Author Topic: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal  (Read 749773 times)

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Offline IwuzBornanerd

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2325 on: August 17, 2016, 07:15:31 pm »
I don't even understand why we are talking about it?
We are not exporting anything here on a professional level? :-//
We are exporting technical information (and, for some of us, software).  As it was grilled into me by my last employer, the mantra went something like this:  Export controls apply to any exchange of hardware or technical information, or services relevant to the design, test, or manufacture of any restricted item. 

So if I provide any such information to any "foreign person" without permission (export license) I am in violation.  And a "foreign person" is anyone who is not a US citizen, or does not have a "green card", or (if I remember right) is even a US citizen working for a foreign company--even in the US.  I can't even talk to you about it if you are from an allied country & sitting next to me under the "cone of silence".  It seemed to me even worse than rules for classified information.

We are also discussing it because you won't find a statement more specifically applicable to this situation than the ones in frames 44 & 47 of that document I linked above.

After my employer got fined many millions for [what I was told was] a minor thing, they were applying for license for all sorts of minor things & someone told me that the government said "use some common sense; you don't need a license for every screw".  And I said the response should have been "We would use common sense if YOU would."

Ignorance is no defense...unless you are a favored member of the political elite.
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Offline x5060

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2326 on: August 18, 2016, 08:47:21 pm »
Hi Everyone. I have looked through a good portion (no not entirely, it's almost 100 pages!) of this thread and still can't quite get my question answered.

Has anyone actually gotten the Seek Thermal to work with a raspberry Pi, and if so, how? A link to a small instructional would be extremely helpful.

I am specifically looking at using the Pi Zero as it already has a USB OTG micro port built onto it.
 

Offline IwuzBornanerd

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2327 on: August 18, 2016, 09:48:45 pm »
You can try my code which I posted a couple days ago on another thread; see if i can paste the link here...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/seekthermal-how-to-correct-the-image-received-from-the-sensor/?action=dlattach;attach=248243.  I run it on my Rpi2B, running Raspbian Jessie using the HDMI output.  Taking a quick look at the zero (never heard of it before; I should get one), it looks like it ought to work.  My readme file tells what python stuff needs to be installed.  I believe the Jessie install had all the C development files that were needed to compile the C module I made, so you should be okay with just the stuff I list in the file.  Watch for error messages when you run the setup.py routine.

[Edit 1-10-2019]
 I suggest that you would like revision A better.  I have posted it on a separate thread which also serves as a discussion forum for my code: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/running-seek-thermal-cameras-(-others)-on-a-raspberry-pi/msg1941499/#msg1941499
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 02:06:04 am by IwuzBornanerd »
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Offline joe-c

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2328 on: August 19, 2016, 12:28:44 pm »
We are exporting technical information (and, for some of us, software).  As it was grilled into me by my last employer, the mantra went something like this:  Export controls apply to any exchange of hardware or technical information, or services relevant to the design, test, or manufacture of any restricted item. 

So if I provide any such information to any "foreign person" without permission (export license) I am in violation.
Ok... but what is the difference between "Export" and "provide" or "share"?
I mean, the T in ITAR stands for Trade... in that case I just fell in violation if I sell extended cameras.

I am just an individual, which use his small money for hobby, and get out what's possible from the devices I have.
Additional I don’t sell my knowing or Software, so why the U.S. Department of Commerce should care what I do?

If I buy many seeks to build my own thermographic system and sell this outside my country... then I start thinking about Restrictions.

... we don’t talk about "how make easy a bomb".
It is not evil to enhance the possibilities of your things at home.
Well sell this, especially outside the Country is another thing.
Ignorance is no defense...unless you are a favored member of the political elite.
Dam right  :-DD
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Offline frenky

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2329 on: August 19, 2016, 12:40:20 pm »
ITAR and SeekThemal in the same sentence is a joke.
Any evil mastermind would be really stupid to use Seek for his evil purpose since almost all other TIs on the market have better image quality.
Even 100fps won't help you if 99% of data from sensor is noise...
 

Offline Bill W

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2330 on: August 19, 2016, 03:30:50 pm »
Joe-C

Export is the movement of 'something' (hardware or software) across a national border, except for these purposes the EU is one border.  Payment is irrelevant.

Thermal cameras over 9Hz are controlled, 9Hz and under are not.
Therefore you can post a 9Hz camera to Norway, you cannot post a 30Hz camera to Norway (assuming you are in Germany).
You can post a 30Hz camera to France as long as you include a statement advising the recipient that the camera is a controlled item.

Software that allows the removal of a 9Hz restriction on a thermal camera is also controlled.
If your software does no such thing, this is fine.
If your software did allow a camera to change from under 9Hz to over 9Hz then you are required to keep the software inside the EU (assuming you are in Germany) and only to allow it outside the EU if you have a license to do this. 

Bill

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Offline Kilrah

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2331 on: August 19, 2016, 05:25:55 pm »
That could go far in interpretation in front of a court, but I would not consider JoeC's software to "allow a camera to change from <9Hz to >9Hz". If that is possible at all it's that the original camera is >9Hz-capable in the first place i.e. the original manufacturer (Seek) did not lock it down the way they should have, e.g by loading it with a firmware that has no way of bypassing the 9Hz limit like everybody else does.
 

Offline in.Vitro

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2332 on: August 20, 2016, 08:16:57 am »
wait a minute... you can buy/order >9hz TICs when you live in Germany?!
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2333 on: August 20, 2016, 08:27:16 am »
Yes but you must contact the manufacturers agent to arrange export licencing and register your details. The paperwork charges can be quite high depending upon who you deal with.

High frame rate thermal cameras have been available to buy in Europe for decades, just not 'across the counter'. The documentation for such must be completed first and you have to be deemed a suitable owner of such equipment. i.e not a terrorist  ;D

Fraser
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 10:34:09 am by Fraser »
 

Offline Bill W

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2334 on: August 21, 2016, 11:53:26 pm »
Hi Fraser,

That only applies to US built >9Hz cameras entering another nation / EU.  For a camera built in the EU with all controlled parts (sensor) made in the EU then these can be supplied at 25/30Hz to anyone in the EU just on the basis of the standard EU warning notice. The manufacturer may have additional conditions but that is their choice not a requirement.

Equally older US cores (eg from fire service cameras or vehicle vision) predate the limitations of resale.

regards
Bill

Offline b_force

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2335 on: August 22, 2016, 11:38:38 am »
I still don't get it.
Just because a company fails to safely lock the 30Hz option, I am not allowed to investigate it and share it to the public?
That doesn't make any sense to me at all! In my opinion that company simply lacks knowledge and puts a potential dangerous product* (= very easy to hack) on the market.
Following that logic, Flirr should be worried because they simply violated there responsibility to make a safe product.
If it is THAT easy to hack by a bunch of hobbyist on a forum, it certainly is for people who want to do harm.

Those kind of scientific tests and experiments happen all the time. I can give many examples were things like public transport cards were being hacked pretty easily and the story was brought to the public.
There are even TV shows, who brake into the airport and a military base to prove that there is something seriously wrong with security.
If you want to do it the right way, you should inform Flirr SEEK and tell them they have a serious problem.
If they don't fix it, you unfortunately have to inform the government about it.

(* dangerous according to the act, I think it's a joke anyway)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 02:21:58 pm by b_force »
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Offline Fraser

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2336 on: August 22, 2016, 01:41:22 pm »
@b_force,

FLIR have nothing to worry about on this front. Who told you that the FLIR cameras frame rate could be changed by a hobbyist ? The frame rate lock has nothing to do with the resolution settings. It s a VERY different lock-down that is not vulnerable in the same way as the resolution controls.

This thread is about the SEEK Thermal cameras. it is the SEEK product that appears to have failed in their duty to lock down the frame rate to <9fps.

Fraser
 

Offline b_force

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2337 on: August 22, 2016, 02:22:47 pm »
@b_force,

FLIR have nothing to worry about on this front. Who told you that the FLIR cameras frame rate could be changed by a hobbyist ? The frame rate lock has nothing to do with the resolution settings. It s a VERY different lock-down that is not vulnerable in the same way as the resolution controls.

This thread is about the SEEK Thermal cameras. it is the SEEK product that appears to have failed in their duty to lock down the frame rate to <9fps.

Fraser
Ok, same point, typo from my side. Changed it to SEEK  ;)
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Offline Bill W

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2338 on: August 22, 2016, 11:55:41 pm »
For those that doubt the seriousness of the export control business:

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/losangeles/press-releases/2009/la022309usa.htm

If I read it as 10 cameras for $53k, those would have been pretty basic cameras back in 2009.

Bill

Offline Fraser

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2339 on: August 23, 2016, 01:26:06 am »
Yep, its not good to mess around with Uncle Sam.

I would suspect from the description that the cameras were full frame rate FLIR Photon320's. Small enough to hide in shoes and clothing and the price is about right at $5K each.

This is why US sellers often refuse to ship any form of thermal imaging technology outside of the USA. That includes accessories and lenses.

My FLIR Tau cores also have the controlled product warning on them.
 

Offline IwuzBornanerd

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2340 on: August 23, 2016, 01:44:09 am »
I am surprised that FLIR even sold them to a "resident of Beijing".  I think, though, that we are not required to officially verify whether someone is a foreign person or not, but merely make an honest effort to determine so--at least ask; or maybe "beyond reasonable doubt".  So maybe the guy lied when he ordered them or else he is also a US citizen, either is possible.  If they knew him  to be a foreign person, they would have known they needed a license even to hand them to him over the counter let alone ship them to him at a US address.  For a good explanation of the US requirements, I found the following on MIT's site: http://osp.mit.edu/compliance/export-controls/export-controls-glossary  Scroll down particularly to the sections titled "Export" and "Foreign Person".  I tried to find something similar for the UK but have not had any luck so far.  Maybe one of you guys can find it "locally" better than I can in the US.  While Bill W's example indicates what the US will do, are there any examples from the EU?  Can't any other government put up a scare?
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Offline all_repair

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2341 on: August 23, 2016, 02:23:01 am »
When you are the only one to have it, and to have maximum advantage you can do export control and what you like.

When other people start to have it, and some maybe better than yours, if you don't go for the early adopters fast that can afford the highest price-point, you can also wait to be rolled-over by the Taobao sellers soon.
 

Online David Hess

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2342 on: August 23, 2016, 04:34:28 am »
Do not expect a lot of sanity in US export and import regulations.  I know of one incident a couple years ago were they blocked import into the US of 40+ year old equipment because of tunnel diodes and this was stuff which was originally exported from the US.  The buyer wanted the tunnel diodes to fix other equipment.

To put it another way, government workers are not paid to not block transfers just like law enforcement is not paid to not arrest people and prosecutors are not paid to not convict people.
 

Offline joe-c

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2343 on: August 23, 2016, 05:56:58 pm »
Well, I know 2 Apps for the Seek, that was the regular App and the "intelliscope" for "bullet accelerating devices".
Both Apps limit the Seek to <9FPS. There exist no official PC SDK, and no official Driver for the Device.
So using by one of our Software's is unprovided, but possible as anyone can see.
Because the Seek Support won't give answers, I tried a little bit with the initialization byte sequence and found a Raw mode and even a Raw mode up to 30FPS. That’s it, just send a few other bytes and the Camera delivers faster the next frames.
The Camera was not patched or something else.
And if somebody say, that Seek do not enough to prevent the Speed up... when they did enough?
How complex must a protection be, to be valid?
Flir told me, disassembling close to the detector was prohibited. They can't control what you do at home, but if you bring a device on the marked with their technology inside, and they figure it out, you have a problem.
However you make it, it will just be harder for people on the legal side. I mean, terrorists don’t care restrictions.
At the latest when you use the thermal core directly to get your image with high FPS.

But maybe I should remove the Seek 30FPS mode from my software, just to be saved.
I love multi functionality and am interested to get the best possible from the hardware, but I don’t want any senseless problems.

btw: I had make a comparison between the by upgraded E4 and the SeekXR.
I am happy with the result, even that was without any hardware changes at the moment.
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Offline IwuzBornanerd

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2344 on: August 23, 2016, 11:37:37 pm »
I am just an individual, which use his small money for hobby, and get out what's possible from the devices I have.
...
...
It is not evil to enhance the possibilities of your things at home.
They can't control what you do at home, ...
I agree, and while doing so might still in some cases be in violation of the rules (or user agreements), nobody would find out if we just keep it at home.  But we all come here to share information & benefit from each other's findings.  I don't think any of us nerds posting our findings here has any intent of doing any harm with or without these devices, but as we all are becoming increasingly aware the people who are out to kill everyone they disagree with are using the internet for more than just recruiting and propaganda.  If the "tech" members of their organizations decide to look for such information, they will find this site.  That is what the regulations are trying to avoid.  The risk might be very low, but we all need to decide if the benefits are worth taking the risk.

I see basically 2 risks:
1) a government finds out that we have exposed sensitive information & comes after the individuals deemed guilty
2) "rogues" get hold of the information & use it to facilitate causing harm & damage.

Both risks may well be very small, but if #2 happens, #1 will likely follow since the first thing the authorities do when someone commits a "heinous act" is go to the person's residence & confiscate all computers & "devices".  And if any code is on there from this board it will be tracked to here & eventually the author.

Therefore, in my opinion, those of us who have posted code are at greatest risk.  Perhaps even if the code does not have any forbidden feature as posted but was edited by the "rogues" to have such feature.  Putting the feature in the code makes it easiest for someone else to use it while just saying "here's what I did" leaves the programming to the user.  The thought that the code I posted could still ensnare me causes me concern.  Again, the risk may be small, but nobody wants to have their assets confiscated and the first half thrown in jail.

My "gut feeling" is that the most likely scenario is that Seek would go to the US government and say "Those guys are exposing sensitive information and need to be shut down (and on top of that they are embarrassing us)." and the USG would then go to the Australian government and ask that the offending information be removed.  Just a total guess...

Because the Seek Support won't give answers, ...
Probably at least in part because it would have been an export violation.

However you make it, it will just be harder for people on the legal side.
You got that right.  Especially regarding those "bullet accelerating devices".  :)   

Technically, though, decompiling, reverse engineering, etc. is usually in violation of user's agreement with the manufacturer, so to be on the truly legal side we would have to pay up for the better device/software...if it exists. :(
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Offline IwuzBornanerd

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2345 on: August 23, 2016, 11:41:40 pm »
btw: I had make a comparison between the by upgraded E4 and the SeekXR.
I am happy with the result, even that was without any hardware changes at the moment.
Not all that bad, but I think I see more contrast in the FLIR images.  Is the palette the same for both sets of images?  Same palette but wider temperature range covered by the palette for the Seek images (if I am interpreting things correctly)?  If so and the Seek temperature range were the same as the FLIR images we would probably see more noise.  Also, I think grayscale tends to hide noise better than color because the human eye can only distinguish so many shades of gray (or shades of color), so you have a better chance with different colors.  You may have a shade for every "bit" in the data but we can't tell them all apart.
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Offline amyk

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2346 on: August 24, 2016, 01:42:01 am »
A friendly reminder that it was discussed before here, the Flir E4 has a true 320x240 60FPS(!) sensor, and it seems nothing much came of that.

Regarding "exporting" of information and source code, this might make for some interesting reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_investigation

On the other hand, hopefully the export restrictions will loosen over time, like what happened with crypto. But laws don't change if no one challenges them.

"If you outlaw freedom, only outlaws will have freedom."
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2347 on: August 24, 2016, 12:41:25 pm »
A friendly reminder that it was discussed before here, the Flir E4 has a true 320x240 60FPS(!) sensor
I'm told it outputs duplicate fares,like the Lepton, though as this would require a full frame of memory onboard, I''ll only believe this when I get round to looking at the raw data. The Lepton does a lot of onboard processing so more plausible in that case. I also have a vague memory of reading or being told Flie sensors have OTP fusee to lock the frame rate.
Of course there still may be scope for overclocking to increase a bit over the limit
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Offline joe-c

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2348 on: August 24, 2016, 01:45:12 pm »
I removed my Posts about the 30FPS Mode.

I better be  :-X than  :blah: and get law Problems  :scared:
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #2349 on: August 24, 2016, 02:42:32 pm »
A friendly reminder that it was discussed before here, the Flir E4 has a true 320x240 60FPS(!) sensor
I'm told it outputs duplicate fares,like the Lepton, though as this would require a full frame of memory onboard, I''ll only believe this when I get round to looking at the raw data. The Lepton does a lot of onboard processing so more plausible in that case. I also have a vague memory of reading or being told Flie sensors have OTP fusee to lock the frame rate.
Of course there still may be scope for overclocking to increase a bit over the limit
Though of course the silicon die size has to be at least as big as the microbolometer that sits on top of it, so it may be that they can have frame memory on it with minimal cost.
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