I'm bored and feeling nostalic...

[Bicurico]

Hi,

From time to time I get bored (because I already explored the latest gear I bought or because I am waiting for the gear to be shipped, like the new Analog Devices ADALM PLUTO which is on back order until Dec. 5th).

Also, I sometimes get very nostalgic. This is due for having had a rough childhood and the fact that my life changed considerably in the mid eighties. What gave me some grip was my passion for computers. The first computers were the Sinclair ZX81, the Commodore 64 and the Commodore Amiga 500, in this order. I still own them, but they are not fully functional.

Today I am a grown man, hard to deny that, and I own pretty awesome computers, like the laptop I am writing this post on (Core i7, 32GB RAM, 512SSD, 1TB HDD, nVidia GTX880M - the company would like to replace it, but apart from the nVidia card there is not much to improve). At home I have a desktop PC with similar specs, apart from all the other hobby related stuff (radios, satellite reception, field meter, spectrum analyser, etc.).

I have several Raspberry PI, several tablets, some running Windows, small PC's, etc.

I write all this to come to the point: When I am bored and nostalgic, I start looking at classic computers on eBay...

I get this urge to buy myself any of this:

- Apple IIe
- Micro Professor MFP1B
- Commdore 64 (despite having one, which as mentioned is not in fully working order)
- Amiga 2000
- Epson HX20
- Sinclair Spectrum 48K
- Atari VCS2600
- Sharp E500
- ...

All these computers are significant to me, because somehow, somewhere I came in contact with them in my childhood. It makes me remind the "good old times"...

But then reality and logic kicks in:

1) These computers are useless today
2) Most can be emulated and yes, I do have emulators, tried them out, converted my C64 floppy disks to D64, etc. I have Retropi, too.
3) Buying these old computers is a risk, for the failure rate is high and some components are really hard to source.
4) Floppy disks are difficult to obtain and data is hard to transfer
5) These machines occupy a lot of space

So in my mind a struggle is set free between "I want to have it" and "What a waste of time, money and space" and the next idea is FPGA based machines like the MiST or ZX Uno. What do you guys think about these? Are they worth the price? Is there really a different experience to ordinary emulators? One drawback is of course the fact that one cannot connect original periferals.

Am I sick and do I need counseling? Why do I get the urge to waste time in reliving joyful moments with old computers (lunar landing on CP/M computer)?

Why does an emulator not really satisfy me? Is a FPGA machine a viable solution to fix my urge without spending a lot of money and wasting a lot of space?

HELP!

Regards,
Vitor

[daybyter]

I would look into repairing the little gems, that you already have and then maybe expand them a bit. Build your own SD card interface for the c64! Or for the zeddy. Add a network card to your zx81 and run a webserver!

There are great forums and communities now for all of these machines providing all the information for free. It's not just tun, but it's also a great learning experience!

[chris_leyson]

My only retro computers an HP9825T and an old MSX machine. I too sometimes wonder why I have them but the 3 chip hybrid processor in the 9825 was also used in a few HP instruments. BTW I don't think you need counseling 

[Bicurico]

@daybyter: Thanks for your suggestion. I have thought about it. Here are some details regarding my C64:

I have: C64, 1541, 1701, Datasette, Final Cartridge 2 (I think) and lots of floppy disks.

Years ago, when I tried to run it, there was a fault that caused a given memory space to be mirrored, like having $0000-$2000 mirrored to $2000, $4000, $6000 and so on. At the time I thought that the IC responsible for mananging the RAM IC's was broken. Back then I had far less electronics knowledge than today, so I left it as is.

Recently (a few weeks ago) hooked everything up and surprisingly, the C64 did not show that issue anymore. I am not sure if I tested it insufficiently or if it magically fixed itself. In this case, it could have been anything from bad contact to moisture. Not sure.

But now the floppy drive won't recognize any inserted floppy disk. I read different 1541 repair tutorials, but got unsure where the fault might be. It points to some possible fault in one of the IC's on the controller board. Again, that would be hard to fix without spare parts or even a whole spare floppy drive... It is defnitly not just the light sensor or a misaligned read/write head.

This means it would probably be cheaper and easier to just buy a second hand C64 with floppy and then eventually use them to find the faults in my devices.

Looking at eBay, this would cost at least around 100 Euro, though, which is where my common sense kicks in... Why spend 100 Euro on a system, which can be spectacularily well emulated? Look here, at the best C64 emulator in my opinion: http://micro64.de/

Ufff...

Oh, did I mention I have no free time, because I SHOULD be looking at the PhD I am supposed to do... 

@chris_leyson: "BTW I don't think you need counseling  " - hopefully I won't, but sometimes I do wonder...

Regards,
Vitor

[capt bullshot]

Any kind of emulator or FPGA implemention is just boring.
You've got to get the real stuff, with that smell of old aged plastic and components, stored in a cellar or attic for many years.
That's interesting to get it cleaned and up and running again, once it works, it'll start to get boring. You can make them polished and shiny and make an exhibition like this: http://www.homecomputer.de/

[NivagSwerdna]

I bid on a HP65 calculator and a Commodore PET recently... I lost both auctions but have no regrets as both would have really been a waste of time.

Keep learning and move forwards!

[Bicurico]

@NivagSwerdna: Can you explain WHY you bid on them?

See, I bid on a lot of stuff, which I end up not buying, as my bids are way too low. Many times I don't feel angry or sad for not winning thoses items. Of course, sometimes I get really mad, when I lost an auction for 1 Euro (yes, I know, the winner could have bid way more).

But what I find odd is: why do we bid on those items, we don't need or really really want?
Where comes this nostalgic need from?
That was my original question, but any discussion on the subject is welcome.

Sometimes I wonder about all the stuff I have collected and I get scared: am I a horder like in National Geographics or TLC?

I don't think so. But then, why do I want this stuf? I have a considerable collection of programmable calculators. I don't use any, except the HP 50g (I don't like the HP Prime), occasionally. So why did I buy i.e. a TI 74, 2x Casio FX-850P, 1x Casio FX-880P, ...

Why am I constantly looking for a Casio PB-1000C and PB-2000C?

I kind of know: because when the time was right, I WISHED I had one, but could not afford it.

Same goes with other fascinating stuff:
- Nintendo Game&Watch
- Atari Portfolio
- ...

If I am not alone and if people with similar syndromes know why I think like this and how to fix it, please post!

Because at the end of the day, I could spend the time learning:

- Matlab
- Programming PIC or AVR
- Programming C# and/or C++
- Working on my PhD
- ...

Regards,
Vitor

[NivagSwerdna]

@NivagSwerdna: Can you explain WHY you bid on them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostalgia

In my experience after dabbling with anything old for a few hours it doesn't take long for the novelty to wear off.  Modern technology is far far better.

If you are a programmer.... Christmas is almost here... www.adventofcode.com

[schmitt trigger]

This thread is very similar to what you will find on the on the Metrology section of this forum

There you will find similar requests from people collecting old analog Tektronix oscilloscopes.
They are bulky and heavy, the CRT is dim, they require a lot of effort and money to repair in barely operating condition. 
And even then, any modern DSO will have far greater measurement capabilities and will be easier to operate.

Yet, people still collect and use them.

In my personal opinion, an antique collection is always a very valid collection. One will have his/her own personal reasons to collect certain things.

So I would say to you: as long as you have the money, the time and the space to store them, go for it!
Also, as long as your wife does not start complaining about the junk.

[NivagSwerdna]

In my personal opinion, an antique collection is always a very valid collection. One will have his/her own personal reasons to collect certain things.

OK... I was too harsh... I agree with that statement.  I was just suggesting that sometimes these urges are temporary and can be kept under control... YMMV. 

[schmitt trigger]

I agree with you... at what point does a collector become a hoarder?

In the Metrology section, there is an ongoing thread on which members complain about their "disease".

Most of the times, if one has wife, they will quickly put a check to the disease.

I like to collect old, vintage radios. Vacuum tubes are the best, but also early transistorized ones are ok.
I have a small room, my electronics workshop is there, and whatever I can fit there, my wife won't bother me.

Everywhere else in the house electronic junk is strictly verboten.

[Bicurico]

That is kind of my agreement: I have a zone in our house, where I have my shack. My wife will sometimes complain a bit, but she has an equivalent collection of shoes, boots, jackets and dresses.

I already posted in the infamous TEA thread, as I do hve a lot of meaurement equipment.

But somehow, this vintage computer thing is different. Let me elaborate:

I have no formal electronics training, yet I own oscilloscopes, spectrum analyser, soldering stations, etc. All of this allowed me to self-educate myself in electronics, electronics repair, RF, etc. All money spend is considered an investment. If I had gone to training courses to learn roughly the same, it would have cost me more and I wouldn't own the equipment. No regrets here, though I do ask myself why I bought the 4th oscilloscope...

With antigue computers, there is no such gain: I don't expect to learn anything usefull. It seems to me, that it is the pleasure to FINALLY own something, I wanted to have many years ago, but could not afford back then. Also, it revives memories of time spend with these computers. Not rational, but somehow appealing.

I started this thread to really understand if it is just me. And as explained, other than the TEA thread, I cannot really justify this passion for old computers. There is not much you can learn from them, which you coldn't learn from using emulators.

Regards,
Vitor

[stmdude]

It's a sickness, I tell you!

I've got a room full of vintage computers and game-consoles to prove it.

Thing is, I built my collection in a cheap and fun way, and since you have test-equipment and soldering tools, you can do it the same way.

I picked up _broken_ systems for next to nothing, and repaired and restored them. Now, I was far from an electronics wiz when I started, but I learned a lot along the way, and you would too. There's nothing like tracing down the problem in a completely dead device and bringing it back to life, saving it from certain death-by-dumpster.

You'll learn a lot about early digital design, basic analog design and a lot about systematic troubleshooting along the way.

The tools you'll need are pretty basic, and if you hang out in the TEA thread, you definitely have them (DMM, Oscilloscope, Soldering iron). The only thing that I can imagine that you might not have is a decent desoldering gun, which really helps when you need to remove a 40-pin DIP...

Oh, and for your C64, I've got two pieces of advice.
1. Don't use the original power-supplies. They'll kill it. Get a new safer one or a "Computer saver".  (A lot of them fail with a shorted 5V regulator , feeding rectified 9VAC into the 5V rails on the C64)
2. Forget about the floppy-drive. Consider it decoration, and get yourself a SD2IEC instead. They're cheap, and will hold your entire library of D64s.

[eugenenine]

You said you have already used retrieve, what did you do on it, I would think you would do the same with hardware.  Most who run the old commodore and Amiga soon to be interested in games / demos because like you said you can't do much else.  Though either has options to get them connected to a network and use terminal software to do things.

I'm running Vice, FS-UAE and Amibian currently have have a dead Amiga 2000 that I someday hope to fix.

[rsjsouza]

(my reply comes after a few others had posted, thus it may contain repeated info)

But what I find odd is: why do we bid on those items, we don't need or really really want?
Where comes this nostalgic need from?
That was my original question, but any discussion on the subject is welcome.

Sometimes I wonder about all the stuff I have collected and I get scared: am I a horder like in National Geographics or TLC?

I don't think so. But then, why do I want this stuf? I have a considerable collection of programmable calculators. I don't use any, except the HP 50g (I don't like the HP Prime), occasionally. So why did I buy i.e. a TI 74, 2x Casio FX-850P, 1x Casio FX-880P, ...

Why am I constantly looking for a Casio PB-1000C and PB-2000C?

I kind of know: because when the time was right, I WISHED I had one, but could not afford it.

Same goes with other fascinating stuff:
- Nintendo Game&Watch
- Atari Portfolio
- ...

If I am not alone and if people with similar syndromes know why I think like this and how to fix it, please post!

Vítor, you are not alone. Over the years I have bought or inherited a few old computers that were part of my life in one way or another (list is below) and I understand the dilemma of having a limited time to learn new stuff and feel guilty of spending it on older technology.

It is a common belief that learning some types of older technology (especially in computing) renders a completely non-marketable or useless skill. However, in my experience lots of younger engineers miss on a number of concepts that connect the dots of the low-level aspects of more modern embedded and computing systems. Things such as understanding the bootstrap process, intricacies of bus addressing and data paths, the awareness that anything compiled is translated to an assembly/opcode realm, among others.

So far my list of vintage/old stuff is:
- Radioshack TRS80 Model 100. I never had one, but my dad and I drooled over it on ancient Radioshack catalogues. Besides, it has everything on a quite compact package: display, keyboard, modem and RS232. It is in the repair queue awaiting more patience to investigate a pesky intermittent problem.
- Microdigital TK85 (Brazilian Sinclair ZX80 clone). The first platform I ever programmed in BASIC. It is in the repair queue to replace the keyboard membrane.
- Microdigital TK3000 (Brazilian Apple IIe clone). So many hours spent on BASIC and playing Karateka, Taipan, etc. It is in the repair queue to fix its overall instability (most probably caused by socketed ICs).

[daybyter]

Vitor: chip level repair on a 1541 board is not that tricky. Lemon and forum64 have lots of info.

[brucehoult]

I agree with you... at what point does a collector become a hoarder?

At a certain point you can claim you're running a museum.

About six months ago I was amazed to find, 1100m from my apartment (straight line) a HUGE collection of old Apple computers, from an Apple I on up. Almost everything except the Apple I is working, has a lot of period-appropriate software (from office to games) loaded and YOU'RE ALLOWED TO PLAY AS MUCH AS YOU WANT. Also a lot of old books, manuals, posters etc.

Well worth the 300 rubles ($5) they charge for entry.

[schmitt trigger]

In what city is that museum located?

A friend of mine plans to go the Russia 2018 World Cup, and if the museum is located in one of the cities he'll be visiting, he may actually enjoy going there.

[brucehoult]

In what city is that museum located?

A friend of mine plans to go the Russia 2018 World Cup, and if the museum is located in one of the cities he'll be visiting, he may actually enjoy going there.

Moscow. An easy 800m walk from Dmitrovskaya metro station. Or Uber is super cheap here.

[Bicurico]

Hi,

Meanwhile I got a grip on myself and forgot for now any purchase idea.
How? Well, after analyzing the FPGA machines (MiST and ZX Uno), I came to the conclusion, I might as well setup my Rasperry Pi Zero as a Retropie.
And actually, it is not bad at all. The trick is this: https://archive.org/details/tosec
Here you will find full archived ROM sets for all the old machines. No torrent or other junk websites: direct download links for abandoned software.

Regards,
Vitor

[ebastler]

https://archive.org/details/tosec
Here you will find full archived ROM sets for all the old machines. No torrent or other junk websites: direct download links for abandoned software.

Thank you for the link; I had not been aware of that collection.

But, after spot-checking a few entries: It seems that they host a collection of application software, not machine ROMs?
That collection is great in itself. But you have to look elsewhere for the actual emulators and ROMs -- or am I overlooking something?

[eugenenine]

https://archive.org/details/Vintage_Operating_Systems_Archive
has the roms, etc