Author Topic: Getting a soldering station  (Read 11769 times)

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Offline Paul Price

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2016, 09:21:59 am »
The graphical relationship of quality versus price is most always a curve of diminishing returns.

Everyone often must choose their favorite point upon it.

Just why can't one sometime expect that some bargains are just bargains?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 09:25:10 am by Paul Price »
 

Offline Dave

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2016, 10:56:56 am »
A certain person in this thread is quite clearly struggling with reading comprehension, so someone decided not to give that person the courtesy of replying any more.

OP, I hope you manage to find a soldering station that satisfies your needs.
<fellbuendel> it's arduino, you're not supposed to know anything about what you're doing
<fellbuendel> if you knew, you wouldn't be using it
 

Online tooki

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2016, 11:47:06 am »
Someone has remaked "Your "precise" temperature control is far from anything a decent solder station would do. You basically have a comparator that compares the set point and the feedback it gets from the thermistor. That thing overshoots, I guarantee it. A decent solder station needs a carefully tweaked PID control loop, whether it is analog or digital."

This is nonsense.  Can you "guarentee it"?

Show me any video or any data to back up your claim for absolute need for a "carefully tweeked PID control loop,,or that other "Professional" soldering stations maybe hundreds of times more expensive are not also showing this behavior?

Having a "carefully tweaked PID control loop' implies a critical need that a competent soldering station has been equipped with a microcontroller and carefully tweaked software. I haven't  yet to see even the uncommon use of any MCU in any soldering station schematic I've ever seen.
There is only reason for MCU's not being used, they are not necessary to achieve good temperature control.
First of all it is not necessary to control the temperature of any soldering iron within  few degrees, soldering is a much an art as a skill and learning how to use the tools you have makes all the difference in using any soldering tool.

Even with the crudest of soldering tools, learning that soldering technique is a "touch and go" situation that can be learned as a skill, and having this skill can allow even a cigarette lighter heating a ball-point pen clip to be used to successfully solder/unsolder tiny SMD components. It does take a little practice.

Having any feedback loop, such as the very simple comparator circuit I've shown is in comparison, is a thousand time more able to stablize temperature and can rival the soldering ease of the most expensive stations.

The temperature of the tip of a soldering stations varies, it varies, with many factors, most notably,  the thermal mass it is applied to, the power available to heat the heating element and the distance/thermal resistance from the heating element from the sensor and the tip and the thermal conductivity of the object being soldered and the surface it is soldered to, the time that tip is applied to the object to be soldered..etc.  It is not constant.
I can only hope that English isn't your native language because your writing is damned near impossible to understand.

Anyway, I think you're saying that you've never seen a soldering station that needed an MCU in its controller for anything other than display. This is utter nonsense. What others have explained to you about overshoot is not only true, it's also simple plain common sense. Ever notice how when people are filling a bottle with water (at the faucet), they'll slow down the flow at the end so it doesn't spray everywhere? Same principle.

Whenever you have momentum in a system (like thermal mass to overcome) and use only simple single-threshold, on-off control, you end up with oscillations. You see this with radiator central heating using "dumb" bimetallic strip thermostats, too: it takes a while to reach the setpoint, and when it does and the thermostat turns off, the excess residual heat in the system continues to heat the building well beyond the setpoint.

FWIW, my Ersa i-CON nano has three "power" settings (though I think "aggressiveness" would actually be a better word): high heats super fast but can have significant overshoot (I've seen 30C overshoot, enough to damage some components), low has zero overshoot (but takes much longer to warm up since it heats very gently at the end), and medium which is a good balance for everyday use (allows a few degrees of overshoot). The control system has, I believe, around 10 actual power levels, though the onscreen bargraph shows only 5 levels -- initial heatup happens at full power, and then as it approaches the setpoint, the power level is dropped down, and ultimately turned off at the setpoint. (If it couldn't regulate power levels like this, temperature stability would be much worse, with more overshoot, and with larger fluctuations overall.)



I think the point you're trying to make, Paul Price, is that not everyone needs a top-grade professional station. Nobody here actually disagrees with that. What we disagree with is your casual statement that some $5* piece of junk (which may be good enough for many jobs) is just as good as professional equipment. It's not and never will be. Learn about false economies: saving up and spending $100 on a real station will not only last longer, but it'll also be a pleasure to use. Can you make a solder joint with a hot nail? Sure. Is it enjoyable to work that way? Absolutely not. Why waste time and enjoyment over such a trivial amount of money?

*Ignoring that it can't be done for $5. If you've spent $2.70 on that junky handle, you're still gonna need far more than $2.30 in parts to build the rest. It's rarely actually cheaper to build our own electronics -- Chinese factories are just too damned efficient. We do it for fun and learning, not to save money.
 

Online tooki

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2016, 11:48:59 am »
Hi,

As of now, I've been using one of those cheapo soldering irons from aliexpress for 3 dollars. But now, I think I want to get a soldering station with removeable tips. Now, I don't have enough money to get a weller or hakko, so I've been looking at some of these:

https://www.amazon.ca/Aoyue-Variable-Soldering-Removable-Design-ESD/dp/B00MCVCHJM/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1470775476&sr=8-7&keywords=soldering+station

https://www.amazon.ca/Variable-Temperature-Soldering-soldering-SHIPPING/dp/B009BXYOWC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1470775476&sr=8-3&keywords=soldering+station

Any thoughts?
Those are junk. Save up and buy a genuine Hakko or Weller (or other top brand). You'll be glad you did, a real soldering station is a joy to work with. The popular Hakko FX-888 seems to be a winner for around $100 (never used one myself). Do a search, you'll find countless other threads discussing soldering stations for beginners.
 

Offline Paul Price

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2016, 12:43:58 pm »
Thanks tooki, for your comments. You have managed to explain the problem of soldering iron temperature overshoot quite clearly.

The point I wanted to make is that even a significant amount of temperature overshoot might not be a problem in the majority of soldering instances, especially when a little skill is learned in using any soldering tool.

English is my native language, but I can make good use of three other languages as well.  I apologize if my writing in unedited form results in a difficulty understanding my comments. I simply do not always have the time to carefully proofread and correct my grammar for the purpose of casual, informal online discussions.  I realize that for some native foreign language speakers this oversight results  in making some of my comments harder to understand.

tooki comments that buying a good soldering station only involves spending a "trivial amount of money"

The final point I wish to make is that $100 USD is not an insignificant amount of money for many people in this world..including the USA and that a DIY approach can be a way to save money and still achieve getting the soldering equipment that you need, while also allowing someone to learn much about electronics.

I would really like someone to purchase the <$5 soldering handle, use free recycled parts to complete their soldering station and then report their DIY experience to all of us online!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 01:23:29 pm by Paul Price »
 

Offline Watth

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2016, 01:57:01 pm »
What do you guys think of a third solution (between cheap chinese products and state o the art professional stations): the generic soldering stations sold by renown vendors.
For example: Farnell's http://uk.farnell.com/tenma/21-10115-eu/soldering-station-60w-220v-eu/dp/2062627 or RS' http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/soldering-stations/9092095/
At least you could expect compliance to regulations and a warranty. The prices are not that higher than thing baught directly from china, and a much shortrt delivery time.
Because "Matth" was already taken.
 

Offline Paul Price

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2016, 03:02:21 pm »
Watth, looks good at first, but each nib costs about $26 USD, and the price is not including shipping(and tax?). Add the cost of the shipping the initial product to you by the method demanded by Farnell and you've likely blown your $100 USD even if you haven't the money or  the good sense to buy a spare nib.

You can do better than this choice. If you must not DIY, order it from China and save oodles of $.

 Buy the $4 handle to hold you over you can save up $500 or so USD to buy one of the really good soldering stations that seem to be necessary to get any electronic beginner's job done and enjoy that it is so comfortable to use. This point has been emphasized by many posters on this topic as your best approach to buying a soldering tool.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 03:32:48 pm by Paul Price »
 

Offline Watth

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2016, 03:36:41 pm »
Watth, looks good at first, but each nib costs about $26 USD, and the price is not including shipping(and tax?). Add the cost of the shipping the initial product to you by the method demanded by Farnell and you've likely blown your $100 USD even if you haven't the money or  the good sense to buy a spare nib.

You can do better than this choice. If you must not DIY, order it from China and save oodles of $.

 Buy the $4 handle to hold you over you can save up $500 or so USD to buy one of the really good soldering stations that seem to be necessary to get any electronic beginner's job done and enjoy that it is so comfortable to use. This has been emphasized by many posters on this topic as your best approach to buying a soldering tool.

Note that I am not actually looking to buy a soldering station, I asked out of curiosity about this range of products, especially compared to direct from China products.

Note that for the Farnell example, the ~30€ is for TEN bits. Still not practical: who needs 10 of the same bit? I picked this ones as examples.
Note that in case of an order from in France from the french Farnell site, S&H is free for orders over 30€ (so shipping IS included). You indeed still have to add a 20% V.A.T. for individuals.
Because "Matth" was already taken.
 

Offline R005T3r

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2016, 10:02:16 pm »
Hi,

As of now, I've been using one of those cheapo soldering irons from aliexpress for 3 dollars. But now, I think I want to get a soldering station with removeable tips. Now, I don't have enough money to get a weller or hakko, so I've been looking at some of these:

https://www.amazon.ca/Aoyue-Variable-Soldering-Removable-Design-ESD/dp/B00MCVCHJM/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1470775476&sr=8-7&keywords=soldering+station

https://www.amazon.ca/Variable-Temperature-Soldering-soldering-SHIPPING/dp/B009BXYOWC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1470775476&sr=8-3&keywords=soldering+station

Any thoughts?
Those are junk. Save up and buy a genuine Hakko or Weller (or other top brand). You'll be glad you did, a real soldering station is a joy to work with. The popular Hakko FX-888 seems to be a winner for around $100 (never used one myself). Do a search, you'll find countless other threads discussing soldering stations for beginners.

Yes, I have to admit that switching from the cheap wall soldering iron to the 888d station was a really worthy upgrade, even if it I spent $100 : improved a lot my soldering experience! It also comes with a good selection of tips that are very handy for soldering smd stuff. You don't need to go more than $150/100 for a decent station.
Also, don't forget to take  the right solder for your needs or you will end up ruining your iron (and more important the PCB)...
 
The following users thanked this post: tooki

Online tooki

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2016, 10:14:47 am »
Thanks tooki, for your comments. You have managed to explain the problem of soldering iron temperature overshoot quite clearly.

The point I wanted to make is that even a significant amount of temperature overshoot might not be a problem in the majority of soldering instances, especially when a little skill is learned in using any soldering tool.

English is my native language, but I can make good use of three other languages as well.  I apologize if my writing in unedited form results in a difficulty understanding my comments. I simply do not always have the time to carefully proofread and correct my grammar for the purpose of casual, informal online discussions.  I realize that for some native foreign language speakers this oversight results  in making some of my comments harder to understand.
FWIW, English is actually my native language. I apologize if I came across as harsh regarding your writing, but that one post really is nearly impossible to parse. I would encourage you to take the time to proofread — it saves time compared to having to repost to clarify! ;)

As for your kind words about my explanation of overshoot: I have years of experience as a technical writer under my belt (and even more years experience in explaining technical things to laypersons).

What other languages do you speak? (I am at native level in German, fluent in Spanish, and know a little bit of French and Italian.)

tooki comments that buying a good soldering station only involves spending a "trivial amount of money"

The final point I wish to make is that $100 USD is not an insignificant amount of money for many people in this world..including the USA and that a DIY approach can be a way to save money and still achieve getting the soldering equipment that you need, while also allowing someone to learn much about electronics.

I would really like someone to purchase the <$5 soldering handle, use free recycled parts to complete their soldering station and then report their DIY experience to all of us online!
Yes, it's true that to many people, $100 is prohibitive, but I'd sooner encourage someone to buy an old used Weller/Hakko/Ersa/JBC/Metcal for $40 than cobble something together from cheap parts.
 

Offline sidlas

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2016, 02:38:29 pm »
Hi,

As of now, I've been using one of those cheapo soldering irons from aliexpress for 3 dollars. But now, I think I want to get a soldering station with removeable tips. Now, I don't have enough money to get a weller or hakko, so I've been looking at some of these:

https://www.amazon.ca/Aoyue-Variable-Soldering-Removable-Design-ESD/dp/B00MCVCHJM/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1470775476&sr=8-7&keywords=soldering+station

https://www.amazon.ca/Variable-Temperature-Soldering-soldering-SHIPPING/dp/B009BXYOWC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1470775476&sr=8-3&keywords=soldering+station

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
i look at those to, but ended with http://www.ebay.com/itm/130867504784?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
idk yet for good or no.
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2016, 03:00:13 pm »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
i look at those to, but ended with http://www.ebay.com/itm/130867504784?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
idk yet for good or no.
FWIW, you could have gotten an FX-888D for that. Toss in a few tips and you'd have qualified for free shipping ($99 before discount).

It wouldn't have come with the set of tips, but genuine Hakko tips outlast most any brand out there IME (i.e. 10yrs with proper care is very doable for something that costs $5). Try getting that kind of lifespan (value) out of the cheap versions that came with your station.  >:D
 

Offline eKretz

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2016, 08:37:26 pm »
Getting a used Ersa, JBC or Metcal is unlikely for $40 but it IS a good idea IMO. That's what I did, and managed to get an Ersa i-Con 1 station with a brand new soldering iron for under $150. Later I found a set of 8 various tips with the screw collars for under $50. Although this may seem fairly high to some still, it was very much worth it to me, and I'm disabled and on fixed income. A repair or two for others and the station was fully paid for.

Stations that use a PID loop system are important for repetitive soldering on SMD and soldering on boards with heavy ground planes etc. to avoid overshoot that could easily potentially damage heat sensitive components. For this kind of work I would never want to use a non-PID station if I didn't have to.
 

Online tooki

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2016, 02:11:53 pm »
I said an *old* used name brand station, not used but recent like your I-CON 1. ;) Even a 25 year old Ersa or Weller is going to exceed some $5 job.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Getting a soldering station
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2016, 06:01:19 pm »
Quote
Anyway, I think you're saying that you've never seen a soldering station that needed an MCU in its controller for anything other than display. This is utter nonsense. What others have explained to you about overshoot is not only true, it's also simple plain common sense. Ever notice how when people are filling a bottle with water (at the faucet), they'll slow down the flow at the end so it doesn't spray everywhere? Same principle.

Whenever you have momentum in a system (like thermal mass to overcome) and use only simple single-threshold, on-off control, you end up with oscillations. You see this with radiator central heating using "dumb" bimetallic strip thermostats, too: it takes a while to reach the setpoint, and when it does and the thermostat turns off, the excess residual heat in the system continues to heat the building well beyond the setpoint.

IMO, common soldering irons do not need PID. Soldering has a huge unknown variable. The iron does not know when you are going to touch or remove the tip from a joint. The more important factor is how close the sensor can be coupled with temperature at the tip of the iron. This is why Metcal/RF sensing is still king of responsiveness, not fancy PID iron control.

In example of filling a bottle from a faucet, the size of the bottle is constant. If the size of the bottle changed by over 80%, irregularly, without notice, PID would be not nearly as effective/efficient in preventing overshoot/fill. In a hot air station, the amount of air flow is known to the station. In a soldering iron, the thermal mass of the tip and heater are known, but there is a huge unknown variable as to what the tip is in contact with at any given time, and this changes quite drastically from one microsecond to another.

Until you spring for a metcal, you have to take into account the thermal mass of your soldering iron tip being appropriately sized for the job, your dwell time, and the look of the joint. A few degree here and there mean naught. It is perfectly ok to turn off the faucet when your hand gets wet. And to turn it on 100% when the bottle has any air... because the user might touch it to a joint in the interim.

There are some modern stations boasting PID control and super tight temp regulation and high response time. I have no doubt software can slightly improve things. But it takes a huge backseat to tip/sensor design and max power. And it would be far down on my list of things to care about behind build quality, ergos, tip selection, anticipated future support.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 06:26:48 pm by KL27x »
 


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