Whats the deal with this new trend of Commodore 64 enthusiasm?

[CJay]

I've seen the videos ... I see bits and pieces of it in various nooks and crannies all over the Internet ... this seemingly growing cult fanaticism to bring back the Commodore 64. I mean one company is even selling kits for $1,000 where you can build your own???

My first computer was a Commodore 64 back in 1982 and I cannot tell you how happy I was to get rid of it when I upgraded to a 128, then an Amiga, then into PCs, and now my 2019 MBP which literally has 500,000 times more RAM than my C=64 had ... and there isn't a single cell in my body that would even remotely be interested in seeing the C=64 again much less actually use one. I mean initially, I had to store my programs on cassette tape until the 1541 disk drive came out ... and computers were NOT fast back then ... I had to WAIT AND WAIT to load games or do bit-level disk copying ... it was a nightmare.

I'm sure these modern renditions cheat somehow and use solid-state storage so technically these enthusiasts are most likely not getting the full experience because I'm sure if they were, the whole thing would lose its luster rather quickly.

The only thing I can think to compare it to would be back when I was a teenager, I had a fascination for the '55, '56, and '57 Chevy Bel-Air cars. My dad owned a '57 for a few years before selling it to a cousin long before I was born, and to him, it was just a car that he had and got rid of. To me, it was a symbol of Americana when cars had grace and style that simply doesn't exist anymore in that classic way so I had a different perspective than he had on the matter ... is that kinda similar to this new penchant for the revival of the C=64? Because honestly, I don't get it ... they're absolute junk to me and as far as I was concerned and still am ... GOOD RIDDANCE!

As you say here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/networking/what-nas-boxes-run-on-open-source-software-that-can-be-compiled-by-the-user/msg3482342/#msg3482342

"Some of us like grape, some of us like strawberry".

They're fun systems to play with, you can access everything, repair, build add ons, modify them, program them easily without having half a dozen laers of obfuscation between you and the hardware. 

If you don't like them that's fine. Nobody is forcing you to give up your fruity rip off laptop, in fact I'm pretty sure some of the retro computing guys also own fruity rip offs too.

[EasyGoing1]

Nobody is forcing you to give up your fruity rip off laptop, in fact I'm pretty sure some of the retro computing guys also own fruity rip offs too.

I assume you are referring to my new MacBook Pro, which happens to be engineered by a company that has the highest engineering standards in the industry, which runs an operating system that is far more capable and flexible than Windows has ever hoped to be, though I still hold out hope that one day Microsoft will see the light and realize what a REAL computer should be able to do and how it should behave for their customers. Novel Directory Services to this day, had capability in it back in the late 1990s that Active Directory has never even come close to emulating. And NOT for the better either... Active Directory is a nightmare and is not even half of what a network directory SHOULD be from an administrative point of view.

MacOS - being built on BSD Unix is hands down the most flexible, and most secure operating system available in the consumer market space ...

And that thieving rip-off company is only worth these days a little over TWO TRILLION dollars ... or about one-fifth of the entire US federal budget ...

Boy they must be lucky to have emerged as the most successful computer company in human history given that they steal from everyone else ... hu?

LOL - PLEASE ... don't spew ignorance like that on the Internet ... educate yourself on a topic before you spew ignorant assumptions about it in front of the whole world. It's just bad form. You might start with learning about which technologies Apple actually introduced to the world vs. how many Microsoft has ... I'll give you a hint and just say Microsoft scores a big fat goose egg in the "actually has contributed new and useful technology into the computer space" category... Windows was a late-to-market attempt to offer what the Machintosh had already been giving people for at least 8 years. It was NEVER designed as its own operating system from scratch as it ran as software in DOS. XP was merely a merger between Windows NT and Windows 95 which still had hooks into DOS in the KERNEL ... not that such a fact is really all that significant except that DOS was also a rip-off of Unix and a VERY BAD one at that ...

Bill Gates was nothing more than a really talented programmer who merely copied technology that already existed. He simply had ruthless business sense and better marketing skills and got lucky with his business model.

But today, Apple is worth like 2.3 TRILLION dollars while Microsoft is less than half of that. so unless you have something of real value to say to back up your uninformed anger towards Apple, then just move along ... but if you have something tangible and meaningful to say that would justify such a position, then I'm all ears ... and certainly, I'm reasonable and willing to concede to valid points on a matter... bring it on!

In fact, why don't you google the term "Winrot" and learn what that's all about then find me the equivalent phenomena in the Mac operating system...

:-)

[CJay]

Nobody is forcing you to give up your fruity rip off laptop, in fact I'm pretty sure some of the retro computing guys also own fruity rip offs too.

I assume you are referring to my new MacBook Pro, which happens to be engineered by a company that has the highest engineering standards in the industry, which runs an operating system that is far more capable and flexible than Windows has ever hoped to be, though I still hold out hope that one day Microsoft will see the light and realize what a REAL computer should be able to do and how it should behave for their customers. Novel Directory Services to this day, had capability in it back in the late 1990s that Active Directory has never even come close to emulating. And NOT for the better either... Active Directory is a nightmare and is not even half of what a network directory SHOULD be from an administrative point of view.

MacOS - being built on BSD Unix is hands down the most flexible, and most secure operating system available in the consumer market space ...

And that thieving rip-off company is only worth these days a little over TWO TRILLION dollars ... or about one-fifth of the entire US federal budget ...

Boy they must be lucky to have emerged as the most successful computer company in human history given that they steal from everyone else ... hu?

LOL - PLEASE ... don't spew ignorance like that on the Internet ... educate yourself on a topic before you spew ignorant assumptions about it in front of the whole world. It's just bad form. You might start with learning about which technologies Apple actually introduced to the world vs. how many Microsoft has ... I'll give you a hint and just say Microsoft scores a big fat goose egg in the "actually has contributed new and useful technology into the computer space" category... Windows was a late-to-market attempt to offer what the Machintosh had already been giving people for at least 8 years. It was NEVER designed as its own operating system from scratch as it ran as software in DOS. XP was merely a merger between Windows NT and Windows 95 which still had hooks into DOS in the KERNEL ... not that such a fact is really all that significant except that DOS was also a rip-off of Unix and a VERY BAD one at that ...

Bill Gates was nothing more than a really talented programmer who merely copied technology that already existed. He simply had ruthless business sense and better marketing skills and got lucky with his business model.

But today, Apple is worth like 2.3 TRILLION dollars while Microsoft is less than half of that. so unless you have something of real value to say to back up your uninformed anger towards Apple, then just move along ... but if you have something tangible and meaningful to say that would justify such a position, then I'm all ears ... and certainly, I'm reasonable and willing to concede to valid points on a matter... bring it on!

In fact, why don't you google the term "Winrot" and learn what that's all about then find me the equivalent phenomena in the Mac operating system...

:-)

Wow, 14 lines of ranting in response to a throw away comment, I guess you're not that easy going but are a bit of a fool because you believe the Official Fanboi Histories of Apple.

I'm going to leave it as an exercise for you to work out which one or more of your statements show you up to be clueless about the history of Apple, Microsoft, Novell and Unix.

[CJay]

C64 and C128 fans have carried through, but people upgraded to an Amiga or PC clone rather than a C128, the market back then was heavily driven by children for gaming and the C128 had a small selection of native games at the time and back then the C64 with disk drive wasn't cheap either, it made little sense to spend even more for a C128 to the average punter.

The C128 also was not heavily marketed, I went to the IBM PC as the education market was heavily canvased at that stage by the big players. But I got to use the Sinclair ZX81, Sinclair ZX Spectrum, C64, Apple IIe, BBC Micro and Archimedes, Apple Mac and IBM PC at different stages during education.

I don't hold anything against these models but I would hate to be the guy who kitted out a school with C128s or Amigas. The Apple Mac or the IBM PC would have been the way to go. Industry was using IBM PC/Clones in this part of the world aside from the media/design holdouts on Apple products.

Back in the early PC/C64 days, in my school at least, we were taught 'computer science' so the underlying skills learned could transfer to whichever platform if you were minded to put the effort in, there wasn't the focus on learning an OS and applications, it was more platform agnostic.

It was a bit of a gamble to try and predict which platform would be dominant in the marketplace but eventuially, as you know, the home computer market died and all the quirky, different, innovative home computers vanished in favour of the beige boxes of the Mac or PC.

[james_s]

OH, I'm ALL ABOUT live and let live ... I was just trying to understand what the appeal is with this fad ... and I got some answers in here that I had not previously considered.

It's not a fad, retro computers have been popular for decades now, the C64 never really went away, popularity waned for a bit and then it came back. Eventually everyone who is old enough to have grown up using them will have died and popularity will drop again but nothing does last forever so that doesn't really fit my definition of a fad. Fads are something that pop up out of nowhere and become all the rage for a few months up to a year or so, then there is some gray area, but if you look at things in broader terms, nostalgia has never gone out of style.

Those of us who are into retro stuff do not stop learning about modern things, it's a form of recreation. Someone else brought up the camping analogy and I think that pretty well nailed it. I have no desire to get rid of modern comforts and go live out my life in a tent in the woods. Once in a while though it's nice to get away from the hectic modern life and go back to the basics for a few days, disconnect and unwind. I can have the best of both worlds, experiencing the parts of the past that I enjoyed without giving up modern conveniences and comforts. I'm not using a Mac SE to track my finances, but I do get it out once in a while and spend a day playing around with old software. I can still grab my modern laptop any time I want, I can have my cake and eat it too. Like visiting a place you enjoyed going to as a kid, it triggers memories and good feelings.

[Bicurico]

The C64 is simply the greatest and most sold home computer of all times.
This means that most people using a computer in the 80ies have had contact with this computer.
Some have their life and career setup by this computer.

I still own my original C64 with all periferals and I have restored it (broken PLA, broken R/W head on 1541, broken belts on Datassette). I went on and bought a wedge type C64, a C128 and a C128D. I own an extra 1571, a 1084S, apart from other hardware.

Why?

Well, some people collect coins, others collect stamps, many on this forum collect test equipment. Why not collect vintage computer? I own other vintage computers like: ZX81, ZX Spectrum 48k, Silicon Graphics Indy and O2. I collect programmable calculators, too.

But there are more reasons:

1) The C64 is one single computer, where you can actually understand how it works. From CPU to PLA, from disk drive format (tracks & sectors) to RAM layout. You can understand EVERYTHING in your free hobby time. Including direct access to VIC and SID. Sure, you can program a modern PC with C, C++, Python, Java, etc. But you will never 100% understand what is going on. What I have learned due to the C64 served me well to understand the theory behind many of the PC technologies.

2) Some people are sentimental, others are not. I am a sentimental person and my life is filled with big losses. My mother died when I was 13. That year my father bought me the C64. Not to make up for it, of course, but I know he spent a lot of hard earned money to give me something to keep my mind busy in these troubled times. I am not sure if he ever understood how important that was for me. I won't go into details of my life story, but yes, the C64 has had a major impact on my life. How could I not own one (or a few of them)?

3) Some people would have loved to have some particular vintage computer (or other stuff), but could not afford it back then. Now, as a grown up, they can. And some will buy them to see what they missed out.

4) Restoring and repairing vintage gear is really satisfying as a hobby. Not too complex, but with some degree of dificulty. The reward can be great: a C64 looking new and fully working!

5) Dads wanting to show their kids how gaming was in the 80ies.

6) Games were not bad at all! While today you have amazing games like GTA V, RDR2, etc., I often don't have the patience to go through a whole training course (which is what the first level normally is). On a C64 you switch it on and load a game and you are ready to go.

7) Collecting vintage computers is an investment: prices are going up, as there are fewer devices available and the demand is increasing.

Hope that gives enough reasons.

And yes: a modern PC is no comparison to the C64 in terms of CPU, memory, etc. But that is not the point.
And yes: VICE can 99.99% emulate all aspects of a C64. But the experience is not the same, staring with the missing keyboard labels.

Regards,
Vitor

PS: It annoys me a lot when a thread goes offtopic with rants. Please stick to the subject and be polite.

[Alex Eisenhut]

Anyone know where I can buy a PDP 11/70? It's tax time!

[Alex Eisenhut]

Oh and on a more serious note, the vintage computing world allows
1) learning new things as people create new peripherals for the old machines
2) same but for creating replacement parts in CPLDs or FPGA
3) allows a cottage industry for some people to make pocket money with their hobby, ie selling parts or even making new software like 8 Bit Guy

[Alex Eisenhut]

Please imagine that I am typing the replies on this

[EasyGoing1]

Wow, 14 lines of ranting in response to a throw away comment, I guess you're not that easy going but are a bit of a fool because you believe the Official Fanboi Histories of Apple.

I'm going to leave it as an exercise for you to work out which one or more of your statements show you up to be clueless about the history of Apple, Microsoft, Novell and Unix.

I was born in 1970, I LIVED the history. I was a Novel CNE in the mid 90's. I actually know how Novel Directory Service excelled in areas that mattered and Active Directory is a mere shadow of what NDS was. I've been a network engineer for 25 years.

I stand by every word I said ... unless you care to quote me and then offer evidence that shows I'm wrong. I'm a grown up, I can admit when I'm wrong ... so please, enlighten us.

Facts: Machintosh had a GUI YEARS before Microsoft. I know because I was there.
DOS is a rip off of Unix and Windows is a rip off of Apples GUI. Xerox actually had the first GUI in an operating system called ALTO back in 1973. Apple brought the GUI to the main stream and infected the education system with their computers as a marketing plan...

Look at technologies like SCSI, Firewire, USB and even Thunderbolt ... look at who brought those technologies into the main stream ... it wasn't Microsoft, know that!

And not that it matters, but I hated apple until Steve Jobs re-designed their OS building it on BSD Unix. That was during his time away from Apple after the board fired him... but then a few years later brought him back because they were on the verge of bankruptcy ... after they brought him back, he brought with him his new BSD based OS and shortly after that they went to the Intel processor. Thats when I started using a mac exclusively. I was tired of all the hours I had to spend keeping my Windows machine running properly. I needed a real computer that didn't suffer from winrot (its a real thing ... look it up) so that I spend more time helping my clients. And Ive never gone back.

Any Network Engineer worth his salt usually has a MacBook Pro as his main computer ... because Macs are serious operating systems and can do things that Windows can't.

PERIOD!

[EasyGoing1]

Back in the early PC/C64 days, in my school at least, we were taught 'computer science' so the underlying skills learned could transfer to whichever platform if you were minded to put the effort in, there wasn't the focus on learning an OS and applications, it was more platform agnostic.

When I was in Jr. High, computer classes used Vic 20s and they taught some basic programming. In high school, I remember learning a programming language called "FROG" or something like that. It was different ... weird ... very high-level language ... almost natural linguistic terms that you used to make it do things... but it was also laser-focused on being a language intended to create graphics and not much else. More of a novelty in my opinion.

In college, when I took electronics ... during the digital electronics portions of that degree we had to learn machine language in hex on Motorola 68000 processors. They had these devices where you put the chip into a socket and it had an LED-based display much like what you would see in an HP calculator from the early 70s. and it had 16 main keys on it ... 0-9 and A-F and you coded programs one hex string at a time. Then when you got your program loaded into it, you executed it to see if you did it right or not. I was definitely about as RAW as you could get in terms of learning the fundamentals of computers. We even had a full semester of boolean algebra after the semester on logic gates - or maybe both were taught in the same semester ... can't remember but I do remember it lasting a long time, and our instructor was an absolute idiot. He was a guy in his 30's who started teaching because he couldn't cut it in the real world actually doing things with the technology ... a real piece of work that guy... several students petitioned the college to fire him because he was a liability for us students ... he didn't know the material, he couldn't answer questions ... he was worthless.

[EasyGoing1]

Eventually everyone who is old enough to have grown up using them will have died and popularity will drop again

LOL - you youngsters ... you seriously make me laugh. I'm only 50 .. I've got AT LEAST 30 to 40 good years left in me ... I'm not gonna be dying anytime soon ... statistically that is. I mean I could get hit by a bus tomorrow, but my generation (Gex X) has still got quite a few miles left in them. 

:-)

but nothing does last forever so that doesn't really fit my definition of a fad. Fads are something that pop up out of nowhere and become all the rage for a few months up to a year or so, then there is some gray area, but if you look at things in broader terms, nostalgia has never gone out of style.

Well, I'm sure that there are still surfers who live at the beach who are unemployed and still wear VANS with checkers on the side of them ... but that style was still just a fad in the 80's. The reason I'm calling this C=64 thing a fad is because prior to just a few years ago, there was no mention of bringing back the C=64 nor was there any cult following of that platform ... none that had a voice out in the mainstream anyway. Sure there have always been people who have liked and used them since they were first sold, but not on this kind of scale which is why I'm calling it a fad ... and it will die as fads do once the majority of those people exhaust all they can from the platform and realize it's not very useful - and I KNOW there will be exceptions ... but the cult following will fade and it will cease to be a fad when that happens.

This is my opinion ... so please ... feel free to think I'm an idiot, you wouldn't be the first ... and when the facts end up proving I am an idiot, ill be the first one to agree with you.  :-)

Those of us who are into retro stuff do not stop learning about modern things, it's a form of recreation. Someone else brought up the camping analogy and I think that pretty well nailed it. I have no desire to get rid of modern comforts and go live out my life in a tent in the woods. Once in a while though it's nice to get away from the hectic modern life and go back to the basics for a few days, disconnect and unwind. I can have the best of both worlds, experiencing the parts of the past that I enjoyed without giving up modern conveniences and comforts. I'm not using a Mac SE to track my finances, but I do get it out once in a while and spend a day playing around with old software. I can still grab my modern laptop any time I want, I can have my cake and eat it too. Like visiting a place you enjoyed going to as a kid, it triggers memories and good feelings.

I can respect that and I can comprehend it too. To each their own - absolutely! I don't begrudge people what makes them happy. Just not my cup of tea is all ... and no where in my posts have i ever suggested that people should not be doing this ... I merely wanted to understand the appeal in it.

Mike

[EasyGoing1]

The C64 is simply the greatest and most sold home computer of all times.

No argument there‼

This means that most people using a computer in the 80ies have had contact with this computer.

I just turned 50 less than a year ago... I was 12 when I got my C=64 ... I'm not gonna be 80 for a few more decades yet ...

I still own my original C64 with all periferals and I have restored it (broken PLA, broken R/W head on 1541, broken belts on Datassette). I went on and bought a wedge type C64, a C128 and a C128D. I own an extra 1571, a 1084S, apart from other hardware.

Why?

Well, some people collect coins, others collect stamps, many on this forum collect test equipment. Why not collect vintage computer? I own other vintage computers like: ZX81, ZX Spectrum 48k, Silicon Graphics Indy and O2. I collect programmable calculators, too.

My favorite calculator of all time was the HP 16-C ... I used it in my junior college days until it got stolen and I couldn't replace it cause HP stopped making them for some reason (to my knowledge they are STILL making and selling the 12C for some reason ... why not the 16C? HU HP? WASSUP WITH THAT? :-) ... The 48Gx was nice too.  I love RPN ... just feels more natural in my brain for some reason.

But there are more reasons:

1) The C64 is one single computer, where you can actually understand how it works. From CPU to PLA, from disk drive format (tracks & sectors) to RAM layout. You can understand EVERYTHING in your free hobby time. Including direct access to VIC and SID. Sure, you can program a modern PC with C, C++, Python, Java, etc. But you will never 100% understand what is going on. What I have learned due to the C64 served me well to understand the theory behind many of the PC technologies.

I would take exception to that comment but only to a point. When I write Java code, I could break down for you what the Java interpreter actually does under the hood. I know it interprets the code into machine language and it interfaces with the operating system's kernel which then interfaces with the drivers that exist between it and the hardware. Where that detail stops, of course, is in the actual explanation of what the drivers are doing with the hardware they support ... what I do know is that at the lowest level, that software is feeding instructions to other processors (in the case of a graphics driver) or sending out commands over a USB port or throwing packets out onto the NIC ... and my Java program would most definitely be supplying those functions with what they need to know in order to do their job so that everything flows along nicely.

I've never directly coded the hardware in a C=64, but I have written directly to the sectors of the 1571 floppy before with a make-shift database program I made in 1987 ... I never heard of SQL until about 1997.

2) Some people are sentimental, others are not. I am a sentimental person and my life is filled with big losses. My mother died when I was 13. That year my father bought me the C64. Not to make up for it, of course, but I know he spent a lot of hard-earned money to give me something to keep my mind busy in these troubled times. I am not sure if he ever understood how important that was for me. I won't go into details of my life story, but yes, the C64 has had a major impact on my life. How could I not own one (or a few of them)?

Your father was a good man, no question about it! And sorry you had to experience that kind of loss at such a young age ... that had to be extremely difficult and without question, it altered your life and your development and is very core to who you are now. And it sounds like your dad stepped up and did what every decent father should do in that situation so thank god you had him.

And THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT IT ... I would NEVER have been as successful in my career as I have been had I not had the Commodore 64.  Elon Musk also had a C=64 as his first computer ... and look at how successful he is. But for me, personally, it was a tool, not a friend.  :-)

4) Restoring and repairing vintage gear is really satisfying as a hobby. Not too complex, but with some degree of dificulty. The reward can be great: a C64 looking new and fully working!

I can definitely see the appeal in that - absolutely!

5) Dads wanting to show their kids how gaming was in the 80ies.

I spared my kids the "when I was your age" talks because I remember how much I hated them when I was a kid.

6) Games were not bad at all! While today you have amazing games like GTA V, RDR2, etc., I often don't have the patience to go through a whole training course (which is what the first level normally is). On a C64 you switch it on and load a game and you are ready to go.

Then I don't recommend EVER trying World of Warcraft if you lack the patience to learn something that has infinite layers in infinite directions ... HOWEVER, World of Warcraft does what no game ever did before it ... the first time I was in a live 40 man raid on Molten Core ... I was pinging off the walls because it was just so intense and the success or failure of that 40 man raid depended on each person knowing their character, knowing their skills, and implementing their skills properly and with the right timing ... because 1 person screwing up could and did wipe the whole raid.  It is an INTENSE way to game where interconnecting with other people becomes mandatory ... so it can be engaged as a loner sport, but when you want the real marrow from the game, you have be socialized with others. And for THAT, I think WOW is amazing.

7) Collecting vintage computers is an investment: prices are going up, as there are fewer devices available and the demand is increasing.

as a general rule, I tell people that electronics are NEVER an investment so buy them for the service they offer you if you need or want that service, but by no means should you ever consider the money you spend on electronics as an investment. It's more like going to vegas with your spare cash that you deemed as cash you could lose without consequence.

What you're talking about is more like antiquing or any collector sport where supply and demand change the true monetary value of the thing being sought after.

Hope that gives enough reasons.

YES, well done sir! That was indeed insightful for me and I appreciate you taking the time to write it.

And yes: a modern PC is no comparison to the C64 in terms of CPU, memory, etc. But that is not the point.

This MacBook Pro that I bought last month has 32 gigs of ram ... that is literally 500,000 times more ram than my first computer had (the C=64). Could you imagine how much that amount of ram would have cost back in the 80's?  I'm thinking probably in the billions!

And yes: VICE can 99.99% emulate all aspects of a C64. But the experience is not the same, staring with the missing keyboard labels.

Regards,
Vitor

PS: It annoys me a lot when a thread goes offtopic with rants. Please stick to the subject and be polite.

Sorry, but when people say stupid and ignorant things, I have to post corrections because I'm not a fan of ignorance breeding ignorance ... someone has to set the record straight or we'll just end up with a bunch of stupid people on the Internet saying a bunch of ignorant things ... and I'm not ok with that! Not on my watch at least and certainly not on my thread!

[MIS42N]

I still say that the transistor was the one invention (or discovery depending on how you look at it) that changed the human race in such a phenomenal way, that no other technology invention has even come close to that claim

A bold statement. Are you dismissing the steam engine, the electric generator, or even the screwdriver (favoured by Witold Rybczynski). And computers predated the transistor and are the real game changer, one wonders if transistors hadn't been invented would an alternate technology have taken its place. Cold cathode valves, optic switches, who knows.

I had an interesting work exercise interfacing a C64 with a packet switching network via 2400 baud modem. Just the parallel port and bit bashing. Some of the input had to go to the printer. The printer was fussy about timing so the program had to estimate how long a carriage return would take. Amazing it ever worked. I really loved doing that sort of project, pushing the 6502 hard and doing real work. Today's systems are so wasteful of resources.

I agree the Apple ecosystem has some benefits compared with Micro$loth, but I use MS because it's cheap. This machine still running W7, paid $250 many years ago. Latest machine is an i7 with W10, monitor, keyboard mouse SSD terabyte drive etc cost $600 a year ago second hand. It just ran out of warranty. Can't get that bang for buck from Apple. But I recommend Apple to anyone with more jingle than brains, it does look after them.

[james_s]

I agree the Apple ecosystem has some benefits compared with Micro$loth, but I use MS because it's cheap. This machine still running W7, paid $250 many years ago. Latest machine is an i7 with W10, monitor, keyboard mouse SSD terabyte drive etc cost $600 a year ago second hand. It just ran out of warranty. Can't get that bang for buck from Apple. But I recommend Apple to anyone with more jingle than brains, it does look after them.

Plenty of very intelligent people out there who just don't know computers or have any interest in what goes on under the hood. I don't think it's fair to suggest they're low on brains, they just have brains more optimized for or occupied with other things. I don't fault them for that.

[MIS42N]

Plenty of very intelligent people out there who just don't know computers or have any interest in what goes on under the hood. I don't think it's fair to suggest they're low on brains, they just have brains more optimized for or occupied with other things. I don't fault them for that.

Yes, it wasn't very kind of me. And you said what I meant - Apple is good for people who don't care how a computer works but want a reliable tool and are prepared to pay a premium for the benefit. Unfortunately Microsoft seem to think people have time to learn new ways of doing old things, so every 6 months an icon changes, a menu item moves, etc. Maybe it will get so bad people will find that Linux is moving in the right direction, becoming more user friendly and move away from M$. Linux has a little way to go. But with many people using computers as their connection to the net, and Firefox, Libre Office, Thunderbird providing most of their needs, maybe Linux will take over. At one time their was only one computer company - IBM. The rest were also ran. Maybe M$ will go the same way.

[Shock]

I've seen the videos ... I see bits and pieces of it in various nooks and crannies all over the Internet ... this seemingly growing cult fanaticism to bring back the Commodore 64

Sorry, but when people say stupid and ignorant things, I have to post corrections because I'm not a fan of ignorance breeding ignorance ... someone has to set the record straight or we'll just end up with a bunch of stupid people on the Internet saying a bunch of ignorant things ... and I'm not ok with that! Not on my watch at least and certainly not on my thread!

Bit like the pot calling the kettle black I think. Don't reply to me, I'm just pointing out it's not "your" thread you just asked for community input. If you get a difference of opinion or if people think you are ranting they might start giving you subtle hints (like this post). This is not a call to arms to justify your opinion all over again, it's just that your looking a lot like inciting the whole thing soliciting opinion and then doubling down on those who disagree. So again people can take or leave opinion so it's just best to state your case (not about OS wars) and then move on.

[james_s]

Yes, it wasn't very kind of me. And you said what I meant - Apple is good for people who don't care how a computer works but want a reliable tool and are prepared to pay a premium for the benefit. Unfortunately Microsoft seem to think people have time to learn new ways of doing old things, so every 6 months an icon changes, a menu item moves, etc. Maybe it will get so bad people will find that Linux is moving in the right direction, becoming more user friendly and move away from M$. Linux has a little way to go. But with many people using computers as their connection to the net, and Firefox, Libre Office, Thunderbird providing most of their needs, maybe Linux will take over. At one time their was only one computer company - IBM. The rest were also ran. Maybe M$ will go the same way.

I don't want to totally hijack this thread but for many years I really liked Windows. 9x had warts but they were an immense improvement over 3.1 and NT4. Win2k was superb and after a few patches and tweaks XP was quite good as well. Vista got a bad rap mostly due to the hardware most people owned not being up to the task but once that caught up it was actually quite solid. Win7 was essentially Vista with a few tweaks and improvements and was excellent. Win8 was... well my impression of it was I didn't know what the hell they were thinking but it was "Windows" in name only and virtually unusable. Win10 fixed many things but made other things even worse and was a steaming turd when initially shoved down everyone's throats, the first thing that comes to mind whenever I think of it now is the endless stream of updates which are a nuisance.

My employer issued laptop is a Macbook, overall I quite like the OS, it's essentially a full Unix system with a very polished UI on top of it, I spend quite a bit of time in a bash shell familiar to any Linux users. Unfortunately the lack of hardware choices is what really bothers me with that. I don't even mind the price, I keep my computers for a long time and I could afford it, but there are just too many flaws in their offerings and no viable alternatives for me to spend my own money on one. The MBP I have sacrifices too much to be thinner than necessary. The battery life is not stellar, the complete lack of any ports besides USB-C and a headphone jack is obnoxious and I am forever using dongles for everything. The keyboard is crap, it takes nothing more than a tiny grain of debris to make a key start missing strokes. The touchpad is absurdly huge, it constantly gets in the way and I only ever use about 1/4 of the area in one of the corners. The touchbar is also a useless gimmick, I really wanted to like that because I love OLED displays in general but a few years in and I'm firmly in the camp of wishing I had a row of physical function keys like the older models. I bump the touchbar accidentally more often than I deliberately use it, and one of these days I need to take it in for service because there's been a flickering white square on one side for a long time now. It beats having to use Win10 but I wouldn't by one for myself.

[Rasz]

strangely on topic:

[RJSV]

EEE-GADDS ! Just look at your response volume here!

  I liked the full comprehension you can achieve, or nearly full, plus I've always viewed the C-64 as a showcase for the 6502 processor.

  I had seen and used the Z-80 processor and gained a bit of relief: Saw my C-64 with 6502 as a bit of 'relief', from formality... Yes that's the term I've been reaching for,  "A BREAK FROM FORMALITY".
HAH!

[Sky Shark]

C64 is only the worlds second best Personal Computer of all time (C128 is of course THE best Personal Computer of all time ), okay I am obviously a true die hard Commodore fan

I still own several C64s & C128s and use them regularly.  There is something about seeing a piece of technology pushed to the Nth degree of its limitations   

[ZeeCaptain]

I feel called to the blackboard, because I also noticed more and more C64 popping up in in my infobubble and got infected with retro computing. I stumbled upon Jan Beta YT channel and he actually made me realize that it's not that hard to fix C64 and there are people still vastly invested in different projects revolving around this 8-bit grandpa.

For a couple of years I occasinally reminded myself about Commodore when talking with my friends or coworkers. They all loved it and had good memories, nostalgia kicked in often - "those were the times". For me it's a long overdue plan to actually get a working one. I was thinking about either finding my old C64 and fixing it or buying one, just to have it and be able to show my daughter how computers looked and worked like when I was her age. Also it's fairly simple construction by todays standards, so it's easier to learn and comprehend how computers, digital electronics, etc. works. As someone mentioned before, all the knowlegde is available online, there is a community still fixing, modding, developing new stuff, even new games are written and demoscene is still active, pushing ~40 year old hardware to its limits.

Anyway... after a short investigation with my brother we concluded that our old Commodore should still be somewhere in our family home, so I went there and found it. It was just lying there in the basement for the last 27 years. My girlfriend rolled her eyes when she saw what I brought with me, but ultimately she admitted to have fond memories of plaing Giana Sisters on C64. Right now I'm searching for 6526A CIA chip and hopefully that's all that was broken and soon I can bring it back to life As someone who decided to fight boredom during pandemic lockdown to learn electronics, this is a fun way to learn stuff that I find interesting.

[screwbreaker]

An Arduino, or another MCU is a better way to learn than an old PC.
Then you can use what you learned to make something for an old PC.
Old computers are easy, you don't need to deal with multi layer boards, impedance match, high speed signals, and other complicated stuff like that.
Have a little lab today, with few cheap chinese gears, is the same as have ultra expensive equipment back in the 80's.

But it's true. It's a speculative bubble. Feeded by people in middle age crisis, and sellers who grown up the market to make more money.

Internet (YT mostly) and eBay had amplified the phenomenon.

Today whatever old crap is sold as gold.

[ZeeCaptain]

An Arduino, or another MCU is a better way to learn than an old PC.
Then you can use what you learned to make something for an old PC.

Yeh, Arduino and derivatives are also fun to work on and learn, but it doesn't have that sentimental value. Also for me the limitations and shortcomings of C64 are the most interesting parts.

Old computers are easy, you don't need to deal with multi layer boards, impedance match, high speed signals, and other complicated stuff like that.

There's your answer. Complicated stuff will come later. For you it's probably a knowledge that you can't imagine an EE without, but I'm just a beginner hobbyist and it's simply not worth time and effort right now to dig into those topics when I still need to learn and comprehend basics. The kind of stuff that e.g. Ben Eater shows on his YT channel.

Speculative or not, the same deal is with old cars and their enthusiasts. Quite often their construction is ridiculous by today standards, but some people still love it and tinker with it. You don't reason with hobby

[SiliconWizard]

An Arduino, or another MCU is a better way to learn than an old PC.

Those are completely different things with a very different learning value.

Vintage computers - as long as you get technical of course and don't just stick to powering them on and playing - will teach you something about computer architecture, CPUs, digital logic, memory... things you can pretty much only learn in books these days and not put into practice, unless you study advanced digital logics or work in such a field. But for amateurs? All of this has become abstract.

Arduino is all nice to expose people to technology and embedded design, can get them to do fun stuff in a relatively short time, but the overall learning value is pretty low IMO - at least if you don't go any further.

Then you say "old computers are easy", and your argumentation all falls apart. If you bother to study vintage computer schematics, again you'll learn a lot more than you'll ever do using a ready-made arduino board, plug in some wires and fire up an IDE with a bastardized use of C++. From a hardware POV, since your last argument talks about that, what will you learn from studying the schematic of a typical arduino board? There's basically an MCU, a couple passives and possibly some regulator. What does it have to do with impedance match, multi-layer boards and high speed signals? Nothing. Most of those boards could have been designed 40 years ago (minus the MCUs that didn't exist as such back then), but contain so little that the learning value is next to none.

You can't compare to current complex computers which are indeed, in general, much too complex to fully grasp unless you're a specialist. Vintage stuff still give you the opportunity to actually learn something while still being accessible to the amateur.

Unfortunately, your reasoning looks like what the current trend of our society is: since advanced technology is much too complex for the masses, just give them dumbed down stuff to learn. Then the more advanced stuff will be for an elite. As though there was no middle ground. I just think this is wrong, and will even in time kill innovation.