Cloning a IDE hard drive?

[SiliconWizard]

Yes I built a couple of SCSI2SD boards and they do work, but I haven't had any reason to mess with the SE/30. The 2.5" server drive works, it's nearly silent and it's all set up. If it ever fails I'll probably go the SD route but for now it ain't broke so I'm not gonna fix it.

I'm toying with the idea of restoring an SE/30, and most of what I can find (for a decent price) don't have a working HDD (or if so, probably just very EOL), thus my question. Compatible SCSI HDDs are a few, and often rather expensive (with no idea whatsoever of lifetime). So I was wondering if those SCSI2SD were worth it and had a chance of working (I've heard of some people trying them on Mac SE's and the drive was recognized, but no Mac OS tool was able to format it...) Or if you have references of working HDDs that are cheap enough... (I looked up "2.5" SCSI blade server drive" and didn't find many things, Iv' seen a few U320 SCSI drives but not sure at all they would work...)

[james_s]

I'm toying with the idea of restoring an SE/30, and most of what I can find (for a decent price) don't have a working HDD (or if so, probably just very EOL), thus my question. Compatible SCSI HDDs are a few, and often rather expensive (with no idea whatsoever of lifetime). So I was wondering if those SCSI2SD were worth it and had a chance of working (I've heard of some people trying them on Mac SE's and the drive was recognized, but no Mac OS tool was able to format it...) Or if you have references of working HDDs that are cheap enough... (I looked up "2.5" SCSI blade server drive" and didn't find many things, Iv' seen a few U320 SCSI drives but not sure at all they would work...)

I'm almost positive I tested the SCSI2SD on the SE/30 but I could be remembering wrong, I know I tested it in one of my 68k Macs. At the time I was playing with this stuff, SCA HDDs were readily available for reasonably cheap prices and SCA to 50 pin SCSI adapters were only a few dollars, I have not looked recently. I dug out one of the 2.5" drives, I had remembered incorrectly, the capacity is "only" 36GB. I tried several different SCA server drives and all of them worked however most of the 3.5" ones are very noisy.


*Edit: Ok I just checked, there are still loads of these on ebay, this one is under $20 shipped, that's not much more than the cost of postage. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Seagate-ST973401LC-90P1315-74GB-10000-RPM-2-5-8MB-80-Pin-Ultra320-SCSI-HDD/253528169323?

[macboy]

Even a U320 (or U160 or Ultra2) drive which normally uses 16-bit LVDS signalling at 160 MHz can fall back to 8-bit single-ended slow SCSI mode at 5 MHz. The biggest issue you will encounter is the need for external (as in not built in to the drive) termination of the bus, as none of the LVDS drives will have built-in termination. If you are lucky and have a working SCSI CD-ROM at the end of the bus, then it can/will terminate. Otherwise, you will need to provide a terminator at the end of the cable. Hopefully the cable has another drop on it, and hopefully you can find a 50 pin single-ended terminator. Note also you may need to set a jumper on the drive to activate single-ended or "SE" mode.

Most drives at/under ~ 80 GB (ATA) or ~72 GB (SCSI) will have ball bearings instead of dynamic fluid bearings. You might want to check datasheets. Ball bearings are loud, less reliable, and best avoided.  Fortunately, SCSI doesn't suffer from the capacity 'barriers' that plagued various iterations of ATA/IDE protocol. Even an old SCSI controller should happily talk to a very large SCSI disk. You will still encounter various file system limitations on partition size and/or file size, especially with Apple HFS (HFS+ mostly solves this).

[james_s]

I don't remember what I did about termination, I think I used a cable with connectors for two devices and stuck a passive terminator on the end. 50 pin IDC connectors are readily available so you can easily build a custom cable and if you can't find a passive terminator at some point they are easy to make.

The 3.5" SCA drives tend to be very noisy but those 2.5" ones are very quiet.

[olafnz]

Hi,
Sorry to hijack an older thread, but my question is somewhat similar, so I thought it would be a good place to start.

I have a 1990's era woodworking CNC (Biesse Rover 322), which has a 2162Mb (Fujitsu MPB3021AT, 40-pin IDE with 4470C, 15H, 63S). See http://www2.fcpa.fujitsu.com/sp_support/ext/desktop/manuals/mpb3xxxat-manual.pdf

This machine runs a proprietary real-time version of Unix, with a file format which not even my Linux box can understand.

I realised this was a likely failure point, and imaged this disk not long after I took ownership of the machine (2-3 years ago). I experimented with restoring the image to a number of similar-vintage disks (all 3-5 Gb but with different geometry), but none would boot. I was then able to source an identical Fujitsu disk off Ebay in Germany - this cloned and booted just fine.

A couple of weeks ago, when the original disk failed, it was a big relief to be able to replace the disks and get going again in an evening, rather than ending up with a 3 tonne paperweight.

I understand the gist of CHS (and the Apricot BIOS does seem to support LBA) but where I get hazy is in the actual cloning:
1) If I have taken a clone image of the entire disk, does that or does it not depend on drive geometry? ie. I would expect that the image is a logical copy of the drive, rather than being CHS dependent?
2) Or perhaps it is that the operating system is attempting to address the drive "directly" and when the geometry is different, it is somehow not finding the data in the correct location?

My concern is that my "new" drive is still 20+ years old, so I would like to replace with a DOM type system, perhaps:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4GB-DOM-SSD-Replace-Vintage-3-5-IDE-Drives-with-this-40-PIN-IDE-SSD-Card/254364506542 (8146 Cylinders 16 Heads 63 Sectors)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/16GB-SSD-DOM-Replace-Vintage-3-5-IDE-Drives-with-this-40-PIN-IDE-SSD-Card/312774694344 (16383 Cylinders 15 Heads 63 Sectors)

But what confuses me is that these CF DOM modules state that they present as a certain number of cylinders, heads and sectors in non-LBA mode. I would have thought this might be configurable on the module. ie. why is are all 16Gb modules of that type 15 heads, 63 sectors (so probably compatible with my drive, since I am told that the cylinder number doesn't matter if it is larger) but all 4Gb and smaller modules on Ebay seem to different, ie. 16 heads, 63 sectors?

I am obviously not understanding what is going on, but I would have thought that the data on the CF card would not have actually changed, just the way it is addressed by the IDE controller?

Ultimately I intend to purchase something like the following, as I already have some 8Gb CF cards. However the ad says nothing about how the drive presents, or whether the CHS is configurable.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Compact-Flash-CF-to-3-5-Female-40-Pin-IDE-Bootable-Adapter-Converter-FTBX/143553365915

Thanks,
Anton

[bobcat2000]

I was shopping for a replacement Windows 95 PC for a customer.  (They ended up buying an used one from eBay.)
I came across this company who sell brand new legacy PC.

Maybe you can check it out.

https://www.nixsys.com/
 

[olafnz]

Thanks, but that doesn't really work in this case, as there is a lot of proprietary hardware to control the CNC, and the software setup is quite specific to that hardware.

I see in my research that different CF cards actually present different CHS values - I had no idea they used this format. Is there a way I can reformat them to the required CHS to match my existing image? Or am I going down the wrong rabbit hole?

[bobcat2000]

You are exactly like my client who asked me to get a Windows 95 PC to control the machine.  In your case, you want to clone the hard disk knowing that the old hard disk is ready to fail.  It is not possible to ask the client to replace the industrial equipment.

My suggestion is to take the hard disk to one of the data recovery company.  Give them a call to see if they can clone the hard disk as if asking them to recover the data.  They may take the old hard disk apart to get the data.  They will usually gave you a new hard disk or an ISO image.  Tell them that you need the old hard disk returned and intact.  See what they say.

This will cost between usd$300 to usd$3000.  Still cheaper to replace the equipment.

[Rasz]

this https://hackaday.io/project/20774-netpi-ide will let you emulate whatever IDE configuration you want, great if you need some super specific HDD but cant get the real hardware anymore

[olafnz]

Thanks Rasz. I was aware of that project, and it is definitely within my abilities. I will go down that path if I need to (I have a couple of Pi's sitting around) but I'd really like to go the simplest path if I can avoid it.

The point of my question is I am struggling to understand how the super specific HDD is affecting me, i.e. is the operating system possibly trying to look at specific CHS locations? I suppose it might be messy and complicated, but I almost find myself wondering whether that is just a case of manipulating the data in my image before I write it to a different HDD.

Oh, and the other point was to figure out how these DOM modules work (or possibly how the CF format works), and whether they are able to present as different CHS values, since the two near-identical ebay links I posted had different numbers of heads.

[olafnz]

Thanks Bobcat2000 for taking the time to reply,

I'm certainly not wanting to seem ungrateful, but unless I am misunderstanding you, it really seems like you have not understood my question.

I have already cloned a perfectly usable disk image, so I'm not clear on why I would need to take my disk in to a data recovery company. I can keep on purchasing identical old hard disks, and re-imaging, and the machine will continue to work until the next HDD failure.

However I have no ability to reinstall the proprietary operating system and control programs from scratch either, so any solid-state or legacy solution needs to utilise my existing image, if necessary by converting the data blocks in some way.

I am struggling to understand how purchasing a legacy or Win 95 type PC would help solve my issue in any way.

Anyway, thanks for your time, and if anybody has any insight on CHS as it applies to disk images or CF cards, then please speak up.

Regards,
Anton

[Rasz]

The point of my question is I am struggling to understand how the super specific HDD is affecting me, i.e. is the operating system possibly trying to look at specific CHS locations? I suppose it might be messy and complicated, but I almost find myself wondering whether that is just a case of manipulating the data in my image before I write it to a different HDD.

.. proprietary real-time version of Unix

there werent many, name it, record the screen to show where it stops. There are people like neozeed https://virtuallyfun.com/ Tenox https://virtuallyfun.com/wordpress/2015/09/19/virtualization-challenge-ii/ or Michal Necasek http://www.os2museum.com/wp/ who could probably figure out the problem and patch it for you, even more likely if you provide a bounty.

[bobcat2000]

Oh.  I did not read all the posts.  I thought you had an old DOS 6.2 PC hooked to a Mil.  I read the first couple posts suggesting to buy tools to clone the hard disk.  So, I thought if you needed to spend $$$ for the tools, it might be better to replace the old DOS PC and hard disk with a new one.

[bobcat2000]

I re-read all the posts.  I got it now.

You want to replace the spinning hard disk with a IDE-to-CM adapter.

The machine is not that old.  I will call Biesse to see what they will say regarding a hard disk replacement.  The best case scenario is that they ask you to send them some cash and they ship you a new hard disk no question ask.  The worst case scenario is that they ask you to sign up a support contract before they will talk to you.

My guess is that the machine may be checking the model # of the hard disk before it will boot.

[olafnz]

Thanks BobCat2000,
I see the confusion now, as I had hijacked a thread with a similar, yet different, problem.
Biesse Inc. are not much interested in supporting 20yo obsolete technology, but I do have a good contact within the ecosystem who has assisted me in the past. I should at least ask the question.
Regards,
Anton

[olafnz]

Sorry, I haven't previously mentioned the details:
The realtime "Unix-like" operating system is LynxOS V2.3.0. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LynxOS)
I see LynxOS is now up to V7, and still an active product.

https://amaus.net/static/S100/lynxos/software/LynxOS%204%20Users%20Guide.pdf

In previous research I found very little online even about the file format.
https://superuser.com/questions/668398/what-file-systems-does-lynxos-support (refers to some other dead links)

I did find this project (https://www.anarres.org/projects/lynxfs/) but lacke the hacker skills to get anywhere with it.

Incidentally, the PC is a Pentium 133 with 64Mb of RAM. The POST screen mentions both Superpath (tm) BIOS Version 2.0 as well as Apricot VT BOIS Version 7.07, 9th June 1997.

I cannot right now recall the exact error message I got with the different hard drives, but it was basically just a 4-5 digit number (no text). Googling for it basically said "Could not boot" or similar, so it wasn't even getting off the ground.

I have ordered one of the CF-to-IDE adaptors, so I will likely be seeing that error again soon.

Thanks,
Anton

[bobcat2000]

I found this website.  It looks like they have a device to emulate a specific hard disk for a specific machine.

https://embeddedsw.net/EMUFDD_Custom_Installation_Biesse.html


Does this document mean anything to you?

https://www.embeddedsw.net/doc/emuhdd_IDE_manual.pdf

[bobcat2000]

"... Each EMUHDD is custom configured to match exactly the geometry of the original drive (name, size, tracks, sectors...). There's no limit about the OS supported by the emulation: Win/Dos/Unix and any other legacy operating system. Depending on the application you'll be also given a recommended preventive maintenance guide, each 1/5 years, ensuring a unique 0% failure rate over time."

So, you can have a device emulating a specific brand of hard disk for your mil.

[olafnz]

That looks like an awesome, link thank you!
I imagine they charge industrial prices, but they definitely look like they can provide the solution.

[bobcat2000]

Ok.  The goal is to get a reliable hard disk replacement (cheaply) to make the machine work for years again.

So, first thing is to understand the PC.
I google for the Apricot PC.  It is an IBM PC clone but with a custom BIOS.

Maybe the same as this one.  You will see the error code at the bottom of the page.
http://www.uktsupport.co.uk/apricot/mb/aprdia.htm

Did you make sure the jumpers in the back of those hard disks you tried were set correctly?  If they were not set correctly, the BIOS might not see the hd.

I also try to find a list of supported hard disk for the Apricot PC but I can't find any.

I don't believe how the physical specs of the hard disk will affect the OS.  It is IDE (ATA in this case).  Correct me if I am wrong.  The OS sends a command to the IDE controller to read / write data.  The OS does not know how the controller access the disc itself.  The specs are hidden from the OS.

[olafnz]

The motherboard is not identical to the link. I think it is this one: http://www.uktsupport.co.uk/apricot/mb/aprtrent.htm - the physical layout looks identical, as do the BIOS screens.

The motherboard says Trent Motherboard, and Apricot Computers Limited (c) 1996, It is PNo. 13299631 (listed on this site, but with no useful details. http://insight.actapricot.org/insight/products/desktops/ms/mstntbrs.htm)

Anyway, it is similar, both in terms of vintage, and in having a riser card for the card bus. There is a network card, plus a proprietary full length slot with Xilinx chips controlling the XYZ axes and other I/O of the CNC. Oddly, there is a little jumper cable from an on-board serial port to the main controller card.

There is another version (the original?) here: http://insight.actapricot.org/insight/products/desktops/ms/mstntlay.htm - this seems to have a bit more information on hard disks, network cards, etc, but I am not sure what exactly to make of it.

I am pretty sure the error was "1780" (Fixed disk 0 failure) but can't swear to that (may have been "1762"). From memory the disks did show up legitimately (correct size, perhaps even model number) on the POST/BIOS though (but it has been a while). I have seen some other online hints that it may be a cylinder limit in the BIOS.

Generally I am not that hopeful that imaging to a completely new "vintage" PC (and installing the custom cards) will work. It seems to be from an era where the "drivers" are specifically expecting a certain type of chipset. ie. Apparently the network card has to be either 3COM chipset (which I have) or something else, which I forget.

My ultra-long-term plan is to completely re-automate the machine using Mach3, LinuxCNC or some other similar CNC controller solution. But that is a huge job, and will have months of downtime, so I would rather stay with the 90's era controller, as I have not found it too limiting most of the time. However if the PC itself or controller board die, then that is my plan.

Back to the Hard Disk geometry, it sounds like you have understood my confusion. But I have read various online resources about OS's going direct to the IDE controller (skipping the BIOS?), among other things being able to overcome various size limits. I started making wild theories that a real-time OS might set up a file system specifically optimised for low latency, or at least deterministic latency.

Yes, the HDD interface is ATA IDE.

Yes, the jumpers on the similar-yet-different HDD's were definitely set to Master on all the (3?) similar drives we tried, having cloned the image on to them. Sure, there would have been some blank space at the end, but the data that was read should have been identical I would have thought.

 

[bobcat2000]

I have an idea.  Why don't you plug the spare hard disk that did not boot to another pc to see if it boots?

[bobcat2000]

http://insight.actapricot.org/insight/kbase/ipb/unix/ipb3188.htm

"...Under the Enhanced IDE Features menu select the Hard Disk Size > 504Mb option and set it to Disabled. "

Is the spare hard disk that won't boot bigger than 504Mb?  Try to enable this option (or disable it) just for trying it out.

[olafnz]

Thanks. From memory we did try booting on the temporary machine. I also believe I tried to boot the working one, with no luck, but can't swear to it. Of course they are completely different generations of hardware.
I will have to wait 3-4 weeks on those tests until some other bits arrive, as I don't currently have those similar-but-different hard disks in my possession.

The present hard disk is 2.1Gb (4470C, 15H, 63S). So I don't think that link applies (with a 1024 cylinder limit). Have a look at the attached photos - Set to Extended CHS (rather than Basic CHS), then Transfer mode is Automatic, PIO mode 4. (Manual permits PIO mode 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4). Those are my only options.

I will have to play more when I try my new SSD modules.

Thanks for your advice and suggestions.

[bobcat2000]

This is amazing.

This is handmade!!!