has anyone here made a career of electronics without a recognized qualification?

[apbosh1]

If so what do you do? has anyone really done well for themselves (job role) just from there own learning?
There must be some glory cases out there. 
Whats your job?
Thanks

[dr.diesel]

Not again,   

This has been discussed many times already.

[Mechatrommer]

and then what? you'll tell your father that you dont have to study in school? that you are so deeply in love with "practical skill" that you can learn at home as a "hobbiest" and then be succesfull? yeah right! you dont have to go to school, save one vacancy for engineer post, thank you!

[c4757p]

...or he's just curious. I know I can be a bit bitchy sometimes too... but damn, be nice!

If so what do you do? has anyone really done well for themselves (job role) just from there own learning?

Not many, kid. More of them in fields like computer programming than engineering.

[free_electron]

-cough-

[tszaboo]

My boss, some 3 companies back had a 5 year old 15 person "startup" company. He did not finish university. It was working more-less all right. Made some government business also. Almost went bankrupted sometimes, and it is not a William H. Gates story. But if you self employ yourself, than you don't need to finish higher education. But I suggest to start it, because it is fun anyway.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Yes thanks.

[grumpydoc]

has anyone here made a career of electronics without a recognized qualification?

Lots of people, I imagine.

[Bored@Work]

To get a more balanced view, drive to the nearest larger city. Locate the dubious area of the city where the bums tend to hang around. Ask them if anyone there made a career in electronics without a recognized qualification.

[apbosh1]

Nice! i'll try and remove this post is this what the electronics community is like? i dont like it i'm off.

[c4757p]

Nice! i'll try and remove this post is this what the electronics community is like?

Opinionated? That's people, not "the electronics community".

[ovnr]

is this what the electronics community is like? i dont like it i'm off.

You expect to be able to accomplish things without even bothering with a proper education, and yet you get turned off and leave just by us being somewhat less than nice? Really? *smirk*

[Bored@Work]

Nice! i'll try and remove this post is this what the electronics community is like? i dont like it i'm off.

Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

[Fsck]

Nice! i'll try and remove this post is this what the electronics community is like?

Opinionated? That's people, not "the electronics community".

It's also the internet.

[bookaboo]

I've done it, maybe not set the world on fire but I make a decent living and I've only ever done a HNC (which Unfortunately due the modules chosen by uni was worse than useless)

Now, that said do I regret skipping uni?
Yes. Even though I think a hell of a lot of certain course material is useless and the university system is hopelessly inefficient. The fact is you get into a certain circle of firms straight away and thats where the learning is.
Sure by skipping over 5 years of theory you get to grind it out having fun doing all the practical under the sun..... but you probably do it for some mickey mouse firm and learn their bad habits. After the 5 years is up your alternate self has his degree and lands himself in a bluechip firm fast track learning from experienced engineers.

Just my opinion, flame away.

[G7PSK]

I had a friend go straight from school to work as a tech for Pye/Phillips in Cambridge he was taken on just because he had an amateurs licence, but that was back in 1968 so things were a lot different then now you need a PHD to flip fries for McD's.

[george graves]

Pay no attention to these bitter engineers that are stuck in a cubical, in a job they hate.     There's plenty of people that make money in EE without a degree.  But they don't work at a big company.

With that said, stay in school.

[Fsck]

You also (typically) get paid (or are able to charge) more for those pieces of paper.
Consultants with PhDs and many years of industry experience can really milk it.

[Mechatrommer]

...or he's just curious. I know I can be a bit bitchy sometimes too... but damn, be nice!

you cant imagine if the OP is your little brother. i have exactly one keep arguing like this, there will be always one "black sheep" in a family. i agree, if you want to be self employed, contract job or the like, you dont need shit except passion. but if you talking about job position? hehhhh.

[johansen]

I might be starting out down this road right now.

However, I wasted 5 years of my life in the military. very long, a most unique story. i am probably the only marine in US history that was building induction heaters in my barracks room, and got away with it. however, it was a waste of time because that experience is only valid within the companies that employ ex military technicians, and why i did it, i'm not quite sure. certainly got lucky that i stayed in a technical field.

But....the only reason military electronic technicians might be worth anything in the civilian world is due to artificial restrictions that exist down those deep rabbit holes most people stay far away from. (yes, i know what i'm talking about, i was running circles around the civilian technicians who worked for Boeing, xxx, xxx, and looking deep into the rabbit holes.. i suggested frequently that entire projects be scrapped, but that's not how the game is played moron!) having delved into classified shit from 40 years ago, learning Two's compliment from an ex cold war wire tapper in highschool.. 10 years ago, i was exposed to what makes the world go round.. and i'm disgusted.

That said, i'm working for someone part time who's been in the electronics business for 30 years.
There are "industry approved" ways of doing things that make absolutely no sense to me.
and a clear head who can think out of the box is all that is required to play this game.

that said, if you can afford the insurance, if you can incorporate, and sell your idea.
no one knows who you are!
Nations are merely corporations at this game!

ever wonder why we went to war with Iraq?
they went bankrupt, and we collected on the debt. but they protested....

[BulletMagnet83]

I managed to get a foot in the door with no qualifications to my name... which is more down to "right place right time" than whatever skills I did or didn't have! Being able to use scopes, PSUs and DMMs, and knowing my arse from my anode certainly helped It was enough to demonstrate potential, and as of yesterday I've officially enrolled on a foundation electronic engineering course, with a hope to progress to an HND... all the while gaining industry experience.

Not a bad way of doing things, but it was a pain in the arse and took a LONG time to get to the point where I thought I might have some sort of solid career path.

[woodchips]

No.

I went to uni as a mature student, and struggled. But it amazes me just how much of the degree course I have remembered, and used, decades later. And this isn't just the obvious, it is strength of materials, mechanics, electromagnetism and I was doing an electronics course. On the other hand I learnt nothing about digital design there.

I think that uni introduces you to books, lots of them, and you find that some are rather better than others. On line searches and ebooks may be the in thing, but sitting in a comfy chair with a dead tree is so much more concentrated.

University is so much more than lectures, it is being immersed in a learning culture that simply isn't available anywhere else. If you want to do something on your own, you can, there is the equipment and people to help.

[Rigby]

The late, great Jim Williams (certainly a person of note on these forums) was entirely self taught.

It can be done, but you will find great difficulty if you rely on self-taught qualifications, alone.  Jim Williams was a rare case, a true genius.

[M0BSW]

I had a friend go straight from school to work as a tech for Pye/Phillips in Cambridge he was taken on just because he had an amateurs licence, but that was back in 1968 so things were a lot different then now you need a PHD to flip fries for McD's.

I've also seen in Radcom the very occasional job in their that reads, Radio amateurs with experience in Microwave technology applications considered, so it must still happen. I also know another amateur that passed the exams the same time as I did, except about 30 years younger getting a position with a local TV repair company, I found that heart warming .

[free_electron]

A collegue of mine that retired just wrote her autobiography (she's 75...). You have to read that one (it's 33 pages long....) i will ask her if i can post it here.
A real eye opener on what is possible..

She has a degree ...in french ! ....

At the end of her career she designed multimillion gate asics and wrote the embedded firmware in a self designed language on a custom processor that does the predicitve error correction in harddisks. Only a few people in the world know how that works.... And this engine sits in about 50% of the worlds drives, quietly doing it's work retrieving bits from the noise...

She worked a while  for adaptec where she made the first SCSI controllers for PC and wrote the first drivers for DOS and Windows. she also worked for Maxtor and Kalok...

She started learning electronics by watching her boyfriend repair radios and tv with tubes in the 60's.... When he left she was pennyless and figured 'how hard could it be' so she bought a soldering iron and some early radio manuals and set off.
She writes code in fortran, pl1 , c , specman, verilog and systemverilog. She does timing closure, validation . The whole shebang.

You can pit her against any 'gold-plated magna cum laude msee' she'll run circles around him and kick his ass, all over the place.

Learning by doing....

[M0BSW]

A collegue of mine that retired just wrote her autobiography (she's 75...). You have to read that one (it's 33 pages long....) i will ask her if i can post it here.
A real eye opener on what is possible..

She has a degree ...in french ! ....

At the end of her career she designed multimillion gate asics and wrote the embedded firmware in a self designed language on a custom processor that does the predicitve error correction in harddisks. Only a few people in the world know how that works.... And this engine sits in about 50% of the worlds drives, quietly doing it's work retrieving bits from the noise...

She worked a while  for adaptec where she made the first SCSI controllers for PC and wrote the first drivers for DOS and Windows. she also worked for Maxtor and Kalok...

She started learning electronics by watching her boyfriend repair radios and tv with tubes in the 60's.... When he left she was pennyless and figured 'how hard could it be' so she bought a soldering iron and some early radio manuals and set off.
She writes code in fortran, pl1 , c , specman, verilog and systemverilog. She does timing closure, validation . The whole shebang.

You can pit her against any 'gold-plated magna cum laude msee' she'll run circles around him and kick his ass, all over the place.

Learning by doing....

Oh i love that, there was a program on TV over here about this man , his teachers said i=he would never make anything of his life, if making your own buisnees and becoming a multi millionaire, is not making anything of your life, i'll have some of that.

[Bored@Work]

Ah, the usual stuff. A few poster children are presented to prove skipping education is the right thing to do. But we never hear about the hordes who failed.

And seriously, do you think that someone who is made from the right stuff to make it on his own needs to ask some random, unknown people on the Internet? If you need to ask you are probably not the right stuff to do it on your own.

[free_electron]

ah yes,  the poster children.. .like Edison and Volta and Marconi and DeForest and Farnsworth and Tesla and all the others that did it without formal education, because there was non before they invented it in the first place

Having that piece of paper only proves one thing : you met the criteria to get that piece of paper ... nothing more , also nothing less. It is not mandatory to have the piece of paper to make a happy life for yourself. Let nobody tell you what you can and can not do in life. It's up to you and only you.

I'm colorblind. I don't see the color green. ( i see the luma, not the chroma for green) Every 'pedagogic advisor' said i would not be able to do electronics because i wouldn't be able to read the color codes on parts. If i ever meet those 'advisors' again (they are probably all retired now) i will stick my ohmmeter sideways in their ass, with the sharp probes pointing outwards, and then i'll slap em in the face with a couple of huge boards full of surface mounted parts.. morons.

Years later i did some layout for an IC. One of the bosses said i wouldn't be able to do that because of all the layers and all the colors. I just changed the color set in Opus. Instead of 2 shades of some wonky color for the metals i used red and blue , just like in most PCB tools. Problem solved. Chips worked just fine. The designers had to adapt to my color scheme ( red is traditionally used for drawing the n-wells . traditions can be broken. al they had to do when loading my design is click the 'apply default color scheme' button. when it came back i loaded my color profile.

[minimer]

I have Sorta,

So I will explain my thoughts here. I have been playing with electronics for a good 12 years give or take. I started at around 4 or 5 tearing things apart piece by piece. Now around 6 or seven my grandfather formally introduced me to some basic concepts. He taught me how to solder he taught me the fundamental differences between basic components and how to represent them graphically. Now around about 1st grade there about my mother a teacher in training at the time taught me algebra. This was essential to my love for electronics and allowed me to examine the wealth of entry level design books my grandfather had lying around from the late 70's early 80's. Most where radio shack branded  (tandy) project books but but a few where more advanced. I believe there was a book of nearly 1000 circuits in the lot. Now by Christmas of third grade I have accomplished every circuit in every one of those radio shack books and wire wrapped nearly half the designs in the big book of circuits as I think it was called.

This was also complimented by my grandfathers business at the time as an apple repair specialist and reseller. He gave me an old tandy color computer or coco for those out there who know what I'm talking about. He gave me his coco 2 and his coco 3 witch I had to repair and ultimately modify with a famous piggy backed RAM upgrade. You may be wondering why I would mention my programming experience in reference to my electronics experience and your question and well. As an independent contractor I design circuits, RF solutions, embedded hardware and software and sometimes even just stand alone software. I think its its a vital skill to have in addition to an electronics background.

Now I'm going to disappoint you, I did indeed attend college, I started around 15 and formally dropped out of highschool my sophomore year to enroll at said college. I worked for nearly 4 years in a EE research laboratory. It is there I learnt the meaning of most the observations I had made in my past. It was there I learnt about things such as ISP, JTAG, I2C, SPI, CAN, SWR, BODE and so many other things I cant begin to list them. However I will note, the vast majority of my knowledge came from practice. What I did learn in class was mostly useless in regard to electronics design. Now systems engineering controls and applied mathematics, algorithms these are the things you need to be an effective engineer that college has to offer you.

However it is interesting to note all of these things can be learned on your own, and when I left said college instead of finishing my degree I did in fact teach them to myself. I left college for mostly political reasons. And one day I will return.
But the moral of my story is, in order to teach your self you must first know what you don't know.

The most valuable thing I learnt in college was how to research and without that important piece of knowledge I would not be where I am today, designing everything from Autonomous aircraft to new antenna technologies even industrial automation and image classification software.

I hope that inspires you, I was ahead of the game by far in most peoples opinions but even I could not have known what I didn't know without a trip to college. And if you do go for the reasons I have mentioned go to a research college and get involved with a research center any way you can. A good one will allow you to grow to fit its requirements for you, likely volunteer at first but paid as you become effective.

[tld]

If so what do you do? has anyone really done well for themselves (job role) just from there own learning?

Not spot-on for what you're asking, but I've done this software development/consulting-stuffs.  I'm in my thirties now, and I can get a job easier than a lot of people with masters.

Here's what I'd really like people to understand though:

This is possible, but it's not easier than education, it's harder.  It's a lot of bloody hard work and dedication, and it requires multiple skillsets.  It's not enough to be good with computers, you also have to be good with self-directed learning.  You've got to be willing to start at rock bottom, and work your way up, and have people-skills.

When I started out with programming, I don't think it would have been possible for me to do the same with electronics.  Maybe for some, but probably not for me.  Even if just because it would have been prohibitively expensive.  A lot has changes since then though.  Tools are cheaper, access to information is a lot easier (books, datasheets... ).

I think it's probably possible to get into electronics without a formal degree, but it'll also probably be harder than getting into something like programming.  To some degree, you could say a program works if it runs and works as expected.  Not quite the same with electronics.  There's regulation and EMI, there's hazards and reliability, and so on.

These are often the kinds of things that are taught well, and harder to get an overview of.  If a circuit doesn't work, you'll know, and look into fixing it.  But how will you know if your design carries a flaw that leads to reduced reliability?  Turn it on and wait for 20 years to see what happens?

I'm thinking there's two ways to get into electronics without anything formal:

 * Start on your own, carry all the risk yourself.

 * Get into a company with a friendly culture, and something of an apprentice-ship-type position, where you can learn whatever you're lacking from someone.


(Oh; And even though I got where I am without a formal education, I absolutely reject the term "self taught".  Sure, a lot of it was self-directed learning, but there were lots of books written by great people, and later on I've worked with and learned from a lot of great people.  "Self taught" is just not an accurate description.  Point being, you *can* get somewhere without a formal education, but it's bloody hard, and while you can do it without an education, you probably can't do it alone, but neither would you have to if you find the right company).

tld

[edavid]

ah yes,  the poster children.. .like Edison and Volta and Marconi and DeForest and Farnsworth and Tesla and all the others that did it without formal education, because there was non before they invented it in the first place

Whoa, Volta was a professor of physics.

[David_AVD]

No university / college education for me.  Hell, I didn't even finish high school.  I got a job as a junior technician instead at the age of 16.  I did start my electronics hobby at an early age though.

I'm not in the "big time", but have owned a company with a few employees for about 20 years now.  The guys I employ have more qualifications than me, but I don't mind at all.

So, it depends on what you want to do and how driven you are.  Some job applications will require those bits of paper.  Some will require you to know stuff and care little about the papers.

[george graves]

No university / college education for me.  Hell, I didn't even finish high school.  I got a job as a junior technician instead at the age of 16.  I did start my electronics hobby at an early age though.

I'm not in the "big time", but have owned a company with a few employees for about 20 years now.  The guys I employ have more qualifications than me, but I don't mind at all.

So, it depends on what you want to do and how driven you are.  Some job applications will require those bits of paper.  Some will require you to know stuff and care little about the papers.

Mind if we ask what company?  And what you build?

[EEVblog]

Ah, the usual stuff. A few poster children are presented to prove skipping education is the right thing to do.

I don't think there is anyone who would seriously argue that skipping formal education "is the right thing to do" in this field.

The answer to the OP's question is yes, mostly certainly, countless people have made fantastic careers in engineering without formal education.
And as has been said by many people many times in these types of threads, the bit of paper matters less and less as your career goes on. In fact, many (rightly I think) say it only matters in order to "get your foot in the door". But that varies by country, industry, and company. In my experience, both as an employer and an employee, in Australia, very few companies give a toss about your qualifications once you have the relevant experience. You soon move your qualifications to nothing but a footnote at the end of your resume.
So I have found it very common in this industry in this country for those without qualifications to make successes of themselves, and likewise up for the food chain.
e.g. 2 year techs to get engineering jobs, 3 year degree/diploma people to get engineering research jobs, 4 year degree people to get jobs normally reserved for PhD people etc. And any combination both forward and backward in the food chain. If you have the skills, you can usually get the job.

Should the OP (or anyone else) skip formal study (although that was not asked), of course not, to not consider doing so is very foolish.
But if for some reason, you end up in a life position where you don't have that opportunity for formal study, then yes, you can still make it.

[banedon]

One thing to be said about having those bits of paper (at least in the software and support industries): it gets you more money more quickly. Otheriwse (unless you're lucky and/or very, very gifted) you tend to have to put up with lower pay until you get the experience.  Of course, gettng the bits of paper can be expensive all by itself!
Anoterh thing is that when you're self taught you can end up with some collosal holes in your understanding/learning/experience as you have to rely on whatever comes across your path.

But, as others have said:  Don't quit school and if you've already left school then keep your day job and see if the electronics work out as a side line (at least at first). Better safe than sorry when it comes to income IMHO.

[marshallh]

I'll get back to you in a few years.. but right now I have a roof over my head paid for with self designed product, and complete freedom. Started when I was told by advisors in college "You won't be designing PCBs here, that's below your pay grade" and then being asked to lecture the faculty on BGA processes one year later.. I left

[MatCat]

The issue isn't can you get a job doing something you have no formal education for, it's really about YOU, do YOU have the skills to do the job?  Do you have a passion for it and spend your time really getting to know it and using it practically?  You can spend 8 years in collage and really learn nothing, you can spend 8 years in collage and take that knowledge and memorize it but have no real capability to practically use it.  Ultimately you don't need a piece of paper from some accredited school to validate your capability to do something, as a human I would imagine you have the capability to learn a subject matter on your own.  It shouldn't be about sticking it to your parents for not going to collage, it should be about what you can and want to do and making it work, if your motivation is to show your parents their idea to send you to collage was silly then your motivations are wrong and will most likely fail.

I have no formal collage education, in-fact I even dropped out of high school!  (I am not going to go into details but lets just say I could of technically graduated HS at the age of 14 if I really wanted to at the time), being that my passion early on was programming that was the field I took to as a professional, I have worked on websites that get millions of unique visits a month, I have written software that runs in a vast majority of collages, wrote a few modules for a piece of software that has been used by fortune 500 companies (I did that at the age of 16 actually), so I would say a formal education is not required, but I also have a passion for learning and can do it quite well.  I got seriously into electronics about a year and a half ago, and I already have an electronics company now with a product listed on the largest vendor in my market.  I have met very few people that can learn at the speed I can, and that can intuitively understand things as quickly as I can so my little story is not a 'I stuck it to my parents you can to' speech, but more of a yes it's possible if you are of the right type of person to make it happen for yourself. 

[AlfBaz]

No university / college education for me.  Hell, I didn't even finish high school.  I got a job as a junior technician instead at the age of 16.  I did start my electronics hobby at an early age though.

I'm not in the "big time", but have owned a company with a few employees for about 20 years now.  The guys I employ have more qualifications than me, but I don't mind at all.

So, it depends on what you want to do and how driven you are.  Some job applications will require those bits of paper.  Some will require you to know stuff and care little about the papers.

Knowing your own back ground would you or have you considered somebody talented but lacking the qualifications?

[David_AVD]

No university / college education for me.  Hell, I didn't even finish high school.  I got a job as a junior technician instead at the age of 16.  I did start my electronics hobby at an early age though.

I'm not in the "big time", but have owned a company with a few employees for about 20 years now.  The guys I employ have more qualifications than me, but I don't mind at all.

So, it depends on what you want to do and how driven you are.  Some job applications will require those bits of paper.  Some will require you to know stuff and care little about the papers.

Knowing your own back ground would you or have you considered somebody talented but lacking the qualifications?

All of the people I have employed over the years were chosen on what they knew or the potential I could see in them.  The fact that some of them had qualifications was not a deciding factor.

Some of the ones who were rejected had qualifications, some didn't.  It just didn't seem (for me) to be a reliable indicator of skills.

We are all constantly learning (electronics is such a vast field) and the depth of knowledge of the team improves over time.  It's not one way either.  I learn new stuff from my guys all the time.

[Wilkins]

Most employers will just toss your resume if there isn't some form of formal qualification on there unfortunately.

That's not to say you need to do a 4 year bachelors to land yourself an engineering job, an associate degree/tafe diploma can easily land you a position if you are able to demonstrate that you have the knowledge/skills required for the job, it depends on the employer.

It may even land you a job over a graduate engineer, because 99% of them do not know one end of the screwdriver/soldering iron/multimeter/CRO probe from the other, or where to stick it.

[woodchips]

Wide range of replies, and advice, good to read.

There are a lot of engineers. You read that China or India are producing 200,000 or whatever per year, where do they all go? If it is anything like the UK most, possibly 85%, aren't really interested in engineering but ended up on the course, it looked like a safe career for a lifetime.

They are not the competition for jobs. It is the people who are self taught, degree or not, who make the new products and get things fixed. Not really competition as more of soul mates. The snag, as has been mentioned here, is to get to the interview and that sometimes is the only use a degree has.

Also been mentioned but I found that hitting 35 or so meant that the easy job hops became near impossible. Age requires too high a salary compared with a 24 year old. You are now stuck, as mentioned, in a cubicle doing a job you now hate. Seems to me self employment is the only way out, but it can be risky, low paid and all the other disadvantages. If you are one of the wealthy success stories then well down, but you are a 5%.

[MatCat]

In the software world it always amazed me how collage educated programmers are, I remember this one specific guy that came in to intern for a company I was working for as head programmer, while I was interviewing him I asked, "What software have you developed?", his reply, "Well I haven't developed anything yet", keep in mind this is a guy that just got done 4 years of collage, I looked at him and was like, "Uhm, you had to have programmed something?" and he replies, "Well I have done plenty of homework!", I facepalmed immediately, basically the kid never did anything on his own, and his entire programming experience literally only consisted of doing homework and that was it, and not only that but he had no passion for programming, I asked him about it and he said he chose it for financial stability and didn't really care that much for it, blah I couldn't work doing something I didn't actually like doing, boggled my mind.

[Rigby]

I've discovered that those who have passion for development always, always, always have far greater skill than those that do not, no matter what the education level.  I imagine this is somewhat true for other professions as well. 

I've never interviewed an electronics engineer.