Author Topic: Apple 1  (Read 780 times)

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Offline Homer J Simpson

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Apple 1
« on: June 09, 2019, 12:09:18 am »


 

Online ebastler

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2019, 06:58:18 am »
Good to see that prices are coming back down to normal.   ::)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_I#Collectors'_item
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2019, 10:55:02 am »
That was a Meh video.
Were did it come from?
How did they prove it was authentic?
And I've seen more excitement at a local auction for a flood damaged and corroded HP spectrum analyzer.
 

Offline GregDunn

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2019, 06:09:12 pm »
A friend of mine actually owns a real one - probably from the Byte Shop batch because it has the inventory number written on it in marker.  I've emailed him to see what he has to say.  I do know that we recently took it to Woz to get signed, and he had no question about its authenticity.
 

Offline bsudbrink

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2019, 07:28:38 pm »
How did they prove it was authentic?

I know Corey.  He's had the rather rare privilege of examining more than 20 of the surviving Apple 1s.  Several with unimpeachable provenance, including (I'm pretty sure) one of Woz's.  He has been involved in the repair/restoration/careful bring-up of several of them.  If Corey tells me an Apple 1 is real/modified/fake, I believe him.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2019, 07:52:06 pm »
How did they prove it was authentic?

I know Corey.  He's had the rather rare privilege of examining more than 20 of the surviving Apple 1s.  Several with unimpeachable provenance, including (I'm pretty sure) one of Woz's.  He has been involved in the repair/restoration/careful bring-up of several of them.  If Corey tells me an Apple 1 is real/modified/fake, I believe him.

I didn't read Dave's comment as "I don't believe it is authentic." 
Rather as "You guys missed a chance by not explaining how such a board is verified. Now that would have been an interesting video."
 

Offline bsudbrink

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2019, 08:17:02 pm »
How did they prove it was authentic?

I know Corey.  He's had the rather rare privilege of examining more than 20 of the surviving Apple 1s.  Several with unimpeachable provenance, including (I'm pretty sure) one of Woz's.  He has been involved in the repair/restoration/careful bring-up of several of them.  If Corey tells me an Apple 1 is real/modified/fake, I believe him.

I didn't read Dave's comment as "I don't believe it is authentic." 
Rather as "You guys missed a chance by not explaining how such a board is verified. Now that would have been an interesting video."

Ah...  Ok, I can tell you this.  I would never say (and I don't believe that Corey would either) that an Apple 1 fake could not be made that would fool everyone.  To attempt to avoid that, there are a lot of little features that are known to a few experts but would (hopefully) be missed by any counterfeiter.  I only know a couple that Corey shared with me because I happen to own another piece of rather rare 1970s electronics (a Cromemco Cyclops camera) where the circuit boards were manufactured by the same company (NTI).  I will say that there are certain features in the solder mask and leave it at that.  I think you can understand why detailing these features to the public might be a "bad idea".
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2019, 08:53:32 pm »
Replacing one elektrolytic capacitor would decrease the value by $100k.
There will be a time that this is needed for it to work which as the earlier auction result show a non operating Apple1 does not sell at all.
Someone like to become a well paid expert in reforming Sprague capacitors from the 70s?
 

Offline bsudbrink

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2019, 09:04:36 pm »
Replacing one elektrolytic capacitor would decrease the value by $100k.
There will be a time that this is needed for it to work which as the earlier auction result show a non operating Apple1 does not sell at all.
Someone like to become a well paid expert in reforming Sprague capacitors from the 70s?

This is one of the "tough" questions in vintage computer collecting.  At some point, there will be no amount of reforming that will return an electrolytic cap to proper operation.  So, which is worth more?  A complete original, non-operational example of a device or a repaired, operational example.  I keep the "members" of my collection operational.  I also keep a log for each device and all of the original parts.  I also replace parts with vintage originals (or as close as available) but still, even if you replace the cap with an exact match, the solder has clearly been "tampered with".  Value goes down.  Honestly, I don't give a sh*t.  My descendants can curse me in my grave.
 

Offline GregDunn

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2019, 09:05:22 pm »
This site (although incomplete and sometimes frustratingly worded) might be of interest:

https://www.apple1registry.com/

There have been Apple-1 clones made, but they are apparently not too difficult to identify according to private communication with the site maintainer.  It appears that some known clones are on exhibit today.  Validation is typically performed by one or more methods:

1. Owner's statement, possibly with bill of sale.

2. Checking the Byte Shop-added inventory number / handwriting against a known sample, if it has the number.

3. Board masking and inspection stamps.

4. Board logo if it's from the NTI batch.

5. Date codes and lot numbers of passive components on the board - they are known, and difficult to replace/alter without leaving evidence.

My friend's Apple-1 was bought during the time when they were still on sale at small computer shops, so there would have been little to no incentive to make a clone and try to sell it at a shop which already carried the legit items.  They weren't so popular as to be worth the cost of having a then-expensive custom board layout manufactured.  He can trace it back to Apple with some certainty, and it passes the inspection steps above.  That, plus Woz examining the item personally, makes him pretty sure it's real.  It should be straightforward to validate any true unit - it's unfortunate that info wasn't shared, but any details might unwittingly help a counterfeiter so I can see why they might not broadcast it.

 

Offline bsudbrink

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2019, 12:34:18 am »
By the way...  If it isn't clear (and I don't think it is) the collection in the background of the video is the Vintage Computer Federation's museum collection in Wall, NJ, not Corey's personal collection.  Also, despite the little "will it work" scene, Corey spent a great deal of time and effort on the machine before power was applied.  He doesn't just "plug it in and see if it works".
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2019, 01:26:07 am »
How did they prove it was authentic?

I know Corey.  He's had the rather rare privilege of examining more than 20 of the surviving Apple 1s.  Several with unimpeachable provenance, including (I'm pretty sure) one of Woz's.  He has been involved in the repair/restoration/careful bring-up of several of them.  If Corey tells me an Apple 1 is real/modified/fake, I believe him.

Yeah, but the point I was making is that could have been articulated on the video, what was he looking for etc.
I'm criticising the video production not the person
 

Offline bsudbrink

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2019, 10:47:45 pm »
How did they prove it was authentic?

I know Corey.  He's had the rather rare privilege of examining more than 20 of the surviving Apple 1s.  Several with unimpeachable provenance, including (I'm pretty sure) one of Woz's.  He has been involved in the repair/restoration/careful bring-up of several of them.  If Corey tells me an Apple 1 is real/modified/fake, I believe him.

Yeah, but the point I was making is that could have been articulated on the video, what was he looking for etc.
I'm criticising the video production not the person

Ok.  Cool.  @eblaster suggested the same and you can see my reply, above.  Them's the chances you take when you involve yourself with "the media".  I agree with your comment about the auction being dull.  I think the reason was that basically, there were only three or four (very wealthy) bidders, not in the room.  Probably not even on the other end of the phone.  Imagined conversation, later in the day:

Secretary: Good afternoon Mr. Wealthy Person.  We acquired the Apple One as you instructed.
Mr. WP: Very good.  Enter it into investment ledger A for tax purposes.
             Be sure that it is packed in a Nitrogen filled case and placed in vault number 2 when it arrives.
Secretary: Yes sir.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Apple 1
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2019, 03:48:30 am »
Ok.  Cool.  @eblaster suggested the same and you can see my reply, above.  Them's the chances you take when you involve yourself with "the media".  I agree with your comment about the auction being dull.  I think the reason was that basically, there were only three or four (very wealthy) bidders, not in the room.  Probably not even on the other end of the phone.  Imagined conversation, later in the day:

Secretary: Good afternoon Mr. Wealthy Person.  We acquired the Apple One as you instructed.
Mr. WP: Very good.  Enter it into investment ledger A for tax purposes.
             Be sure that it is packed in a Nitrogen filled case and placed in vault number 2 when it arrives.
Secretary: Yes sir.

 
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