Author Topic: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment  (Read 4984 times)

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Offline hv222

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Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« on: October 03, 2018, 07:48:20 pm »
Hi,
 
I'm thinking about selecting themes of my graduation thesis at master degree studying. Is it worth to select more complex and advanced themes like Time of Flight rangefinder with comparison of different light emiter's and detectors types vs measurement accuracy or select easier theme like DC/DC converter for CC power LED driving with comparison of silicon MOSFET and GaN FET vs. efficiency? Simulation and prototyping with measurements in botch cases. Is recruitment team looking at master degree theme and level? Is master degree more wanted then bachelor degree? Is it a big plus if graduation thesis is written in English? I want starts looking for jobs in PCB and electronics designing in R&D (preferred automotive or space sector)(Western Europe, the USA).

 

Offline KJDS

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2018, 06:46:36 am »
Choose something that interests you, not something that you think will impress someone else.

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2018, 06:35:58 am »
Normally you see people going from bachelor degree to masters after a period of time in the workforce. (And engineers more often than not seem to go MBA, not ME)

As far as I have seen, the only people who go straight to masters out of a B.E. degree are the people who are planning on going all the way to PhD.

If I was interviewing you for an entry level engineer role and you had a master's but no real world experience, I'd be very curious to know why, and wanting to discover if you were planning to go to a PhD soon.

As for the general question, if any University project work completed as a student is relevant to the work that's being hired for, it's definitely worth talking about and highlighting to an employer when you're in front of your future manager or coworkers... So if you have a passion for a particular technology, it could be worth going in that direction. Which brings you back again to "do something you're interested in"

But really that won't come into play before you have got past HR or recruiter level anyway... Very likely they won't understand thesis projects or their relevance.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2018, 06:41:27 pm »
Normally you see people going from bachelor degree to masters after a period of time in the workforce. (And engineers more often than not seem to go MBA, not ME)

Both statements come as a surprise to me. They might be true for Australia, but probably less so in Europe. I don't see a problem in going straight from Bachelor to Masters. (And I sure trust that more engineering bachelors turn into engineering master than MBAs!)

I am with KJDS regarding the choice of topic: Pick something that you find interesting. That will make a good result more likely, and -- maybe more importantly -- will ensure that you don't experience your thesis as a waste of time.
 

Online mrpackethead

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2018, 07:30:07 pm »
Normally you see people going from bachelor degree to masters after a period of time in the workforce. (And engineers more often than not seem to go MBA, not ME)

Both statements come as a surprise to me. They might be true for Australia, but probably less so in Europe. I don't see a problem in going straight from Bachelor to Masters. (And I sure trust that more engineering bachelors turn into engineering master than MBAs!)

I am with KJDS regarding the choice of topic: Pick something that you find interesting. That will make a good result more likely, and -- maybe more importantly -- will ensure that you don't experience your thesis as a waste of time.


The content of your thesis will probably not impress me at all.   At an interview i would spend some time in asking you questions about the process of how you solved the problems rather than the problem itself.   Engineering is about solving problems that there is no answer for, and that is what i'm really interested in.   

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Online coppice

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2018, 07:52:09 pm »
As far as I have seen, the only people who go straight to masters out of a B.E. degree are the people who are planning on going all the way to PhD.
Large numbers of companies won't even look at an application for an engineering post with only a bachelors degree. Lots of top colleges don't even offer bachelors degree courses in engineering these days. Masters in the starting level.
 
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Online mrpackethead

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2018, 08:31:56 pm »
As far as I have seen, the only people who go straight to masters out of a B.E. degree are the people who are planning on going all the way to PhD.
Large numbers of companies won't even look at an application for an engineering post with only a bachelors degree. Lots of top colleges don't even offer bachelors degree courses in engineering these days. Masters in the starting level.


Got some tangiable facts to back that up?     What i'm seeing is a big lack of people to take on any engineering roles.. If you are average +, its not hard to get a job right now.   Getting an amazing job, is harder of course.

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Online coppice

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2018, 10:25:39 pm »
As far as I have seen, the only people who go straight to masters out of a B.E. degree are the people who are planning on going all the way to PhD.
Large numbers of companies won't even look at an application for an engineering post with only a bachelors degree. Lots of top colleges don't even offer bachelors degree courses in engineering these days. Masters in the starting level.
Got some tangiable facts to back that up?     What i'm seeing is a big lack of people to take on any engineering roles.. If you are average +, its not hard to get a job right now.   Getting an amazing job, is harder of course.
Maybe that relates to where you are. With so little electronics industry left in Australia I assume few people want to study electronics there. Perhaps supply has adjusted to the weak demand.

There are certainly companies in any country who will offer jobs to all sorts of people. However, try applying to, say, the top semiconductor companies without a masters degree, or some very solid experience as a substitute, and see how far you get.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2018, 10:41:26 pm »
Highly dependent upon your country and it's industry.
My advice is don't take any advice from anyone outside your country.
 
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Offline jpanhalt

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2018, 11:04:58 pm »
Hi,
 
I'm thinking about selecting themes of my graduation thesis at master degree studying.

Don't you work with a mentor on a thesis?
 

Online mrpackethead

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2018, 11:29:41 pm »
As far as I have seen, the only people who go straight to masters out of a B.E. degree are the people who are planning on going all the way to PhD.
Large numbers of companies won't even look at an application for an engineering post with only a bachelors degree. Lots of top colleges don't even offer bachelors degree courses in engineering these days. Masters in the starting level.
Got some tangiable facts to back that up?     What i'm seeing is a big lack of people to take on any engineering roles.. If you are average +, its not hard to get a job right now.   Getting an amazing job, is harder of course.
Maybe that relates to where you are. With so little electronics industry left in Australia I assume few people want to study electronics there. Perhaps supply has adjusted to the weak demand.

There are certainly companies in any country who will offer jobs to all sorts of people. However, try applying to, say, the top semiconductor companies without a masters degree, or some very solid experience as a substitute, and see how far you get.


(1) i'm not in Australia.   (2) We have a growing tech industry here.. things like Rocket Lab are placing massive demands on engineering.   (3) We have a growing number of graduates coming out of engineering courses..     HR is our biggest limitation.         

However i'm going to read your commetns as opinion, as you've offered nothing i can vertify it with.    Likewise you can take mine as opinion.
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Online mrpackethead

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2018, 11:31:08 pm »
Hi,
 
I'm thinking about selecting themes of my graduation thesis at master degree studying.

Don't you work with a mentor on a thesis?

I have had several students working for me, while they are studying. Part of their course requries them to do 1500 hours of 'real work'.     From what i've seen of thesis projects,  i would suggest picking a subject that you can acheive.  Nothign is worse than a half finished project.
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Offline jpanhalt

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2018, 12:07:27 am »
Hi,
 
I'm thinking about selecting themes of my graduation thesis at master degree studying.

Don't you work with a mentor on a thesis?

I have had several students working for me, while they are studying. Part of their course requries them to do 1500 hours of 'real work'.     From what i've seen of thesis projects,  i would suggest picking a subject that you can acheive.  Nothign is worse than a half finished project.

I am indeed surprised!  How can a thesis project go uncompleted and the student still get the degree?  Have you no standards?  Do students have no accountability?   Are faculty too busy at the beach to monitor either?

Where I went to school, I know of only one student who didn't finish their (her) project and still got the degree (Ph.D., organic chemistry).  It was concluded by her advisor and council that the key compound needed to complete the dissertation could not be synthesized.   That was after 8 years of work.  Perhaps too rigorous?  Maybe.  But she did have options along the way. 

BTW, she was a good friend, and I respect her doggedness to this day.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2018, 01:38:02 am »
I am indeed surprised!  How can a thesis project go uncompleted and the student still get the degree?  Have you no standards?  Do students have no accountability?   Are faculty too busy at the beach to monitor either?
Why should the thesis need to be completed? Many projects turn out to be much more involved than anyone expected, or some key resource turns out not to be available. Often a project goes horribly wrong because of the supervisor, rather than the student. All that is relevant for a bachelor or masters degree is that sufficient work of sufficient quality is demonstrated, and a solid final report of what was accomplished is produced. These are not PhD projects.

Bachelor and masters level projects do not consistently have a mentor. They have a supervisor, but different supervisors have very different ideas of their role. They might be anything from a mentor to an adversary. You may not be able to get very much of their time, anyway.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 01:41:06 am by coppice »
 

Online coppice

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2018, 01:44:03 am »
HR is our biggest limitation.         
HR is the biggest limitation in most places. There are lots of people in big companies who would like to hire people with bachelors degrees, where HR completely blocks them.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 01:48:44 am by coppice »
 

Online mrpackethead

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2018, 01:47:30 am »
I am indeed surprised!  How can a thesis project go uncompleted and the student still get the degree?  Have you no standards?  Do students have no accountability?   Are faculty too busy at the beach to monitor either?
Why should the thesis need to be completed? Many projects turn out to be much more involved than anyone expected

So, if you pick a project that ensures you meet the requirements of the course, AND finish it, you'll be in a better place when it comes to getting a job.
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Online coppice

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2018, 01:54:13 am »
I am indeed surprised!  How can a thesis project go uncompleted and the student still get the degree?  Have you no standards?  Do students have no accountability?   Are faculty too busy at the beach to monitor either?
Why should the thesis need to be completed? Many projects turn out to be much more involved than anyone expected
So, if you pick a project that ensures you meet the requirements of the course, AND finish it, you'll be in a better place when it comes to getting a job.
Sure. Nobody feels good about not bringing their project to a satisfactory conclusion, both because its unsatisfying and because its not the greatest reference to use after graduation. However, as in industry, many projects don't go to plan, and both sides have to make the best of the situation. The question for the student is: pick a very completable, but not so challenging, project, or pick something more impressive, with a lower chance of it going to plan? Its hard to get the balance right when you are inexperienced, and only a limited number of project choices are available.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2018, 04:55:12 am »
Large numbers of companies won't even look at an application for an engineering post with only a bachelors degree. Lots of top colleges don't even offer bachelors degree courses in engineering these days. Masters in the starting level.

Got some tangiable facts to back that up?

Some data for Germany are here. (Page is in German, but the chart speaks for itself.) https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/247927/umfrage/absolventen-in-der-faechergruppe-ingenieurwissenschaften-an-deutschen-hochschulen/

That chart shows the total number of bachelor and master degrees in all engineering disciplines. It's important to realize that these degrees have only been introduced relatively recently in Germany, in a transition from the former "Diplom-Ingenieur" degree. So the number of completed degrees are still on their way to a steady state, and have been going up over recent years. (With the Mater lagging behind, as of course it takes longer to obtain.)

In the past couple of years, the number of awarded Masters was more than half of the number of Bachelors, and the Master is still "catching up . Extrapolating the trend in that chart, approx. 2/3 of the students seem to be going on to a Master degree.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2018, 11:52:45 am »
In the past couple of years, the number of awarded Masters was more than half of the number of Bachelors, and the Master is still "catching up . Extrapolating the trend in that chart, approx. 2/3 of the students seem to be going on to a Master degree.
Do the top tier universities in Germany even offering bachelor programs for engineering degrees now? In the UK they don't. You go there for a masters. If you underperform you might leave before the final year with a bachelor degree, but you start on a masters program.
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2018, 12:26:19 pm »
HR is our biggest limitation.
HR is the biggest limitation in most places. There are lots of people in big companies who would like to hire people with bachelors degrees, where HR completely blocks them.
That's a leadership failure, not an HR failure.
Don't let HR run your company for you.
Don't let finance run your company for you either, unless you're a financial company.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2018, 01:18:03 pm »
Do the top tier universities in Germany even offering bachelor programs for engineering degrees now? In the UK they don't. You go there for a masters. If you underperform you might leave before the final year with a bachelor degree, but you start on a masters program.

I just checked a few of the top tier technical universities (Munich, Aachen, Karlsruhe) for their "Electrical Engineering & Information Technology" programs, and they all offer both, bachelor and master. I understand that students get a bachelor degree first, and then choose to wither continue with a master or to move straight into industry.

The "new" degrees are explicitly pitched to offer students the flexibility to enter a professional career at an earlier stage, in contrast to the "Vordiplom" and "Diplom" we had earlier. The Vordiplom was not an actual degree, but an internal checkpoint on the way to the Diplom only. Offering a program which skips the bachelor and leads straight to a master's degree would defeat that purpose, I guess.

But still, in practice an estimated 2/3 of the engineering students seem to go on to get a master degree. But we have had similar situations for a long time, e.g. in Chemistry, where a PhD has always been seen as the "real" degree required, even for an industry career...
 


Online coppice

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2018, 05:50:03 pm »
Bristol offers the choice of B.Eng or M.Eng

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/engineering/departments/eeng/courses/undergraduate/
Interesting. They do offer some B. Eng courses, but they offer rather more M.Eng ones on that page.
 

Online mrpackethead

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2018, 05:59:29 pm »
HR is our biggest limitation.
HR is the biggest limitation in most places. There are lots of people in big companies who would like to hire people with bachelors degrees, where HR completely blocks them.
That's a leadership failure, not an HR failure.
Don't let HR run your company for you.
Don't let finance run your company for you either, unless you're a financial company.

HR = Human Resources.  Its not a department.    Its the humans.
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2018, 06:03:14 pm »
HR = Human Resources.  Its not a department.    Its the humans.

You might be in the minority with that use of the term.
At least among those working in largish companies, HR = "the HR department".

(As in "Catbert, evil HR director".)  ;)
 

Online coppice

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2018, 06:07:34 pm »
HR = Human Resources.  Its not a department.    Its the humans.

You might be in the minority with that use of the term.
At least among those working in largish companies, HR = "the HR department".

(As in "Catbert, evil HR director".)  ;)
Humans don't call themselves resources. HR is specifically a dehumanising part of an organisation which does. There must be a few companies left in this world that still have a Personnel Department, where they actually deal with persons, but there aren't many.
 
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Offline sokoloff

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2018, 06:08:28 pm »
HR = Human Resources.  Its not a department.    Its the humans.
"where HR completely blocks them" was what coppice's text that I was responding to.

If you are using "human resources" to mean "people", I don't agree with that use of terminology (I prefer to call them "people"), but I don't think we otherwise disagree: Hiring skilled technical people is the hardest part of most tech companies.

If I take your definition to coppice's text, it doesn't make sense, which suggests that coppice was using HR to mean the department:
Humans want to hire people with bachelor's degree but those same humans completely block them.
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2018, 08:15:51 pm »
So how many years full time study do you stay in University to get an M.E. in the countries where people typically get M.E. degrees?

In Australia, a standard BE. contains an extra (4th) year over a normal (BA. BSc. Etc...) bachelor's degree, so by default it includes an honours year where you do a thesis, etc. And you can't get a 3 year BE.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2018, 08:38:48 pm »
So how many years full time study do you stay in University to get an M.E. in the countries where people typically get M.E. degrees?

In Australia, a standard BE. contains an extra (4th) year over a normal (BA. BSc. Etc...) bachelor's degree, so by default it includes an honours year where you do a thesis, etc. And you can't get a 3 year BE.
Comparisons can't be exact, because some countries have a year more high school and a year less university than others. Some places are also changing between these approaches. e.g. Hong Kong used to have 7 years of high school and 3 years of university to get a bachelor degree, following the UK model. Now they have 6 years of high school and 4 years of university to get a bachelor degree, similar to Australia. A master's course is usually one more year.
 

Online mrpackethead

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2018, 09:06:27 pm »
So how many years full time study do you stay in University to get an M.E. in the countries where people typically get M.E. degrees?

In Australia, a standard BE. contains an extra (4th) year over a normal (BA. BSc. Etc...) bachelor's degree, so by default it includes an honours year where you do a thesis, etc. And you can't get a 3 year BE.
Comparisons can't be exact, because some countries have a year more high school and a year less university than others. Some places are also changing between these approaches. e.g. Hong Kong used to have 7 years of high school and 3 years of university to get a bachelor degree, following the UK model. Now they have 6 years of high school and 4 years of university to get a bachelor degree, similar to Australia. A master's course is usually one more year.

in NZ, BE is four years, Masters is 6 years, and PHD woudl be 7-8 years.
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Offline hv222

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2018, 10:03:24 pm »
I was discussed about themes with mentor. Both are matching with master degree requirements. I create this topic to get know how is it with recruitment abroad. I heard that master is obligatory in Western Europe. Maybe not to get a job, but too be promoted or not to be degraded after few years and to have higher salary. I was checking internships in the USA, but many big companies require to be maximum half year after master or PhD graduation and with 3 or more years of work experience. Here in Poland it is easier to starts master studies just after bachelor graduation due to free studies and students benefits limited by age. I'm on full-time study's so even with working while studying it's hard to collect few years working experience, so I need to impress in other way. However I also have some job experience.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2018, 04:41:37 pm »
So how many years full time study do you stay in University to get an M.E. in the countries where people typically get M.E. degrees?

In Australia, a standard BE. contains an extra (4th) year over a normal (BA. BSc. Etc...) bachelor's degree, so by default it includes an honours year where you do a thesis, etc. And you can't get a 3 year BE.

Over here, it's a 5-year university degree, but our system is a bit more complex than this.
A master's degree used to be a 4-year degree here, and there was an additional year (5th) before you could start a PhD. They switched to a model to better match the rest of the world I guess, while still keeping the "5-year" barrier that recruiters have been used to, so now a master's degree is a 5-year degree basically. Additionally, engineering degrees here have a special status and are not master's degrees. They are 5-year degrees and are delivered in engineering schools.

Getting an engineering job without a master's degree here is close to impossible, unless you can prove you're qualified with a long experience. And even so, it's pretty tough. So most engineers not having a master's or engineering degree are experienced people that have gotten internal promotions.

Even a master's degree is not the best here as we have specific engineering degrees that are preferred by recruiters.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 04:43:28 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline Clear as mud

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Re: Level of master graduation thesis vs work recruitment
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2018, 11:55:50 am »
n the US, 2 years more to get a Master's over a Bachelor's, assuming you keep to a full-time college student schedule of 12 course hours per semester.  But the course requirements are quite a bit more difficult, and I didn't fully appreciate that until I was in the program, so I took much longer to complete it.  I got my Bachelors in physics from a school that didn't offer engineering or Master's degrees, then later went on to get an engineering degree.  I wanted another Bachelor's degree (but in Engineering instead of physics), but university staff advised me to get a Master's.  For a long time I have viewed that as bad advice.  Industry wants just a bachelor's degree, unless you want to do really mathematical theoretical things.
 


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