Author Topic: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?  (Read 144257 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Phil_G

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 71
  • Country: gb
  • G4PHL
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #425 on: May 24, 2021, 07:58:39 pm »
whoa real old-school stuff - do you have any of the 4004 gear left?
Alas no, all long gone. It wasnt very successful, I recall numerous corrections to the article and numerous mistakes I made... thankfully it didnt put me off!   Now I think about it, it may have been a 4040... I'll have to find the article  :)
 

Offline woofy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 334
  • Country: gb
    • Woofys Place
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #426 on: May 24, 2021, 08:19:12 pm »
whoa real old-school stuff - do you have any of the 4004 gear left?

If you want a 4004 board to play with, the CPU Shack sells a test board. You need to supply your own 4002 and 4004/4040. I bought one and got the chips from ebay when designing my 4004 anniversary board.
http://www.cpushack.com/mcs-4-test-boards-for-sale/

Online brucehoult

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4037
  • Country: nz
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #427 on: May 25, 2021, 05:50:29 am »
I read about all that stuff at the time, but as a kid I couldn't afford any of it, and living in the wilds of New Zealand I wouldn't have known how to get hold of it even if I had money. I studied all the circuit diagrams and program listings carefully. The SC/MP looks like a rubbish CPU -- I remember the Signetics 2650 looking much better. I remember thinking the BigBoard looked very interesting but expensive. The Kim-1 looked much more realistic, or maybe an Ohio Scientific Superboard.

My first actually owned and used computer was a TI 57 in 1980, after which I used other people's PDP-11, Apple ][, VAX, Lisa and Macintosh, DG MV10000 computers until buying my own Mac IIcx in 1989.
 

Offline Phil_G

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 71
  • Country: gb
  • G4PHL
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #428 on: May 25, 2021, 10:48:07 am »
The SC/MP looks like a rubbish CPU
Ooooh  heresy :-)   In its defence, decades on, this rubbish CPU is still guiding thousands of lifts ('elevators') up and down tall buildings and was ideal for small control operations having 5 bits on on-chip I/O. Nationals NIBL interpreter was a better implementation than many Tiny Basics, having a do-while construct, fixed program execution, indirection, I/O control, memory paging, multi-processing...  it was (and is) a cheap and cheerful processor that hobbyists could afford to build and expand. I've built a few SC/MP systems and I like it!
Cheers
Phil

« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 07:22:22 pm by Phil_G »
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8646
  • Country: gb
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #429 on: May 25, 2021, 10:55:12 am »
The SC/MP looks like a rubbish CPU
There is no higher praise for a CPU than this. The big bucks have always been made by the CPUs the average engineer considered rubbish. :)
 

Offline DrG

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 1199
  • Country: us
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #430 on: May 25, 2021, 03:01:08 pm »
whoa real old-school stuff - do you have any of the 4004 gear left?

If you want a 4004 board to play with, the CPU Shack sells a test board. You need to supply your own 4002 and 4004/4040. I bought one and got the chips from ebay when designing my 4004 anniversary board.
http://www.cpushack.com/mcs-4-test-boards-for-sale/

Nice link.

I have too much to play with (a great problem to have), but I do like looking at the original stuff as well as the modern remakes.
- Invest in science - it pays big dividends. -
 

Online brucehoult

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4037
  • Country: nz
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #431 on: May 26, 2021, 09:13:25 am »
The SC/MP looks like a rubbish CPU
Ooooh  heresy :-)   In its defence, decades on, this rubbish CPU is still guiding thousands of lifts ('elevators') up and down tall buildings and was ideal for small control operations having 5 bits on on-chip I/O. Nationals NIBL interpreter was a better implementation than many Tiny Basics, having a do-while construct, fixed program execution, indirection, I/O control, memory paging...  it was (and is) a cheap and cheerful processor that hobbyists could afford to build and expand. I've built a few SC/MP systems and I like it!
Cheers
Phil

Bear in mind this was my opinion in 1976 or 77, looking at it as a machine to do general-purpose computing on, for example to target a Pascal (subset) compiler at. If you regard it as a replacement for random logic in an application where speed wasn't important then a different conclusion can be reached -- it looks pretty reasonable when compared with early PC or 8051, neither of which existed at the time.

Much the of ISA is very reasonable, even good. Being able to access +/- 127 bytes (or a calculated dynamic offset) from the PC or three other pointer registers with a single instruction is nice. The ability to write back the EA into the pointer register is nice. The "co-routine" nature of function calls is nice if you only need one level of call. Having 11 bytes of registers in a $25 CPU in 1976 is nice, vs 7 bytes in the 6502.

What isn't nice:

- being able to add an 8 bit offset to a pointer and have carries ripple from bit 7 up to bit 11, but not the remaining 4 bits is ... wtf? And the same for PC increment. That's completely needless penny-pinching, and the single biggest obstacle to running generic software. I suppose the justification is that if you only want to attach 4K (or less) of memory and not demultiplex the upper 4 address bits from the data bus then you can just assume that the top 4 bits are always zero because everything wraps. But ignoring them would work just as well. Or making sure your program didn't exceed the memory limits -- any program which does actually wrap almost certainly has a bug. The 6502 definitely wins here, even if the code to access at a known offset from a pointer is a byte bigger (but you can use a lot more pointers).

- the large amount of code needed to call a function at an absolute address, loading one byte at a time into the accumulator, swapping it with the hi or lo byte of a pointer register, save the old contents on the stack, then finally swap the pointer with PC. It's 11 bytes of code, on a machine with limited memory. The 6502 and Z80 use 3 bytes of code.

- very limited conditional branching. No branch on negative (need to branch positive around an unconditional branch), and no branches on carry or overflow set or cleared. Those require transferring the status to the accumulator, anding a constant, then branch on zero/non-zero. Maybe those are uncommon operations, I don't know.

- complement and add. My gripe is really just about the name, as in reality it's exactly the same as the 6502's subtract (SBC) instruction. With both, you need to set carry/link before a subtract.

- just the general slowness. Instructions take typically 3 to 5 times more clock cycles than the 6502, and both run at 1 MHz. The z80 takes a similar number of clock cycles to the SC/MP, but it runs at a higher clock speed. That 11 byte 7 instruction function call sequence takes 79 clock cycles. The 6502 takes 6 clock cycles. The z80 takes 17 clock cycles.

Ok, controller applications often don't need much speed. 50k to 100k instructions per second is fine. And they often don't need a lot of generalized nested function calls.
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8646
  • Country: gb
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #432 on: May 26, 2021, 12:33:54 pm »
Ok, controller applications often don't need much speed. 50k to 100k instructions per second is fine. And they often don't need a lot of generalized nested function calls.
In the days of the SC/MP memory cost was a serious issue. Code and data density mattered a lot. A real weaknesses of many of the early MPU cores, and the basis on which many engineers selected an MPU family, was poor code density in typical bit twiddling controller applications when 256 byte RAMs and 4k PROMs were state of the art. I can't remember how the SC/MP stacked up for that.
 

Online brucehoult

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4037
  • Country: nz
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #433 on: May 26, 2021, 09:27:07 pm »
Ok, controller applications often don't need much speed. 50k to 100k instructions per second is fine. And they often don't need a lot of generalized nested function calls.
In the days of the SC/MP memory cost was a serious issue. Code and data density mattered a lot. A real weaknesses of many of the early MPU cores, and the basis on which many engineers selected an MPU family, was poor code density in typical bit twiddling controller applications when 256 byte RAMs and 4k PROMs were state of the art. I can't remember how the SC/MP stacked up for that.

I was there. I remember how much memory cost. SC/MP has ok code density for computation on 256 bytes located near a pointer (same as 6502 in Zero Page, basically). As discussed above, code density sucked as soon as you wanted function calls, or even to jump to something more than 127 bytes away. Unlike PIC, 8051 (later chips) there are no specific bit-twiddling instructions. Load into accumulator, AND or OR or XOR with a constant, write back. Three instructions, two bytes each.
 

Offline typematrix

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 24
  • Country: ie
    • Github
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #434 on: June 26, 2021, 08:36:56 pm »
Amstrad 6128 plus ~ 1990

 

Offline NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9018
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #435 on: June 27, 2021, 01:01:33 pm »
25MHz 486 with 4MB RAM. Even found the motherboard documentation for it:
https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/motherboards/P/PACKARD-BELL-486-PB400-4MB.html
A lot of the microcontrollers I use nowadays are faster than that...
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14476
  • Country: fr
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #436 on: June 27, 2021, 05:39:57 pm »
25MHz 486 with 4MB RAM. Even found the motherboard documentation for it:
https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/motherboards/P/PACKARD-BELL-486-PB400-4MB.html
A lot of the microcontrollers I use nowadays are faster than that...

Yep... But that's still a lot more powerful than what many of us started with...
 

Online brucehoult

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4037
  • Country: nz
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #437 on: June 27, 2021, 10:31:17 pm »
25MHz 486 with 4MB RAM. Even found the motherboard documentation for it:
https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/motherboards/P/PACKARD-BELL-486-PB400-4MB.html
A lot of the microcontrollers I use nowadays are faster than that...

Yep... But that's still a lot more powerful than what many of us started with...

Sure is.

When I was at university the main university computer, a VAX 11/780, ran at 5 MHz (commonly reckoned to be 1 MIPS), had 2 MB RAM, and supported 50 simultaneous users.

And that was the advanced computer. First year students got a PDP 11/34 with 256 KB RAM, two 5 MB hard disks, and 22 VT100 terminals and 2 LA120 printers. It's impossible to give a definite clock speed as the UNIBUS was asynchronous and after the CPU made a request to access memory (for example) if waited as long as necessary until the memory replied. And there was no cache. Something between 400 KHz and 1 MHz would be a good guess.
 

Offline cfbsoftware

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 117
  • Country: au
    • Astrobe: Oberon IDE for Cortex-M and FPGA Development
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #438 on: June 28, 2021, 12:20:08 am »
The first computer I used was an Elliott 903 when I was at Campion school in the UK in the late 1960's. We travelled once a week to load our programs into the computer at the Royal Liberty School which was a few miles away. It was one of the first schools in the UK to have its own computer.

We had to load the FORTRAN compiler in from paper tape every time we wanted to switch from the SIR assembler. I've attached one of my early masterpieces.

The first computer I owned was the 'Mini 2650 computer' published in Electronics Australia Magazine in 1979 which used the Signetics S2650 and a whopping 4 KBytes of RAM. I built this, along with a VDU, from a Dick Smith kit. Programs had to be typed in in hex and stored to cassette tape. After many weeks of programming I still only managed to fill 1 KByte:

https://microbeetechnology.com.au/forum/showthread.php?tid=336
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
https://www.astrobe.com
 

Online brucehoult

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4037
  • Country: nz
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #439 on: June 28, 2021, 01:45:29 am »
My goodness. Had they not invented .LT. and .GE. etc yet? I've *used* computed goto, but never been forced to use it for lack of an alternative.

I remember reading the same EA and/or ETI projects and liking the ISA of the 2650 more than the other low cost microprocessors at the time (certainly compared to SC/MP). The single 5V power supply was also nice.

One weird thing is the 2650 was designed in 1972, but not released until 1975, by which time the clearly better (but much more expensive and harder to use) 8080 and 6800 had already been out for a year, and the more powerful and cheaper and easier to use 6502 and z80 were imminent.

 

Offline woofy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 334
  • Country: gb
    • Woofys Place
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #440 on: June 28, 2021, 01:25:44 pm »
The first computer I used was an Elliott 903 when I was at Campion school in the UK in the late 1960's.

They have one at the centre for computing history in Cambridge. It's maintained by Andrew Herbert, the same guy that's heading up the team recreating EDSAC at the National Museum of Computing, Bletchley Park.
Andrew can be seen discussing the 903 in the video at http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/32480/Elliott-903/

Offline Nusa

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2416
  • Country: us
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #441 on: June 28, 2021, 02:59:02 pm »
My goodness. Had they not invented .LT. and .GE. etc yet? I've *used* computed goto, but never been forced to use it for lack of an alternative.

I assume you're referring to the arithmetic IF's, which were the only option in early FORTRAN. Computed goto is actually an indexed form of the GOTO statement. It's likely the FORTRAN available to him on that machine predated FORTRAN IV / FORTRAN 66, which is when logical IF came to be. The implementation was too simple to allow structure (no statement blocks, else or else if), so arithmetic IF was still actively used. It wasn't until FORTRAN 77 that structured logical IF features were added. And early 80's for implementations to reach most users. Today, of course, it's considered an obsolete feature.
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8646
  • Country: gb
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #442 on: June 28, 2021, 03:32:43 pm »
My goodness. Had they not invented .LT. and .GE. etc yet? I've *used* computed goto, but never been forced to use it for lack of an alternative.
He said that was 1969. Most machines still had Fortran II compilers at that time. The transition to Fortran IV was in progress.
 

Offline cfbsoftware

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 117
  • Country: au
    • Astrobe: Oberon IDE for Cortex-M and FPGA Development
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #443 on: June 28, 2021, 11:11:45 pm »
A summary of the statements included in "903 FORTRAN" is contained in the document Elliott 903 Computer Facts published in April 1968:

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/downloads/39396

More information about how the Elliott 903 came to be at the Royal Liberty School is in this 2011 Romford Recorder article:

https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/lifestyle/london-s-silicon-valley-romford-was-the-real-home-of-2916992
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
https://www.astrobe.com
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8646
  • Country: gb
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #444 on: June 29, 2021, 01:17:11 am »
A summary of the statements included in "903 FORTRAN" is contained in the document Elliott 903 Computer Facts published in April 1968:

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/downloads/39396
Fortran IV or 66 was complete by 1966, but it took quite a long time for most implementations of Fortran to gain full Fortran IV functionality. I expect many were struggling to find space for the extra code on smaller machines. 4k byte machines were quite common, which doesn't allow a great deal of room for fancy features.

I used a 903 for a few things in the late 70s, but I think our machines had more resources than the one you used.
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #445 on: June 30, 2021, 01:07:58 pm »
My first computer that could act as a decent terminal was an Atari 520 ST. But its video chip was flaky.
Sometimes it would become loose and the computer's screen would go flaky on me, and I would need to reseat it and reboot.

:)
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online bborisov567

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 95
  • Country: bg
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #446 on: June 30, 2021, 01:38:36 pm »
It was a Pravetz 8M - bulgarian clone of the Apple ii. It had Z80 cpu and 64k of ram. 
 

Online brucehoult

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4037
  • Country: nz
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #447 on: June 30, 2021, 02:52:39 pm »
z80!! Shirley not?

Ok, 6502 plus integrated CP/M card wth z80.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2021, 02:54:22 pm by brucehoult »
 

Offline esepecesito

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 62
  • Country: de
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #448 on: June 30, 2021, 04:57:00 pm »
I started with a Talent MSX DPC-200 (z80, 64k RAM, MSX --DOS compatible system from Microsoft--)
The computer was a daewoo that was sold around the world under different names.
https://www.msx.org/wiki/Talent_DPC-200
It was at the time much superior to others available.
 

Online ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6503
  • Country: de
Re: What was the very first computer you owned or used ?
« Reply #449 on: June 30, 2021, 05:53:18 pm »
I started with a Talent MSX DPC-200 (z80, 64k RAM, MSX --DOS compatible system from Microsoft--)
The computer was a daewoo that was sold around the world under different names.
https://www.msx.org/wiki/Talent_DPC-200
It was at the time much superior to others available.

A Z80 machine launched in 1986? Which machines are you comparing it to, and in which respects was it superior?

I must admit that I never heard about this family of machines, so I'd be curious about available software too. The operating system might have understood the same commands as MS-DOS, but it can't have executed DOS (8086) programs, right?
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf