Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal

[Fraser]

So the story goes that this ebay seller bought the unit for an incompatible phone and now he wants to gouge people for $750 on a $200 device.... ar*e ho*e.    He is free to sell it for whatever he can get though. Its a pity that people are so keen to turn a fast buck....kinda makes them look really greedy. That's life though and it is a free world. I will be interested to see what it sells for, if at all.

[mikeselectricstuff]

So the story goes that this ebay seller bought the unit for an incompatible phone and now he wants to gouge people for $750 on a $200 device.... ar*e ho*e.    He is free to sell it for whatever he can get though. Its a pity that people are so keen to turn a fast buck....kinda makes them look really greedy. That's life though and it is a free world. I will be interested to see what it sells for, if at all.

A couple of Flir Ones Sold for around $500 each a couple of days ago, so I don't doubt it will sell, especially as he's offering international shipping.

[miguelvp]

$350 to bid, so it's up to people to decide if they want it bad enough before people bid on it.
Doesn't the buy now go away after one bid?

[iRad]

Bummer... Since there still is no SEEK THERMAL iOS app in the Apple App Store, Seek obviously does not have any iOS cameras to ship yet.     It looks like I'm still out of luck for delivery any time soon, even with a low order number. 

I'm guessing they will probably tweet out dock arrival of the iOS devices like they did for the Android cameras on October 3rd.

Apple, you have failed me again... 

[c4wd]

A rather large bug in the application is really getting annoying. Once you plugin the module, open the app, and close the app, you will not be able to use your camera in any app, nor will you be able to re-use the Seek Thermal app (it is a black screen), without restart. I've cleared all RAM, did a soft reset, and still no avail. Running a Note II on 4.4.2 stock.

[ixfd64]

Is it just me, or are the pictures a little blurry for the specs? The camera is supposed to have a 206 x 156 resolution, yet many sample images from 160 x 120 cameras of other brands seem much sharper.

[miguelvp]

Is it just me, or are the pictures a little blurry for the specs? The camera is supposed to have a 206 x 156 resolution, yet many sample images from 160 x 120 cameras of other brands seem much sharper.

Other brands use both visual and IR cameras, so you perceive the higher (visual) resolution.
That said, I can't wait to get mine to see what the raw image looks like before they do all of their signal processing.

[frenky]

I just noticed something... If you look at dog image with iron palette.
They are only using small part of pallete.
It seems that software is mapping palette colors to predefined temperatures.
So on all images specific color represents the same temperature.


It would be much better if they would map whole palette to current temp range in photo.
Then all photos would look more like this:

[mikeselectricstuff]

Bummer... Since there still is no SEEK THERMAL iOS app in the Apple App Store, Seek obviously does not have any iOS cameras to ship yet.     It looks like I'm still out of luck for delivery any time soon, even with a low order number. 

I'm guessing they will probably tweet out dock arrival of the iOS devices like they did for the Android cameras on October 3rd.

Apple, you have failed me again... 

I just hope they don't hold orders for both types til the Apple one is available - I ordered both in case they became available at different times but maybe this was a bad move...

[imau]

Bummer... Since there still is no SEEK THERMAL iOS app in the Apple App Store, Seek obviously does not have any iOS cameras to ship yet.     It looks like I'm still out of luck for delivery any time soon, even with a low order number. 

I'm guessing they will probably tweet out dock arrival of the iOS devices like they did for the Android cameras on October 3rd.

Apple, you have failed me again... 

I just hope they don't hold orders for both types til the Apple one is available - I ordered both in case they became available at different times but maybe this was a bad move...

Better 2 different orders...

[nowlan]

It would be much better if they would map whole palette to current temp range in photo.

Wouldnt you start getting some weird glowing effects across the whole image, as something heats up or cools down?
Be better to adjust on a range, so 0-50 or 0-100 etc.

[bktemp]

The images look quite noisy and blurred compared to other thermal imaging cameras.
Does the camera give accurate temperature measurements? I could not find any accuracy specification on their page.

[c4wd]

I just noticed something... If you look at dog image with iron palette.
They are only using small part of pallete.
It seems that software is mapping palette colors to predefined temperatures.
So on all images specific color represents the same temperature.


It would be much better if they would map whole palette to current temp range in photo.
Then all photos would look more like this:

Incorrect. The first photo is using the Tyrian pallete, which only uses red/purple hues, and the second is the Iron.

[iRad]

... I ordered both in case they became available at different times but maybe this was a bad move...

See if you can change your order to ship as available, and not ship complete. Only problem is greatly increased shipping costs for overseas.

I tried to add an Android camera to my order and was not able to modify it. Wish I had thought of making two separate orders (one for each camera) in the early order process... Oh well, hopefully the wait will not be too long.

[callipso]

Mike, how did you order it to be shipped to the UK?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Mike, how did you order it to be shipped to the UK?

Someone in the US is ordering & reshipping to me.

[eneuro]

Brother at end of hallway (approx. 50 ft away from camera)
gyazo.com bac57cd16ac0bfd6ad58309e0f2d69f2.png

This image when saved has .png extension and resolution 456x611, so it looks like gyazo.com  where you downloaded oryginal image changed oryginal one 

Could you make .zip of this oryginal image taken from Seek Thermal and attach to EVVblog post as attachement without using external servers?
Which is resolution of oryginal image and which version of Seek Thermal were used-Android? It was complete dark (no light) or some kind of light bulb, which one?

It looks like those images were resized to bigger one so this is why they can look such noisy, while it will depend of resizing method used, but this added many new pixels and we have very diffrent from oryginal one image, so apllying any paletes to this doesn't makes any sense while those oryginal colours (temparatures) can be changed   

Update:

The camera is supposed to have a 206 x 156 resolution, yet many sample images from 160 x 120 cameras of other brands seem much sharper.

This oryginal image had 206x156 resolution and RGB (3 bytes per pixel) ?

Aspect ratio is also different, so there is nothing to do with such modified image...

(%i2) float(611/456);
(%o2)                          1.339912280701754
(%i3) float(206/156);
(%o3)                          1.32051282051282

[miguelvp]

This oryginal image had 206x156 resolution and RGB (3 bytes per pixel) ?

Actually it has 2 bytes per pixel but the greyscale value is used to index into a look up table that gives you the rgb color.
But the resolution doesn't change, it's still 206x156

[Stigaard]

Just stumbled upon this piece of history about Flir and the co-founder of Seek Thermal Bill Parrish describing a lawsuit from 2009 filed by Flir against Bill Parrish because he had left Flir and started a company using Raytheon as a subcontractor.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1229385.html

[miguelvp]

very interesting read even if my brain hurts from all the legalese lingo

[eneuro]

...piece of history about Flir and the co-founder of Seek Thermal Bill Parrish describing a lawsuit from 2009...
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1229385.html

So it looks like that FLIR lost a lawsuit since they were:

FLIR SYSTEMS, INC., et al., Plaintiffs and Appellants

vs

William PARRISH et al., Defendants and Respondents

 
 

The judgment and order awarding respondents $1,641.216.78 attorney fees and costs are affirmed. (§?3426.4.) Respondents are awarded costs and attorney fees on appeal, in an amount to be determined by the trial court on noticed motion.

FLIR simply tried to crash Parrish:

"Subjective bad faith may be inferred by evidence that appellants intended to cause unnecessary delay, filed the action to harass respondents, or harbored an improper motive."

FLIR patents were  bullshit? 

"After quitting Indigo, Parrish learned that appellants were submitting patent applications on a packaging and manufacturing process that he had worked on. Parrish told Woolaway, FLIR's Chief Intellectual Property Officer, that the patent applications were not valid."

"Woolaway, who authored the patent applications, stated that the United States Patent & Trademark Office could go either way on the validity of the applications. Woolaway was concerned about Parrish's remarks but did not believe Parish would steal or misuse appellants' intellectual property."

Any reason to buy FLIR products, no more  after such FLIR's statements?

Lewis's testimony is remarkable and clearly shows that the action was brought for an anti-competitive purpose.  Lewis did not “think it would be good, healthy for them [respondents] to go and directly compete with us.”
        Lewis stated that FLIR “couldn't tolerate a direct competitive threat by [respondents] because it would fly in the face of everything that we spent 200 million dollars to buy.”
        Lewis's statements were corroborated by FLIR Senior Vice President Tony Trunzo who testified that respondents' “vision for the industry will take place someday” but FLIR “wanted that competition to take place as far out in the future as possible.”

It looks like, Seek Thermal technology might be not so bad If we combine visual image to IR, but I'm waiting for more universal IR camera easy to connect to PC USB and get it working on any operating system.

This Flir's MSX made not inside Lepton module, but using external ARMs is bullshit as now it is clear they simply wanted stop others do such trivial things.
Who gave them patent for such obvious thing used for years in image processing applications?

Do FLIR provide any patent numbers on their products with MSX?

[mikeselectricstuff]

This Flir's MSX made not inside Lepton module, but using external ARMs is bullshit as now it is clear they simply wanted stop others do such trivial things.

It would be ridiculous to put it in the Lepton module. There are many applications that wouldn't need it, so it would waste silicon, and you'd lose flexibility of camera interfaces.

Who gave them patent for such obvious thing used for years in image processing applications?

Is there another thermal imager prior to the Flir patent that uses edges extracted from a visible image to enhance a low-res thermal image?
On the scale of patent obviousness/ridicuousness this comes pretty low don the list.

[Stigaard]

Just to further follow up on the patents and IP dispute I stumbled upon the following forum post on http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.dk/2014/10/206-x-156-thermal-camera-for-199.html

Some history here, I have first hand knowledge of this situation in background as an analyst; In 2004, FLIR purchased Indigo for approximately $185 million, acquiring Indigo's (prior company to Seek) patents, technology, and intellectual property. Bill Parish and Fitzgibbons (Seek founders) were shareholders and officers of Indigo before the company was sold. After the sale, Parish and Fitzgibbons continued working at Indigo. Both informed FLIR that they intended to create a new class of product for consumer markets and company called Thermicon and asked FLIR's board if they wanted in. Ratheon lined up as a licensing customer. FLIR backed out and so did Ratheon when they found out FLIR had backed out. Then FLIR sued for a perminent injunction against Parish and Fitzgibbons for (1) making use of appellants' trade secrets in the design, manufacture, and high-volume production of uncooled Vanadium Oxide microbolometers; ?(2) selling uncooled Vanadium Oxide microbolometers in commercial markets less than 12 months after respondents entered into a license with Raytheon Company or any other third party to purchase intellectual property; ?or (3) using, disclosing or misappropriating the contents of an Indigo commodity code database that Parrish attempted to download while an employee at Indigo. The trial court found no misappropriation or threatened misappropriation of trade secrets and FLIR was forced to pay >$1.6M in court costs and attorney's fees. It is my belief that Parrish has successfully proven that he has access to the IP and patents through an agreement, only after a given amount of time, or Parrish owns the IP and is licensing it back to FLIR, which would account for the dispairity in cost of the two products. -R. T.

[mikeselectricstuff]

More info here - Flir paid $39m to settle, which probably financed Seek  quite nicely thank you!

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2011/05/flir_systems_will_pay_former_e.html

[Fraser]

All very interesting reading and a situation that I have seen before.

I am very pleased to hear that the SEEK founders are Ex Indigo as that company has a good reputation for the miniaturisation and cost reduction of thermal camera technology. Very good credentials for the new SEEK product technical design, and very different to those of the Mu company who were total newbies

I do not work for FLIR and have no allegence to them per se but before anyone starts hurling rocks at them, please consider this.

FLIR are an aggressive company (no doubt about that) but that is nothing unusual in successful companies these days. They went out into the marketplace, identified smaller companies that had greater experience of certain thermal camera deign aspects and they bought them. The knowledge that came with those companies was invaluable in the production of new smaller and cheaper thermal cameras. Both FLIR and we (the customers) have benefitted from these developments as cameras no longer weigh almost 3kg and do not have a starting price of >$50,000 !  Without FLIR driving the market as it has, I have little doubt that quality thermal imaging cameras would still cost more than most of us can afford.

Along comes Indigo with their excellent knowledge of miniaturisation and cost reduction. FLIR want that knowledge and buy the company and the rights to some/all of its technology. FLIR are then in a position to manufacture those great miniature thermal cores that now reside in many CCTV and handheld cameras today. Great for industry and great for us ? You decide.

FLIR think they have the rights to the Indigo knowledge and believe they paid good money for such. An employee of Indigo, who is now working for them as part of FLIR, then decides to branch out and build similar products in a new start-up company..... who of you in a similar position to FLIR would not be concerned that the EMPLOYEE was involved in industrial espionage to forward his new company ? FLIR, like many companies were worried that the 'advantage' that they had just paid a great deal of money for, may be LEAKING out the door via this EMPLOYEE. Now FLIR may have got the situation wrong and as they settled it tends to support that possibility..... but so what ? They made a mistake and paid for it. This is nothing new or unusual. If you work for a company and then tell them you are leaving to start up another company making the same product technology, you can expect to be escorted off site immediately and investigated.

FLIR are a powerful player in the world of thermal imaging and have made great advances in the products they sell. They are expensive, but then so are many German cars.....so what ! You pay for advanced technology built to a high standard. Nothing new there. I have not seen evidence that FLIR has actively tried to unfairly torpedo any competing company in the world of thermal imaging.....unlike BMW who pursued any company with the word 'MINI' in the title !

The good news is that SEEK exists and will hopefully manage to go from strength to strength.

Aurora