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Computing => Vintage Computing => Topic started by: TheEPROM9 on April 13, 2015, 10:11:05 pm

Title: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on April 13, 2015, 10:11:05 pm
I'm not sure how many of you here are into vintage computers, but I though it would be good to post these here as I have finally got the beast working. That video is part 5 if you can't be assed with watching them all as I ramble to much.  :blah:

IBM 5150 Restoration Part 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvM1qBlNs3E#ws)

IBM 5150 Restoration Part 2 (Houston we have a problem) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A4tisXHYMI#ws)

IBM 5150 Resoration Part 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoCeUTnLI64#ws)

IBM 5150 Restoration Part 4 (It Is Not All Doom & Gloom) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuF0E5aGjic#ws)

IBM 5150 Update Where's the videos been =-( (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iczCX0sBhWw#ws)

IBM 5150 Resortation Part 5 It Lives (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIrR1NKAvkE#ws)
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: david77 on April 13, 2015, 10:14:12 pm
Lucky bastard! I really want one of those.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on April 15, 2015, 09:16:28 am
I was very lucky in getting one. Not often that someone I know has such equipment they want to go to a good home.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: amyk on April 15, 2015, 02:35:22 pm
Do you have a CGA for it?

If so, try this demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHXx3orN35Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHXx3orN35Y)
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: daybyter on April 15, 2015, 09:20:27 pm
I think it will only work with an NTSC monitor?
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: joeqsmith on April 15, 2015, 11:21:03 pm
Nice job!   

I didn't realize these were getting hard to find.   I still have mine with it's crazy Z80 and odd ball looking memory.   Hasn't been turned on in years.   

Look forward to seeing it boot DOS. 
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on April 16, 2015, 09:24:20 am
That Demo needs to be played on it when I have fully restored it.

I think Dave Jones should be sent one of these to repair because they are quite a challenge.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on April 18, 2015, 10:28:58 pm
IBM 5150 Restoration Part 6 Disk Drive Trobble (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLX-Em3Eis#ws)

We have a new part, looking at the disk drives, any advice would be handy thanks, they are foxing me a bit.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: joeqsmith on April 19, 2015, 01:59:03 pm
If you were not aware, all of the manuals are available on-line in PDF format.  Try:

http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/manuals.htm (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/manuals.htm)

600 covers the diskette drive.    Manuals will cover all of the error codes as well.   

Not sure the system will boot that 3.5 drive.   Low memory may cause it not to boot as well.   
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: joeqsmith on April 19, 2015, 08:19:32 pm
Do you have a CGA for it?

If so, try this demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHXx3orN35Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHXx3orN35Y)

Anyone know of where to find instructions for getting it to run?


Must use DOS 3.x   

OP,  after watching your video, the PC boots VERY fast compared to mine.  I am guessing it has next to no RAM and this at least one reason it will not boot.   



Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on April 20, 2015, 09:26:45 pm
Do you have a CGA for it?

If so, try this demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHXx3orN35Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHXx3orN35Y)

Anyone know of where to find instructions for getting it to run?


Must use DOS 3.x   

OP,  after watching your video, the PC boots VERY fast compared to mine.  I am guessing it has next to no RAM and this at least one reason it will not boot.   

It currently has 32KB of RAM. The fault with it still eludes me. I did not know that about IBM's as the minumum amount of RAM is 16KB.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on April 20, 2015, 09:27:50 pm
If you were not aware, all of the manuals are available on-line in PDF format.  Try:

http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/manuals.htm (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/manuals.htm)

600 covers the diskette drive.    Manuals will cover all of the error codes as well.   

Not sure the system will boot that 3.5 drive.   Low memory may cause it not to boot as well.

Excellent, thanks for the resources. Can be quite difficult to find these some times.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: joeqsmith on April 21, 2015, 12:19:18 pm
I tried booting 4.0 with the two memory cards removed and it hung like yours.  I am not sure if this was because of the lack of RAM or another problem.   Once the system was all checked out and back together, I was able to get 4 to boot.  This is with 576K and switches set to 544K for that stupid BIOS roll over bug. 

I have the manuals for 5 and 7 but I don't see where they cover the requirements.   DOS 5 came installed with my first 486 so RAM would not have been a concern.   

Keep plugging away at it.  You will get it going soon enough.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on April 21, 2015, 03:34:15 pm
I tried booting 4.0 with the two memory cards removed and it hung like yours.  I am not sure if this was because of the lack of RAM or another problem.   Once the system was all checked out and back together, I was able to get 4 to boot.  This is with 576K and switches set to 544K for that stupid BIOS roll over bug. 

I have the manuals for 5 and 7 but I don't see where they cover the requirements.   DOS 5 came installed with my first 486 so RAM would not have been a concern.   

Keep plugging away at it.  You will get it going soon enough.

Thanks.

Like any restoration is was completely dead when I first got it. I am slowly figuring out the bugs, I do reckon the RAM issue is affecting the FDD drives though, not sure how true the RAM thing is. I am trying to run MS-DOS 3.30 on it. Can't find any documentation on the diagnostics cassette though. I do make more progress every time I debug the machine so the project is going well.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: joeqsmith on April 22, 2015, 02:26:13 am
I looked in some of my old books and on the Microsoft site to see if I could find you a good number but had no luck.

This site does have a short note about it.
http://www.os2museum.com/wp/dos/dos-1-0-and-1-1/ (http://www.os2museum.com/wp/dos/dos-1-0-and-1-1/)

Quote
It should be noted that DOS would theoretically be able to run on the base PC model with 16KB RAM. However, this was not an option in practice: The PC’s BIOS loaded the boot sector (from a floppy) at address 7C00h, which is 31KB, meaning that it was not possible to boot DOS on a PC with less than 32KB memory.

This may also be of interest to you
http://www.os2museum.com/wp/hang-with-early-dos-boot-sector/ (http://www.os2museum.com/wp/hang-with-early-dos-boot-sector/)


Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: gilbenl on April 22, 2015, 02:52:11 am
Fantastic videos. Thanks!  :-+
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on April 22, 2015, 10:12:20 am
Fantastic videos. Thanks!  :-+

Glad you enjoyed. An engineering form means there has to be vintage computer enthusiasts somewhere.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: Rasz on April 22, 2015, 12:50:20 pm
I think Dave Jones should be sent one of these to repair because they are quite a challenge.

Why, so he could spend 30 minutes on talking how he has no time to actually fix it? :D

love your yt channel, another garbage electronics enthusiast like me :) subbed
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on April 22, 2015, 01:13:29 pm
I looked in some of my old books and on the Microsoft site to see if I could find you a good number but had no luck.

This site does have a short note about it.
http://www.os2museum.com/wp/dos/dos-1-0-and-1-1/ (http://www.os2museum.com/wp/dos/dos-1-0-and-1-1/)

Quote
It should be noted that DOS would theoretically be able to run on the base PC model with 16KB RAM. However, this was not an option in practice: The PC’s BIOS loaded the boot sector (from a floppy) at address 7C00h, which is 31KB, meaning that it was not possible to boot DOS on a PC with less than 32KB memory.

This may also be of interest to you
http://www.os2museum.com/wp/hang-with-early-dos-boot-sector/ (http://www.os2museum.com/wp/hang-with-early-dos-boot-sector/)

Nice, good find. I have just ordered some more RAM, sadly the stuff is getting really hard to find. I just bought out someones full stock of the stuff. I am suspecting a RAM addressing issue though.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: free_electron on April 22, 2015, 03:51:30 pm
this just screams 'Alley Cat'. Get it working then run the program.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: joeqsmith on April 23, 2015, 12:12:36 am
I'm sure you will get it sorted out.   If you could find an old AST Six Pack or Intel expansion board for it, you would be in.   We had those 6-packs in every PC at work back then with our 5M FH 5" drives.   :-DD   
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: cncjerry on April 23, 2015, 08:01:25 am
Wow, I can tell you stories about the 5150 and it's predecessors.  I worked in software development for IBM in 1980 on a temporary assignment for two years.  I met Don Estridge, he gave us all plaques for our contribution to that box, mine was very, very minor, having to do with the delivery system which configured the applications. The plaque read something about "since you put everything into it", can't remember the rest, in the closet somewhere, saw it not that long ago.  Too bad about Don dying in that plane accident in Texas.  I still remember that day.

The team I was on, application software architecture, contributed to the decision to not pursue the OS internally within IBM.  At that time we were working on manufacturing applications for the predecessor called the DataMaster. IBM didn't want to release a box without application software so there was a second team that was porting the DataMaster apps  (based on MAPICS) to what was then called "the little guy". Don't remember if they ever ported them as I went back to the field sales in '82 as an SE?

Customers were buying one box at a time and running benchmarks on the interpreter BASIC.  The results depended on the internal sorting of the instructions the interpreter looked up.  Who would think that would make a difference today.  I remember when the PC took off.  I sold hundreds of thousands of those boxes thru the early years until landing in large systems. 

I wonder what happened to all those PCs and the infamous Pc Jr?
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on April 23, 2015, 06:26:06 pm
Oh yes games for it will be acquired once it is fully operational. May even do videos on some for you all to enjoy  :popcorn:
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on April 23, 2015, 06:28:42 pm
I'm sure you will get it sorted out.   If you could find an old AST Six Pack or Intel expansion board for it, you would be in.   We had those 6-packs in every PC at work back then with our 5M FH 5" drives.   :-DD

Nice, shame you never really find this sort of equipment hiding in cupboards anymore. Use to find a lot of 90s stuff in school and this was the early 2000s. Found 2 nice 1992 laptops though.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on April 23, 2015, 06:31:19 pm
Wow, I can tell you stories about the 5150 and it's predecessors.  I worked in software development for IBM in 1980 on a temporary assignment for two years.  I met Don Estridge, he gave us all plaques for our contribution to that box, mine was very, very minor, having to do with the delivery system which configured the applications. The plaque read something about "since you put everything into it", can't remember the rest, in the closet somewhere, saw it not that long ago.  Too bad about Don dying in that plane accident in Texas.  I still remember that day.

The team I was on, application software architecture, contributed to the decision to not pursue the OS internally within IBM.  At that time we were working on manufacturing applications for the predecessor called the DataMaster. IBM didn't want to release a box without application software so there was a second team that was porting the DataMaster apps  (based on MAPICS) to what was then called "the little guy". Don't remember if they ever ported them as I went back to the field sales in '82 as an SE?

Customers were buying one box at a time and running benchmarks on the interpreter BASIC.  The results depended on the internal sorting of the instructions the interpreter looked up.  Who would think that would make a difference today.  I remember when the PC took off.  I sold hundreds of thousands of those boxes thru the early years until landing in large systems. 

I wonder what happened to all those PCs and the infamous Pc Jr?

I love getting info from you guys who got to work on this stuff while it was being developed. They tend to ether have been chucked out or hiding in cupboards waiting for us collectors to find them. You can find private computer collections all over the web.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: simmiv on May 11, 2015, 12:29:03 pm
Hi,
If you are still getting the memory errors, it's hard to continue with booting the floppy as it may fail..  I see you were getting 1054 201 error at bootup..  The service manual map to follow is this one..  http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/hms/HMS%20-%206280087%20-%20Maps%20-%200200.pdf (http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/hms/HMS%20-%206280087%20-%20Maps%20-%200200.pdf)  It seems to take you the check the switch settings..
Rgds,
Simmi
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: simmiv on May 11, 2015, 12:44:27 pm
Hi, I also noticed that you have memory chips in all the rows, thus you should have 64kb of RAM..  The bootup says 28,363 bytes, which might indicate the MB switch settings are set to 32kb and the last two rows aren't switched on. 
Simmi
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on September 01, 2018, 01:39:01 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfWnGW_6mC0&feature (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfWnGW_6mC0&feature)
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: joeqsmith on September 01, 2018, 02:44:15 am
Good to see you have not given up on the old PC.  Have a look at the first board I show and see if it looks like the one you are asking about.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/vintage-computing/old-ibm-compatible-pcxtat-cards/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/vintage-computing/old-ibm-compatible-pcxtat-cards/)
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on September 08, 2018, 10:20:47 pm
I try & work on it when I get time. Just lead a bussy life these days.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: chris_leyson on September 08, 2018, 11:32:23 pm
Good luck with the restoration. Wow holy crap that brings back memories. Not a bad machine for it's day and well hackable and a lot of software was still wrtten in assembler. I bought an IBM PC for something crazy like £900 with a CGA monitor back in the day. Stuffed a Hercules graphics card in and used a Hanterex green screen monitor with a long persistance phosphor, P39 maybe. Now you're talking hi-res graphics. Popped a hard disk controller in and a 6Mbyte hard drive so now I've nearly got an XT. Put some half height floppy drives in and punch a hole in the sleve now I've got 720k floppires, overclock it and it's nearly an IBM AT. A few years later and I managed to fit an IBM AT mother board into the chassis. Those were days.

I think back then the 110W power supply was a classic Royer converter or more accurately a Jensen converter which was a more efficient improvement on the Royer. The saturating base drive transformer was smaller and wired in parallel with the main transformer. Also, avoid the IBM MDA display adaptor, the horizontal drive wasn't free running and needed a video signal to work properly, the other gotcha was the two screws hidden under a label which held the CRT PCB in place, oops.

The 5161 expasion card with the crazy 68 way connector, damn, should have kept it, isn't hindsight wonderfull. Also  passed up an opportunity on original ring bound service manuals  :palm:
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on September 22, 2018, 06:39:51 pm
Thanks for all the links guys =-)

I am curently working on part 8. I have fixed the RAM issues & now have 64KB of working RAM. Just need to sort out a working boot disk. Lubed the drives today.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on October 06, 2018, 08:54:04 pm
Thanks for all the links guys =-)

I am curently working on part 8. I have fixed the RAM issues & now have 64KB of working RAM. Just need to sort out a working boot disk. Lubed the drives today.

Oh yes, disks arrived on Friday =-)
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on October 08, 2018, 08:29:03 pm
It is now time for Part 8. =-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34HgTL51wBU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34HgTL51wBU)

We finaly have it booting from IBM DOS 3.3 =-)
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: pamperchu on October 09, 2018, 01:50:38 am
If you ever need parts hit me up.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on October 09, 2018, 07:03:50 pm
Do you have a CGA for it?

If so, try this demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHXx3orN35Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHXx3orN35Y)

I have it fully working, came with a CGA card. Challenge acepted. Need to up the RAM & probaly add some king of HDD, the original ones might be to far gone to use. So a solid state solution would be best there.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: w9gb on October 20, 2018, 01:15:02 am
Now I feel old. 
The IBM PC model 5150 (5-slot) was a year old,
when I entered graduate college (IBM-XT with 8-slots was current).  IBM AT released in 1984, BUT was on allocation due to high demand.  RAM was scarce, so IBM used “pickyback ICs” (128k) for the first version of 6 MHz motherboards.

AST 6-Pack with additional RAM, serial (RS-232) port, parallel port, and clock/calendar that IBM excluded was very popular add-on card.  AST used the TI 1488/1489 line driver/receiver for second serial port.

The engineering, computer science, and business colleges built computer lab (summer 1983) using IBM PCs (DOS 2.0) with 3Com Ethernet cards (ThinNet, 10-Base-2). 
In 1983, this Ethernet lab at Univ. of Iowa had an Altos 986 (8086, 10 MHz) with an Ethernet card designed by 3Com server as network’s file server.  It used 3Com’s file server software under Xenix 3.0 (eventually marketed by 3Com as 3Server).
https://blog.fosketts.net/2007/06/25/storage-history-the-3server/

Worked summer and weekends for local IBM PC dealer.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: eugenenine on October 23, 2018, 12:13:29 am
I had a 5150PC and an XT before I moved about 10 years ago.  They were both in the pile of things I have to leave behind.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on November 05, 2018, 10:11:51 pm
I had a 5150PC and an XT before I moved about 10 years ago.  They were both in the pile of things I have to leave behind.

That's sad =-(
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: nad007007 on March 08, 2019, 09:48:53 am
yes dam it
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: Sam Hobbs on August 01, 2019, 09:49:51 pm
I have an IBM XT 286. I have not turned it on for more that 20 years but it probably still works. I probably should find someone to care for it. My main concern is that I am not sure the hard drive was parked. It was upgraded with memory for Xenix and I still have the Xenix. I do not have a monitor for it. I think I used the keyboard for many years with newer systems.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: chris_leyson on August 01, 2019, 10:21:08 pm
I can't remember for sure but the IBM MDA display MUST be plugged into a PC when it is powered up. The line oscillator does not free run and needs a horizontal sync signal from the PC display adaptor board. I had to repair a failed MDA display some 35+ years ago which was just a case of replacing the line driver transistor. I don't think the issue applied to CGA monitors.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: james_s on August 01, 2019, 11:01:31 pm
I had an XT model 286 years ago, I gave it away around 20 years back and kind of regret it but on the other hand what do I really need it for? I think I still have the manual for it, neat machine and quite rare.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: Stray Electron on August 01, 2019, 11:22:47 pm
Wow, I can tell you stories about the 5150 and it's predecessors.  I worked in software development for IBM in 1980 on a temporary assignment for two years.  I met Don Estridge,

I wonder what happened to all those PCs and the infamous Pc Jr?

   The PC Jr was a piece of toy crap!  I bought a "MS DOS compatible" Sanyo 550 instead  :-DD. After battling with their incompatible Sanyo DOS for a year I bought the first true IBM clone that hit the market.

    People probably don't remember it but Don Estridge was killed in the notorious Delta Airlines flight 191 in Houston in 1985.  My sister was supposed to be on the same flight but missed it so the whole event sort of sticks in my mind.

    I still have an IBM PC along with many of the original IBM software packages for it, including such oddities as Ryan-McFarland Fortran, IBM APL, IBM Cobol, the IBM and the National Instruments package with the HP-IB interfaces,  Poly Forth by Charles Moore, and a package of every version of DOS from 1.1 up.  I used to have a package of DOS 1.0 but someone swiped it.  My PC has both an AST Six-Pak card and a Hard Card in it. :-)
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: joeqsmith on August 10, 2019, 01:04:54 am
Hey, you finally got it running!! Congratulations!!   
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on August 11, 2019, 05:35:32 pm
Wow, I can tell you stories about the 5150 and it's predecessors.  I worked in software development for IBM in 1980 on a temporary assignment for two years.  I met Don Estridge,

I wonder what happened to all those PCs and the infamous Pc Jr?

   The PC Jr was a piece of toy crap!  I bought a "MS DOS compatible" Sanyo 550 instead  :-DD. After battling with their incompatible Sanyo DOS for a year I bought the first true IBM clone that hit the market.

    People probably don't remember it but Don Estridge was killed in the notorious Delta Airlines flight 191 in Houston in 1985.  My sister was supposed to be on the same flight but missed it so the whole event sort of sticks in my mind.

    I still have an IBM PC along with many of the original IBM software packages for it, including such oddities as Ryan-McFarland Fortran, IBM APL, IBM Cobol, the IBM and the National Instruments package with the HP-IB interfaces,  Poly Forth by Charles Moore, and a package of every version of DOS from 1.1 up.  I used to have a package of DOS 1.0 but someone swiped it.  My PC has both an AST Six-Pak card and a Hard Card in it. :-)

Still, would be an intresting story none the less.
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: TheEPROM9 on August 11, 2019, 09:37:22 pm
Thanks all for the feedback, still need to fix the expansion unit, but I have recently moved house & am still setting up my workshop. I  finaly have my own workshop ;-)
Title: Re: IBM 5150 Restoration
Post by: w9gb on October 16, 2019, 12:52:01 pm
I would consider taking it (XT 286) ... remember it when I worked summers first an IBM dealer.
Odd little machine (IBM 286 put into an IBM PC/XT case).

gb