set the active configuration. With no arguments, the first
 # configuration will be the active one
dev.set_configuration()

 # get an endpoint instance
cfg = dev.get_active_configuration()
intf = cfg[(0,0)]

ep = usb.util.find_descriptor(
    intf,
    # match the first OUT endpoint
    custom_match = \
    lambda e: \
        usb.util.endpoint_direction(e.bEndpointAddress) == \
        usb.util.ENDPOINT_OUT)

assert ep is not None


 # Deinit the device

msg= '\x00\x00'
assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x3C, 0, 0, msg) == len(msg)
assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x3C, 0, 0, msg) == len(msg)
assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x3C, 0, 0, msg) == len(msg)


 # Setup device

 #msg = x01
assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x54, 0, 0, 0x01)

 #  Some day we will figure out what all this init stuff is and
 #  what the returned values mean.

msg = '\x00\x00'
assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x3C, 0, 0, msg) == len(msg)

ret1 = dev.ctrl_transfer(0xC1, 0x4E, 0, 0, 4)
ret2 = dev.ctrl_transfer(0xC1, 0x36, 0, 0, 12)

 #print ret1
 #print ret2

 #

msg = '\x20\x00\x30\x00\x00\x00'
assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x56, 0, 0, msg) == len(msg)

ret3 = dev.ctrl_transfer(0xC1, 0x58, 0, 0, 0x40)
 #print ret3

 #

msg = '\x20\x00\x50\x00\x00\x00'
assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x56, 0, 0, msg) == len(msg)

ret4 = dev.ctrl_transfer(0xC1, 0x58, 0, 0, 0x40)
 #print ret4

 #

msg = '\x0C\x00\x70\x00\x00\x00'
assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x56, 0, 0, msg) == len(msg)

ret5 = dev.ctrl_transfer(0xC1, 0x58, 0, 0, 0x18)
 #print ret5

 #

msg = '\x06\x00\x08\x00\x00\x00'
assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x56, 0, 0, msg) == len(msg)

ret6 = dev.ctrl_transfer(0xC1, 0x58, 0, 0, 0x0C)
 #print ret6

 #

msg = '\x08\x00'
assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x3E, 0, 0, msg) == len(msg)

ret7 = dev.ctrl_transfer(0xC1, 0x3D, 0, 0, 2)
 #print ret7

 #

msg = '\x08\x00'
assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x3E, 0, 0, msg) == len(msg)
msg = '\x01\x00'
assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x3C, 0, 0, msg) == len(msg)

ret8 = dev.ctrl_transfer(0xC1, 0x3D, 0, 0, 2)
 #print ret8

 #

x=0

while x < 5:

 # Send read frame request

    msg = '\xC0\x7E\x00\x00'
    assert dev.ctrl_transfer(0x41, 0x53, 0, 0, msg) == len(msg)

    ret9  = dev.read(0x81, 0x3F60, 1000)
    ret9 += dev.read(0x81, 0x3F60, 1000)
    ret9 += dev.read(0x81, 0x3F60, 1000)
    ret9 += dev.read(0x81, 0x3F60, 1000)

 #  Let's see what type of frame it is
 #  1 is a Normal frame, 3 is a Calibration frame
 #  6 may be a pre-calibration frame
 #  5, 10 other... who knows.

    status = ret9[20]

    if status == 1:

 #  Convert the raw calibration data to a string array

calimg = Image.fromstring("I", (208,156), ret9, "raw", "I;16")

 #  Convert the string array to an unsigned numpy int16 array

im2arr = numpy.asarray(calimg)
im2arrF = im2arr.astype('uint16')

    if status == 3:

 #  Convert the raw calibration data to a string array

img = Image.fromstring("I", (208,156), ret9, "raw", "I;16")

 #  Convert the string array to an unsigned numpy int16 array

im1arr = numpy.asarray(img)
im1arrF = im1arr.astype('uint16')

 #  Subtract the calibration array from the image array and add an offset

additionF = (im1arrF-im2arrF)+ 800

 #  convert to an image and display with imagemagick

toimage(additionF).show()
x = x + 1

Many thanks to the folks at eevblog, especially (in no particular order)
   miguelvp, marshallh, mikeselectricstuff, sgstair and many others
     for the inspiration to figure this out
 This is not a finished product and you can use it if you like. Don't be
 surprised if there are bugs as I am NOT a programmer..... ;>))

This works for me since my Samsung S4 Mini doesn't work with the Seek App, and while a friend's Nexus 7 (2013) works ok, my Nexus 7 (2012) does not.

This is my first Python program, and there may be lots left to do to make it more useful, but it works on my Ubuntu 14.04 box.

The attached images were saved from ImageMagick, the second after doubling the size and doing a "reduce noise" with radius of 3

  ...ken...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 05, 2014, 09:25:44 am
So I've been experimenting ignoring the calibration frames and forcing a visual frame as the calibration one.

Before I was adjusting the calibrated visual one with the calibrated shutter one before applying it.

What it's interesting is that if I point the camera to a different heat source than the reference one I only get the reference pattern pixels to be the same, all the other pixels are different.

This means that we don't have dead pixels just very unresponsive ones, which can be adjusted and make use of to some degree.

No pictures just did a lot of debugging and looking at the arrays with conditional breakpoints.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 05, 2014, 11:21:34 am
Dead pixels should produce data to a degree. In a bolometer, there should be *something* there since it's measuring resistsance.

Perhaps you could create a map of all dead pixels and multiply or add it to each frame, basically to bump up its poor sensitivity. But you'll have to differentiate between certain pixels, as in the ones below a threshold are to add to each frame, ones above the threshold are to be subtracted (the over responsive pixels).
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 05, 2014, 12:14:55 pm
What it's interesting is that if I point the camera to a different heat source than the reference one I only get the reference pattern pixels to be the same, all the other pixels are different.
How much those dead looking sensor pixels close to black does change?
Maybe they return invalid thermal values anyway, so have to be dismissed and could be useless, unless we know there is valid thermal data which needs to be rescalled somehow ???

Just finished approximation of my favourite thermal Iron LUT and now it is fully parametric, so can output LUTs at any size 10bit 1024, 14bit 16384, even 16bit 65536  8)
(http://s5.postimg.org/4dfz5eycj/ironparamlut1024.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/4dfz5eycj/)
Do not include this Iron parametric 1024 LUT source data, while this is not exact approximation of oryginal Iron 256 showed before, to avoid any confusion.
It is very similar, even more smooth RGB channel colors than in oryginal.
I used a few http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmoid_function (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmoid_function)  and trygonometric and manually fitted together to get perfect parametric aproximation of this thermal Iron LUT.
So, using functions like sigmoid from neural networks "battle fields" was quite good idea, while do not wanted to mess with FFT transformations there.

Now, it is time to try guess what is in those last 207-208 columns in raw sensor data -did anyone tried to find it out?
If all scientific methods fails then we still can try this to crack it :-DD
Hardware Attacks, Advanced ARM Exploitation, and Android Hacking [30c3] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frUvlhO8o8A#ws)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on November 05, 2014, 01:58:32 pm
In the router_image1c.fit and router_image2i.fit files the last value (208th) is always 32768 (1000 0000 0000 0000).
The 207th values are just a little apart in this two files:

Line no | cal | img | diffence
1   38301   38298   3
2   37956   37957   -1
3   37668   37670   -2
4   37995   37995   0
5   37661   37667   -6
6   37959   37961   -2
7   38015   38012   3
8   37968   37974   -6
9   37941   37943   -2
10   37962   37963   -1
11   37648   37647   1


Not sure that's important but it could be.
If it was a checksum of some sort then numbers wouldn't be so similar in this two files...

Added later:
Range of values in 207th column (in both files) is exactly from 37501 to 38359. (If you subtract 32768 you get range 4733-5591.)
That is 858 values.
That could be the number of colors in the image...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 05, 2014, 02:17:16 pm
I don't see how they would need to hide anything useful on the end of the data, other than a CRC of some sort.

Also, I don't know how well scaling bad pixels will be as they will vary across all sensors, and this requires math functions for each pixel that can be mapped as bad. Best case is to average their value if they are found to be very different in value to their neighbors. About a difference of 10 should be sufficient. Scan each pixel, determine if it's bad, replace it with an average. This counts all pixels, even the patent pixels.

I'm curious what Seeks solution is to the gradient issue. They claim to be making a solution in software with no direction on how to characterize indivisual lens issues. I surely hope they don't create a generic gradient map and add it it to the calibration frame. That's like putting a bandage on your arm when your leg is bleeding. So they want an automatic calibration event for the majority they feel are wearing the dunce cap...that's fine, but they need ensure the calibration event has the user placing a flat object to the lens. The problem is, it's a thermal issue for many and a one time calibration will only be good for a short period before the gradient creeps back into the image. It won't be as bad as some subtraction is being done, but the gradient will be present. I've noticed posts on the Facebook page and youtube videos complaining about it. Now its an issue and it does affect image quality. Several palettes can't be used because the gradient kills the contrast.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 05, 2014, 02:50:23 pm
In the router_image1c.fit and router_image2i.fit files the last value (208th) is always 32768 (1000 0000 0000 0000).
The 207th values are just a little apart in this two files:
I think at some point during conversion of the data 32768 has been added. In the images recorded by marshallh (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg533801/#msg533801 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg533801/#msg533801)) the 208th value is 0 and the 207th is around 5200. There is a clear tendency over all frames from 5250 in the first to 5211 in the last. There is no difference between the reference or any other frame. Maybe it is the sensor temperature.
The first few 207th values of the first line:
5250,5251,5247,5247,5249,5247,5246,5241,5246,5244,5244,5243,5240,5242,5242,5241,5240,5238,5240,5239,5238,5237,5237,5240,5236,5233...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on November 05, 2014, 03:00:08 pm
So this numbers are from sequential frames?
It's interesting that values are going down with time. But it makes no sense to me, to have different sensor temp in each line of the file...
And the range of values in 207th column is from  4733 to 5591 (858 values).
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 05, 2014, 03:12:22 pm
I know this might be a shot in then dark, but perhaps the patent pixels are working thermistors...which means maybe they are reading the temperature of the sensor. Maybe each line is an average of the readings from those pixels? Declining values would point me to think that the resistance is falling (heating) and thus the values are mapped.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 05, 2014, 03:15:28 pm
Yes the data are from sequential frames.
I compared them with the avarage of the other pixels of each line, but it does not match.
The min and max values of the 207th value are clearly decreasing over time:
Code: [Select]
4607, 5364
4612, 5365
4609, 5366
4612, 5362
4607, 5362
4604, 5358
4605, 5357
4607, 5359
4606, 5358
4605, 5359
4602, 5356
4605, 5359
4601, 5354
4602, 5354
4606, 5351
4602, 5353
4600, 5352
4601, 5350
4600, 5352
4598, 5350
4599, 5350
4598, 5351
4598, 5350
4599, 5345
Maybe they have added a black pixel at the end of each line.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: datsthat on November 05, 2014, 03:29:58 pm
In our first post we thanked the collaborators in this forum for their professional and helpful comments and suggestions. Your response since has been even more impressive. We are grateful.
 
Thermal Gradient:  We have been able to reproduce the thermal gradient effect that several people have reported.  We are now working on a software solution and will incorporate it into an app update within the next month.

One goal for the Seek camera has been ease of operation since we are positioning it as the first general consumer thermal camera. Thus, while some have suggested a user triggered 'Secondary’ calibration, that is an extra step that could require a significant amount of user education for nonprofessionals, and lead to frustration when the gradient returns.  In that spirit we are focused on a fully automatic compensation solution in the upcoming application update.
 
Thanks again,
 
Seek Technical Team

Thank you for your quick reply!!!!!
This question is for Seek and/or anybody else...... how difficult would it be to add a "thermal outline" as an option that allows you to set the temp that you want outlined?  Thanks,
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 05, 2014, 03:32:59 pm
Pixel 207 looks suspiciously related to the horizontal banding, maybe a way to compensate for it?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on November 05, 2014, 03:41:01 pm
We could try to subtract 207th value from each line pixel and see  if the image gets better/worse...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 05, 2014, 03:52:47 pm
We could try to subtract 207th value from each line pixel and see  if the image gets better/worse...
It gets much better!
I have added 207th value/10 to each pixel of the line after subtracting the reference frame.
I think it is some sort of reference pixel for each line.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 05, 2014, 04:03:02 pm
Aha, so I might be somewhat right that those pixels are reading the heat of each line being read out. They must be the average of each line, then subtracted from each pixel to normalize the data. Each line must be read out and will get hot as it does so. They were clever enough to add thermistors to reduce the line read thermal induced noise.

@bktemp,

Try subtracting the 207th value from each pixel in the line. I don't think you would need to divide, as it should already be the average of the line.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 05, 2014, 04:09:12 pm
Ploted in fv thi 207th column and... in those 4 images  regardless it is calibration frame or not they really looks the same, but as we can see some kind of pattern distributed around three values apears  ::)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=116737)

Anyway it is great those strange horizontal noisy lines  has gone away @bktemp :-+
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 05, 2014, 04:14:59 pm
Also using the values you could even compensate for the now induced banding in the hot areas, maybe a linear correction based on the numbers. Can't play with it until after work and that's 8 hours away :(
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 05, 2014, 04:23:42 pm
I know this might be a shot in then dark, but perhaps the patent pixels are working thermistors...which means maybe they are reading the temperature of the sensor. Maybe each line is an average of the readings from those pixels? Declining values would point me to think that the resistance is falling (heating) and thus the values are mapped.

patent pixels are always 0 they don't vary. (other than the first one that tells you if it's a cal frame or not)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 05, 2014, 04:32:25 pm
In the darker lines the 207th value is higher (~5300 instead of ~4900). Therefore they have to be added to remove the dark lines. This is a bit strange, because this means the 207th value uses a different sensor, or it is an already processed value. Maybe it is even the absolute temperature: 5200/256=20.3°C
It is not possible to remove the horizontal noise completely from both hot and cold areas with the same scaling factor. To remove the dark lines completely there are probably more calculations to be done:
I do not know, but I think the data is the non linearized data from the adc. To get the absolute temperature, you have to know some constants (I think it works the same way for all bolometers):
http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php?topic=4898.msg23972#msg23972 (http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php?topic=4898.msg23972#msg23972)
Therefore subtracting or adding raw values only works for a small temperature range before it gets nonlinear.

Does anybody know if other thermal cameras simply scale/offset the sensor data the same way we do, or do they linearize the data to temperature scale before applying the palette?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 05, 2014, 04:43:20 pm
I know this might be a shot in then dark, but perhaps the patent pixels are working thermistors...which means maybe they are reading the temperature of the sensor. Maybe each line is an average of the readings from those pixels? Declining values would point me to think that the resistance is falling (heating) and thus the values are mapped.

patent pixels are always 0 they don't vary. (other than the first one that tells you if it's a cal frame or not)

Or perhaps in this case, you are reading them as zero in the image because their value isn't passed on as a value that can be individually read. Perhaps their value is found on the 207th pixel in the line, but as an average, seeing as there are 10 in a line, and the 207th pixel divided by 10 (mind you 10 patent pixels in a line) equals the approximate temperature of that line. But in this case we add the value to all the pixels in the line.

These pixels are not patent pixels. They are zone thermistors.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 05, 2014, 04:46:35 pm
@bktemp:

based on the difference with other non banding lines you could compute slope depending on the difference and the actual value for a giving pixel value.

y = m * x + b

where:
y
   is the end value we want to display.
x
   is the current value of a given sensor pixel reading.
b
   is the lower value a pixel can read.
m
   is the slope based on the difference with other lines at pixel 207 (but I don't know what value m should have yet related to the other ones. A value of 1 will be as read. > 1 will make it brighter the higher x is linearly. < 1 will make it dimmer the higher x is linearly as well.

@efahrenholz
good point may be it is that, I think there are 13 total per row.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 05, 2014, 05:15:39 pm
@miguelvp,

Double check your count, I count 10 per line.

@bktemp, your math to divide should be correct.

Also, yes, you should be scaling the math to add the 207th data to each pixel. It is probably raw summed ADC values. The summed data divided by 10 puts it in range to be a 10 bit ADC.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 05, 2014, 05:23:04 pm
@miguelvp,

Double check your count, I count 10 per line.

206 divided by 15 = 13.73
first row thermistor/patent pixel is at 10, then every 15 pixel, 25, 40, 55 ... all the way to 10+13*15 (205)

Edit so 14 total, my bad :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 05, 2014, 05:35:36 pm
The non-linearity is driving me crazy.  I was hoping that subtracting the flat paper image from the router image would remove the lines and even out some of the pixel noise.   And it did a great job for the darker areas, but the hotter areas actually really don't show the lines or the noise to begin with and subtracting out the flatpaper image increases the noise of the bright areas just as dramatically as it helped in the darker areas.

I'm really having to rethink my experience with linear CMOS or CCD sensors. 

I now appreciate the job seek has done with image quality even what's there right now in the Android app.   If somehow they can deal with the gradient, life would be even better.

I wonder if taking an equivalent of a bias frame (as short of an integration as possible with the shutter closed) and subtracting it off the real calibration (full integration time shutter closed) would allow them to "see" the gradient and then deal with it (assuming it's thermal sourced).    I guess I don't know the nature of the extreme noise that veils the images.   If it's read noise dominated, then that strategy would work.   If it's thermal/time based dominated then not so much.   They could do it by taking 2 calibration frames while the shutter is closed, one super short integration, one normal integration.   The user would never notice it.

This is my first foray into thermal and I've really enjoyed expanding my horizons here...I agree with Seek, this is an excellent and well behaved forum, concentrating on solving problems rather than threatening lawsuits for small problems.

Rick

In the darker lines the 207th value is higher (~5300 instead of ~4900). Therefore they have to be added to remove the dark lines. This is a bit strange, because this means the 207th value uses a different sensor, or it is an already processed value. Maybe it is even the absolute temperature: 5200/256=20.3°C
It is not possible to remove the horizontal noise completely from both hot and cold areas with the same scaling factor. To remove the dark lines completely there are probably more calculations to be done:
I do not know, but I think the data is the non linearized data from the adc. To get the absolute temperature, you have to know some constants (I think it works the same way for all bolometers):
http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php?topic=4898.msg23972#msg23972 (http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php?topic=4898.msg23972#msg23972)
Therefore subtracting or adding raw values only works for a small temperature range before it gets nonlinear.

Does anybody know if other thermal cameras simply scale/offset the sensor data the same way we do, or do they linearize the data to temperature scale before applying the palette?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 05, 2014, 05:35:58 pm
We could try to subtract 207th value from each line pixel and see  if the image gets better/worse...
It gets much better!
I have added 207th value/10 to each pixel of the line after subtracting the reference frame.
I think it is some sort of reference pixel for each line.

@Miguelvp, sorry yes I am wrong, but I don't see 13 per line. I am referencing by his photo. I see 10 in first annd last line, and trying to randomly count in between I get 11? Is this a cropped image?

Never mind I see the 14 per line. I was counting per column.

Technically you should be dividing by the number of thermistors counted on each line, which seems to vary.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 05, 2014, 05:55:12 pm
@rickastro

The problem is measuring temperature isn't linear. As it gets warmer, the resistance decreases but not linear to the temperature. One degree change at low temperature could make a change of 100 on the ADC, while at high temperature it could be only 30 or less. That's why its hard to get accurate readings at high temperature, as the resolution drops.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 05, 2014, 06:05:28 pm
I have to agree with Rick, this thread is very interesting and is positive towards the product that SEEK Thermal have produced. A very positive attitude which is great to see these days.  I am very impressed with the clever work that is being done on the date that comes out of the SEEK. Though I understand little of it I appreciate the effort that is being made by all who are working to better understand the product and increases its usefullness for us all.

Thanks to SEEK thermal for making the camera and to those in this thread who have enlightened us on the hardware and data used in the product.

In a perfect world I would hope that SEEK can release information on the data stream and even the hardware architecture but they do need to protect their investment.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 05, 2014, 06:08:51 pm
Technically you should be dividing by the number of thermistors counted on each line, which seems to vary.

13 sensors rows:
row 4 and every 15 row from there.
row 8 and every 15 row from there.
row 12 and every 15 row from there.

The rest are all 14 count

But on the 13 count they could be using column 208 instead, might be there for a reason after all (other than making the row even count)

It doesn't matter much, seems like 207 helps clean up the image as suspected :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 05, 2014, 06:20:51 pm
As it gets warmer, the resistance decreases but not linear to the temperature. One degree change at low temperature could make a change of 100 on the ADC, while at high temperature it could be only 30 or less. That's why its hard to get accurate readings at high temperature, as the resolution drops.
It is probably the reverse: I did some rough estimates with some old thermal images from a different camera using the min/max values on the thermal images and the min/max values of the raw data. The temperature to raw data conversion is more like exponential, higher temperatures have therefore a higher resolution. This matches the formula using ln() to calculate the temperature from the other forum I have posted.

I made a small animated gif out of several frames. The noise seems to be mostly static. It should be quite easy to remove it with a bit of additional processing. Furthermore there are a few pixels (always 2 adjacent) that seem to change constantly without any reference to the normal image. Maybe they contain other information?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 05, 2014, 06:48:06 pm
I was hoping that subtracting the flat paper image from the router image would remove the lines and even out some of the pixel noise.
Probably cats and human face are beter thermal objects than those router images  ;)

Without knowledge of protocols used it is of course difficult reverse something, but it has to be done since I do not expect that Seek Thermal will add support for contures from visual cameras to those thermal images.
While it doesn't cost too much hours of coding it is worth to crack it and have own source code and user interface front end of thermal camera, than only plug Seek Thermal or other device with decent quality sensor :-/O
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 05, 2014, 06:51:43 pm
As it gets warmer, the resistance decreases but not linear to the temperature. One degree change at low temperature could make a change of 100 on the ADC, while at high temperature it could be only 30 or less. That's why its hard to get accurate readings at high temperature, as the resolution drops.
It is probably the reverse: I did some rough estimates with some old thermal images from a different camera using the min/max values on the thermal images and the min/max values of the raw data. The temperature to raw data conversion is more like exponential, higher temperatures have therefore a higher resolution. This matches the formula using ln() to calculate the temperature from the other forum I have posted.

I made a small animated gif out of several frames. The noise seems to be mostly static. It should be quite easy to remove it with a bit of additional processing. Furthermore there are a few pixels (always 2 adjacent) that seem to change constantly without any reference to the normal image. Maybe they contain other information?

Not sure if those are bright pixels or subtracted darker pixels from the calibration frame.   Regardless, you should be able to do a bad pixel map of the patent pixels and those and median them out.

Also if you are taking images of static objects, you could take many frames and move the camera slightly between frames (dithering) and then stack the images using a sigma reject type of combination (after alignment of the subject) do all but eliminate the noise.   This can also give you a "superresolution" if you align and combine higher res resampled iamges.       The lower noise will allow more sharpening as well.

Not practical for many objects, but an interesting exercise nonetheless.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 05, 2014, 06:52:31 pm
We could try to subtract 207th value from each line pixel and see  if the image gets better/worse...
It gets much better!
I have added 207th value/10 to each pixel of the line after subtracting the reference frame.
I think it is some sort of reference pixel for each line.

Adding them after being divided by 10 would give you the same relative image as just adding it without dividing by 10 (other than when you get over 2^16 but that can be fixed by reducing our introduced 0x8000=32768 d offset, say to 24K instead of 32K leaving 8K (8192d) on the table).

The division just takes away some precision.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 05, 2014, 07:12:00 pm
As it gets warmer, the resistance decreases but not linear to the temperature. One degree change at low temperature could make a change of 100 on the ADC, while at high temperature it could be only 30 or less. That's why its hard to get accurate readings at high temperature, as the resolution drops.
It is probably the reverse: I did some rough estimates with some old thermal images from a different camera using the min/max values on the thermal images and the min/max values of the raw data. The temperature to raw data conversion is more like exponential, higher temperatures have therefore a higher resolution. This matches the formula using ln() to calculate the temperature from the other forum I have posted.

I made a small animated gif out of several frames. The noise seems to be mostly static. It should be quite easy to remove it with a bit of additional processing. Furthermore there are a few pixels (always 2 adjacent) that seem to change constantly without any reference to the normal image. Maybe they contain other information?

Not sure if those are bright pixels or subtracted darker pixels from the calibration frame.   Regardless, you should be able to do a bad pixel map of the patent pixels and those and median them out.

Also if you are taking images of static objects, you could take many frames and move the camera slightly between frames (dithering) and then stack the images using a sigma reject type of combination (after alignment of the subject) do all but eliminate the noise.   This can also give you a "superresolution" if you align and combine higher res resampled iamges.       The lower noise will allow more sharpening as well.

Not practical for many objects, but an interesting exercise nonetheless.

Another way to kill the noise and all the dirty pixels would be to first kill the line read noise with the data in 207, then build a loop that scans each pixels and compares it to its 4 neighbors. So find the average of x+1,x-1,y+1,y-1, divide that in to a variable. Subtract value of current pixel from the variable hosting the average, flip the sign so its positive, and replace the pixels value with the average if it is over or under the average by 10 (or however agressive you choose it to be.)

This essentially is a blurring algorithm but more selective. So you should be able to effectively dissolve dirty pixels and the thermistor pixels. Set difference low enough and it might even knock out all the noise.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 05, 2014, 07:16:03 pm
Adding them after being divided by 10 would give you the same relative image as just adding it without dividing by 10 (other than when you get over 2^16 but that can be fixed by reducing our introduced 0x8000=32768 d offset, say to 24K instead of 32K leaving 8K (8192d) on the table).

The division just takes away some precision.
If I do not divide by 10, the black line get white and white lines gets black. I need to scale the values down to reduce theie effect just so to compensation the lines in the original image.

I am now playing with noise reduction of the static noise: I have avaraged a few frames, and try to subtract this from all frames. This does not work well. The noise seems to be no offset than rather gain errors of each pixel. Next I am going to use the generated noise map to scale each pixel independently.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on November 05, 2014, 07:23:23 pm
... build a loop that scans each pixels and compares it to its 4 neighbors. So find the average of x+1,x-1,y+1,y-1, divide that in to a variable. Subtract value of current pixel from the variable hosting the average, flip the sign so its positive, and replace the pixels value with the average if it is over or under the average by 10 (or however agressive you choose it to be.)

Already done that:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg538423/?topicseen#msg538423 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg538423/?topicseen#msg538423)

I went a step futher by checking which pair (horizontal or vertical) has smallest difference in color.
(This is to keep details on vertical and horizontal edges)
The average value of this pair is the new pixel value.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 05, 2014, 07:24:21 pm
Bktemp, try what frenky did. Just cut and paste his code in, that should put the nail on this. Removing the banding first, then run the code frenky put up. Post an image and let us see how much better this sensor looks
 
You can't average out noise if it doesn't change on each frame. This works traditionally on astrophotography because the noise changes on each frame, so the real data can get averaged in. In our case, we have to do a neighbor comparison to find the bad pixels give them the average of their neighbors.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 05, 2014, 07:32:20 pm
... build a loop that scans each pixels and compares it to its 4 neighbors. So find the average of x+1,x-1,y+1,y-1, divide that in to a variable. Subtract value of current pixel from the variable hosting the average, flip the sign so its positive, and replace the pixels value with the average if it is over or under the average by 10 (or however agressive you choose it to be.)

Already done that:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg538423/?topicseen#msg538423 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg538423/?topicseen#msg538423)

I went a step futher by checking which pair (horizontal or vertical) has smallest difference in color.
(This is to keep details on vertical and horizontal edges)
The average value of this pair is the new pixel value.

Yeah, and for targeting just the thermistors we already did that using as many orthogonal neighbors as available:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg538322/#msg538322 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg538322/#msg538322)

But frenky's cleans the inside one as well as minor non responsive pixels. So I adapted my code to only clean up the top/bottom/left edges and adapted his code to clean the inside ones, instead of just targeting the patent/thermistor pixels.



Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 05, 2014, 07:33:14 pm
Bktemp, try what I said. You can't average out noise if it doesn't change on each frame. This works traditionally on astrophotography because the noise changes on each frame, so the real data can get averaged in. In our case, we have to do a neighbor comparison to find the bad pixels give them the average of their neighbors.

That's true in practical terms here, and also in astrophotography where some fixed type of noise can still remain even after calibration.   That's why some guiding software bumps the tracking a few pixels in between each image to allow averaging (or better yet statistical Sigma rejection).

Like I said, it's probably of less consequence here for a typically handheld device that needs higher refresh speeds.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 05, 2014, 07:51:18 pm
Bktemp, try what frenky did. Just cut and paste his code in, that should put the nail on this. Removing the banding first, then run the code frenky put up. Post an image and let us see how much better this sensor looks
 
You can't average out noise if it doesn't change on each frame. This works traditionally on astrophotography because the noise changes on each frame, so the real data can get averaged in. In our case, we have to do a neighbor comparison to find the bad pixels give them the average of their neighbors.
I do not try to avarage it out. I am trying to generate a black level reference image and subtract it from all images. This works well, as long as there are no big thermal differences. The image is almost noise free, without replacing any pixels. The nonlinearity is the main problem. I can tweak the gain to compensate either hot or cold areas, but not both.

The cold background is almost noise free, but the hot areas have now inverse noise. frenky's noise reduction will be the next step to remove the dead pixels.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 05, 2014, 08:41:06 pm
@bktemp,

I'm not sure I am following you very well. It truthfully looks like the image noise was inverted completely. I can see black pixels in the background that suggest this.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 05, 2014, 09:37:33 pm
Enough image processing for today. The results:
- The 207th value of each line can be used to compensate the horizontal noise, but there is some linearization needed before this works for a wide temperature range
- It is possible to remove the static noise without loosing details by subtracting a dark noise frame, but same problem as before: linearization is needed to be able to simply subtract data
Maybe somebody with more in depth knowledge of thermal imaging cameras can use this to write some useable code that works without manual adjustments for each frame.

The processing steps:
From left to right:
- input data
- reference frame subtracted
- black pixels removed
- horizontal bars compensated
- avaraged noise image subtracted (does not work very well except for background, therefore not used for further processing)
- avaraged noise image subtracted, but with some more tweaking. It should be much better with a true image of a flat surface or using a larger number of reference frames.
- frenky's filter applied
- another noise reduction filter (maybe a bit too strong)
- palette applied
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 05, 2014, 09:54:45 pm
Not sure if those are bright pixels or subtracted darker pixels from the calibration frame.   Regardless, you should be able to do a bad pixel map of the patent pixels and those and median them out.
Why do you suggest to use median for those 2143 hexagon sensor pattern pixels?
I've used average but made it in tricky way, so it do not include dead looking black ones if any  ;)
Of course made sparse matrix of those hexagon patterns, so only 2143 iters needed to find those sensor pixels and fill them with desired color.

If someone plays with OpenCV this code nicely opens 16bit grayscale PNG images 8)
Code: [Select]
Mat img = imread(fin, CV_LOAD_IMAGE_GRAYSCALE| CV_LOAD_IMAGE_ANYDEPTH );
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 05, 2014, 10:00:25 pm
@bktemp

That image looks good up to right before that heavy filter you applied. I'm curious, are these images already averages of 5 frames or are they individual frames? If so the noise could be filtered with frame stacking, but so far it looks really good!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 05, 2014, 10:11:23 pm
The processing steps:
...
- reference frame subtracted
- black pixels removed
...
Just thinking of FFT on reference frame and some kind of averaging aproximation before using this calibration data.

I think, removal/updating those hexagon sensor black pixels should be the first step before any other operations with sensor data regardless it is calibration frame or image data  ::)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 05, 2014, 10:17:24 pm
@bktemp

That image looks good up to right before that heavy filter you applied.
It was this filter:
http://www.ipol.im/pub/art/2011/bcm_nlm/ (http://www.ipol.im/pub/art/2011/bcm_nlm/)
It is quite slow, but does amazing work. But it is not really suited for heavy noise. If the strength is too high, it will smooth the image, if it is too low, it will simply keep the noise without any processing.

Quote
I'm curious, are these images already averages of 5 frames or are they individual frames? If so the noise could be filtered with frame stacking, but so far it looks really good!
I have used the recorded USB data from marshallh:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg533801/#msg533801 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg533801/#msg533801)
Therefore they are the nearest raw data you can get without modifying the firmware. From mike's video the camera seems to be avaraging frames internally.
But additional avaraging should work, especially when using images processes with multiple reference frames. After each reference frame, the noise seems to change a little bit.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on November 05, 2014, 10:20:39 pm
@eneuro:
And after that line tuning with pixel 207 should be done on both frames before subtracting cal frame from image frame.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fry-kun on November 05, 2014, 10:37:09 pm
Funny you should ask, I've been poking at this for a couple of days. I've written a Python program which uses PyUSB to capture calibration and Image Frames from the Seek Imager.

Awesome, gave it a quick shot. A few notes for reference (in case others want to play with it):
* works with PyUSB 1.0.0 beta2. Fedora 20 comes with 1.0.0 alpha3 which doesn't work
* line 18 "import Image" is more portable as "from PIL import Image" (didn't work for me until I changed that ;)

Got a few simple images so far, yay!
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: ricksastro on November 05, 2014, 11:31:13 pm
Not sure if those are bright pixels or subtracted darker pixels from the calibration frame.   Regardless, you should be able to do a bad pixel map of the patent pixels and those and median them out.
Why do you suggest to use median for those 2143 hexagon sensor pattern pixels?
I used the term generically in reference to the neighbor pixel method presented here.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 06, 2014, 07:51:39 am
@frenky
Just computed those sensor hexagon pattern pixels count based on created before sparse matrix of those black pixels:
Quote
seek_thermal_test: Seek Thermal sensor hexagon pattern (black) pixel count in row: 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14 13 14 14 14 13 14 14
Probably it could be better apply this line tunning even before updating those hexagon pattern black pixels, while processing its neighbor with not corrected pixels in rows up and down will introduce incorrect values to processed row pattern pixels inside.

So, the main concern now is to find the best way to apply those corrections from 207th column.

Anyway looking for good description of such  microbolometer with zone thermistors, but not too much about it found so far only a few patents and history of infared detectors:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolometer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolometer)

patent: Use of vanadium oxide in microbolometer sensors (http://www.google.co.ke/patents/USRE36615)

pdf: History-of-infrared-detectors (http://www.antonirogalski.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/History-of-infrared-detectors.pdf)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 06, 2014, 08:07:38 am
Probably it could be better apply this line tunning even before updating those hexagon pattern black pixels, while processing its neighbor with not corrected pixels in rows up and down will introduce incorrect values to processed row pattern pixels inside.
It makes sense. I have already done that in my example unintentionally, by doing all subtractions at one place.
Removing the hexagon pattern should be the last step before applying the noise filter.

By the way, the easiest way to go through all hexagon pattern pixels:
Code: [Select]
x = 10;     // first black pixel is at x=10
for (y=0; y<156; y++)
{   for (; x<206; x+=15)
    {   ...
    }
    x-=208+8;
    if (x<0)
        x+=15;
}
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on November 06, 2014, 09:22:43 am
I agree that line tuning should go before updating those hexagon pattern black pixels.

@bktemp
Very nice code for locating hexagon pixels.

@all:
Btw great work guys... ;)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 06, 2014, 02:08:23 pm
By the way, the easiest way to go through all hexagon pattern pixels:
Yep, but anyway we need sensor hexagon pattern pixels matrix, for example when dealing with rows stats, so wrote it once and now it was easy too in OpenCV to generate some row stats from router calibration and image frames using this  ;)
Code: [Select]
Mat hex= seek_thermal_black_dots_matrix();
...
      for(i=0; i<h; i+=k ) { // i
        val0= cor.at<ushort>(i, n); // 207th column             
        sum= 0;
        m= 0;
        for(j=0; j<n; j++ ) {
                val= cor.at<ushort>(i,j);

                if(  hex.at<uchar>(i,j)>0 ) {
                        // Skip hexagon pattern pixel
                } else {
                        sum+= val;
                        m++;
                }
        }
        // Non zero pixels average
        if(m>0 ) {
                avg= sum/m;
        } else {
                avg= 0;
        }
        // Stats
        fprintf(f,"%03u %0.3f %0.3f %03u %03u \n",
                        (i+1), avg, val0, m, n );

        } // i
With above code I've got such nice stats of each row:
Code: [Select]
row    avg   207th    count   width
001 7947.229 5533.000 192 206
002 8029.047 5188.000 192 206
....
154 8198.523 5180.000 193 206
155 7953.286 4873.000 192 206
156 7892.047 5184.000 192 206
When we plot such pixels row averages vs this additional 207th column we get something like this for router raw data (router_image1c.png and router_image2i.png) provided earlier by @ricksastro:
(http://s5.postimg.org/ufi05fyoz/sts_cor.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ufi05fyoz/)

It is time to apply this additional 207th column data somehow with this plot in mind  :-/O

Note: It will be interesting do the same for those two @ricksastro thermal frames of flat surface (flatpaper_image1c.png and flatpaper_image2i.png).
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 06, 2014, 04:01:08 pm
@bktemp,

Do you have a git with your source code? There's quite  bit of fragmented source code on the topic now, perhaps someone could host it with all the updated source. Maybe some of us could work on an interface, tools, palettes etc
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on November 06, 2014, 04:10:08 pm
I was testing today this line tuning with 207th values.
I works great on low temp background, but on higher temp areas it adds light stripes.
So it probably should only be applied to the low temp areas...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 06, 2014, 04:11:26 pm
You just need to find the magic number or range to do a nice ramp to/from
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 06, 2014, 04:36:46 pm
I was testing today this line tuning with 207th values.
I works great on low temp background, but on higher temp areas it adds light stripes.
So it probably should only be applied to the low temp areas...
If you increase the gain applied to the 207th value it works for hot areas, but then it leaves stripes on dark areas.
When trying to remove the static noise you will get the same problem.
I have tried to use the data value to modify the gain before adding the 207th value:
pixel=pixel + (pixel+offset)/gain * 207th value
This works a bit betten than just adding 207th value / gain, but it is still not good enough to be useable.
Therefore I would convert the data to linear temperature scale before any further processing, but I have no idea how to do it.

@efahrenholz
My code is bodged together from several other programs. I just wanted to play a little bit with the raw data and did not care about good coding practices.
Better use the version from sgstair and add the dark line compensation there. He has written a much better code.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 06, 2014, 05:21:55 pm
Therefore I would convert the data to linear temperature scale before any further processing, but I have no idea how to do it.
I have some idea how to tweak those temperatures, but no physical device for the moment  :-/O
If someone have IR thermometer and ambient temperature thermometer than usual flatiron could be heated in quite cold room (eg. 0*C 10*C 20*C 30*C) to quite high temperature, than disconnect from mains and one could make series of thermal sensor raw data frames and record also iron temperature measured by IR laser thermometer.
So, experiment is easy, and flatiron is good heat source so nice suspect to watch, for example put close to it another metal part, for example copper PCB template to see how is heated from distance througth air  8)

Make scan of USB sensor frame with shutter (calibration frame -mark this image with -cal- in its name), than quickly make normal image frame (name it with -img-) and read iron temperature-probably even multimeter sensor could be fine to estimate this temperature and get absolute value.
Wait 5 minutes, take another two shots read temperature, and so on-if automated each 1 minute delays could be better to see any gradients efects if any too.
Probbaly the easiest way to do it is of course add delays to our custom software and do all those measurements automatically,
just by connecting I2C thermometer to PC  >:D
But ok, even using manual one if making those frames shots will be programmed, than GMT clock could be used and timestamps added to each image, so one could easy control only multimeter/thermometer and log iron temperature changes in time.
Than those manual measurements could be approximated (I can do it for you in maxima) in time and fusion with PC clock time made to ensure we have estimate absolute iron temperatures, when those frames were taken.
Additionaly in the same way ambient tempartaure close to Seek Thermal sensor could be tracked and added, but the most important is to have real temperature sensor visible )eg. in the middle of the flatiron, so it could be easy to tweak those pixel data close to its position on thermal image.
With automated software and OpenCV it is easy to write those USB raw sensor data images 208x156 as 16bit grayscale PNG to  :-/O them and test different image processing aproaches by this forum members, which do not have this cam, but could test those thermal images and comment how different alghorithms affects output images.
Simply, some kind of test images could be created, so people could use the same raw sensor data and than outputs each of them creates and attaches there in this forum thread could be easy to verify and it could be possible to compare between different implementations on different machines (Windows,Android, Linux, etc.).

So, who will sacrifice 15 minutes and flatiron for the  Apollo 11: Frase_de_Neil_Armstrong  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Frase_de_Neil_Armstrong.ogg)  make those thermal shots with tiimestamps, zip with README text file with manual readings from iron temperature and provide link to do homework by other EEVBlog members :-DD


Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 06, 2014, 05:56:46 pm
Last week I forgot to ask a co-worker for the IR thermometer but I didn't this week, he forgot 2 days in a row, hopefully he remembers today or tomorrow :)

But I have my own set of experiments. I wan't to see how accurate the central spot for the Seek is both at boot time and after being on for a while.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 06, 2014, 06:18:30 pm
I wan't to see how accurate the central spot for the Seek is both at boot time and after being on for a while.
It could be interesting another teardown of Seek Thermal for @mikeselectricstuff where he could test how accurate are those temperature spots shown in Android app in comparision to real temperature measurement made on heated object-for example using classic multimeter thermometer and maybe additionally IR thermometer with lase pointer.
I didn't saw such vblog so far, so it could be interesting to see what is scientific quality of temperature this Android app shows on customers screens  :o
Do they (Seek Thermal) provide some kind of datascheet with expected spots temperature measurement accuracy?
Is it even available any official Seek Thermal manual with such technical information?

Nope, google doesn't provide any link to manual  ???
Google play: Seek Thermal (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal&hl=en) shows latest software version:
Code: [Select]
October 30, 2014
Size
7.6M
Installs
1,000 - 5,000
Current Version
1.4.0.2
Requires Android
4.3 and up
Maybe will try download it later under Android and see if maybe inside is Seek Thermal users manual?  :-//

No, even on its product page no way to find any manual  |O

This is all technical specs availabe on this page Seek Thermal Camera - ANDROID (http://obtain.thermal.com/product-p/uw-aaa.htm) ?  ???
Code: [Select]
Technical Specs:
    mUSB Thermal Camera for Android devices
    Works on most Android devices running 4.3 or higher that support USB on the go. See Device List for Compatibility
    True Thermal Sensor
    206 x 156 Array
    32,136 Thermal Pixels
    12um Pixel Pitch
    Vanadium Oxide Microbolometer
    Chalcogenide Lens
    36° Field of View
    Magnesium Housing
    Long Wave Infrared 7.2 - 13 Microns
    -40C to 330C Detection
    < 9Hz
    Includes Protective Carrying Case
    Model: UW-AAA
Very interesting is this < 9 Hz output frequency - does it mean it could be 1 Hz after some app updates?  :-DD
Only temperature range provided: -40C to 330C Detection
It is  :palm:
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 06, 2014, 06:26:22 pm
The Seek website has a glaring absence of any specs on accuracy or NETD - if there's no spec, people can't complain it doesn't meet it!

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 06, 2014, 08:40:23 pm
The software isn't done yet, so the accuracy can't be called. They still have image quality issues to iron out, before they can even make any claims.

@bktemp,

In regards to the line noise reduction, you might try an argument that evaluates the pixel value first. Rather than a hard cut off line (where in hot zones it simply ignores the correction), try an expression that reduces the correction amount added the higher the pixel value is.

So basically take the min sensor value, subtract that from the current pixel. This gives us an effective range of 0 to %100. Then take that value and find what percent it is of max value. Lets call it pixelval. Then:

(pixelval*100)/(maxvalue-minvalue) = pixelval

Maxval-minval gives us the max in the range starting from zero. This equation gives us the percentage in the range we are at. Then take the value found in 207, divide it by 13 or 14 and multiply the difference of the value found above and 100. Basically:

Adjustmentval=((line207val/13) * (100-pixelval)) / 100

This gives you the number to add to the the original value.

So pixel(x,y)+adjustmentval = pixel(x,y).

This is going off a perfect linear scale. As the pixel value goes up, the correction value goes down. I don't know what the rate of change is as the pixel gets hotter, so the scaling might need a bit of tweaking... Not my best math, but I don't know how else to say it.


Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 06, 2014, 10:15:50 pm
There are 2 different scenes.   One is taken against flat notebook paper (flatpaper) at ambient 73F. One is an image of my router (router).
What about ambient temperature when you made those router images?
Can we assume it was the same and around 73*F ~ 23*C ?

It is interesting that when computed average of this 207th additional columns in calibration and image frame from those files you provided there with nice 16bit grayscale thermal router imaginery:
http://www.ricksastro.com/temp/seekraw/router_image1c.png (http://www.ricksastro.com/temp/seekraw/router_image1c.png)
http://www.ricksastro.com/temp/seekraw/router_image2i.png (http://www.ricksastro.com/temp/seekraw/router_image2i.png)
I've got average value 5078.125, then by strange conversion in maxima using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit)  conversion to Celcius I've got around 26, from 79, which is close to ambient 73*F, and is it possible inside Seek Thermal camera could be 26*C ~ 79*F ?  :o
Code: [Select]
(%i56) max: 2^14;
(%o56)                               16384
(%i54) tf: 5078.125/max*256;
(%o54)                           79.345703125
(%i55) cel(79.345703125);
(%o55)                         26.30316840277778
This means +3*C ~ +6*F difference between room ambient temperature and maybe those sensor zone thermistors formed in hexagon pattern "black pixels" ?  :phew:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=116969)

It is interesting that those temperatures >23*C computed from this additional 207th column for each sensor raw image data (which are similar for calibration and image frame, so taken its average for each row) are above estimated room ambient temperature 22.7*C ~ 73*C , which could make sense, while we got temperatures from sensor greater than ambient temperature :-DMM

BTW: Can someone verify this gueses based on a few basic measurements as described a few posts above?
Even one set of data with measured object temperature at given room ambient temperature (thermal camera should be there for longer time) and those calibration and image frame, could help solve this interesting temperature puzzle...

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 06, 2014, 10:16:50 pm
@efahrenholz
That is basically the same as I did yesterday, except I did use the pixel values without the min/max scaling.
Your idea works great for some frames, but others fail completely. I think the scaling makes it worse without manual adjustments for each frame: If one frame has a hot or cold pixel somewhere, it changes the min/max value and therefore changes the gain applied to the 207th value. If you look at the animated gif I have made yesterday, you can see a few pixels that change wildly and are sometimes even the hottest/coldest pixel:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg544366/#msg544366 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg544366/#msg544366)
Therefore I would go in the other direction and use the absolute values. Then the noise does not effect the horizontal line compensation.

The attached graph shows the raw value to temperature (in °C) convertion for a different thermal imaging camera. Lets assume the Seek has a similar curve: As you can see the sensitivity increases with temperature. This would explain why the compensation creates dark lines in hot areas: The hot area has an increased value compared to the lower sensitivity of the compensation applied.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 06, 2014, 10:39:33 pm
@bktemp, the min/max value should be constant. The frame max and min values shouldn't be considered as they can change the calculated gain on individual pixels per frame. We need to find the lowest and highest reported values the sensor can display. I hope that clarifies my math.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: KK on November 07, 2014, 04:34:46 am
Has anyone received the iPhone version of the camera yet? The app is out so that is no longer an issue.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 07, 2014, 09:03:00 am
@bktemp, the min/max value should be constant. The frame max and min values shouldn't be considered as they can change the calculated gain on individual pixels per frame. We need to find the lowest and highest reported values the sensor can display. I hope that clarifies my math.
Ok, now I've got it. But that should not change much. Using the maximum and minimum values that can appear in the data you basically get the same as I have already used: pixel=pixel + (pixel+offset)/gain * 207th value
Instead of alculating the gain from min/max I have used offset and gain values. I have tried different values and subtraction pixel from offset instead of adding it. It was better than without the gain compensation, but not good enough.

Now I have tried using pixel=sqrt(pixel) as a coarse approach for linearization. The results look a bit better, but still far away from beeing perfect. The intensity of the remaining horizontal stripes change after each calibration frame. Maybe the linearization is needed before subtracting the reference frame.
By subtracting the shutter frame you lose the absolute temperature information and only get the difference to shutter temperature. Therefore you need to add the shutter temperature again (maybe using avarage value of calibration frame?) Or is some other temperature information available?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 07, 2014, 10:24:43 am
Has anyone received the iPhone version of the camera yet? The app is out so that is no longer an issue.
There claim that they are still having issues with Apple hardware approval
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Monkeh on November 07, 2014, 10:51:10 am
Has anyone received the iPhone version of the camera yet? The app is out so that is no longer an issue.
There claim that they are still having issues with Apple hardware approval

Flir bribe bigger.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 07, 2014, 11:18:37 am
@bktemp,

Bummer well it was worth a go. It seems reverse engineering this puppy is not so simple.

When you say shutter frame, do you mean that you have the option to actually ignore flat field events? When I tried sgstairs source the shutter still clicked away, so I assumed it was impossible to stop this even from happening. Like its handled by the firmware. Hmmm I wonder if anyone has messed with that chip yet...mike?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on November 07, 2014, 11:44:43 am
Has anyone received the iPhone version of the camera yet? The app is out so that is no longer an issue.
There claim that they are still having issues with Apple hardware approval

Flir bribe bigger.

 :clap:
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 07, 2014, 11:53:53 am
The intensity of the remaining horizontal stripes change after each calibration frame.
How much does it change -more than 10% per minute? Did you tried to estimate this?

However, after watching this exellent @mikeselectricstuff Flir E4 teardown http://youtu.be/NtqUE67BUDI (http://youtu.be/NtqUE67BUDI)   and reading those related posts to this queensu: enhancement: extract binary data from FLIR radiometric jpg (http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php/topic,4898.135.html) where people did amazing approach applying temperature info using their own scripts and utilities, I hope Seek Thermal makes all this complicated thermal calculations on its onboard PCB bulky MPU and maybe sends via USB preprocessed thermal information to minimize proccessing effort on customers devices, while they want this thing running on diffrent platforms.

So, I will deal in a very different way with those Seek calibration and image frames and i'd like implement something like this below for the moment and apply 16bit Iron LUT on limited output temperature ranges.
(http://s5.postimg.org/5l3k8hk6b/stip_by_eneuro.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5l3k8hk6b/)
Inspiration for this attempt is mechanical construction of Flir E4 shown by @mikeselectricstuff in his teardown video linked above.
Starting from thermal scene with objects heat source we have in Flir E4 in a IR waves path  lenses via shutter hole and sensor shown below.
Seek Thermal shutter thermal design looks very crappy in comparision to this built in Flir E4  :o
Everythong mounted in solid metal case with temperarture sensor sensing its temperature. When @mikeselectricstuff frozen this temperature sensor on PCB Flir's output ended with completelly blanked display while this temp has gone below its limits  8)  :-DD
Even sensor looks like is thermally connected with this solid metal (not plastic) case and shutter nicelly hidden in its case, while in Seek design it is simply floating in air inside PCB cover-I do not like it at all  ???

BTW: In my recent designs I've choosen now this MLX90620 Series Wide (60x15) 16 x 4 Array 3 V 9 mA Thermal Array Sensor - TO-39 (http://www.melexis.com/Asset/Datasheet-IR-thermometer-16X4-sensor-array-MLX90620-DownloadLink-6099.aspx) while it has everything I need and is far below $100 for higher volume.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117095)
16x4 pixel thermal imager (http://www.melexis.com/Asset/Product-Flyer-MLX90621-DownloadLink-6380.aspx)
Its +/-1*C accuracy in temp range 0*C-50*C and easy I2C interface make this device much more interesting for me in a few projects than Seek Thermal dongle without any user manuals and only few lines of text as datasheet  :palm:
I use OpenCV for MLX90620 post processing, so simply it is hobby attempt to see how Seek image processing would look like based on sensor USB raw 16bit data people there were able to capture-for the moment I do not implement any Linux low level drivers like for example v4l2 used with classic visual light cameras.
Seek Thermal investment should be to create such Linux drivers if they want to compete on thermal imaging market since there are many small PCb computers running ARM Linux like eg. BeagleBone I'm involved now in my projects.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: bktemp on November 07, 2014, 02:01:31 pm
When you say shutter frame, do you mean that you have the option to actually ignore flat field events? When I tried sgstairs source the shutter still clicked away, so I assumed it was impossible to stop this even from happening. Like its handled by the firmware. Hmmm I wonder if anyone has messed with that chip yet...mike?
Since I do not own a Seek camera, my only source of Seek raw data is the captured USB traffic from marshallh. It contains 75 image frames, 7 shutter frames and 6 preshutter frames.
I have no idea what kind of preprocessing is already done inside the Seek camera. Since the Seek app only gets the same data, all information including the absolute temperature must be in there somewhere.

The intensity of the remaining horizontal stripes change after each calibration frame.
How much does it change -more than 10% per minute? Did you tried to estimate this?
Sine the only Seek raw data I have to work with contain only 87 frames, I can't give an absolute number. I did noticed some changes after the shutter frames. Not big, but noticeable. Maybe I am wrong and it is only the changing noise pattern that adds a different pattern to the stripes.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 07, 2014, 03:31:49 pm
@bktemp,

Bummer well it was worth a go. It seems reverse engineering this puppy is not so simple.

When you say shutter frame, do you mean that you have the option to actually ignore flat field events? When I tried sgstairs source the shutter still clicked away, so I assumed it was impossible to stop this even from happening. Like its handled by the firmware. Hmmm I wonder if anyone has messed with that chip yet...mike?

There is a bit that tells you if it's a calibration frame or flat field event or not, you can ignore them but they are still going to happen since that is in control of the firmware.

Maybe there is some USB command that can be used to prevent it but as of now you can't prevent them from happening.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 07, 2014, 04:16:49 pm
@bktemp,

Bummer well it was worth a go. It seems reverse engineering this puppy is not so simple.

When you say shutter frame, do you mean that you have the option to actually ignore flat field events? When I tried sgstairs source the shutter still clicked away, so I assumed it was impossible to stop this even from happening. Like its handled by the firmware. Hmmm I wonder if anyone has messed with that chip yet...mike?

There is a bit that tells you if it's a calibration frame or flat field event or not, you can ignore them but they are still going to happen since that is in control of the firmware.

Maybe there is some USB command that can be used to prevent it but as of now you can't prevent them from happening.

I see, so it isn't automatically subtracting flatfield images out of the frames. That's up to post processing. Its just sending the calibration frame up and indicating it in the first dark pixel what type of frame it is.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 07, 2014, 04:22:57 pm
That's correct, it's up to you to use it, throw it away or compare it to previous flat fields

Edit: by comparing to previous flat fields I mean you can make a program that shows if the flat field calibration frame shows the gradient drift.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 07, 2014, 05:07:48 pm
Interesting thing...as I thin I might know the source of my particular imagers gradient. Its the shutter, but its a hot shutter. My gradient comes from the side the shutter comes from, so I took a magnet and slowly moved it towards the direction to pull the shutter in. The shutter enters the field of view in the same corner the gradient appears from. I measured the temperature of the shutter when forced shut at around 108 after the seek has been running awhile.

The sensor is getting side radiation leaking from the shutter. A heat source is too close to the sensor and its showing. How the heck is the shutter getting so hot? Is it actually resting against the sensor?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 07, 2014, 05:46:47 pm
The gradient is formed by a cold spot from where the shutter enters the chamber.

The chamber gets hotter over time and that might change the temperature of the shutter, but the cold coming from where the shutter enters seems to be the reason we are seeing that gradient.

I don't think it's the flag itself and I haven't looked if the gradient exists using the raw images yet since I haven't tried eliminating the banding just yet.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 07, 2014, 06:14:03 pm
I have written to SEEK asking for their assistance with my development of their product for other uses. I will be working with a standard bare PCB without the SEEK lens as I will be adding some specialist optics. The camera will be temperature stabilised and adapted to work remotely from the host. Sadly I have yet to receive a reply from SEEK Thermal so they may be too busy or unwilling to assist me in this development work. I will have to wait and see if they respond over the next few days. Plan B will be to order some more SEEK cameras when they become available in the UK.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 07, 2014, 06:16:23 pm
My gradient is the opposite. Its not cold, it's hot. The shutter starts off about the same temperature as ambient. The longer it runs it gets hotter, and it seems to run about as hot as the sensor. People report the sensor at around 38°C and that about 100°F, which is close to what my shutter reads when forced shut.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 07, 2014, 06:31:50 pm
My gradient is the opposite. Its not cold, it's hot. The shutter starts off about the same temperature as ambient. The longer it runs it gets hotter, and it seems to run about as hot as the sensor. People report the sensor at around 38°C and that about 100°F, which is close to what my shutter reads when forced shut.

That makes sense if you are forcing it shut since that's the temperature of the sensor.

But on normal operation some coldness comes from where the shutter enters the optical chamber. Even so, I think it could be compensated by software, either via the firmware or the app itself.

And Seek responded and they think it might be possible to address the problem via software.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: slackaz on November 07, 2014, 06:55:23 pm
I got my camera a few days ago. I agree the gradient issues basically ruins the device. The only thing that seems to workaround is going to split-screen. Still not nearly a perfect solution.  |O

I attached some samples pointing at a wood desk.

Also, here a link to a video where I rotate the camera around my foot. The gradient is clearly visible and rotates with the camera.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0byoSUUY33oM3JXYkNTNjM5Skk/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 07, 2014, 07:08:27 pm
I have written to SEEK asking for their assistance with my development of their product for other uses. I will be working with a standard bare PCB without the SEEK lens as I will be adding some specialist optics. The camera will be temperature stabilised and adapted to work remotely from the host. Sadly I have yet to receive a reply from SEEK Thermal so they may be too busy or unwilling to assist me in this development work. I will have to wait and see if they respond over the next few days. Plan B will be to order some more SEEK cameras when they become available in the UK.

Aurora
I think they are way too busy with production to be spending time talking to people about special applications.
I'd be surprised if they didn't produce some sort of OEM core at some point in the future, after the beta testers  consumer customers have helped refine it to the level OEM customers would expect
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 07, 2014, 07:34:16 pm
And Seek responded and they think it might be possible to address the problem via software.
They had to write something to keep people buying this since it is still in top google search "Seek Thermal gradient" issue  :-DD

It looks like that they haven't got even basic things in their software like temperature scale with thermal LUT overlayed  ???
Did they added this to its latest Andoid update and it is available now or still on things to do, but this should be done as the first UI feature
while it is difficult to find thermal software without such basic thing  :-//

Even small thermophile arrays with a little postprocessing have temperature scale and as we can see below no problem to find person looking into this scale while colors match very nice environment  8)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117154)
But this tiny device has close to 50 pages datasheet with equations needed to calculated things with examples  :-+

For the moment frustrated customers will listen to what will be done in... not defined future.
Simply it is not fair.
BTW: They should run their own forum at cover complete lack of any published documentation available for end users...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 07, 2014, 07:48:12 pm
For the moment frustrated customers will listen to what will be done in... not defined future.
Simply it is not fair.

I did read the customer reviews and the main concern usually is that their device is not supported or they did install cyanogenmod which breaks OTG so it won't work.
I think only one customer mentioned the software needs more features, and I didn't see a single complain about the gradient (other than here or by people here).

Only frustrated customers I know off are the IPhone ones, since they don't have their device yet.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 07, 2014, 07:56:51 pm
@Mike,

I did receive a very friendly reply from SEEK last time I wrote so you never know, they may be more friendly than we think  ;)

I am interested to see whether the performance of the camera improves significantly when a decent (larger) lens is placed in front of the new 12um microbolometer. I will also be lowering the temperature of the whole microbolometer assembly to see how the noise responds. Much will depend upon whether the SEEK firmware can cope with the hardware being enhanced. The SEEK is still the cheapest source of a decent resolution microbolometer and ROIC at this point in time. My application is non radiometric so temperature contrast is far more important than temperature accuracy.

For fun, I attach pictures of one of my specialist lenses that I will be experimenting with.....and yes it is a thermal mirror reflex type telescope of sizeable dimensions and magnification  ;D Long range thermal imaging anyone  ;)

Now if only SEEK will provide the hardware I need........


In the mean time I have a beautiful Bosch Metal Mickey dual tech thermal camera to play with ..... she's a lovely piece of engineering  :)  I attach a picture of 'Mickey'. SEEK Vs Metal Mickey......Hmmmmmmm I think Metal Mickey wins somehow ! But then $20,000 buys a lot of camera.

(If you wonder why the camera is called Metal Mickey...Google Bosch MIC CCTV camera)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on November 07, 2014, 08:31:55 pm
@Aurora,

what's your RealWorkTM, that you get to play with such awesome gear?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 07, 2014, 08:35:31 pm
My thermal cameras are all owned by me and not my employer :)

My work  :-X

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on November 07, 2014, 08:37:27 pm
Judging by the  :-X and by the sand colour of the Mickey... It's the military, isn't it?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 07, 2014, 08:37:52 pm
I'm getting a friend to 3d print the lens adapter

Now to choose between 4", 3", 2.5" 2" 1.5" and 1" focal length, I think I'll start with the 4" one (101.6mm)

Edit: link to adapter thingiverse post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg542224/?topicseen#msg542224 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg542224/?topicseen#msg542224)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: jaybeez on November 07, 2014, 09:21:45 pm
Received my android unit today, and I am very dissappointed. the gradient makes the unit almost unusable within a minute.

My gradient is hot at the bottom left and cold atvthe upper right. With a cold camera and the lens facing down on a flat surface, the screen shows a temperature thats about 10 degrees hotter than ambient, and a colder gradient gradually mives in over several shutter clicks, ultimately creating a colder spot that is about ambient temp.

I've watched Mike's video several times and I am not sold on his solution (no offense Mike). I just can't comprehend how lens position would be the cause of a gradually apearing gradient.

I'd be more inclined to believe that the shutter was acting like a piston or a fan blade and displacing air inside the lens housing, cooling one portion of the sensor.

Mike removed a portion of his lens housing, and colored a portion of the inside. maybe the extra space around the shutter opening and slight adjustment of the housing is reducing the piston effect when the shutter moves.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 07, 2014, 09:29:36 pm
We have asked SEEK for comment on the cause of the gradient as they believe that they have identified it. So far no comment from them  :(

If we know the cause it provides users with the opportunity to modify their camera. I may well scrap the lens tube as that is what I believe is the cause of the issue. My other thermal cameras are of an open lens holder design with free air flow around the lens elements, shutter and microbolometer. The SEEK is the first TIC that I have seen with the tube type lens holder. There may well be a very good reason why this is the case !

I attach a picture of a typical TIC optical block. No enclosing of any part of the optical path. I just found a picture of a Talisman Wasp. Note the open optical block design. Sorry it isn't a clearer picture.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on November 07, 2014, 09:34:21 pm
What could be done (to void warranty  ;D ) is to remove the shutter flag, fill in the gap with some hot glue and use signal from original shutter to trigger new diy shutter in front of the lens.
I would be willing to try that if they would ship the damn thermal module to EU...   |O
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 07, 2014, 09:50:57 pm
I've watched Mike's video several times and I am not sold on his solution (no offense Mike). I just can't comprehend how lens position would be the cause of a gradually apearing gradient.
Could be change in temp of the lens housing (relative to the sensor and/or lens)?
The fact the lens was glued and I had no way to accurately hold & adjust everything meant it was difficult to conclusively prove anything -  having to manually hold things may also have contributed some thermal effects.
It is possible that the temp was different between my original "before" and "after" results, though I did leave it off for a while to stabilise after I'd been handling stuff.

Must remember to try the lens form the Audi camera on it some time.

 
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 07, 2014, 10:15:51 pm
@miguelvp

Probably our new EEVBlog member @slackaz which showed also realtime video how useless this thing can be is looking for information there when it will be improved, but if I were him and in the country where this company is located of course sended this device back and requested money back since there is no other option to avoid this gradient issue for the moment.
I got my camera a few days ago. I agree the gradient issues basically ruins the device.
Such thing should be found by Seek team before they send it to customers.
Now talking about magic software updates and that they found why this issue is, but can't tell even people in this EEVbog forum only means this is their public relations oldshool game  :--

The question only is if are there any Seek Thermal cameras which are not affected by this gradient issue?  :o
I'm not talking about perfect conditions created to avoid it for short period of time.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 07, 2014, 10:19:51 pm
I opened my camera at work today, did some experiments, even cracked the glue free of the lens housing. My imager was free of any residue at all. I attempted to reposition the lens which made no appreciable difference. I tried all different ways to prove it was a thermal issue. I simply couldn't make a difference in the gradient. I also may have destroyed the sensor because I think the lens housing pushed some bond wires together and now I have a black image output. I have to get under a microscope and look, might need to just bump them free of each other. I hope. Otherwise it's $200 in the garbage.

They did mention a temporal drift algorithm. I'm also leaning towards it being poor comoensation. We can play with all the electronics all day, if there is a bug in the software, it won't make a bit of difference.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 07, 2014, 10:29:00 pm
@eneuro,

A very good question.

I was not seeing a lot of unhappy posts on Facebook regarding the gradient issue which surprised me (remember they did not delete my question regarding such) so the user base appears unaware of a problem. From pictures shown here, it would appear to be obvious BUT I wonder......

If you point a thermal camera at a normal mixed temperature target scene, and the span is auto set to 'wide' by the camera, the gradient may not be obvious to users. When you point a thermal camera at a relatively uniform target of approx one temperature, like a table top, the camera may be auto setting its span to the smallest available (normal behaviour in a TIC). A small span will show the gradient far more than a wider span.

Not saying that this is the case or acceptable, but it may well be that the scientific minds of the EEVBlog have carried out UAT that a casual user would not. If the SEEK provides a decent picture under everyday circumstances it will likely be adequate for most consumers. There have to be compromises to achieve such low cost. This may be one of them but I wish SEEK would talk about it. A hardware solution is IMHO better for my needs than a software 'botch'. I am happy to do the work so its not as though I am asking SEEK to sort it out.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 07, 2014, 10:37:00 pm
I opened my camera at work today, did some experiments, even cracked the glue free of the lens housing. My imager was free of any residue at all. I attempted to reposition the lens which made no appreciable difference. I tried all different ways to prove it was a thermal issue. I simply couldn't make a difference in the gradient. I also may have destroyed the sensor because I think the lens housing pushed some bond wires together and now I have a black image output. I have to get under a microscope and look, might need to just bump them free of each other. I hope. Otherwise it's $200 in the garbage.


If it's unfixable, don't sling it.... I could do with a sacrificial unit to teardown the sensor and trace out the PCB.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: frenky on November 07, 2014, 10:46:23 pm
I was not seeing a lot of unhappy posts on Facebook regarding the gradient issue which surprised me (remember they did not delete my question regarding such) so the user base appears unaware of a problem. From pictures shown here, it would appear to be obvious BUT I wonder......

People just don't notice it.
Check this video from 5:58 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeG_nmb1s54#t=356 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeG_nmb1s54#t=356) thermal gradient on his module is awful and he doesn't notice it...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 07, 2014, 10:56:35 pm
Yes I see what you mean. If SEEK Thermal admit the issue is serious they may be worried about returns and recall requests.
Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 07, 2014, 10:58:46 pm
I would be willing to try that if they would ship the damn thermal module to EU...   |O
Maybe there are also other reasons than ITAR limitations?
EUR-Lex Access to European Union law (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/homepage.html)
In the case of our country when normal person not company fill such complain form, than wait I'm not sure 30 days I guess, than if the problem is not resolved and make lawsuit in the court than when unsolved and not repaired issue was found  within 6 months than in the case of court lawsuit manufacturer have to proove that there is no issue at all, while after 6 moonths customer have to proove it which in the case of modern technology it can extremelly difficult and probably one had to pay for expert in this area.
I didn't gone througth court with such issues, but in many cases one email and official letter is fine, while company lawyers knows that one can make lawsuit vs them if they dismiss official document (not email).

So, talki that something will be done sometime by Seek Thermal maybe also simply game for time... to pass this 6 month pwriod-but ok I'm not a lawyer so in the case of broken thermal device maybe layers offize could help in US...

There is also another issue with Seek Thermal-for me is not acceptable there is no even end user manual available, which as I know is required in EU - I'm not usr ehot it looks like in US, so maybe if someone destroyed this device becouse of tried somehow "tune" this device to avoid this gradient, maybe there is a chance even without any lawsuits that will get his money back, because of there is NO SEEK THERMAL USER MANUAL available   :box:
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 07, 2014, 11:06:07 pm
I would be willing to try that if they would ship the damn thermal module to EU...   |O
Maybe there are also other reasons than ITAR limitations?
EUR-Lex Access to European Union law (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/homepage.html)
In the case of our country when normal person not company fill such complain form, than wait I'm not sure 30 days I guess, than if the problem is not resolved and make lawsuit in the court than when unsolved and not repaired issue was found  within 6 months than in the case of court lawsuit manufacturer have to proove that there is no issue at all, while after 6 moonths customer have to proove it which in the case of modern technology can extremelly difficult and probably one had to pay for expert in this area.
I didn't gone througth court with such issues, but in many cases one email and official letter is fine, while company lawyers knows that one can make lawsuit vs them if they dismiss official document (not email).

So, talki that something will be done sometime by Seek Thermal maybe also simply game for time... to pass this 6 month pwriod-but ok I'm not a lawyer so in the case of broken thermal device maybe layers offize could help in US...

There is also another issue with Seek Thermal-for me is not acceptable there is no even end user manual available, which as I know is required in EU - I'm not usr ehot it looks like in US, so maybe if someone destroyed this device becouse of tried somehow "tune" this device to avoid this gradient, maybe there is a chance even without any lawsuits that will get his money back, because of there is NO SEEK THERMAL USER MANUAL available   :box:
There are no ITAR issues (well at least not as far as the finished product is concerned  ;) )
If they ship from the US to the EU, then it's a personal import and not subject to EU consumer law

I have no doubt that the only reason is they're still struggling to fulfill US orders.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 07, 2014, 11:13:55 pm
If they ship from the US to the EU, then it's a personal import and not subject to EU consumer law
Really? I have to investigate this in local customers lawyers office.
For the moment this product is not officially sold by Seek Thermal to EU, so if someone from US bought it and shipped as person to person than ok,
but what if US customer bought this device via Seek Thermal and is US citizen which got not tis what he expected to be in thermal camera, however will notice it lets say after a few months?
There is no user manual requirement in US?  ???

Update: On this video above  there is some sort of Seek Thermal black papers, but no google'able electronic version?
Ok. I do not complain no more-simply it is not a time to buy this device right now....let others find bugs in their software and hardware  ;)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: jaybeez on November 07, 2014, 11:31:12 pm
I've watched Mike's video several times and I am not sold on his solution (no offense Mike). I just can't comprehend how lens position would be the cause of a gradually apearing gradient.
Could be change in temp of the lens housing (relative to the sensor and/or lens)?
The fact the lens was glued and I had no way to accurately hold & adjust everything meant it was difficult to conclusively prove anything -  having to manually hold things may also have contributed some thermal effects.
It is possible that the temp was different between my original "before" and "after" results, though I did leave it off for a while to stabilise after I'd been handling stuff.

Must remember to try the lens form the Audi camera on it some time.

Im just trying to limit the variables before digging into this. im convinced that the problem went away after your modifications, your demonstration at the end shows that. my question is why?

lens position or housing modifications

with my unit, from a cold start it works perfectly, and the gradient slowly appears over several calibrations. if its turned off and turned back on immediately the gradient remains. if its turned off and left along for 5-10 minutes the gradient is gone at start up. that almost rules out anything except a source of heat or cooling.

I think aurora might be onto something with the openness of the holder.

Mike, how does your unit perform with real use now that you've made the modifications? im interested in the quality of the pictures and video.

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 07, 2014, 11:34:41 pm
There is also another issue with Seek Thermal-for me is not acceptable there is no even end user manual available, which as I know is required in EU
There is help in the app. What's the big deal about a manual?
As they haven't published a spec, image quality is a subjective issue.
Compared to the nearest equivalent, Therm-App, cost is 20%, so it could be argued that if quality is at least 20% as good, that's reasonable....

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 07, 2014, 11:38:59 pm

Mike, how does your unit perform with real use now that you've made the modifications? im interested in the quality of the pictures and video.
As the lens holder is no longer stuck down it can't really be used at the moment!

Something that might be interesting to try is heating/cooling the lens holder.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: jaybeez on November 07, 2014, 11:47:45 pm

Mike, how does your unit perform with real use now that you've made the modifications? im interested in the quality of the pictures and video.
As the lens holder is no longer stuck down it can't really be used at the moment!

Something that might be interesting to try is heating/cooling the lens holder.

I was thinking more along the lines of adding an opening of the same shape and size on the opposite side of the lens housing, placing it back in its original location and retesting it.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 07, 2014, 11:49:53 pm
This may sound bit harsh to some but $200 is peanuts for a unit that is capable of producing a medium resolution image. Take a look at the resolution and price of a Lepton or a Fluke VT02. SEEK have achieved an amazing retail price even when considering the current issues being discussed here. I think we have been spoiled by the Flir E4 achievements. I am still fully behind SEEK. Early adopters expect teething troubles.. Now the M u thermal camera is an example of a real dodgy TIC
Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 07, 2014, 11:53:15 pm
Preliminary observations done yesterday with an IR thermometer and my wife's Galaxy S4 with the temperature set to measure the center spot.

Paint 0.96 emissivity at 12 inches (IR thermometer is a 12/1 so to measure one inch diameter I have to be at 12 inches distance) it read within one degree (Fahrenheit)

Skin 0.98 emissivity it was under 2 degrees Fahrenheit.

Other random measurements but leaving the emissivity at 0.96 on both devices the Seek was around 1 to 2 degrees Fahrenheit off and always reading lower than the IR thermometer (UNI-T UT301A I believe it is that model I'll double check when I get home)

Also note that people that have been playing with the raw data are not really seeing that problem but maybe it's because between compilation and testing even if the camera is plugged it, it's not really running.

For example look at bktemp images after cleanning up the signal.
Image 7 to 8 he does quite a bit of filtering but I think from 7 we can even get rid off those remaining lines.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=116798;image)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fry-kun on November 08, 2014, 12:06:38 am
How often does it calibrate in normal operation?

I don't have a working cellphone (mine is CyanogenMod 11, which doesn't work with Seek) -- so I'm trying it with the computer USB connection...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: jaybeez on November 08, 2014, 12:12:53 am
How often does it calibrate in normal operation?

I don't have a working cellphone (mine is CyanogenMod 11, which doesn't work with Seek) -- so I'm trying it with the computer USB connection...

every few seconds. more frequently if the image is changing.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 08, 2014, 12:23:58 am
every 2-3 secs - unlike the E4 it doesn't seem to slow down as things stabilise.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fry-kun on November 08, 2014, 12:28:24 am
Oh ok, so I guess it's normal..
Does it also do it more frequently on startup?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 08, 2014, 12:33:51 am
yes, on startup it has a series of rapid succession calibration events.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 08, 2014, 12:55:28 am
@mike,

I don't know if I'm going to be able to repair this thing. The bond wires were basically spaghetti. I managed to move a few off each other but the center section of the wires is pretty bad. I could probably do a better job if I had a way to hold my microscope and rake the bond wires with a small wire. Its fairly difficult. If I don't succeed, you'll have a board coming your way.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Yushir0 on November 08, 2014, 02:40:38 am
Just as an FYI, I got my camera this afternoon and it works just peachy on a galaxy note II running the latest cyanogenmod nightly.  Your experience may differ depending on your device,  but cyanogenmod definitely works on at least some phones. If you have USB debugging enabled,  try turning it off and maybe it will help.

On a side note, the gradient on mine is crazy bad (10°F variation between the high and low on a surface with a perfectly uniform temperature). I wanted to use it to do an energy audit on my house and for electronics troubleshooting, but sadly it is pretty much useless for both purposes as you can barely see anything through the gradient unless the temperature is wildly different between whatever is in the foreground and background) .  Pretty much the only thing it is good for right now is taking thermal pictures of my pets...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Andrew Seltzman on November 08, 2014, 03:05:36 am
I made a jig to attach the seek camera to a thorlabs optical cage and image a CO2 laser beam. The laser is pulsing at about 5W through a 200X attenuator with a 6% duty cycle 1kHz waveform.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 08, 2014, 03:41:32 am
Well, I don't know how I did it, but I managed to untangle bond wires. I resurrected the camera! FYI, for anyone who decides to take their camera apart and remove the lens, heed my warning!!!! Do NOT attempt to reposition to lens. It's not worth the effort, and the damage you might do to the bond wires could ruin the camera. They certainly less than the thickness of a human hair. I have access to a decent usb microscope, and I used a razor blade to pull bond wires apart. They aren't pretty, but the there isn't any noticeable difference to the image quality. Just breathing on them causes them to touch each other.

I was literally about to hit the order button on the thermal.com website. Saved myself $200.

Sorry mike, i'm keeping this one.

Now...on the other hand, I did have a few spots on the lens housing that the paint missed. I used white out to cover the areas up. I also noticed my shutter coil wasn't perfectly sitting against the pcb, which is interesting. If the shutter is at an angle, as it has a slightly reflective finish, could it cause a change in the field? I can report my gradient has now moved, but only occupies one side of the image along the edge, and it doesn't go towards the center of the image. I didn't move the lens position. Interesting findings. Oh and the gradient was about 10-11 degrees before. Now after its gotten hot, its about 5-6. Much improved, but not there yet.

I hope this helps anyone else. Check your shutter coils. Also, sharpie works well to touch up the black paint flecks off of the metal housing.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 08, 2014, 03:48:41 am
Congrats on resurrecting your camera   :phew:
You should have watched Mike's video about the bond wires, it almost happened to him but he dodged the bullet.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 08, 2014, 03:58:51 am
Congrats on resurrecting your camera   :phew:
You should have watched Mike's video about the bond wires, it almost happened to him but he dodged the bullet.

Well, funny thing is, I got the lens off with no major issues. It was when I was trying to get the lens in a different position is when I managed to snag those wires. I moved the lens to far right and it crashed into them, which caused many to crinkle up into eachother. I much have about a micron of clearance on some of the wires, just enough to not cause a conflict.

I might try removing the lens again, but this time clean the epoxy off and get the lens closer to the sensor. It seems like most cameras are near focused. Things far away are blurrier than they should be, which could be a result of the post processing, but up close things are tack sharp. I wonder if mike can speak on his experience with setting the lens down closer to the sensor.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 08, 2014, 04:26:42 am
He was luckier than you, check 18:30 on his 2nd video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hzsTsFvHss8#t=1115 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hzsTsFvHss8#t=1115)

Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 08, 2014, 04:27:07 am
Congratulations on the re-alignment of the bond-wires..... not an easy task and thank goodness that they were not too brittle to reposition.

This camera is just screaming for a better lens holder than that aluminium tube that SEEK have used. In my minds eye I picture a 'cage' instead of a tube and the lens mounted in a threaded holder that permits manual focus. enlargement of the lens aperture on the SEEKs case would then permit the new holder and manual focus ring to protrude. It may not be as pretty as the standard SEEK but it would be a heck of a lot lore useful and less likely to suffer thermal issues around the microbolometer. The 'cage' could be formed from thick copper wire or something slightly stiffer and a threaded 'nut' positioned at the end for the lens holder.

There is so much opportunity for experimentation with this little camera. It is unlikely to happen any time soon but it would be great if the SEEK camera technology became as common as an Arduino and sold in a format for experimentation. How popular that would be with the maker community. Robots and computer applications with thermal vision etc  :)

Mike has an excellent way to control lighting effects using thermal camera technology that can see the human target coming. Far more complex than a normal PIR and that sort of application is begging for the new cheaper SEEK technology. IRISYS charge around $1000 for a 15x15 thermal camera people counter..... pretty expensive compared to the $200 SEEK but software would have to be written for the specific application.

FLIR are declining single unit supply of the LEPTON core to the maker community so maybe SEEK can fill that market opportunity as and when the rush on their SEEK camera subsides. Hope you are reading this SEEK Thermal ;) Be the first to market a DIY thermal camera worth deploying in as-yet unimagined applications  :-+ Being as famous as the Arduino would not be a bad thing for a start up company. The R-Pi community is another market for such a camera. Oh the opportunities that exist out there.

Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 08, 2014, 05:19:06 am
Well, I decided to chip away at the epoxy on both the board and the lens...very carefully. I got the lens about flush with the pcb, used a bit of hot glue to hold the lens down. Yes, moving the lens closer changes the focus of the lens. Now instead of a super clear up close image, I get great far focus. The housing actually pulls the lens away a little and lines it up. So it's basically really well focused for what I would want now. Gradient is still a minor issue, but that's something I guess we will have to live with till Seek offers us the ability to take a calibration frame through the lens vs. just the shutter. I strongly believe the radiation is coming from the lens housing, as the gradient has moved a little. This is a huge red flag pointing right at the lens housing. It does sit awfully close to the sensor. Also, the housing actually has a ledge inside right before the lens, which would be part of the retainer the lens sits in. So that could very well be what we are seeing, as the sensor heats up, the radiation is reflecting off the lens housing, possibly in that area.

Good luck to anyone who decides to dice up their units. They are tough on the outside, fragile as can be inside.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 08, 2014, 05:32:18 am
Well, I did change the C# code to read 16 bits unsigned shorts instead of 8 bit bytes to be recombined later to 16 bits. I'm not ready to post the code yet since I have to clean up a lot of stuff first, but I looked at the first 12 frames from boot and found some interesting things.

In the following table I made it 1 based so what we usually refer to as pixel 10, in here is pixel 11

Code: [Select]
PX   F1   F2   F3    F4 F5    F6   F7   F8   F9 F10 F11 F12
 
01 3251    0 8733 15625 135 4256 8721 8278 8680 8701 8278 8683
02    0 2000 3237 15520 112 4257 3236 3236 3235 3234 3234 3234
03 3361 2000 8566 15626 139 4258 8540 8080 8500 8516 8076 8496
04 3221 2000 7266 15612 136 4129 7251 6772 7202 7227 6758 7200
05 3320 2000 6417 15588 139 4382 6384 5877 6360 6371 5878 6338
06 3304 2001 9039 15639 137 16287 9024 8570 8985 8997 8575 8968
07 3352 2001 7086 15587 141 4001 7067 6565 7026 7029 6560 7008
08 3133 2001 5748 15574 132 4255 5733 5223 5686 5699 5226 5673
09 3281 2001 6932 15589 138 4257 6914 6437 6882 6904 6427 6872
10 3088 2001 7765 15615 130 4257 7741 7293 7693 7707 7283 7688
11    4    9    8     7 10     5    1    3    6    1    3    6
12 3321 2002 6264 15595 140 4129 6255 5714 6201 6213 5710 6181
13 3353 2002 6949 15585 142 4223 6923 6404 6885 6892 6407 6859
14 3351 2002 8650 15623 141 3999 8635 8173 8603 8616 8176 8588
15 3408 2003 8593 15603 144 3998 8570 8088 8543 8540 8086 8520
16 3404 2003 6941 15600 142 4255 6919 6420 6870 6885 6406 6859
17 3397 2003 6417 15576 143 4126 6405 5887 6356 6374 5855 6349
18 3382 2003 8247 15611 143 4638 8229 7742 8177 8195 7732 8168
19 3432 2003 8360 15618 144 3868 8349 7862 8298 8305 7845 8292
20 3492 2004 7514 15604 146 4257 7491 6986 7450 7468 6984 7438
21 3391 2004 6048 15572 145 16289 6024 5486 5979 5991 5466 5969
22 3381 2004 6525 15587 144 3874 6500 5961 6462 6465 5957 6441
23 3263 2004 6276 15571 139 3746 6258 5746 6207 6227 5748 6205
24 3389 2005 6530 15580 143 4127 6511 5979 6458 6476 5981 6439
25 3488 2005 6730 15581 147 4000 6719 6185 6672 6687 6177 6656
26    0 2005    0     0   0 4511    0    0    0    0    0    0
27 3298 2005 5906 15568 140 4385 5883 5352 5847 5850 5351 5827
28 3392 2005 6634 15603 143 4095 6618 6077 6571 6580 6065 6556
29 3524 2006 9092 15630 149 4130 9059 8556 9022 9028 8560 9010
30 3474 2006 5879 15588 146 4256 5867 5271 5801 5814 5264 5788
31 3529 2006 7605 15604 147 4385 7582 7071 7540 7555 7067 7520
32 3602 2006 7792 15623 150 4255 7772 7243 7720 7740 7229 7705
33 3300 2007 6456 15596 140 4257 6436 5901 6376 6391 5893 6369
34 3266 2007 5959 15593 139 4513 5923 5388 5886 5900 5394 5867
35 3467 2007 9011 15668 142 4259 8998 8510 8959 8971 8514 8955
36 3469 2007 6178 15588 146 16288 6156 5583 6103 6118 5581 6087
37 3523 2007 8010 15598 149 4257 7981 7455 7939 7937 7446 7916

We know that 1 is for a calibration frame, also we know that 3 is a usable frame, we also knew (although we never used it) that 6 is a pre calibration frame.

But on startup there are other IDs, namely 4, 9, 8, 7, 10 & 5 they do look like parametric values to an equation, or at least 7 could be max value and 10 min value, or something like that.

I think those in combination with column 207 might hold a key on reducing banding noise and other calibration data.

I will try to put some code to capture the first full 20 raw frames in individual files with the camera facing down

Edit: Those first 6 frames on device startup might hold the key to a cleaner image.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 08, 2014, 06:12:41 am
So here is some raw data, 20 frames from startup including those first 6 frames then calibration, capture and precalibration.
They are all raw without taking away any pixels or doing any processing in any shape or form, I did put all the 20 frames in a single file and did two separate runs.

They are 16 bits per pixel, little endian.
Each frame is 208 by 156, 2 bytes per pixel unsigned int16
column 207 has the adjustment value we've been mentioning
column 208 is always 0.

First file is with the camera facing down during startup for 20 frames.
2nd file is with the camera facing the router during startup for 20 frames.

They both include the those bootup frames with ID on pixel 10.

Edit: here are the frame IDs for the facedown file
1 means calibrate (3 total in this file)
6 means pre-calibrate (we think it does anyways, 2 total in this file)
3 means valid frame to process (9 total in this file)

The rest we don't know what they mean (one of each in this file)

4, 9, 8, 7, 10, 5, 1, 3, 3, 3, 6, 1, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6, 1, 3
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 08, 2014, 08:12:39 am
So here are the first 8 frames of the camera facing down but not to scale range (value) wise, but so that the data is somewhat visible.

Frame 1 (ID 4) seems like it has the patent pixels and what seems to be dead pixels, and what seems to be the horizontal banding. I wonder if this data is added somehow to the capture data or it just identifies the non responsive pixels (kind of like a slope value)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117242;image)

Frame 2 (ID 9) is a bit bizarre, because it shows a nice gradient, like if during boot the chip shows that the memory is writable and is just to make sure it can be read. It's pretty smooth with no dead pixels (other than pixel 10) and maybe some others that I can't see. the original range goes from [2000 to 16383] (both included) it didn't translate well to 8 bits. Maybe that's the actual sensor range for raw data, not sure. Also it might be the firmware that outputs the gradient, doesn't have to do anything with the sensor for all we know.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117244;image)

Frame 3 (ID 8 ) looks like a factory calibration data, or maybe it's a boot time real calibration image. Since I had the camera facing down it looks (almost) exactly like Frame 7 and 8 (first real cal, and first image since i had the camera facing down)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117246;image)

Frame 4 (ID 7) looks like the patent pixels and some minor adjustments, little threshold and all the data is on they high 15,000 range, but I scaled it to make it visible.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117248;image)

Frame 5 (ID 10) is similar to Frame 1, but at a lower range (in the hundreds), also I don't know what the upper right corner is doing being all darkish.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117250;image)

Frame 6 (ID 5), patent pixels and horizontal banding, but only for the left half of the image like it's supposed to be stretched, funny thing is that the 1st patent pixels is at half of what it should be but the 2nd one is 15 pixels further so, maybe it just represents the pattern to be adjusted by. Also note that no really dead pixels so the sensor's memory (if it does have that) or the firmware is the one producing that.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117252;image)

Frame 7 (ID 1), 1st calibration frame with the shutter blocking the sensor.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117254;image)

Frame 8 (ID 3), first display frame, shutter open but camera facing down.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117256;image)

Edit, forgot to add the pre-cal frame:

Frame 11 (ID 6), first pre-cal frame, since it's facing down it looks the same as the cal ones and the visible ones)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117260;image)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 08, 2014, 10:03:07 am
Re. bond wires, it would probably be possible to blob them with glue to make them more secure.
You'd need to be careful with choice of glue - it would want to be something that stays slightly flexible to avoid putting any stress on anything, runny enough to fill the gaps but not so runny it flows away across the PCB.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: callipso on November 08, 2014, 12:29:21 pm
@Mike,

I rewatched the gradient video and got an idea: could you try and grind away at the round opening in the bottom of the lens holder to make it bigger, possibly all the way?

It also might be possible to make the lens holder into a "cage" by carefully cutting the sides out of the holder...
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Fraser on November 08, 2014, 01:16:14 pm
@Callipso, I wondered if drilling a series of holes around the lens tube might resolve the gradient issue. The problem is that the lens tube needs to be removed to do the work.
Aurora
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: jaybeez on November 08, 2014, 01:26:12 pm
@ mike, aurora, calipso
I think duplicating the shutter opening on the opposite side of the lens holder would do the trick.

the sensor starts "hot" at that corner, and moves to "cold" (room temperature) and the shutter opening.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 08, 2014, 01:43:38 pm
If the shutter is at an angle, as it has a slightly reflective finish, could it cause a change in the field? I can report my gradient has now moved, but only occupies one side of the image along the edge, and it doesn't go towards the center of the image. I didn't move the lens position.
When we compare this Seek shutter with Flir E4 that probably the first suspect could be this Seek shutter, while there is no perfect symetry in its design and shutter holder with relative higher mass or maybe even comparable to its thin part when moves in sensor FOV than simply maybe faster moving end of shutter is cooled in air while part close to rotation point is at lower speed so I can imagine that there can be temperature difference.
Maybe even some kind of friction in rotating point heats up shutter holder slightly?

Just implemented my image processing idea based on  Seek sensor raw data and now performing additionaly FFTs of calibration and image data.
Gradient issue is interesting thing while it can affect also custom mounted MELEXIS thermophile arrays, so worth futher investigation  :-/O

Could some one provide more detailed vblog with this Seek shutter mechanical view from looking into it around him to see  details how it is mounted and how much friction is between those moving parts?
It could be interesting to see it in action in slow motion using fast framerate camera  ::)

10*F gradient difference is about 5*C so huge  :o
I could bet not for $1000 but for $100 easy that this gradient issue was the reason that Seek app doesn't show temperature scale, while it is much more difficult realize that easy visible different colors when pointed to flat surface perpendicular to its surface have such huge difference in temperature on flat surface  |O
Since there is no LUT temperature scale presented, one have to switch on those spots tracking and what he'll see only those white temperature numbers on GRAYED background, so this is some kind of distraction while those spots are moving your attention is to track those moving spots, so much more effort needed to realize that wow these temperatures should be close to the same...

Without enabled spot tracking mode it is difficult notice this, while people used to knew that when they look at LCD from diffrent angles then those colors change a little bit, so by disabling pernament default temperature scale it coube a tricky, but simply way to hide this gradient issue  :palm:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117303)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117304)
it is only a speculation, but if it were only 1-2 degree difference than ok, but when Seek doesn't provide any data on expected accuracy of those temperature measurements, probably it is made intentionally, while when someone discovered such difference, than could have a easy way to proof that this device doesn't meet its requirements and might wanted send back and request refund.

So, DOES Seek impleented temperature scale in his latest software app update? I guess, they don't  until resolve gradient issue somehow :-DD
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: jaybeez on November 08, 2014, 01:57:40 pm
near focus vs far focus

The near focus is pretty good. my pvs14 and some thermal imagers use add on lenses for magnification.

these lenses are reported to work with the therm-app
http://eom.umicore.com/en/infrared-optics/product-range/35-mm-f-1.1/ (http://eom.umicore.com/en/infrared-optics/product-range/35-mm-f-1.1/)

but when it comes to focal length and determining which size lens doubles or triples magnification I get lost. but it shouldn't be difficult to 3D print a threaded lens holder that snaps over the seek's bezel/housing. if 2-3x magnification was in focus i'd be much happier.

Seek,
if you are still listening, i'd like to suggest an app modification. Your side by side viewer with the thermal/native camera is nice, but in portrait orientation its not as usefull as over and under would be. over and under while in portrait orientation would allow the 2 images to remain closer to the 4:3 aspect ratio, one above the other without the slider, and would be a little more intuitive considering the native and Seek cameras are physically positioned that way on most phones. seperate zoom for each view would be nice too.

id love to be able to hook my pvs14 to my phone adapter and have night vision/native camera view on top and seek view on the bottom of the screen.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 08, 2014, 02:03:37 pm
So here are the first 8 frames of the camera facing down but not to scale range (value) wise, but so that the data is somewhat visible.
Good work, but it is issue that those images are ONLY 8bit so they are useless for anything but display them only....
Quote
$ file Frame1.png
Frame1.png: PNG image, 208 x 156, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
If you provided those 16bit grayscale PNGs I suggested and using as input to my image processing soft while raw sensor data is 14bit, not 8 bit, then people could verify what you stated  :-\
Quote
$ file  sts_cal.png
sts_cal.png: PNG image, 208 x 156, 16-bit grayscale, non-interlaced
This is only two lines of code in OpenCV to output such 16bit grayscale PNG image after or durring processing from any internal matrix format:
Code: [Select]
// Conversions
outf.convertTo(out, CV_16U, 16384 );
imwrite("sts_cal.png", out );
I used 16384 scaling factor since operated on real numbers 0.0..1.0 in software...it can be changed or keep oryginal raw sensor data intact...

Update:
So here is some raw data, 20 frames from startup including those first 6 frames then calibration, capture and precalibration.
It looks much better   :-+ >:D
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Spyke on November 08, 2014, 02:46:45 pm
Just got mine a few days ago. I must say the gradient issue makes the thing pretty poor in high contrast situations. Sad as that rules out most uses. Upon power up the gradient does not exist, but slowly comes into frame after about 20 seconds.

Did anyone think it might be the lens that is getting warmer on one side? I'd imagine the lens tube being made of metal does a good job at transferring heat from the PCB into the lens itself. If somebody could 3D print an ABS one this could probably be better examined... you'd have to remove the lens itself without breaking it however.
As was posted in most TIC's the lens assembly isn't attached to any heat sources and is separate from the PCB.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 08, 2014, 03:05:42 pm
The lens isn't really heating up from the PCB, the factory puts glue down and the lens housing sits on the glue like a pillow. There's about a millimeter gap between the PCB touching the housing. The heat conduction isn't great. As I stated, the problem seems to be related to the sensor heating up, and the white paint on the housing is slightly reflective, so it seems to be a reflection off some surface inside the housing. Had they used a black matted surface, it probably wouldn't have been an issue.

Here's a picture of my cat warming up in sunlight.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 08, 2014, 03:26:56 pm
First file is with the camera facing down during startup for 20 frames.
2nd file is with the camera facing the router during startup for 20 frames.
They were send at <10Hz ?
Do you have any timing hint what frame rate in this raw data could be?
It could be helpfull to estimate when those events took place, so for example delays between calibration frames and normal-do they happen at the same constant frame rate and delay between each those frames?
Such time stamp information when each frame took place could help investigate this raw data...so suggested to output each frame with time stamp info.
OpenCV has builtin functions for calculating such timing, but one have to be carefull and check if task scheduling in OS doesn't affect those time stamp at higher frequencies   :-/O
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: efahrenholz on November 08, 2014, 06:38:09 pm
The next thing that needs to be done is to unlock that firmware. I'm curious to see how they process the frames off the sensor.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 08, 2014, 06:49:29 pm
The next thing that needs to be done is to unlock that firmware. I'm curious to see how they process the frames off the sensor.
ISTR someone said they'd found a firmware image in the .apk - should be fairly easy to determine if this is ARM code, or is obfuscated/encrypted.
At some point I'll read the flash - there may be stuff like cal data in there.
BTW I did establish that the test pads on the PCB do not connect directly to the flash - probably JTAG or SWD.
   
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: marshallh on November 08, 2014, 06:56:17 pm
I have the firmware image loaded in IDA. But I'm too shit at reversing to understand anything besides what's evidenced by the debug strings.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: Andrew Seltzman on November 08, 2014, 07:11:50 pm
Has anyone made a USB API (something similar to the winusbdotnet program written by sgstair) in the form of a dll file that can be called from matlab?
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 08, 2014, 07:28:04 pm
First file is with the camera facing down during startup for 20 frames.
2nd file is with the camera facing the router during startup for 20 frames.
They were send at <10Hz ?
Do you have any timing hint what frame rate in this raw data could be?
It could be helpfull to estimate when those events took place, so for example delays between calibration frames and normal-do they happen at the same constant frame rate and delay between each those frames?
Such time stamp information when each frame took place could help investigate this raw data...so suggested to output each frame with time stamp info.
OpenCV has builtin functions for calculating such timing, but one have to be carefull and check if task scheduling in OS doesn't affect those time stamp at higher frequencies   :-/O

No timestamp sorry, I'll work on adding a time_t timestamp before each frame, what do you prefer, before capturing, after capturing, or both?
i.e: begintime-frame-endtime-begintime-frame-endtime...

And you are funny about the higher frequencies :)
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 08, 2014, 07:31:27 pm
Has anyone made a USB API (something similar to the winusbdotnet program written by sgstair) in the form of a dll file that can be called from matlab?

No but it's trivial to open a file and dump the raw data there to be later analyzed.
That's what I did and fed the raw file to Visiquest for analysis.
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: eneuro on November 08, 2014, 08:46:54 pm
I'll work on adding a time_t timestamp before each frame, what do you prefer, before capturing, after capturing, or both?
I used to use this code to compute how much time some processing is made and when  (of course using  C/C++ OpenCV):
Code: [Select]
// http://docs.opencv.org/modules/core/doc/utility_and_system_functions_and_macros.html
        double t= (double)getTickCount()/getTickFrequency();

        calf.convertTo(cal256, CV_8U, 128 );
        imgf.convertTo(img256, CV_8U, 128 );
        outf.convertTo(out256, CV_8U, ((double)128/25.0) );

        double dt= ((double)getTickCount())/getTickFrequency() -t;

        fprintf(stderr,"%s: Timestamp: %0.9f [s]  Processing time: %0.9f [s]\n",
                argv0, t, dt );
It outputs nice time in seconds how when from system powerup something happened and processing time:
Quote
./seek_thermal_opencv_test: Timestamp: 14736.406878773 s  Processing time: 0.000353242] s   

Of course in case of "Sick" Thermal dongle maybe 9 digits not needed, but it doesn't matter if we type 9 or 3 digits in output format  :D

Back to where put those timestamps probably the best option could be leave raw data untouched  for example in *.raw files and this timing info add to second text file *.idx and in parallel with catching those frames via USB put text in such easy format ready even to plot using gnuplot , etc Facerouter20frames.idx in attachment.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/?action=dlattach;attach=117323)
This is the way I deal with this nice raw data now-by outputting additional description text files and images.
I haven't got this timestamp info to try look how it changed in time...

Offset in bytes where frame begins (first byte offset 0x0 of course) is fine while if we have start than it is easy calculate where ends by image size or by tracking those 0x0000 words hexagon pattern.
There is another advantage ussing such kind of metadata text file-add support for those FITS image file format so staring from raw data such index table can be included, as well as other tables with added configuration data or parameters send from sensor via USB if its protocol will be known, so I'm writting sts2img converter with 16bit PNG output by default, but have FITS image format with tables in mind  :phew:
Title: Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
Post by: miguelvp on November 08, 2014, 09:10:16 pm
@eneuro, here you go, timestamps for all the first 20 frames,

Time stamp is 64 bit in hundreds of nanoseconds (DateTime.Ticks) I computed the deltas for the delays.

On the loop I take the timestamp, then capture the frame, and take the next timestamp before writing it to the drive and then loop again. So sometimes there is a delay while the frame is written to disc between frames, usually 1 ms sometimes a couple.

I also put the delta times that took to capture the frame.

Code: [Select]
Frame 1 ID 4
08d1c9758415a0a4
08d1c97584209d4d <- 72.0041 ms

Frame 2 ID 9
08d1c97584209d4d
08d1c9758425584f <- 31.0018 ms

Frame 3 ID 8
08d1c9758425584f
08d1c97584384456 <- 124.0071 ms

Frame 4 ID 7
08d1c97584384456
08d1c9758441ba5a <- 62.0036 ms

Frame 5 ID 10
08d1c9758441ba5a
08d1c9758446755b <- 31.0017 ms

Frame 6 ID 5
08d1c9758446755b
08d1c975844b305d <- 31.0018 ms

Frame 7 ID 1
08d1c975844b305d
08d1c9758488d684 <- 404.0231 ms

Frame 8 ID 3
08d1c9758488d684
08d1c97584a07d8d <- 155.0089 ms

<- 4.0002 ms File Write delay

Frame 9 ID 3
08d1c97584a119cf
08d1c97584b36994 <- 120.0069 ms

 <- 2.0001 ms File Write delay

Frame 10 ID 3
08d1c97584b3b7b5
08d1c97584c67cab <- 123.0070 ms

 <- 1.0001 ms File Write delay

Frame 11 ID 6
08d1c97584c6a3bc
08d1c97584e2deb6 <- 185.0106 ms

Frame 12 ID 1
08d1c97584e2deb6
08d1c97584ff67d1 <- 187.0107 ms

Frame 13 ID 3
08d1c97584ff67d1
08d1c97585170ed9 <- 155.0088 ms

 <- 2.0001 ms File Write delay

Frame 14 ID 3
08d1c97585175cfa
08d1c9758529fae0 <- 122.0070 ms

 <- 1.0001 ms File Write delay

Frame 15 ID 3
08d1c975852a21f1
08d1c975853ce6e7 <- 123.0070 ms

 <- 1.0001 ms File Write delay

Frame 16 ID 3
08d1c975853d0df8
08d1c9758554b520 <- 155.0120 ms

 <- 0.9969 ms File Write delay

Frame 17 ID 3
08d1c9758554dc11
08d1c975856c5c09 <- 154.0088 ms

 <- 1.0001 ms File Write delay

Frame 18 ID 6
08d1c975856c831a
08d1c9758588be13 <- 185.0105 ms

 <- 1.0001 ms File Write delay

Frame 19 ID 1
08d1c9758588e524
08d1c97585a5472e <- 186.0106 ms

Frame 20 ID 3
08d1c97585a5472e
08d1c97585bcee37 <- 155.0089 ms

Edit: No I didn't use the query performance timer based on the cpu frequency, but for this purpose DateTime.Ticks is good enough. We are not talking in measuring very high frequency data after all. And just maybe, DateTime might use the query performance timer for timing purposes, but I didn't dig into the details of the implementation.

If you want to convert it to actual time, I have them printed in 64 bit hex numbers and they represent the
"number of 100-nanosecond intervals that have elapsed since 12:00:00 midnight, January 1, 0001"

So it comes out to the 312 day of 2014 at 2:15 pm more or less, but the deltas have more pertinent information :)