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Is the Rigol DS1054Z still the best entry level digital scope for the price?
Posted by
radcom123
on 30 Apr, 2017 20:01
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Hi there i'm more of less a beginner/novice (I think) I have being messing about with electronics since I was little (now 25) and I currently have a old scopex 14D-15 I bought from a radio rally a some time ago. I currently mainly do stuff with arduinos & raspberry pis but I hope to do more in the future, and at the moment i'm trying to debug an cheap SPI TFT touchscreen module connected to a wemos mini (the screen I have got working but no matter what the touch screen refuses to work and i'm trying to look at the SPI bus to try to see whats going on and my old scope can't do it).
I'm have been looking at getting a Rigol DS1054Z for some time now as it has the 4 channels and can be unlocked to 100Mhz with SPI, i2c, and serial decode options using the riglol unlock thing. as I will mainly be using it for digital electronics i.e. Arduino, Raspberry Pi. The SPI, i2c, and serial decoders seem very useful to me . I know it doesn't have a logic analyser built in (which is a same, but you can't have it all) but I figure the 4 channels will probably be more useful to me and if I need a logic analyser I can always buy one later when I need more than 4 channels
Before I buy one I would like to know a few things:
1. My budget really can't stretch much more than £350ish inc vat+p&p (~$450) so is the DS1054Z still the best value (as of April 2017) assuming it can still be unlocked to 100Mhz with the protocol decoders? Or is there something better for a similar price with similar features i.e 4 channels, decoders, etc ?
2. The DS1054Z scope I'm looking at ordering has the 00.04.04.SP3 firmware preloaded from what I can tell (https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/productdetails_popup.asp?productcode=FIRMTEST) does the option unlock exploit still work (from my research some sources say it does but would be nice to see clearly confirmed for me)? - yes it does still work
3. If the hack still works is the 500µV thing still a thing or does it work in the 00.04.04.SP3 firmware? - this doesn't work and never will
4. I'm currently looking at buying this
https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DS1054Z-Digital-Oscilloscope-p/ds1054z.htm as it seems to be the offical UK reseller and they seem to be as cheap as anyone else I can find(but I am open to buying 2nd hand locally I just missed one on here earlier in the month
) does anyone know of a better price?
5. Is this the best board for this post or should it be in test gear or buy/sell?
Many Thanks
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#1 Reply
Posted by
stj
on 30 Apr, 2017 20:20
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#2 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 30 Apr, 2017 20:26
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Before I buy one I would like to know a few things:
1. My budget really can't stretch much more than £350ish inc vat+p&p (~$450) so is the DS1054Z still the best value (as of April 2017) assuming it can still be unlocked to 100Mhz with the protocol decoders? Or is there something better for a similar price with similar features i.e 4 channels, decoders, etc ?
Maybe not... It might be the best 4 channel scope but the new Siglent 200 MHz 2 Channel SDS1000X-E is going to give it a run. The Siglent JUST started shipping so there aren't any reviews yet. If you can wait a few weeks there should be some comparisons. All of the decoding features are free so there is no reason to hack anything.
2. The DS1054Z scope I'm looking at ordering has the 00.04.04.SP3 firmware preloaded from what I can tell (https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/productdetails_popup.asp?productcode=FIRMTEST) does the option unlock exploit still work (from my research some sources say it does but would be nice to see clearly confirmed for me)?
Yes
3. If the hack still works is the 500µV thing still a thing or does it work in the 00.04.04.SP3 firmware?
Doesn't work and never will.
4. I'm currently looking at buying this https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DS1054Z-Digital-Oscilloscope-p/ds1054z.htm as it seems to be the offical UK reseller and they seem to be as cheap as anyone else I can find(but I am open to buying 2nd hand locally I just missed one on here earlier in the month ) does anyone know of a better price?
No comment on this, I live in the US
5. Is this the best board for this post or should it be in test gear or buy/sell?
Many Thanks
Test Equipment is probably the best place but this question comes up in the Beginners forum just about once a week.
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#3 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 30 Apr, 2017 20:34
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I bought the DS1054Z specifically because it had 4 channels. I wanted to see all of the SPI signals. For years I had been using an analog scope so a 4 channel DSO was quite a change.
Now, what about the tradeoff between 4 channels (not always necessary) and increased bandwidth? I don't know where I come out on that. Would I spend ANOTHER $379 to get more bandwidth when my analog scope goes to 350 MHz? I haven't done it yet but I haven't ruled it out.
Bandwidth is a big deal when you consider that you should display at least the 7th harmonic to see a decent square wave. So, 14 MHz for the DS1054Z and nearly 30 MHz for the SDS1000X-E. The difference in the range of application is huge.
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#4 Reply
Posted by
tautech
on 30 Apr, 2017 21:05
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Before I buy one I would like to know a few things:
1. My budget really can't stretch much more than £350ish inc vat+p&p (~$450) so is the DS1054Z still the best value (as of April 2017) assuming it can still be unlocked to 100Mhz with the protocol decoders? Or is there something better for a similar price with similar features i.e 4 channels, decoders, etc ?
Maybe not... It might be the best 4 channel scope but the new Siglent 200 MHz 2 Channel SDS1000X-E is going to give it a run. The Siglent JUST started shipping so there aren't any reviews yet. If you can wait a few weeks there should be some comparisons. All of the decoding features are free so there is no reason to hack anything.
They're coming.
First look here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds-1202x-e-review-on-youtube/msg1197411/#msg1197411
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#5 Reply
Posted by
daveyk
on 01 May, 2017 00:53
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#6 Reply
Posted by
ebclr
on 01 May, 2017 01:06
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Still the king
4 channels
Easily hackable to full version 100 Mhz
Works even with 120 Mhz
Nothing even near, they are some 2 channels that my get you like the Siglent SDS1202X 200MHz but same sample rate as Ds1054Z, is more expensive, only 2 channels, much bigger screen ( that is the point for ths scope ).
Also is available several cheaper ones like the hantek but isn't decent have a lot of problems, and also the expensive ones like the keisight but does not justify the huge price difference especially if you consider price/performance. Keysight is the triple price for 20% better usability . Is like a Ferrari everybody wants's but very few have. The concept of low cost for Keysigth, Tektronics and R&S are a joke, all 3 have good quality performance but at ridiculous high price.
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#7 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 01 May, 2017 03:34
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Yea, but 1ghz sample rate is not good for 200MHz BW is it? I would think them minimum sample rate is 1GHz for every 100MHz in BW and then I'm told that is marginal is trying to monitor fast risetime signals?
Dave
1054z has 1 GHz for 100MHz 4 channels so it turns out to be the same.
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Keysight 1000x? Maybe only two channels (two and half) but the interface is not sluggish like the Chinese scopes.
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#9 Reply
Posted by
tautech
on 01 May, 2017 04:39
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Keysight 1000x? Maybe only two channels (two and half) but the interface is not sluggish like the Chinese scopes.
I can assure you there is nothing sluggish about the new SDS1202X-E. The thing flies.
Hunt for the Defpom's vids on YT about them.
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If you re looking for a 4 channel scope it is the best bang per buck . But for the prize you cannot expect the best quality , performance and support . No company cannot give away highest quality for free . There are thousands of postings here in the forum of the firmware , performance and quality issues . But you have to judge yourself if the issues are a problem for you or not . Many users here are working with this scope on spi bus projects and they seem to be really happy with it . So I think it also would help you to go forward with your projects even with the bugs . Basically these scopes work , not perfectly but it is a good compromise with a low budget
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#11 Reply
Posted by
Karel
on 01 May, 2017 11:40
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The DS1054Z is still king in this price class.
I would never go back to a two channel scope.
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#12 Reply
Posted by
VEGETA
on 01 May, 2017 12:35
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Having 4 channels is still the biggest advantage regardless of other stuff. The price is also reasonable enough.
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#13 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 01 May, 2017 15:07
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Keysight 1000x? Maybe only two channels (two and half) but the interface is not sluggish like the Chinese scopes.
I can assure you there is nothing sluggish about the new SDS1202X-E. The thing flies.
Hunt for the Defpom's vids on YT about them.
I LIKE the UI response!
I have only watched the first one but I sure like the FFT function.
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#14 Reply
Posted by
Karel
on 01 May, 2017 15:23
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#15 Reply
Posted by
ebastler
on 01 May, 2017 15:47
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I LIKE the UI response!
Could you point me to a time in the video where he adjusts the vertical and/or horizontal offset, ideally while multiple traces are visible on the screen? I fast-forwarded through the videos (find them a bit tedious to watch, to be honest), and did not come across any operation that would be taxing for the UI. Thanks!
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#16 Reply
Posted by
james_s
on 01 May, 2017 15:50
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Yea, but 1ghz sample rate is not good for 200MHz BW is it? I would think them minimum sample rate is 1GHz for every 100MHz in BW and then I'm told that is marginal is trying to monitor fast risetime signals?
Dave
Sure it is, most waveforms are repetitive in nature, so a DSO simply assembles the waveform by sampling multiple cycles, it works pretty well. My 1GHz bandwidth scope has a max sample rate of 4 GS/sec and it has no trouble displaying waveforms up near the bandwidth limit. The only time you really need max capture rate is for single shot transient events.
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#17 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 01 May, 2017 16:10
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I was watching the SPI decoding part and it seems Siglent didn't take advantage of using the Ext trigger for CS'. I want to read the manual before saying anything about using 'holdoff' to find the first transition of the packet. In the video, the channels are MOSI and Clk.
Since CS' frames the packet, it is a pretty important signal.
Overall, the decoding feature seems pretty nice. I like the table display.
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#18 Reply
Posted by
radcom123
on 01 May, 2017 16:45
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I watched both of the reviews as well and also didn't get why you can't use the ext trigger for the CS but I do like the idea of the display table, but that in its self isn't really enough to go for it over the rigol. The biggest draw for me for the sig over the rigol is the 200Mhz bandwidth but I don't know how useful that extra bandwidth will be to me as I'm not looking at doing any RF stuff, and my gut feeling is the ability to see more at the same time with the extra 2 channels is going to be more useful to me than the higher bandwidth but I don't know enough about scopes to fully understand the implications about the bandwidth.
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#19 Reply
Posted by
james_s
on 01 May, 2017 17:14
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Bandwidth largely determines the max rise time you can accurately display. 100MHz is probably enough for most stuff but it never hurts to have more bandwidth. I got by with a 100MHz analog scope for many years, but now that I have a newer high bandwidth scope I wonder how I got by without it. Still, for entry level 100MHz is probably enough. You can still look at somewhat faster signals than that, you just have to understand how the limited bandwidth affects what you see.
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#20 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 01 May, 2017 20:02
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Bandwidth largely determines the max rise time you can accurately display. 100MHz is probably enough for most stuff but it never hurts to have more bandwidth. I got by with a 100MHz analog scope for many years, but now that I have a newer high bandwidth scope I wonder how I got by without it. Still, for entry level 100MHz is probably enough. You can still look at somewhat faster signals than that, you just have to understand how the limited bandwidth affects what you see.
In the video, the author runs the 200 MHz scope up to 400 MHz. The display is messed up with aliasing but you can still see the waveform. 300 MHz actually looked pretty good. Attenuated, sure, but the waveform was there. Then again, it was a sine wave. I would have rather seen a square wave.
I need to understand a lot more about the decoding to get interested in yet another scope. Does it just decode the screen image? Does it decode the entire buffer?
I like the idea of being able to turn off all of the measurements with a single button.
I still have no idea what segmented memory is all about and why I would care. The author seems to understand it and praises the scope so it must be important.
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#21 Reply
Posted by
tautech
on 01 May, 2017 20:17
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#22 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 01 May, 2017 20:32
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#23 Reply
Posted by
james_s
on 01 May, 2017 20:36
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Why the issues with ebay? Are there fake Siglent and Rigol scopes out there? I would not buy one out of China on ebay but a used one from the US would not raise any red flags.
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#24 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 01 May, 2017 21:27
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Why the issues with ebay? Are there fake Siglent and Rigol scopes out there? I would not buy one out of China on ebay but a used one from the US would not raise any red flags.
The manufacturers didn't want a 'gray market' in their products. This is actually pretty common and a huge problem in the SCUBA industry where regulators are available in foreign countries (relative to US) for considerably less money. The customers in the US are getting ripped and will often order from foreign sources but the manufacturer claims you won't get a warranty and your local retailer may no perform the usual maintenance. Sometimes retailers order from these sources in bulk and sell the products for less than MSRP. Not the kind of thing the manufacturer wants to see as they try to protect their authorized resellers.
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#25 Reply
Posted by
ebclr
on 02 May, 2017 02:56
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" Are there fake Siglent and Rigol"
For sure not, is Rigol and Siglent the ones who backed those online suppliers, They can't refuse orders, this is not acceptable in China. China way of thinking is more free, they really don't care about this artificially created protection for certain groups even on the front they claim to support, but on the back, they sell to anybody who has a nice order. Same applies to theyr supplyer, China is a communist country with the strongest jungle capitalism.
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#26 Reply
Posted by
james_s
on 02 May, 2017 03:47
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The manufacturers didn't want a 'gray market' in their products. This is actually pretty common and a huge problem in the SCUBA industry where regulators are available in foreign countries (relative to US) for considerably less money. The customers in the US are getting ripped and will often order from foreign sources but the manufacturer claims you won't get a warranty and your local retailer may no perform the usual maintenance. Sometimes retailers order from these sources in bulk and sell the products for less than MSRP. Not the kind of thing the manufacturer wants to see as they try to protect their authorized resellers.
But how is a used item gray market? I've never heard of anyone being challenged about selling used equipment.
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#27 Reply
Posted by
TNorthover
on 02 May, 2017 04:00
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#28 Reply
Posted by
EEVblog
on 02 May, 2017 04:04
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Before I buy one I would like to know a few things:
1. My budget really can't stretch much more than £350ish inc vat+p&p (~$450) so is the DS1054Z still the best value (as of April 2017) assuming it can still be unlocked to 100Mhz with the protocol decoders? Or is there something better for a similar price with similar features i.e 4 channels, decoders, etc ?
For 4 channel, no, nothing else can touch the DS1054Z.
For 2 channels, or absolutel minimum cost outlay, there are arguably better choices.
A lot of people have asked for a Keysight/Rigol/Siglent/GWinstek shootout, but it's just not fair to compare 2CH and 4CH scopes.
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#29 Reply
Posted by
tautech
on 02 May, 2017 05:14
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You must be aware Rigol tried this on too, or have you conveniently forgotten ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/ds1052e-removed-from-ebay/
So your defence of this practice is "they do it too"? Surely you see that's inadequate for anyone trying to represent Siglent's interests?
There are members here that just can't let things be and periodically throw muck. The are often fanbois of competing brands to Siglent (in this case) and need be reminded that their favourite brand is not as squeaky clean and virginal as they might think.
If you want/need to research this issue further I'd advise you to watch one of Dave's vids where he interviews the CEO of Siglent and asks him about this matter. His reply reflects/confirms the private internal communications at that time that I was party to.
https://www.eevblog.com/2015/12/03/eevblog-826-siglent-ceo-eric-qin-visits-the-eevblog-lab/
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fwiw as a diehard analogue oscilloscope user, I chose the Siglent SDS1104CFL at a competitive 'entry level' price mainly because I wanted 4 channels with dedicated controls above each input, and of course the digital capture and single shot stuff etc.
Another plus was the separate trigger input on the front panel after the 4 channels, and USB features.
The -last minute- Rigol DS1054z deal breaker for me was the shared controls for the 4 channels (too much thinking on a job = kiss), otherwise I would have pulled the trigger on the Rigol based on EEV reviews.
Not sure (or lose sleep) which is the 'better' DSO overall
comparing a 100mhz fully pimped out Rigol DS1054z vs Siglent SDS1104CFL (4ch 100mhz model)
but I got one I know I will use more often, without trying to remember what knob does what, and searching user PDFs for that elusive menu selection location,
or why I can't get out of some snap frozen bonus freebie mode etc
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#31 Reply
Posted by
BravoV
on 02 May, 2017 07:08
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I watched both of the reviews as well and also didn't get why you can't use the ext trigger for the CS but I do like the idea of the display table, but that in its self isn't really enough to go for it over the rigol. The biggest draw for me for the sig over the rigol is the 200Mhz bandwidth but I don't know how useful that extra bandwidth will be to me as I'm not looking at doing any RF stuff, and my gut feeling is the ability to see more at the same time with the extra 2 channels is going to be more useful to me than the higher bandwidth but I don't know enough about scopes to fully understand the implications about the bandwidth.
It may sounds trivial , but just want to remind you, as an enthusiast my self, and experienced probing results on 2 channels scope like you do now, made me remember when the time I was curious and really eager to see other probing points, while not wanting to touch the existing two points that were attached to the scope.
Once I have a 4 ch scope, that was really an eyes opener, learned and experienced a lot from the extra channels.
Believed most hobbyist/enthusiast or even experienced EE, must had this kind of moment when probing, for hobbyist like us, the extra 3rd and 4th channels do bring more learning value, at least for me.
My 1/4 watt resistor worth of advice.
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#32 Reply
Posted by
dimkasta
on 02 May, 2017 09:09
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I am in the same position, trying to control myself from pulling the trigger too fast on something to replace or compliment my ds1052e.
For me, the biggest deal breaker with the Rigol is the lame FFT.
I do not really have much use for 4 channels (referenced on the same ground level). I do mostly analog stuff anyway.
Plus, I am getting a feeling that Rigol will probably respond to Siglent's new entry level scope with something new. This could render 1054 kinda obsolete and could possibly beat the new Siglent.
And could further reduce the price on 1054, or create a wave of more nicely priced used ones
I would also not dismiss the good old ds1052e if you can find one used. Awesome for the price. You will probably just have to replace the encoders for a few dollars and it will be like new.
For now, the new Siglent seems to have a much nicer FFT, and the biggest bw is always nice. I need to see some deeper reviews though.
Another one I am considering is the Micsig tbook 1072 or 1074 which seem to be very nice. And they seem very active in firmware development as well.
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#33 Reply
Posted by
tautech
on 02 May, 2017 09:22
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I am in the same position, trying to control myself from pulling the trigger too fast on something to replace or compliment my ds1052e.
For me, the biggest deal breaker with the Rigol is the lame FFT.
I do not really have much use for 4 channels (referenced on the same ground level). I do mostly analog stuff anyway.
Plus, I am getting a feeling that Rigol will probably respond to Siglent's new entry level scope with something new. This could render 1054 kinda obsolete and could possibly beat the new Siglent.
And could further reduce the price on 1054, or create a wave of more nicely priced used ones
I would also not dismiss the good old ds1052e if you can find one used. Awesome for the price. You will probably just have to replace the encoders for a few dollars and it will be like new.
For now, the new Siglent seems to have a much nicer FFT, and the biggest bw is always nice. I need to see some deeper reviews though.
Another one I am considering is the Micsig tbook 1072 or 1074 which seem to be very nice. And they seem very active in firmware development as well.
Wise comments but you've overlooked some other possibilities. Can't say more.
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Hiya
I've just bought a DS1054Z, one of the attractions was that in Dave's review he said that the options were available for a limited time (36hours?) and the time was only used if the option was used, not just while the scope was turned on.
I have a use for the options e.g. serial decoding in the future, but would only be for a few hours at most since nearly all I do is analogue - enabling me to take advantage of these and getting used to them while still being in warranty at least for the first year - then I could consider the 'hack'.
Unfortunately I noticed this morning that the option time on my scope is being reduced by its on time.
So I will only have these for a couple of weeks without the 'hack'
So I'm not very happy.
Firmware: 00.04.04
Cheers
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#35 Reply
Posted by
dimkasta
on 02 May, 2017 10:32
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Wise comments but you've overlooked some other possibilities. Can't say more.
At the same price point with similar community "acceptance" levels?
Please do say more
On pm if you have reasons to not do it publicly
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#36 Reply
Posted by
ebclr
on 02 May, 2017 10:34
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You can still buy the license, if you don't want to hack
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#37 Reply
Posted by
Karel
on 02 May, 2017 10:40
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I have a use for the options e.g. serial decoding in the future, but would only be for a few hours at most since nearly all I do is analogue - enabling me to take advantage of these and getting used to them while still being in warranty at least for the first year - then I could consider the 'hack'.
Unfortunately I noticed this morning that the option time on my scope is being reduced by its on time.
So I will only have these for a couple of weeks without the 'hack'
There's no need to be unhappy. Just perform the hack. In the rare case you need to send it back for
service under warranty, you uninstall the options as described here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1149554/#msg1149554The changes that your scope will end up completely dead, preventing you from uninstalling the options, look pretty slim to me.
Personally, it didn't withhold me from performing the hack, but it's your scope and you have to decide ofcourse.
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#38 Reply
Posted by
madires
on 02 May, 2017 11:10
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Yes, if you're looking for a 4-ch DSO. For a 2-ch scope there are alternatives, but it all boils down to WYSIWYG. So don't expect any firmware updates or good support. Don't overvalue fancy features like FFT, unless you already know what you need. As the hobby develops you'll know later on if the DSO's simple FFT is fine for you or if you should get a Spectrum Analyzer, for example.
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#39 Reply
Posted by
cowana
on 02 May, 2017 11:26
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For most beginners tinkering with arduino type stuff, you really can't beat having the four channels - being able to see exactly what is happening across a set of IO pins, or through multiple stages of an analogue filter is invaluable.
I don't see the 100MHz bandwidth as much of a limit - typically I2C runs at 400kHz, and SPI at a few MHz (when used to talk to sensors on an 8-bit arduino or other simple micro).
I often end up enabling the 20MHz bandwidth limit to clean up some noise on signals.
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#40 Reply
Posted by
ebastler
on 02 May, 2017 11:40
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I don't see the 100MHz bandwidth as much of a limit - typically I2C runs at 400kHz, and SPI at a few MHz (when used to talk to sensors on an 8-bit arduino or other simple micro).
I would agree -- for the hobby applications I am interested in, there seems to be a bit of a no-man's land above 100 MHz (or even less than that). Microcontroller clocks and the "pedestrian" serial busses are easily accessible with <= 100 MHz bandwidth. And the level requires
much more bandwidth -- e.g. HDMI, USB, PC processors.
I have personally not come across an application where 200 MHz would have enabled me to do something which was not accessible at 100 MHz. But I'm sure someone will point out valid examples any moment!
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You can still buy the license, if you don't want to hack
I realise that - however one of the selling points for me was the possibility of trying out the options in the relatively near future, 36 hours of which would have lasted me for months.
This 'cheap' scope is a major outlay for me, the ability to have these options available, with myself carefully using the time available, decided this was for me rather than a 2-channel scope.
Cheers
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#42 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 02 May, 2017 13:32
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The manufacturers didn't want a 'gray market' in their products. This is actually pretty common and a huge problem in the SCUBA industry where regulators are available in foreign countries (relative to US) for considerably less money. The customers in the US are getting ripped and will often order from foreign sources but the manufacturer claims you won't get a warranty and your local retailer may no perform the usual maintenance. Sometimes retailers order from these sources in bulk and sell the products for less than MSRP. Not the kind of thing the manufacturer wants to see as they try to protect their authorized resellers.
But how is a used item gray market? I've never heard of anyone being challenged about selling used equipment.
Yes, I have a problem with the idea I can't sell my used equipment as well. But this is old news, it isn't a current issue and, yet, it keeps getting dredged up. Over and over... Old news... Just look at eBay for alternative facts.
The other issue that was mentioned a few posts above is the lack of firmware updates (I suspect aimed at Rigol) where there have been quite a few updates in the 2+ years the scope has been on the market. I have done two official updates in the several months I have had mine.
If you watch the inventory levels at a place like Tequipment, you get the idea that they sell about 1000 DS1054Zs per week. And they're just one supplier! This scope must be the best selling model of all time.
Adding features to a DSO like decoding or FFT increases a manufacturer's NRE costs. But it's a one time deal spread over the sale of tens of thousands of scopes. I can see Rigol supporting the DS1054Z for quite a while if some new scope doesn't come along and unseat the absolute ruler of the low end scope market.
Until I bought the DS1054Z, I worked around the 2 channel versus 4 channel thing for decades. I bought the scope specifically for the 4 channels and decoding. If I need bandwidth, I'll drag out my Tektronix 485 350 MHz scope. But I also bought the DS1054Z because it is inexpensive. If I had to pay, say, $800, I wouldn't have bought it. But for $400, no problem! Sign me up!
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I am constantly growing more and more appreciative of the z-box. It has its frustrating "features" and bugs that haven't been adequately fixed, but I really like its display features especially much. Recently I've been looking at screenshots from other scopes like Siglent and Atten and even Tektronix, and the Rigol manages to display more information in a "prettier" form than some of those others. And I don't find the user interface difficult at all, but then I have a lot of practice using it.
Now, the reliability of the information it is telling me is another issue altogether, and certainly more important than the "cosmetics" above. Mostly I think it can be trusted but I have come across several instances when certain measurements seem unreliable. I'm not talking about the RMS issue, which does seem to have been resolved in the last-but-one firmware update. Phase angle between two channel signals is one such problematic area for the automatic measurements.
I wish the cursors would report phase angle, but they only report time and voltage positions and differences. I just figured out how to get phase angle from the cursors! Using the "Units > Degrees" and the "Set Range" buttons deep in the Cursors menu!
I particularly like the utility and appearance of this display of all the available single-channel measurements:
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#44 Reply
Posted by
janoc
on 02 May, 2017 15:04
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Yes, if you're looking for a 4-ch DSO. For a 2-ch scope there are alternatives, but it all boils down to WYSIWYG. So don't expect any firmware updates or good support. Don't overvalue fancy features like FFT, unless you already know what you need. As the hobby develops you'll know later on if the DSO's simple FFT is fine for you or if you should get a Spectrum Analyzer, for example.
Another thing is that you can always pull the data from the scope - the Rigol has both USB and Ethernet, USB stick is also an option - and do a full analysis on a PC. It is both faster and more accurate than what the scope alone can manage. There is plenty of free software for doing this and the exported data format is easy to work with.
So unless one uses something like FFT every day or needs to do complex serial decoding (where the Rigol arguably does suck), there are ways around those issues.
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#45 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 02 May, 2017 15:25
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I don't see the 100MHz bandwidth as much of a limit - typically I2C runs at 400kHz, and SPI at a few MHz (when used to talk to sensors on an 8-bit arduino or other simple micro).
I would agree -- for the hobby applications I am interested in, there seems to be a bit of a no-man's land above 100 MHz (or even less than that). Microcontroller clocks and the "pedestrian" serial busses are easily accessible with <= 100 MHz bandwidth. And the level requires much more bandwidth -- e.g. HDMI, USB, PC processors.
The reason for the gap is cost. The nearest competitor to the DS1054Z costs around $1200 and getting even more bandwidth drives the cost well beyond the hobby level.
I have personally not come across an application where 200 MHz would have enabled me to do something which was not accessible at 100 MHz. But I'm sure someone will point out valid examples any moment!
I think my FPGA projects would benefit from more bandwidth. I usually run them at 50 MHz and the 200 MHz Siglent might allow me to display up to the 5th harmonic. Not everything runs at 50 MHz and my logic analyzer will capture at 200 MHz so all is not lost by having just 100 MHz bandwidth.
It's the square waves that drive the bandwidth requirement. You need a bunch of harmonics.
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#46 Reply
Posted by
ebastler
on 02 May, 2017 17:19
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The reason for the gap is cost. The nearest competitor to the DS1054Z costs around $1200 and getting even more bandwidth drives the cost well beyond the hobby level.
Actually I meant a gap in relevant applications requiring that bandwidth, not in available TME. But the TME gap is very real too, for the reasons you mention. I wonder to what extent this is just pricing policy -- I don't think making a scope with twice the sampling rate and bandwidth would triple the cost.
I think my FPGA projects would benefit from more bandwidth. I usually run them at 50 MHz and the 200 MHz Siglent might allow me to display up to the 5th harmonic. Not everything runs at 50 MHz and my logic analyzer will capture at 200 MHz so all is not lost by having just 100 MHz bandwidth.
It's the square waves that drive the bandwidth requirement. You need a bunch of harmonics.
But most of the signals live inside the FPGA anyway... In my FPGA tinkering so far, the signals I brought out were either much slower and hence easily accessible, or were way out of my DS1054Z's range (HDMI).
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#47 Reply
Posted by
ebclr
on 03 May, 2017 03:52
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200 Mhz at 1 Gs , isn't that different from the DS1054Z 100Mhz at 1 Gs/ especially if you consider that the Rigol frontend can go easily higher than 100 Mhz, 120 Mhz for sure, tested without no attenuation with my SDG2122X
The point is price
SDS1202X-E 380 USD for 2 channels 1G/s max , Analog front end 200 Mhz
DS1054Z 399 USD hacked 4 chanells 1G/s max, , Analog front end 100 Mhz ( can go higher under specified)
Basically, you are trading 4ch to 2 ch for 19 USD, because with same sample rate the 200Mhz will be nothing. Don't expect Siglent to be king of usability on firmware, same Chinese thinking
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#48 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 03 May, 2017 15:08
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200 Mhz at 1 Gs , isn't that different from the DS1054Z 100Mhz at 1 Gs/ especially if you consider that the Rigol frontend can go easily higher than 100 Mhz, 120 Mhz for sure, tested without no attenuation with my SDG2122X
In the video, the author pumped 400 MHz into the Siglent. It wasn't pretty but 300 MHz looked pretty good. Attenuated a bit but probably workable.
Basically, you are trading 4ch to 2 ch for 19 USD, because with same sample rate the 200Mhz will be nothing. Don't expect Siglent to be king of usability on firmware, same Chinese thinking
With the Rigol, you split 1 GS/s over 4 channels at 100 MHz and get 250 MS/s or 2.5 times sampling at 100 MHz.
For the Siglent, you split 1 GS/s over 2 channels at 200 MHz and get 250 MS/s or 2.5 times sampling at 200 MHz.
It seems to me that the sample rate is about the same with all channels in use.
The Rigol has the advantage of 1 GS/s over 1 channel at 100 MHz or 10 times sampling versus the Siglent with 1 GS/s at 200 MHz or 5 times sampling. Fair enough! But it's 200 MHz, not 100 MHz and 2.5 sampling has been a standard in the industry for a very long time. Nevertheless, more is better.
I would love to see a side-by-side shootout comparing all of the features.
Four channels is nice, it's why I bought the Rigol but bandwidth is also nice. Given both models available at the time, I'm not sure which I would have chosen.
I'm not sure I won't just order the Siglent for giggles and compare them myself. Not that I'm qualified...
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#49 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 03 May, 2017 22:46
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There's a thread over in Test Equipment that might be worth reading. Apparently, the firmware might not be 'oopsie' free.
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#50 Reply
Posted by
radcom123
on 04 May, 2017 14:21
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I've ordered the DS1054Z and will be getting it tomorrow all thing being well
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#51 Reply
Posted by
stj
on 04 May, 2017 17:12
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is that the supplier that gives you a free DMM with every order over £200?
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#52 Reply
Posted by
ebclr
on 05 May, 2017 04:02
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#53 Reply
Posted by
radcom123
on 10 May, 2017 16:04
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I did get it on Friday and its fantastic it works a treat (just need to learn how to use it properly now). Ordering it was great, ordered it on Thursday morning got it Friday morning as expected, and the folks at rigol-uk.co.uk were nice and very helpful when I phoned them to ask a few questions.
Thank you to everyone who replied with advice and suggestions it helped a lot.
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radcom123
Thanks for sharing your purchase journey. After a few months of playing with your new toy, are you still happy? I am so close to giving in to temptation. I know it sounds bad, but my only small reservation, is that it has been stuck at nearly £400 forever. inc vat in UK Other tech has been depreciating in price, as the new stuff has superseded it, but this sucker is digging its heels in hard. I just feel after a few years that sods will kick in, and I will go for it, and I will soon be holding what is a still a nice piece if kit, but not the bad boy deal with all the bells, that it once was...
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#55 Reply
Posted by
bd139
on 21 Aug, 2017 20:11
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The price has actually just gone up from £348 to £369. That's what happens when you hang around
Another Rigol-uk.co.uk satisfied customer here. Bought a DS1054Z and a DG1022Z in separate transactions a few weeks back. Very happy with purchase and service. They send via DPD next day so you can stalk the delivery driver all day when you get an SMS message in the morning
4 channels has worked out pretty nicely. I've used all 4 a couple of times. Zero complaints.
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#56 Reply
Posted by
majki
on 27 Dec, 2017 22:41
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Current offer from
www.rigolna.com:
All 1000Z Series Oscilloscopes now come with a free bundle of options. Serial decode, deep memory, record mode, and advanced triggering options are all free for a limited time. This provides an additional value of $250 on any of RIGOL's popular 1000Z Series oscilloscopes. Additionally, the DS1054Z now has a reduced price of just $349.
Valid Through 3/31/18
So 367$ with shipping for the scope and serial decode, deep memory, record mode, and advanced triggering options is fine. (only in USA)
The same offer (free options) is valid also for Europe (
www.rigol.eu), but you need to put it into the RFQ cart first to see the offer and the price is a bit higher: €421.26 including VAT and shipping.
Batronix end year offer is €379 including VAT and free shipping within EU but they do not mention the free options.
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#57 Reply
Posted by
bd139
on 27 Dec, 2017 22:44
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All the options are free
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#58 Reply
Posted by
danadak
on 27 Dec, 2017 23:40
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#59 Reply
Posted by
majki
on 29 Dec, 2017 21:41
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Batronix will also include the free options bundle, but only if you order after December 31st.
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#60 Reply
Posted by
flowbee64
on 29 Dec, 2017 21:52
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I picked one up a few months ago from the local Big Box tech store. I recently ...er, "upgraded" it to an 1104z.
It an amazing scope for the money - especially when it's
your money. . I'm so happy with Rigol leaving it "open" that I'm going to throw a bunch more money at them soon.
I'm constantly amazed how cheap stuff is today compared to 20 years ago.
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#61 Reply
Posted by
BravoV
on 30 Dec, 2017 02:57
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I'm constantly amazed how cheap stuff is today compared to 20 years ago.
Yep, 20 years ago, an electronic hobbyist buying a brand "new oscilloscope" even its the lowest end model was rarely happened, unless he had a rich-bone.
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#62 Reply
Posted by
james_s
on 04 Jan, 2018 01:45
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Yeah I remember lusting after oscilloscopes when I was a kid but even the cheap ones were far out of my reach. Eventually I managed to score an ancient Tek 531A at a garage sale for $40 which is probably $100+ in today's money. My current TDS78C originally cost almost $40k, it's better spec-wise than the Rigol but not 100 times better. It's crazy how cheap everything is now, of course because of that you can't earn much money making stuff anymore.
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#63 Reply
Posted by
blaze1024
on 16 Jan, 2018 16:38
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I'm constantly amazed how cheap stuff is today compared to 20 years ago.
VNA's seem to be an exception. You can buy hobbyist VNA like the MINIVNA but they are really a compromise.
Even used VNA's aren't cheap, I got lucky and managed to pick up a near mint condition HP8953C with an S-parameter box and a full set of HP N Calibration standards along with 10 HP N attenuators 2 each 3db 6db 10db 20db and 30db oh and I forgot a set of HP APC high precision calibration/verification standards with the HP dial indicator depth gauge all in a very nice Pelican case that had been custom fitted with pink anti-static foam. He even threw in another pelican case full of Agilent /HP APC and N connector adapters.
The kid had been trying to sell this stuff for over a year at local ham swaps with no takers, ham radio nowadays is really nothing like it used to be, Its deteriorated into nothing more than glorified CB. Most hams nowadays can't even use a DVM and just don't know what or how to use that type of gear.
Heck I heard a ham on a local repeater about a month ago ask what a VFO was he was reading an article that mentioned one and he didn't know what it was and he was a newly minted extra
But hey throw out a cheap Chinese antenna analyzer and they will fall over themselves trying to buy it.
Anyhow, I ended up trading a DJ phantom 3 drone for it that at most was worth probably $500, I told him that the equipment I was getting was worth much more but he didn't care he was just happy it was going to someone who could use it.
The Calibration standards alone where worth twice what the drone was worth. The kid had inherited it from his dad and had no idea what to do with it. I knew who his dad was and know that he used to own an HP certified calibration and repair facility. This was his personal VNA that he had custom built from hand selected components. HE spent years cherry-picking parts out of donor boxes to build it. Even the S-parameter box is built from hand selected parts.
It's in absloutly mint shape and was quite the find.
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#64 Reply
Posted by
blaze1024
on 16 Jan, 2018 17:02
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On a separate note. I have both the Rigol 1054z and the Siglent 1202x-e in my cart over at Amazon. Been trying to figure out which one I am going to buy. I like the 200Mhz and the increased color depth of the Siglent but I really do like the 4 channels and logic decoding of the Rigol not to mention what seems like more polished software.
It's a tough choice. I'm kinda waiting around to see if I can get that discount coupon for EEVBlog members. I think that might be enough to push me over the edge for the Rigol. It will give me enough bargaining power to keep me out of the dog house when the CFO (MY wife)
finds out that I bought more test gear.
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#65 Reply
Posted by
tautech
on 16 Jan, 2018 18:42
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On a separate note. I have both the Rigol 1054z and the Siglent 1202x-e in my cart over at Amazon. Been trying to figure out which one I am going to buy. I like the 200Mhz and the increased color depth of the Siglent but I really do like the 4 channels and logic decoding of the Rigol not to mention what seems like more polished software.
It's a tough choice. I'm kinda waiting around to see if I can get that discount coupon for EEVBlog members. I think that might be enough to push me over the edge for the Rigol. It will give me enough bargaining power to keep me out of the dog house when the CFO (MY wife) finds out that I bought more test gear.
Have a good look at the new 4ch X-E first.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/There's a discount thread to get Siglent equipment from Saelig, ask for the code there.
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#66 Reply
Posted by
blaze1024
on 17 Jan, 2018 01:35
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#67 Reply
Posted by
tautech
on 17 Jan, 2018 01:46
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#68 Reply
Posted by
Sudochop
on 24 Jan, 2018 01:43
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On a separate note. I have both the Rigol 1054z and the Siglent 1202x-e in my cart over at Amazon. Been trying to figure out which one I am going to buy. I like the 200Mhz and the increased color depth of the Siglent but I really do like the 4 channels and logic decoding of the Rigol not to mention what seems like more polished software.
It's a tough choice. I'm kinda waiting around to see if I can get that discount coupon for EEVBlog members. I think that might be enough to push me over the edge for the Rigol. It will give me enough bargaining power to keep me out of the dog house when the CFO (MY wife) finds out that I bought more test gear.
I'm in the
EXACT same situation. I've had both in my cart for over a week and I'm completely torn! Have you come to a decision yet?
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#69 Reply
Posted by
rhb
on 24 Jan, 2018 03:06
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A lot have people have bought the Rigol and hacked the license key. However, there is very little evidence that the "hacked" scope actually has the BW.
I bought an NOS (new, old stock) Instek GDS-2072E from Amazon for $222 + tax when they were dumping old inventory which is around 150 MHz out of the box, no "hack", even though factory spec is 70 MHz. I am very skeptical that a "hacked" 50 MHz Rigol actually has 100 MHz BW. The only way to be sure is to feed it a fast rise time pulse such as Leo Bodnar's 40 pS pulse generator. My 200 MHz MSO-2204EA comes in at 204 MHz with a better step response.
Yes, R&S, Keysight & Tektronix sell software crippled scopes to compete with Chinese prices. But that does not imply that Chinese low end kit meets the high end specs in the same product line. At the bottom price tier, test and label to spec makes a lot of sense. High sped scope front ends are *very* fiddly.
Also , no lab will calibrate a hacked DS1054Z as a DS1104Z. So unless you invest in your own cal gear, you have no idea what you have.
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#70 Reply
Posted by
BravoV
on 24 Jan, 2018 03:09
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A lot have people have bought the Rigol and hacked the license key. However, there is very little evidence that the "hacked" scope actually has the BW.
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#71 Reply
Posted by
xrunner
on 24 Jan, 2018 03:21
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A lot have people have bought the Rigol and hacked the license key. However, there is very little evidence that the "hacked" scope actually has the BW.
Incorrect. I have personally measured the hacked bandwidth with my own instruments and found it to have been indeed increased. The evidence is in my post history - not to mention all the other members who have verified this.
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#72 Reply
Posted by
Sudochop
on 24 Jan, 2018 03:24
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A lot have people have bought the Rigol and hacked the license key. However, there is very little evidence that the "hacked" scope actually has the BW.
I'm very confused by this as the hack is simply a generated license key. You'd be suggesting they're scamming non-hacked licensed customers as well, no?
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#73 Reply
Posted by
bd139
on 24 Jan, 2018 07:37
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I tested my hacked one with a pulse generator and it came back st around 122MHz so that’s clearly a load of bollocks.
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#74 Reply
Posted by
borjam
on 24 Jan, 2018 09:03
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The problem with Siglent is a surreal warranty policy. What is still worse, they they haven’t recalled a defective series of the SDS1202X-E from the sales channel.
So, I’m afraid it’s not an alternative unless they change their ways a lot. Sending a diy kit of capacitors to correct a design / manufacturing flaw is not acceptable.
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#75 Reply
Posted by
BravoV
on 24 Jan, 2018 09:24
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<Provocateur Mode : ON>
Think again, as DS1054Z is released quite long enough with abundant users especially here in this forum, once those factory warranties are expiring one by one, for sure problems caused by aging of this scope will be popping out, and then these mass owners will be starting to whine/cry/curse .... and the most important part also are to discuss/share/deliver troubleshooting tips & tricks "IF" its repairable by the owner them self.
Just look at the gigantic DS1054Z thread's post counts and views, and other tons of scattered DS1054Z related threads in this forum, and the wealth of information (good or bad of course) regarding this particular product, isn't this a valuable resources and asset by it self by owning this DS1054Z ?
My 2 x 1/8 watt carbon resistors worth of advise.
<Provocateur Mode : OFF>
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#76 Reply
Posted by
ebastler
on 24 Jan, 2018 10:41
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A lot have people have bought the Rigol and hacked the license key. However, there is very little evidence that the "hacked" scope actually has the BW.
I bought an NOS (new, old stock) Instek GDS-2072E from Amazon [...]
If this makes you feel better about having bought the Instek, you can indulge in any phantasy regarding the Rigol which works for you. But no need to try and spread unjustified uncertainty and doubt to anyone else.
You might have noticed that the GDS-2072E has only two channels? There is little evidence that it can be hacked to four...
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#77 Reply
Posted by
JohnPen
on 25 Jan, 2018 13:43
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For those curious about the B/W of the unlocked DS1054Z the following Vpp levels were checked out with a calibrated signal source. Direct connection to scope with 50 ohm Term.
MHz Vpp mV using Auto cursor in DS1054Z.
10 260
20 260
30 257
40 250
50 242
60 235
70 226
80 218
90 208
100 200
110 193
120 186
130 180
135 177
140 175
150 170
200 146
250 110
300 80
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#78 Reply
Posted by
bd139
on 25 Jan, 2018 14:26
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So 3dB bandwidth is about 125MHz. Not bad.
Incidentally I'm selling mine if anyone in the UK wants one. (I won't ship outside UK so don't ask)
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#79 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 25 Jan, 2018 14:54
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A lot have people have bought the Rigol and hacked the license key. However, there is very little evidence that the "hacked" scope actually has the BW.
I'm very confused by this as the hack is simply a generated license key. You'd be suggesting they're scamming non-hacked licensed customers as well, no?
In the first place, it isn't a hack at all. It is simply entering a license key that unlocks features built into the scope. For the truly paranoid, the process is reversible.
You can buy the DS1054 as a 50 MHz scope or the DS1104 as a 100 MHz scope. The only difference is the badging and the features that have been unlocked. Dave has done a video where he shows the two bandwidth filter capacitors and discussed how the appropriate value is used. Literally thousands of people have unlocked the scope by simply having the firmware move the 3 dB point on the input filter.
It is PROVEN that the bandwidth feature exists and that it works. There is no question about it, it's a fact.
It makes all the sense in the world for Rigol to make one hardware set with various features. There is no cost difference to them whether they sell a DS1054 or a DS1104. They could have left the 100 MHz filter capacitor unpopulated, but they didn't.
With the DS1054Z, Rigol owns the entry level scope market. Nobody comes close in features vs price.
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[Amateur radio has] deteriorated into nothing more than glorified CB. Most hams nowadays can't even use a DVM and just don't know what or how to use that type of gear.
Ouch. I'm a no-code Tech, got licensed at 12 years old -- I'm 37 now -- and never expected to get into electronics as I have recently. But I'm not sure how prevalent really low-level electronics knowledge was even among the crusty old guys I met when I was first getting into the hobby. Lots of knowledge about RF propagation and amplifiers and whatnot -- but from an arms length I think the rise of SDR has brought back interest in circuit building that mostly faded after the days of crystal sets in favor of off-the-shelf iCom/Kenwood/Yaesu (and, ugh, ok, Alinco and Realistic) gear. That's part of why I'm here....
With the DS1054Z, Rigol owns the entry level scope market. Nobody comes close in features vs price.
I have spent a lot of time wringing my hands about this and I reached the same conclusion -- either the DS1054Z (or the step up with the logic analyzer port, although Dave's review recommended getting a USB analyzer instead) or else the new 200 MHz Siglent -- but while still relatively affordable, it's twice the price.
And Keysight has now set the price of a refurbed & warrantied (but not calibrated, heh) 1024A at $750 so there's that to consider, depending on what qualifies as within "entry level" price range.
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#81 Reply
Posted by
zvonex66x
on 25 Jan, 2018 16:07
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Hi all...
I have rigol ds1054z....
Hack for 100mhz working with old and with new firmware.
I think that is best solution for this prize..
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#82 Reply
Posted by
james_s
on 25 Jan, 2018 18:28
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Another thing to consider, the Rigols are so cheap for what they can do that they seem to retain value well, if you take good care of it you can likely sell it for a sizable percentage of the original purchase price should you decide at some point to upgrade.
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So what did you wind up buying? I was going to buy the Rigol, but now I’m leaning toward the Signet.
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Well, I got a little carried away and picked up a very well looked after LeCroy LT374M instead.
I decided of the hobbyist scopes I preferred the new 4ch 200MHz Siglent, but then found the LeCroy at around the same price. I have the space for it so why not...?
Plus the Siglent -- being newly released -- is going to be around for a while, and I suspect Rigol will be answering back with something new after their current aggressive promotions expire. Which may drive the price of the Siglent down.
And as I get back into all of this I'm reminded that for radio work I probably should be focusing on one of the "affordable" spectrum analyzers first. (And according to Dave's teardown the Siglent is the clear winner there.)
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Well, I got a little carried away and picked up a very well looked after LeCroy LT374M instead.
I decided of the hobbyist scopes I preferred the new 4ch 200MHz Siglent, but then found the LeCroy at around the same price. I have the space for it so why not...?
Plus the Siglent -- being newly released -- is going to be around for a while, and I suspect Rigol will be answering back with something new after their current aggressive promotions expire. Which may drive the price of the Siglent down.
And as I get back into all of this I'm reminded that for radio work I probably should be focusing on one of the "affordable" spectrum analyzers first. (And according to Dave's teardown the Siglent is the clear winner there.)
I purchased the Rigol. Sould be here in a few days. I looked at the Siglent but I just don't think it's as good of a value as the Rigol.
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I am thinking of buying a scope like this. But I am unsure if it is still, STILL the best scope to get. Now that Siglent have made their own cheapo scopes with double the bandwidth, I am totally lost on what to get.
I don't know much about scopes or electronics yet. I use Arduino to build stuff and I've read that it's a good idea to get four channel for this. But dividing 100MHz by 4 channel ... eeh? (IF I use all at once, of course)
The Siglent SDS1202X-E Oscilloscope seems to be an identically good choice. It's interface is better/faster and it has double the BW. But only two channel.
Of course you're going to say: "It all depends on if you need four channel or not." Well, I don't know. Do I? I can only imagining using two channel - and that for testing batteries or whaaaaa.... I just realized I need four channel. Haha! Since I'm playing around with joule thiefs and their efficiency I need both input and output, volt and amps. So...
Is the Rigol still the best 4 channel beginner scope? Is their PC-Software better now?
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#87 Reply
Posted by
james_s
on 09 Apr, 2018 01:16
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You don't divide the 100MHz by 4 channels, all four channels are 100MHz. In many cases you divide the sample rate but that's not the same thing as the bandwidth.
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I guess it is the "practical bandwidth" then?
Anyway, should I get this? Is there still no alternative today?
I am asking this because all threads discussing this are usually a year old.
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#89 Reply
Posted by
james_s
on 09 Apr, 2018 03:06
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You're confusing bandwidth with sample rate. 20 years ago there were 1GHz scopes with sample rates lower than the DS1054Z, how much the sample rate matters depends on what you're doing. In most cases the sort of signals that need a lot of bandwidth are repetitive.
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Ok. I just want to know if it makes sense to buy this one nowadays. It is 4 years old and judging by what I heard about Rigol, there should be coming some new stuff in the near future, is that right?
Also, again, is it still the best 4 channel scope in this price range or not? Any Competition?
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#91 Reply
Posted by
agehall
on 09 Apr, 2018 06:48
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There will always be new stuff just around the corner but if you are going to wait for that, you'll never buy anything. Unless something has been announced with a set availability date, it is not really all that relevant.
The Rigol 1054Z is still the best option for a home gamer as you can buy the cheapest version and hack it to get all the features. It is a great scope and will last you a long time. The main reason the threads discussing it are old is that it's been out for a while and the reason there are no current threads recommending any other beginners scopes clearly indicates that it is still your best bet. If there was a better scope around, you can be sure that would be discussed to death in here...
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Since there seem to be around 4 to 5 years between releases, I don't think that "There will always be new stuff just around the corner" and that "if you are going to wait for that, you'll never buy anything." would be applicable.
I assume I can read your comment as: "There has been no information about upcoming releases and I don't know the usual delay between releases."
It's good to have confirmation sometimes. Especially if it's a big investment/decision for the next years - that could turn out to be a mistake in half a year when Rigol releases a new scope with the same price and double all the specs or whatever...
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#93 Reply
Posted by
agehall
on 09 Apr, 2018 07:26
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Since there seem to be around 4 to 5 years between releases, I don't think that "There will always be new stuff just around the corner" and that "if you are going to wait for that, you'll never buy anything." would be applicable.
Well, there are new scopes released several times a year. They have all been deemed inferior to the 1054z for home use. Rigol pretty much owns this market unless you want to spend a lot more money to get something that is actually better.
I assume I can read your comment as: "There has been no information about upcoming releases and I don't know the usual delay between releases."
No. I bought my 1054z a few years back and I have not looked at scopes since (more than what is mentioned in reviews/videos here) so I have no clue what Rigol is up to. Bur nor do I care as the 1054z will be my bench scope until it breaks. It does everything I've ever wanted a scope for and then some...
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#94 Reply
Posted by
tautech
on 09 Apr, 2018 11:46
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Since there seem to be around 4 to 5 years between releases, I don't think that "There will always be new stuff just around the corner" and that "if you are going to wait for that, you'll never buy anything." would be applicable.
Well, there are new scopes released several times a year. They have all been deemed inferior to the 1054z for home use. Rigol pretty much owns this market unless you want to spend a lot more money to get something that is actually better.
This ^ needs challenging.
The SDS1104X-E will run rings around 1054z on many fronts but it is more expensive. Price is the only 'feature' 1054z has now.
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#95 Reply
Posted by
bd139
on 09 Apr, 2018 12:19
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Only three reasons really:
1. Price
2. Ability to hack it to 100MHz therefore adding value.
3. 4 channels, albeit limited.
If I was going to buy a new scope now I'd buy a Keysight DSOX1102G though. Works out about 30% more expensive than buying a DS1054Z and a DG1022Z and cover the same use cases BUT it allows you to use it as a very damn useful VNA up to 20MHz which is pretty important for what I'm working on at the moment.
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#96 Reply
Posted by
VEGETA
on 09 Apr, 2018 12:32
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Only three reasons really:
1. Price
2. Ability to hack it to 100MHz therefore adding value.
3. 4 channels, albeit limited.
If I was going to buy a new scope now I'd buy a Keysight DSOX1102G though. Works out about 30% more expensive than buying a DS1054Z and a DG1022Z and cover the same use cases BUT it allows you to use it as a very damn useful VNA up to 20MHz which is pretty important for what I'm working on at the moment.
Yes, you are correct. DZ1054 gets these features perfectly and thus it is successful. I am in Jordan, and this 350$ scope would cost around 500$ including shipping and probably customs. So it is not that much cheap here.
However, I don't think we have something like 200$ digital scope in the market so this is gonna be the best choice overall. Right now I got the 21$ scope from banggood which is kinda ok at the moment. My channel is still not famous.
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#97 Reply
Posted by
bd139
on 09 Apr, 2018 12:47
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That might happen. The features are moving out of ASIC territory now which means it's starting to be feasible to build at volume for low cost.
I actually sold my DS1054Z and use a Tek 465 which I paid equiv about $40 for and you know what, this is good enough for what I need.
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#98 Reply
Posted by
tautech
on 09 Apr, 2018 15:17
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Only three reasons really:
1. Price
2. Ability to hack it to 100MHz therefore adding value.
3. 4 channels, albeit limited.
If I was going to buy a new scope now I'd buy a Keysight DSOX1102G though. Works out about 30% more expensive than buying a DS1054Z and a DG1022Z and cover the same use cases BUT it allows you to use it as a very damn useful VNA up to 20MHz which is pretty important for what I'm working on at the moment.
Then you'd be limited to the max frequency of the internal AWG whereas using a standalone AWG allows for FRA at much higher frequencies.
Did you miss the SDS1004X-E's can do this too ?
Real simple example:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1435854/#msg1435854
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#99 Reply
Posted by
bd139
on 09 Apr, 2018 15:36
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Aware of that but it's not made by Keysight. I can drive down 10 miles down to Winnersh and drop kick the thing through the office window if I'm not happy with it. Can't do that with Siglent
I only care about up to 10MHz or so. After that I need a proper VNA.
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#100 Reply
Posted by
rstofer
on 09 Apr, 2018 15:58
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Ok. I just want to know if it makes sense to buy this one nowadays. It is 4 years old and judging by what I heard about Rigol, there should be coming some new stuff in the near future, is that right?
Also, again, is it still the best 4 channel scope in this price range or not? Any Competition?
The new Siglent SDS1104X-E is reasonably competitive but it's $150 more money for a 4 channel 100 MHz scope (assuming DS1054Z is unlocked).
Whether the improved UI and features of the Siglent are worth that much (43%) is up to the buyer.
The real interest, for me, is with the 200 MHz variant, the DSD1204X-E but it's more than twice as much.
In the $350 price range, I'm not aware of any 100 MHz 4 channel scopes other than the DS1054Z. I will be corrected, I suppose, but, at the moment, I'm not aware of one.
There is, of course, the debate regarding the necessity of 4 channels. That changes the discussion because there are a number of two channel scopes in the $350 price range. Comparing an inexpensive 2 channel scope against an inexpensive 4 channel scope is kind of pointless. Either you want/need 4 channels or you don't.
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I'm the one that posted the original question and it was not over a year ago, more like 5-6 months.
I purchased the DS1054Z and am very pleased with it. Been using it in my classroom. As an instructor the only feature I wish it had was video out (HDMI or VGA) so I could display what's on the scope screen on the 65" HD display in my classroom.
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#102 Reply
Posted by
ebastler
on 09 Apr, 2018 18:54
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#103 Reply
Posted by
shpxnvz
on 09 Apr, 2018 20:00
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Been using it in my classroom. As an instructor the only feature I wish it had was video out (HDMI or VGA) so I could display what's on the scope screen on the 65" HD display in my classroom.
Couldn't you use the scope control PC software to do this just putting the PC display on the monitor? Assuming the software works ok of course.
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I'm the one that posted the original question
Err, no, you are not. Unless you have created another account in the meantime...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/is-the-rigol-ds1054z-still-the-best-entry-level-digital-scope-for-the-price/
But thanks for the feedback on the DS1054Z. And I agree, I would buy one again today if I wanted to spend the same amount of money. And I don't feel the need to replace mine with something more expensive. I use it for various hobby projects, mostly digital stuff.
My bad. After reading your post, (thank you) I asked the same question in December/January time frame. I thought this was my post, oops.
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#105 Reply
Posted by
tautech
on 09 Apr, 2018 21:56
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Been using it in my classroom. As an instructor the only feature I wish it had was video out (HDMI or VGA) so I could display what's on the scope screen on the 65" HD display in my classroom.
Couldn't you use the scope control PC software to do this just putting the PC display on the monitor? Assuming the software works ok of course.
Welcome to the forum.
That's where the new 4ch X-E's are pretty useful as you can do that with the inbuilt Webserver and either a wired LAN or WiFi connection.
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Well... pricing is really different here, in german internet, apparently.
I could get the Riglol DS1054Z for 400-404€ including shipping (free shipping with most sellers anyway) And the Siglent SDS1104X-E costs 510€ including, again, free shipping. These include taxes
The Siglent seems like the better choice. More responsive UI, probably actually useful PC software, color grading, better coloring choice for the four channel (green and blue instead of blue and cyan...)
I just need to find a vendor that accepts installments for the siglent. Had no luck trying to find one for the SDS1202X-E. Found several for the Rigol.
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#107 Reply
Posted by
VEGETA
on 12 Apr, 2018 10:42
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Well... pricing is really different here, in german internet, apparently.
I could get the Riglol DS1054Z for 400-404€ including shipping (free shipping with most sellers anyway) And the Siglent SDS1104X-E costs 510€ including, again, free shipping. These include taxes
The Siglent seems like the better choice. More responsive UI, probably actually useful PC software, color grading, better coloring choice for the four channel (green and blue instead of blue and cyan...)
I just need to find a vendor that accepts installments for the siglent. Had no luck trying to find one for the SDS1202X-E. Found several for the Rigol.
I live in Jordan, so it will cost me a lot to get it which is a big problem! perhaps 500$!
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Wait, you mean 500$ shipping? What IS Jordan and where does he live - that you, living inside him, have to pay inscrutable amounts for shipping?!
Well, It does make sense when the mailman guy dude needs to go through a shrinking device first, then use a small submarine to get to where-ever you live inside Jordan.
How much is the rent? Wait... does Jordan know you live inside him? (Because if not, I can blackmail you to get me a scope: I WOULD blackmail ppl who live inside other ppl! But I don't need a tiny scope... hm. Get me a normal sized one and just ... choose a bigger entrance or something. Then send it to me. Cleaned.)
EDIT: eBastler, you just want me to delete my posts because I owned you hardcore!
But as I already said in the future, we should stop. (Nothing makes sense if you haven't read the deleted posts, third guy.) This stays because I actually want to know who Jordan is and blackmailing impossible entities is no felony.
Edit... Oooh... it is THE Jordan. I thought it was an Isle or something. Why are the shipping costs so high on mainland? Is it because it is dangerous there?