Author Topic: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday  (Read 8040 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« on: October 01, 2018, 09:29:14 pm »
Yes, Mailbag Monday is back!
Weekly mailbag videos to come.
Perhaps the worst schematic ever seen?

SPOILERS:
Only two items for today's Mailbag, and I had a lot to say on each.
The WIHA SpeedE Electric Screwdriver
https://www.wiha.com/en-int/produkte/electro/wiha-speede.html

16:10 Will the HaasoScope 4CH 60MHz 200MS/s change Dave's mind on USB oscilloscopes:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/andy-haas/haasoscope
https://github.com/drandyhaas/Haasoscope/

 
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Offline sibeen

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2018, 09:42:41 pm »
$500 for a glorified screwdriver. Tell him he's dreaming.
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2018, 09:53:07 pm »
And I should have put a link in.

 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2018, 09:53:41 pm »
My two cents on Mailbag Monday:

I do like to see a regular mailbag segment return more often.  I have traditionally found them interesting to see what goodies you've been sent.  I don't mind if they are shorter or a longer 30-45 minutes or even an hour per video.

What I have found, though, is that over time you have tended to increasingly go into far more depth on each item, on average.  For this episode, for example, rather than go on for more than 15 minutes about the screwdriver, I would prefer to have seen you open more mailbag items and save more in-depth teardowns or first looks / reviews for a separate video.  For this episode, you could easily have opened three or four packages and explored what was inside in the time it took you to go on for 15 minutes about the silly screwdriver.

My preference would be for items that take are going to take more than about 5 minutes to be split into a separate video.  You could easily combine several teardowns or more in depth looks if they aren't extensive enough to warrant a separate video.

For a mailbag episode the length of today's video I don't see why you couldn't have opened more like 10 items.  I think the screwdriver tryout should be its own video.  Ditto for the tangent about the crazy schematic of the Hassoscope and trying it out.  Why are you going into all the detail of setting up the unit and testing it out, looking at the project itself and the schematic during a mailbag episode?  i would think that deserves a separate video for several reasons.  For example, I think separate videos would make them easier to refer to later and doesn't clog up the mailbag episode and may be of interest to people who didn't watch that particular mailbag episode. 

I have a feeling that many people end up fast forwarding some of those things and even though they might be interested in some of the more in-depth stuff, may never go back and watch some of those bits.  I know I have done that.  A separate video would make it much easier to pick and choose those things to go back and watch in more depth when you're interested in a certain item rather than having to go back and find the mailbag episode.

I would think a typical mailbag item should be 3-5 minutes per item.  If a "two minute teardown" isn't appropriate, save the teardown for another video and get on with more of everyone's favorite segment, MAILBAG!  :)
 
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Offline jadew

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2018, 10:23:22 pm »
Whenever I see a project that's advertised as opensource, my expectations immediately drop to 10% or less of what they'd be for a commercial product.

Edit:
Also, as a side note, I've read once that almost all articles that pose a question in the title, will end up by answering that question with a "No".

16:10 Will the HaasoScope 4CH 60MHz 200MS/s change Dave's mind on USB oscilloscopes:
- No.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 10:26:40 pm by jadew »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2018, 10:25:10 pm »
My two cents on Mailbag Monday:

I do like to see a regular mailbag segment return more often.  I have traditionally found them interesting to see what goodies you've been sent.  I don't mind if they are shorter or a longer 30-45 minutes or even an hour per video.

What I have found, though, is that over time you have tended to increasingly go into far more depth on each item, on average.  For this episode, for example, rather than go on for more than 15 minutes about the screwdriver, I would prefer to have seen you open more mailbag items and save more in-depth teardowns or first looks / reviews for a separate video.  For this episode, you could easily have opened three or four packages and explored what was inside in the time it took you to go on for 15 minutes about the silly screwdriver.

My preference would be for items that take are going to take more than about 5 minutes to be split into a separate video.  You could easily combine several teardowns or more in depth looks if they aren't extensive enough to warrant a separate video.

For a mailbag episode the length of today's video I don't see why you couldn't have opened more like 10 items.  I think the screwdriver tryout should be its own video.  Ditto for the tangent about the crazy schematic of the Hassoscope and trying it out.  Why are you going into all the detail of setting up the unit and testing it out, looking at the project itself and the schematic during a mailbag episode?  i would think that deserves a separate video for several reasons.  For example, I think separate videos would make them easier to refer to later and doesn't clog up the mailbag episode and may be of interest to people who didn't watch that particular mailbag episode. 

I have a feeling that many people end up fast forwarding some of those things and even though they might be interested in some of the more in-depth stuff, may never go back and watch some of those bits.  I know I have done that.  A separate video would make it much easier to pick and choose those things to go back and watch in more depth when you're interested in a certain item rather than having to go back and find the mailbag episode.

I would think a typical mailbag item should be 3-5 minutes per item.  If a "two minute teardown" isn't appropriate, save the teardown for another video and get on with more of everyone's favorite segment, MAILBAG!  :)
I actually like the Mailbag for the tangents. I've learnt so much through the variety offered and Dave pointing out various things. Just opening the packages is of little interest to me.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2018, 10:35:07 pm »
I actually like the Mailbag for the tangents. I've learnt so much through the variety offered and Dave pointing out various things. Just opening the packages is of little interest to me.

Ahh, but that's not what I'm saying.  I like the tangents too, but I think they should more often be in a Tuesday Teardown video or videos.  15-30 minutes for each mailbag item seems more like something that should have its own video or a segment of a video like "Let's try screwdrivers!" or "Schematic Shortcomings" or "Project Pitfalls"  or whatever, where a few items should be grouped logically or have their own separate video, like one on the various aspects of the Hassoscope project.

Yes, yes, I know... I should hush up or start my own channel.  :)
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2018, 10:52:30 pm »
Ahh, but that's not what I'm saying.  I like the tangents too, but I think they should more often be in a Tuesday Teardown video or videos.  15-30 minutes for each mailbag item seems more like something that should have its own video or a segment of a video like "Let's try screwdrivers!" or "Schematic Shortcomings" or "Project Pitfalls"  or whatever, where a few items should be grouped logically or have their own separate video, like one on the various aspects of the Hassoscope project.

Yes, yes, I know... I should hush up or start my own channel.  :)
I understand you want to see them separate, but I don't think I agree. It'd probably mostly be frustrating, as you'd have to look up the matching part in a different video.
 

Online ogden

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2018, 11:17:23 pm »
I would think a typical mailbag item should be 3-5 minutes per item.  If a "two minute teardown" isn't appropriate, save the teardown for another video and get on with more of everyone's favorite segment, MAILBAG!  :)

Right 100%. This was product review, not mailbag video. Good idea to limit 5 minutes per item max (with countdown timer)  :)

Most likely poll is needed so we don't have to waste internet ink by typing "yes I agree" forum posts.

 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2018, 11:22:28 pm »
Right 100%. This was product review, not mailbag video. Good idea to limit 5 minutes per item max (with countdown timer)  :)

Most likely poll is needed so we don't have to waste internet ink by typing "yes I agree" forum posts.
A poll should be fine, but people should remember that the EEVblog isn't a democracy.
 

Online ogden

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2018, 11:27:52 pm »
A poll should be fine, but people should remember that the EEVblog isn't a democracy.

Right. It's capitalism :D Anyway manufacturer shall get feedback from potential customers about desired qualities of product. So everything is fine
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2018, 11:30:19 pm »
Right. It's capitalism :D Anyway manufacturer shall get feedback from potential customers about desired qualities of product. So everything is fine
If Dave went for the popular vote, he'd be running The King of Random's channel by now. ;D
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 11:53:17 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2018, 11:50:36 pm »
The price for that screwdriver is just ridiculous. I imagine the company will be flooding the internet influencers to discover enough suckers to pay those prices.

and the USB oscilloscope.... re:schematic "words cannot express how bad this is...."

What a pile of dingo's kidneys!

Sigh

(Maybe the point is that with all the time saved by using the screwdriver you can afford to buy a decent scope and ignore the USB one... or by buying the USB scope you will have spare money to buy a crazy price screwdriver. Seriously what is this c**p).

« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 12:14:11 am by NivagSwerdna »
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2018, 11:58:48 pm »
LOL, I wonder how it measures up to this 53$ version?
One Tenth The Price

It has the same twist engaging mechanism.
My real question is: Is that German screw driver truly 10x stronger operating and built?
And don't get me going on the 63$ full strength drill ones with variable gear & speed chuck...



« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 12:12:46 am by BrianHG »
__________
BrianHG.
 

Online ogden

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2018, 12:04:59 am »
If Dave went for the popular vote, he'd be running The King of Random's channel by now. ;D

Right. Better run iJustine product review channel instead of old, good EEVBlog mailbox  >:D
 

Online taydin

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2018, 12:15:45 am »
The format of this mailbag video is just fine for me. Yes, it ended up like a review of the screwdriver, but what's wrong with that? Everything that Dave explained about that screwdriver was useful information! For example, if it was just open it up and fool around a little bit for 5 minutes, we might have not seen the detail about how that screwdriver is supposed to work. It isn NOT a tool to unfasten or fasten a screw from beginning to end. It's just a tool that saves you time when the screw is already loose. The unfastening and tightening is intended to be done with a tightness hand feeling of the user. So the concept and idea behind the screwdriver is quite good! But to realize this, it is necessary to look at the tool more closely, which is what Dave did.

Same thing with the USB oscilloscope. I would have hated it if this was just an "open the box", talk about it a little bit, repeat what the manual already says and then do away with it in 5 minutes. I took in and appreciated all of the extra information that was presented, and so should the developer!
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Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2018, 12:23:48 am »
If that were my "scope", I would want to kill you. Poor guy. Surely there are many good things that can be said about it. But no. Not a single one!
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Online ogden

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2018, 12:28:24 am »
The format of this mailbag video is just fine for me. Yes, it ended up like a review of the screwdriver, but what's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with product review video, but then please don't name it "Mailbag". Problem with such "40minutes for just two products per week mailbag" - chances that your package will be shown is close to zero. Better you have your 5 minutes showtime than no show at all - as happened with muArt this week.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 12:30:01 am by ogden »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2018, 12:29:42 am »
If that were my "scope", I would want to kill you. Poor guy. Surely there are many good things that can be said about it. But no. Not a single one!
Dave only gives negative feedback. We even got the t-shirt to prove it.
 
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Online JPortici

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2018, 12:36:36 am »
16:10 Will the HaasoScope 4CH 60MHz 200MS/s change Dave's mind on USB oscilloscopes

I suppose it didn't. Altough i can't blame him, I was always skeptic of this project. At least The hardware has improved, but the software... an USB scope is ultimately as useful as what the software lets you do.

The Picoscope is a VERY useful usb scope. Extended signal analysis capabilities, infinite advanced math channels, decoders etc. There are shotcomings in the triggering and wfm/s that are inhirent to the architecture but i prefer to use the pico instead of a rigol for example.
The CS448 is another example of a VERY useful usb scope.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2018, 01:02:24 am »
If that were my "scope", I would want to kill you. Poor guy. Surely there are many good things that can be said about it. But no. Not a single one!

Dave is not this person's grandfather who will encourage their grandchild no matter how bad a job they did.  The creator set themselves up with a very high standard to meet - and they failed.  Sorry, but that's a simple truth.

Even if we get past the song and dance to get things up and running, such a basic oversight as having the input BNCs too close for several standard probe types is a bad start.  Not having level detection is another fail, but the DC offset issues are just bizarre.  There is no doubt that this product represents an opportunity - but it is just missing some basic functionality, consistency of operation and a display that has enough information to use as a scope.

Their aspiration was to change Dave's mind about USB scopes - but they didn't bridge the gap between operating a regular scope and their product.  I thought Dave was pretty clear - they failed at providing the "change your mind about USB scopes".  What it did do wasn't too bad for what it was - but it was not as utilitarian as a proper scope.

Besides, if Dave were not to criticise a product that didn't pass muster for what it was claimed to be, then we would all get half-arsed products, be told it was wonderful and be expected to smile as we (try to) use it.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2018, 01:12:55 am »
Dave - 42 minutes for this was a bit of a time fail, IMHO - but I think you might already be aware of that.

I, too, wondered about the 1KV rating for the screwdriver.  I would like to see an example of the use case they had in mind - but even so, what if you are unscrewing something that did need that rating ... and then dropped a screw from the tip.   :o

Nevertheless, I saw the way to operate it as an extension of the natural manual screwdriver motion.  Use the handle to twist the screw and when it has loosened enough, the electric motor takes over.  It's a single action by the operator that has two stages - the manual and the powered.
 

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2018, 01:13:45 am »
If that scope guy is smart, he should take this review as the raw, non sugar-coated, unadulterated truth, and fix the issues. After that, he should send the updated hardware for another mailbag. If the hardware works well this time, I'm sure everybody will just forget about all the previous mishaps and maybe recommend it to others as a quite capable poor mans scope.

He shouldn't have expected reassurance and back patting from Dave. That's where the girlfriend or the wife comes in  ;D
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 01:18:47 am by taydin »
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Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2018, 01:16:17 am »
If that scope guy is smart, he should take this review as the raw, non sugar-coated, unadulterated truth, and fix the issues.
Exactly!

Quote
He shouldn't have expected reassurance and back patting from Dave. That's where the girlfriend of the wife comes in  ;D
(or the grandfather)  ;)
 

Online taydin

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2018, 01:21:17 am »
That's where the girlfriend of the wife comes in  ;D

OMG! I just corrected that typo  :D Dont use the wife's girlfriend for reassurance guys  :-DD
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Offline tchicago

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2018, 02:05:34 am »
Python is a garbage. There is absolutely no excuse to write and ship software on Python.
It is a scripting language. Yes, it is okay to write some quick and dirty script to process some data on Python, run it, and then throw the script away.
And no, it is not okay redistribute those scripts for users who are not "experts" in Python scripting.
 
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Offline timgiles

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2018, 02:38:41 am »
LoL ChicagoT - where did you get that from!?  :-DD  Python is used in many large software projects around the world, by a lot of scientists etc...

Seriously though - in terms of the video I thought you gave the items enough time and perhaps this video will end up being an outlier in terms of total run time. The oscilloscope was a bit of a let down but I must stick up for Github. What is not forgivable is instructions that are not correct. I dont think it is unusual to need to install python (or java etc...) and the people looking at purchasing this type of scope will likely know what they are getting in to.

The screwdriver did not seem to be worth the money...
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2018, 02:58:54 am »
Regular mailbags is a good idea, with fewer items. But I don't know if the overpriced screwdriver was worth 15 minutes. This could have been demonstrated in 5 minutes, and then a 3rd mailbag opened.

The scope review was good. I guess lesson learnt: you shouldn't send Dave a product marketed as a competitor to other professional products, but then with hobby level quality.
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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2018, 04:02:43 am »
Where was your full rant mode (displayed with the oscilloscope) when faced with the amount of BS on the Wiha box, the somewhat weird mode of operation (twist then start? Give me a switch!), the slow speed?  I really think you were starstruck by the "German AU$500 screwdriver". If the same "features" were in a Chinese product, I am pretty sure your reaction would be different.

I don't think you were harsh on the oscilloscope review. Schematics are terrible and the BNC spacing is a non-starter. The rant about Github was not quite warranted but the bad instructions and the absence of a precompiled binary is a non-starter for a true product. The interface reminded me of the not-so-great elab080 I still use, but with the difference that this one is a single WinXP executable with no installer, has plenty more features and still works on Windows 10.

The scope review was good. I guess lesson learnt: you shouldn't send Dave a product marketed as a competitor to other professional products, but then with hobby level quality.
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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2018, 04:37:29 am »
That screw driver is a rather special tool made for working on potentially life circuits. So compare this more to an CAT 4 meter.  It's a lot about the electrical insulation and less about motor speed / battery.  I find it nice to have the supposed maximum torque on the bit's. There is positive side of having such a weak motor: one would not that likely slip on the screw head at the low torque.
The extension part might be for torque limiting (e.g. the slip clutch) and this might be a significant part of the price point.
I am still not a big fan of the implementation.

The Panasonic driver is a completely different tool - more suitable to undo the screws on the instrument and similar, but nothing you like on a life circuit. The isolated screw driver is more about working on a fuse panel or similar.

The doctors recommendation is a little odd.  There is a issue with normal screw drivers: if used a lot they put a lot of strain on the wrists and elbows. So they are really not a good idea for frequent use because of poor ergonomics.
 
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Offline mancausoft

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2018, 04:39:23 am »
@EEVblog Do you check if the problem with the video are related with the use of the "usb oscilloscope"?

Maybe son RF stuff/not shilded and so on?

I'm just curious, maybe  it makes sense to invest some time investigating it :)

Online 2N3055

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2018, 04:53:39 am »
That screw driver is a rather special tool made for working on potentially life circuits. So compare this more to an CAT 4 meter.  It's a lot about the electrical insulation and less about motor speed / battery.  I find it nice to have the supposed maximum torque on the bit's. There is positive side of having such a weak motor: one would not that likely slip on the screw head at the low torque.
The extension part might be for torque limiting (e.g. the slip clutch) and this might be a significant part of the price point.
I am still not a big fan of the implementation.

The Panasonic driver is a completely different tool - more suitable to undo the screws on the instrument and similar, but nothing you like on a life circuit. The isolated screw driver is more about working on a fuse panel or similar.

The doctors recommendation is a little odd.  There is a issue with normal screw drivers: if used a lot they put a lot of strain on the wrists and elbows. So they are really not a good idea for frequent use because of poor ergonomics.

You are correct. This is VDE 603 certified product, certified for use on live circuits. And yes, that extension is THE torque limiter (fixed one) named easyTorque. On their full kit you get 5 of them, for different torque settings. All in all it is specialized, good quality product and expensive for that. And probably not something you would want to buy unless you need it.
It is really compact (for a electric screwdriver that has some heft to it) and cool. I would personally like it much more if they made a 100 € version that is not isolated, and a bit faster (it is kinda slow).

As for a scope mini review, I don't think he was rude. That thing is in a proof of concept prototype phase. He actually gave an effort. And, yes, I use python all the time. As a scripting engine. I also used python  few times to grab something quickly from a Picoscope. But I wouldn't have Picoscope if it didn't have functioning compiled application and if it didn't have API for a real development.
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2018, 05:13:10 am »
It seems the Crowdsupply page for the Haasoscope has been updated with Dave's endorsement  :-//
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 05:14:55 am by bitwelder »
 
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Online taydin

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2018, 05:23:41 am »
Weird really. If the project owner did that, he probably did it to give Dave's review a positive spin  :) But why? I'm sure it will come out eventually.
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Online NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2018, 05:28:29 am »
IDK what self-respecting person would release that scope as it is. I get it, he used eagle to make it, and eagle makes all the effort to create garbage from your design. And we saw people with OCD releasing garbage schematics, but it doesn't stop there. Here we have a 250MSPS "scope" built on a 4 layer board, with wimpy 0.2mm stracks for GND and power. Powering and FPGA and high speed ADCs. He has 1 via for the FPGA ground connection on the bottom. It is already version 9, and it has so many fundamental problems...
 
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Online taydin

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2018, 05:40:26 am »
I write firmware to pay the bills, and my experience is that if the source code of a firmware is very disorganized, almost as if it came out of an obfuscator ( ;D ), the resulting firmware's performance is usually also shit. Shitty source code suggests that the writer does not take pride in the work he produces, which eventually reflects on the performance of the end product. Somebody that takes pride in writing code will treat his source code almost like poetry, avoiding duplication, being very meticulous about indentation and white space etc etc.

I think the same can be said about circuit schematics. If the schematic is very disorganized, lacks that certain symmetry and flow, the creator of that schematic also doesn't take pride in the work he is producing. So it probably will reflect on the end product as well.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 05:45:18 am by taydin »
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Offline tsman

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2018, 06:14:14 am »
It seems the Crowdsupply page for the Haasoscope has been updated with Dave's endorsement  :-//
I don't see that. Did they remove it or is there some weird caching going on here?

One question I had is solved though. The mystery photo on that display is their baby with a bottle.

Quote from: Andrew Haas
At the moment it shows the data (+/-64 samples around the trigger) from one of the channels, and at startup has a pic of my baby drinking a bottle (see below) - retro cool, eh?
 

Offline woox2k

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2018, 07:25:30 am »
The "new" mailbag format is fine. Of course i would like to see more items opened but i also would like to see more in-depth videos about these items (teardown/review) I understand  that Dave has limited time and i'm fine seeing short overviews of things rather than waiting for years for teardown that Dave promised but never had the time to deliver (there has been plenty of them over the years)

About the scope... At first i thought Dave was a bit too harsh on the developer but then i recognized myself messing around with "opensource closed source software killers" and immediately understood Dave's point of view. There is way too many opensource hardware/software out there that claim to be perfect/better replacements of commercial ones. Sadly most of the time these products are exactly like Dave showed here. Seemingly made by people who have no idea how people expect these things to work and what are important. Like noone cares if you can send i2c commands to your oscilloscope if you cant even get a decent signal trace on the screen. Considering that i think that harsh reviews are very important to better the future of opensource! People telling Dave to shut up since its open source help noone but they are everywhere.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 07:27:16 am by woox2k »
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2018, 07:28:51 am »
It seems the Crowdsupply page for the Haasoscope has been updated with Dave's endorsement  :-//
I don't see that. Did they remove it or is there some weird caching going on here?
Yep, now it has been removed.
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2018, 07:57:16 am »
he should take this review as the raw, non sugar-coated, unadulterated truth, and fix the issues.
Actually in an apprenticeship you get that from your instructor, unfortunately you might get it unjustified or in the worst case without a constructive conclusion :palm:. But anyway, in the normal case you are supposed to get the reason as well and learn it  :clap:

I am not a fan of superlatives, but well that is Dave´s thing, making videos and explaining stuff to an invisible audience; waking them up from the last boring  :=\ installment they might have seen on youtube  :-DD

So i think the critic toward the schematics is quite what should have been teached: other people are supposed to understand it (it´s the only purpose of such a document, otherwise you could lay it out in mind or copy it from the breadboard, and it also names an author), so it should be drawn with that in mind, avoiding crossings, oriented in a proper way and have readability. I don´t know if all the additional label´s visibility status was saved within the document or got lost, but i think KiCAD does so.

After that, he should send the updated hardware for another mailbag. If the hardware works well this time, I'm sure everybody will just forget about all the previous mishaps and maybe recommend it to others as a quite capable poor mans scope.
Good, constructive advice, i´d say.

The Wiha screwdriver is partially a matter of taste, their isolated driver bit system is the only one with the rating i know of, so they flesh it out in more products. Makes it a double use case item, if one assumes that mechanics wouldn´t mind buying an electric screwdriver cause they can not bang a hammer on the cap (Wiha makes those as well). But be reminded that the usual 1/4" hex bits do not fit in there (tested with a Model 283109), kind of kills it for me.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 08:05:42 am by SparkyFX »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2018, 08:18:04 am »
I would think a typical mailbag item should be 3-5 minutes per item.  If a "two minute teardown" isn't appropriate, save the teardown for another video and get on with more of everyone's favorite segment, MAILBAG!  :)

I tried that, and IIRC people didn't like it.
 

Offline tchicago

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2018, 09:03:44 am »
I would think a typical mailbag item should be 3-5 minutes per item.  If a "two minute teardown" isn't appropriate, save the teardown for another video and get on with more of everyone's favorite segment, MAILBAG!  :)

I tried that, and IIRC people didn't like it.

Don't save for later, as it may never come. I think this is why some people did not like it.

Might be interesting to try to do what's appropriate for the item. As you go through the items, do either 2-minute teardown or the bigger one as time permits. So I guess it will be fine to have something like 2-2-longer_teardown-2-2 or long_teardown-2-long_teardown.

P.S. I agree the screwdriver was pretty weak. Well made, but too slow add any efficiency. In fact, if you have many screws with many different heads to work on, the process of changing the tip will make it slower comparing to just having a handy set of regular screwdrivers.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2018, 09:40:13 am »
I, too, wondered about the 1KV rating for the screwdriver.  I would like to see an example of the use case they had in mind - but even so, what if you are unscrewing something that did need that rating ... and then dropped a screw from the tip.   :o
What about working on EV battery packs?

As for the scope, if it had decent USB bandwidth, it would be a good start to a high speed digitizing system. It's open source, so someone determined can add a FX3 or whatever.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2018, 09:44:33 am »
The format of this mailbag video is just fine for me. Yes, it ended up like a review of the screwdriver, but what's wrong with that? Everything that Dave explained about that screwdriver was useful information! For example, if it was just open it up and fool around a little bit for 5 minutes, we might have not seen the detail about how that screwdriver is supposed to work. It isn NOT a tool to unfasten or fasten a screw from beginning to end. It's just a tool that saves you time when the screw is already loose. The unfastening and tightening is intended to be done with a tightness hand feeling of the user. So the concept and idea behind the screwdriver is quite good! But to realize this, it is necessary to look at the tool more closely, which is what Dave did.

Same thing with the USB oscilloscope. I would have hated it if this was just an "open the box", talk about it a little bit, repeat what the manual already says and then do away with it in 5 minutes. I took in and appreciated all of the extra information that was presented, and so should the developer!

The problem is that I shoot the mailbag as if all the content is going to be in the mailbag. I do get a feel for how much I've waffled on on each item, but I'm not really sure until go do the edit.
And by the time I do the edit and go "gee, that item is a bit long and warrants it's own video", I don't really have the proper intro or summary material for either a shorter Mailbag OR a longer dedicated video, so I likely have to go back and shoot some more commentary or other footage.
So for a shorter "summary" mailbag version to work I have to know at that point what type of video I'm going to do and shoot both versions of the footage. It gets logistically messy.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2018, 09:46:48 am »
If that were my "scope", I would want to kill you. Poor guy. Surely there are many good things that can be said about it. But no. Not a single one!

Err, not correct, I went out of my way to say what it might be good for and that maybe it's a good bandwidth-per-buck.
But please, tell me, what good stuff would you say about it?
 

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2018, 09:49:35 am »
I, too, wondered about the 1KV rating for the screwdriver. 

How am I supposed to test that?
This is a Whia, best in the business, I have zero doubt it's properly rated and certified as a HV screwdriver.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2018, 09:52:49 am »
LoL ChicagoT - where did you get that from!?  :-DD  Python is used in many large software projects around the world, by a lot of scientists etc...
Seriously though - in terms of the video I thought you gave the items enough time and perhaps this video will end up being an outlier in terms of total run time.

Yes, this one happened to be an outlier.
 

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2018, 09:56:07 am »
You are correct. This is VDE 603 certified product, certified for use on live circuits. And yes, that extension is THE torque limiter (fixed one) named easyTorque. On their full kit you get 5 of them, for different torque settings. All in all it is specialized, good quality product and expensive for that. And probably not something you would want to buy unless you need it.

If it's a torque limiter then it must be less than the 0.4Nm the instructions clearly show as being for the main motor electronic torque stop feature. So these must be a less than 0.4Nm which is naff all really. The electronic stop is barely enough for anything serious, so having less than that seems pointless  :-//
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2018, 09:57:32 am »
I would think a typical mailbag item should be 3-5 minutes per item.  If a "two minute teardown" isn't appropriate, save the teardown for another video and get on with more of everyone's favorite segment, MAILBAG!  :)

I tried that, and IIRC people didn't like it.
Don't save for later, as it may never come. I think this is why some people did not like it.

That's the thing, if I don't shoot the video then and there it usually never happens. And as I said previously I'd then have to shoot two versions of the video, one a long detailed one, and one as a short summary for the mailbag.
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2018, 10:26:37 am »
I do like the 2 item mailbag, and typically I think it'll work out well. Sometimes they'll be shorter, sometimes longer. Try it a while and see where it averages.

I was in the soldering live chat checking out that schematic. I think you were very nice about the scope. I could've done a much more negative video! The schematic and board file are both bad. That UI was really awful, random offsets and noise were pretty bad. There is no room for the BNC connectors of actual scope probes. The display is useless(albeit an optional extra). Not recognizing the buttons changing state in the software is a MASSIVE fail. I really can't believe how much money this thing pulled in. I believe he's read the comments and that's why the previous "endorsement" was removed. The schematic needs to be fixed, and so does the board file. The component designators weren't just not on the board, they weren't even in the board FILE. The entire board looked to be autorouted which is a bad idea when you're trying to look at low level signals as well. I think this must be a case of "I have to get this out now or I never will".

The screwdriver seems great for working on live circuits but otherwise useless. An automotive technician would never buy one. You make the HV system safe before you do much of anything. The snap-on cordless drivers are WAY better. Adjustable clutch that also locks when not running so that you can manually torque as needed and reverse you can have the motor run while you torque away yourself. Better ergonomic design as a "gun" with a forward/reverse trigger, higher voltage, longer run time(maybe? couldn't find anything on that), faster. I'm overall neutral on it, would be a total waste for me but a potential lifesaver for someone else.
 

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2018, 10:27:22 am »
That's the thing, if I don't shoot the video then and there it usually never happens. And as I said previously I'd then have to shoot two versions of the video, one a long detailed one, and one as a short summary for the mailbag.

If there are no more than two packages per week sent, then we don't even need this discussion. - New format is OK :) If there are more than few and some packages are going to never be opened in front of the camera - then there's problem.
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2018, 10:37:29 am »

The problem is that I shoot the mailbag as if all the content is going to be in the mailbag. I do get a feel for how much I've waffled on on each item, but I'm not really sure until go do the edit.
And by the time I do the edit and go "gee, that item is a bit long and warrants it's own video", I don't really have the proper intro or summary material for either a shorter Mailbag OR a longer dedicated video, so I likely have to go back and shoot some more commentary or other footage.
So for a shorter "summary" mailbag version to work I have to know at that point what type of video I'm going to do and shoot both versions of the footage. It gets logistically messy.

If you're set to do a Mailbag video why not take it as you've already decided what type of video you are going to do. None of your audience care about how logistically messy it gets for you. They only care if it prevents you from making videos. Surely that is the lot of a professional video blogger.

You can make the videos to suit yourself or you can make it according to the way your audience told you in a poll how they wanted it. But don't ask them and then not do it. Just don't ask.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2018, 11:14:05 am »
I, too, wondered about the 1KV rating for the screwdriver. 

How am I supposed to test that?
This is a Whia, best in the business, I have zero doubt it's properly rated and certified as a HV screwdriver.

My reservation was not about the rating itself ... but for the use case that would warrant it.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2018, 11:25:56 am »
You can make the videos to suit yourself or you can make it according to the way your audience told you in a poll how they wanted it. But don't ask them and then not do it. Just don't ask.

If a poll had said they wanted Dave to shoot videos while skydiving do you think he is obligated to do so?

Getting feedback is an important part of any pursuit - but it is not necessarily going to dictate an action plan.  Influence it, yes, but not dictate it.
 

Offline Quarlo Klobrigney

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2018, 12:05:01 pm »
Your mailbag is/was fine as is. I like it either way.

As far as the WIHA screwdriver, I was excited to see it work...then fail on every count. Ease of operation 0, Functionality 0, Necessity 0, Battery 0, A clean yellow parts surface after 3 months or real use 0, price -4.

As far as the schematic, the user has no clue how to use Eagle. See the post at: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-live-soldering-haasoscope/msg1857213/#msg1857213 After 1 hour, I refuse to spend any more effort to "fix" a garbage drawing. Easier to redo from start.
Bad schematic, so how is the actual electronic design? Garbage as well?
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« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 12:21:00 pm by Quarlo Klobrigney »
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Offline Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2018, 02:31:06 pm »
There were changes in Python v3 that (may) cause v2 scripts to fail. It maybe a tedious work to re-write the code.
Python may be a great tool for developers but the idea of having the end user deal with it is ill.
 

Offline hayatepilot

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2018, 04:27:28 pm »
You are correct. This is VDE 603 certified product, certified for use on live circuits. And yes, that extension is THE torque limiter (fixed one) named easyTorque. On their full kit you get 5 of them, for different torque settings. All in all it is specialized, good quality product and expensive for that. And probably not something you would want to buy unless you need it.

If it's a torque limiter then it must be less than the 0.4Nm the instructions clearly show as being for the main motor electronic torque stop feature. So these must be a less than 0.4Nm which is naff all really. The electronic stop is barely enough for anything serious, so having less than that seems pointless  :-//
The torque limiter is for when the motor has finished and you tighten it by hand. The standard set comes with a 2.8Nm torque limiter.
 

Offline Ferenc

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2018, 05:05:56 pm »
There are no words to describe that schematic.  |O
 

Offline McBryce

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2018, 05:27:26 pm »
That screw driver is a rather special tool made for working on potentially life circuits. So compare this more to an CAT 4 meter.  It's a lot about the electrical insulation and less about motor speed / battery.  I find it nice to have the supposed maximum torque on the bit's. There is positive side of having such a weak motor: one would not that likely slip on the screw head at the low torque.
The extension part might be for torque limiting (e.g. the slip clutch) and this might be a significant part of the price point.
I am still not a big fan of the implementation.

The Panasonic driver is a completely different tool - more suitable to undo the screws on the instrument and similar, but nothing you like on a life circuit. The isolated screw driver is more about working on a fuse panel or similar.

The doctors recommendation is a little odd.  There is a issue with normal screw drivers: if used a lot they put a lot of strain on the wrists and elbows. So they are really not a good idea for frequent use because of poor ergonomics.

If I'm working on live circuitry, the last thing I need is some toy screwdriver to distract me. Safety should be my priority, not speed. And if I want a German brand electric screwdriver I can buy a Bosch IXO for a 10th of the price and get up to 4.5nm in around the same size. Wiha has disappointed on this one.

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Online NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2018, 05:57:08 pm »
There were changes in Python v3 that (may) cause v2 scripts to fail. It maybe a tedious work to re-write the code.
Python may be a great tool for developers but the idea of having the end user deal with it is ill.
You can create an executable from python, which includes all used library, the interpreter and everything. No installation required. It is called py2exe. While I wouldn't recommend using it for high performance applications (although it can be a wrapper for CUDA and such) it is fine for these programs. But the fork in Python 2-3 and the fact that they didnt solve easy installation of both on a system (for example renaming python 3 to anaconda or something) makes it indeed tedious.
 
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Online mrpackethead

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2018, 06:07:37 pm »
Python is a garbage. There is absolutely no excuse to write and ship software on Python.
It is a scripting language. Yes, it is okay to write some quick and dirty script to process some data on Python, run it, and then throw the script away.
And no, it is not okay redistribute those scripts for users who are not "experts" in Python scripting.

Bollocks.  Guess the IEEE doe'snt know whats its talking about.

The IEEE ranked Python as the #1 programming language in 2018 after ranking as the #1 language in 2017 and #3 top programming language in 2016. RedMonk's June 2017 ranking, had Python at #3, which was up one slot from their same ranking two years earlier.
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Online mrpackethead

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2018, 06:13:23 pm »
I did'nt like it at all. I had it playing in the background while i was packing products for shipping.

I dont' need to see you opening boxes.  I can accept that they actually got sent to you.   
I'd rather see a lot more things in much less detail.    If i'm interested in it further i can follow the links to it.
20 minutes with 20 products would be awesome.
 

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Offline McBryce

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2018, 06:33:06 pm »
Python is a garbage. There is absolutely no excuse to write and ship software on Python.
It is a scripting language. Yes, it is okay to write some quick and dirty script to process some data on Python, run it, and then throw the script away.
And no, it is not okay redistribute those scripts for users who are not "experts" in Python scripting.

Bollocks.  Guess the IEEE doe'snt know whats its talking about.

The IEEE ranked Python as the #1 programming language in 2018 after ranking as the #1 language in 2017 and #3 top programming language in 2016. RedMonk's June 2017 ranking, had Python at #3, which was up one slot from their same ranking two years earlier.

Eh, no. The IEEE rated Python as the most POPULAR language. This says nothing about its capabilities or suitability for a particular job, just how often it's being used: https://spectrum.ieee.org/static/ieee-top-programming-languages-2018-methods

McBryce.
 

Offline cj

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2018, 06:44:54 pm »
Just saw a video on youtube (veritasium) on how being bored is good for creativity.
This new mailbag format is excellent for my creativity.

Sorry, just liked the old format.

CJ
 

Offline FloFo

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2018, 07:17:18 pm »
With his VDE-Rating, the Wiha Sscrewdriver is clearly made for Electricians. I guess someone assembling/modifing switchboards all day long may very well enjoy a tool like this, saving his ankles from all the turning ;) Even they most likely don't work in live circuits most of the time, they will be required to use VDE certified tools just in case ...
I guess that's also the reason for the relative low speed, the screws in these terminals only have to be moved a few mm, so no need for high speed. All in all a product taylored to a very specific use, but definitively worth it's money if you work in an enviroment like this ...

Edit: just found on the wiha homepage: 800 screws per charge
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 07:20:55 pm by FloFo »
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2018, 07:22:03 pm »
Recommendation: Maybe spend 3-5 minutes per package on mailbag Monday and here in the post on this forum, offer a vote of which packages we would like to see torn down, and at the end of the week, or even next week, create the 20-40minute video tearing down the 1 or 2 top items in the voted list.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 01:04:12 pm by BrianHG »
__________
BrianHG.
 
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Online ckambiselis

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2018, 07:23:43 pm »
The red Wihas are of the electricians line all made to current standards, it doesn't have 2 torque/speed modes cause it's not made for that, it's made for electricians doing building installations, wall sockets, switches etc, all those usually have plastic covers that would break/stripped if over torqued and the speed it good enough because the screws used have a course pitch or are not that long, also people in the field usually want something that is quick to use without many adjustments, cause if it has adjustments they are usually dialed to the max. For device repair a Makita of the same style as the Panasonic you showed has been serving me pretty well and the price was lower. Also import taxes in Australia seem crazy, the price went almost double.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 07:57:59 pm by ckambiselis »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2018, 09:20:13 pm »
Python is a garbage. There is absolutely no excuse to write and ship software on Python.
It is a scripting language. Yes, it is okay to write some quick and dirty script to process some data on Python, run it, and then throw the script away.
And no, it is not okay redistribute those scripts for users who are not "experts" in Python scripting.

Bollocks.  Guess the IEEE doe'snt know whats its talking about.

The IEEE ranked Python as the #1 programming language in 2018 after ranking as the #1 language in 2017 and #3 top programming language in 2016. RedMonk's June 2017 ranking, had Python at #3, which was up one slot from their same ranking two years earlier.

Eh, no. The IEEE rated Python as the most POPULAR language. This says nothing about its capabilities or suitability for a particular job, just how often it's being used: https://spectrum.ieee.org/static/ieee-top-programming-languages-2018-methods

So? A few years ago it was Visual Basic.

I'm with Dave. As soon as I see "Python" and "Github" then whatever it is, it isn't going to be installed.

Unfair? Make it so that Python can live in a folder that's distributed alongside the app and the whole thing works by unzipping a file and double-clicking a bootstrap exe.

There were changes in Python v3 that (may) cause v2 scripts to fail. It maybe a tedious work to re-write the code.
Python may be a great tool for developers but the idea of having the end user deal with it is ill.

Yep. Whatever the supposed merits of Python are, it totally fails when it comes to distribution/compatibility.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 09:24:13 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2018, 09:45:09 pm »
I did'nt like it at all. I had it playing in the background while i was packing products for shipping.

I dont' need to see you opening boxes.  I can accept that they actually got sent to you.   
I'd rather see a lot more things in much less detail.    If i'm interested in it further i can follow the links to it.
20 minutes with 20 products would be awesome.
What's the point of just opening packages? That doesn't sound enjoyable at all.
 

Offline itdontgo

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2018, 10:00:00 pm »


Now that's a man's schematic

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2018, 10:02:43 pm »


Now that's a man's schematic
I'm not sure how I feel about this trend of broken up schematics where it could just as easily be a bigger and more readable single or fewer part schematic. Parts also seem unconnected in this specific one?
 

Offline itdontgo

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2018, 10:11:39 pm »
Maybe it's an Eagle thing.

Offline Quarlo Klobrigney

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2018, 10:16:13 pm »
Not an "Eagle thing". It's an operator of Eagle has no clue how to lay out a schematic. His board is nothing to look at either.
Quote from: itdontgo on Today at 07:11:39
Maybe it's an Eagle thing.
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2018, 10:27:31 pm »


Now that's a man's schematic
I'm not sure how I feel about this trend of broken up schematics where it could just as easily be a bigger and more readable single or fewer part schematic. Parts also seem unconnected in this specific one?
This has to be sarcasm... This schematic is quite bad as well. :-//
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Online taydin

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2018, 11:19:55 pm »
We should have a topic for this where all horror schematics go into  ;D
Real programmers use machine code!

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Offline tombi

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2018, 11:44:11 pm »
Python is a garbage. There is absolutely no excuse to write and ship software on Python.
It is a scripting language. Yes, it is okay to write some quick and dirty script to process some data on Python, run it, and then throw the script away.
And no, it is not okay redistribute those scripts for users who are not "experts" in Python scripting.

Actually I disagree in part - there are some excellent scientific tools for python including systems and control libraries, plotting (they clearly used matplotlib) and symbolic maths libraries. It might be good to use Python if you wanted to use this thing for some sort of signal processing type application. Providing python bindings would definitely be useful.

I don't think the language matters much. I think that they should have hidden the fact that it is Python more during installation. Also - that scope screen seems to be straight Matplotlib plot - that's why most of the menus don't make sense. The software is barely there - looks to be a small bit of code wrapped around the hardware. I think if they actually implemented some oscilloscope software for it things might be different.

Maybe in some contexts that would be ok - have you ever used a HackRF? Not easy to get started but you expect it to be that way.

The problem is they say it is an oscilloscope. I think Dave is right - it's a DAQ - or a DIY oscilloscope-ish kit (with no front-end worth a damn).

If you want to see what you can do with Python in EE checkout APMonitor.com on youtube. Basically FOSS Matlab.

 
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Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #76 on: October 03, 2018, 12:23:38 am »
I agree that Github and Python are mainstream tools nowadays but the requirement to have to tinker with them to get a trace out of a scope is due for criticism.

My requirement for a scope is that if I turn it on and connect the probe I get a trace after a bit of knob twiddling or pressing AUTO  :)

w.r.t. the screwdriver.... I do think this is garbage and looks like a paid for promo (that didn't go quite according to plan thanks to a bit of Dave objectivity)... A nice set of manual Wika electricians screwdrivers is around £25 here in the UK.... and if you really have 1kV would you really want an electric screwdriver running amok... and what happens when the screw is fully unscrewed and drops out.... Vorsprung Durch Bulls**t



 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #77 on: October 03, 2018, 02:41:38 am »
As far as the WIHA screwdriver, I was excited to see it work...then fail on every count. Ease of operation 0, Functionality 0, Necessity 0, Battery 0, A clean yellow parts surface after 3 months or real use 0, price -4
There is actually a whole product category just for torque limited setting of screws/threaded inserts/pins, there might even be a limit on contacts. But most of it is in the area of industrial connectors and pogo pins, i.e. not philips or flat head.

Most of these obviously don´t make much sense for the homegamers, as their typical applications are due to the lack of documentation and based on expectation more likely abuse resistant, than having a low defined torque. So i see this Wiha thing as kind of a bridge solution to get into this kind of market, and trying to satisfy some of the electronic screwdriver "hype" thingy. Plus there probably is an ergonomic benefit if you do e.g. disassemble whole compartments of contactors and breakers or rewire with the correct rated wire and do not want to break out the (lowest torque setting) power drill.

There might also be areas with a requirement to work with VDE rated equipment only, which quickly inhibits the use of other alternatives. And not to forget the thing looks like a conventional screwdriver, so is less likely to be stolen.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #78 on: October 03, 2018, 03:16:51 am »
But please, tell me, what good stuff would you say about it?

4 channels. 60 MHz. An fpga! It works! Looks good! Promising! But the software is unfinished... I don't know. How would I know? Poor guy. I feel sorry for him.
int main (void) { while (1) fork(); }
 

Offline jnissen

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #79 on: October 03, 2018, 03:36:21 am »
Sorry but will not sit through 20 minutes of just getting to 2 packages. Worthless at that point.  |O

Brutalized the scope card. Ive never seen a USB scope ever lead me to believe they are a replacement for the real thing. Why get upset that it does not meet your expectations! Like complaining that your apple looks like an orange.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 03:38:41 am by jnissen »
 

Offline haastyle

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #80 on: October 03, 2018, 05:39:00 am »
Don't worry, I'm doing fine!
I made an attempt at cleaning up the schematic:
https://github.com/drandyhaas/Haasoscope/blob/master/eagle/max10adc_v9.0_schematic.pdf

The software does work well, but takes some practice using. I of course agree it could be made easier to use. And I also agree python has its major drawbacks for this sort of application. But don't give up on the Haasoscope!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 05:45:53 am by haastyle »
 
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Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #81 on: October 03, 2018, 05:56:17 am »
int main (void) { while (1) fork(); }
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #82 on: October 03, 2018, 06:04:19 am »
Sorry but will not sit through 20 minutes of just getting to 2 packages. Worthless at that point.  |O

Brutalized the scope card. Ive never seen a USB scope ever lead me to believe they are a replacement for the real thing. Why get upset that it does not meet your expectations! Like complaining that your apple looks like an orange.

Because the letter stated they hoped it'd change his mind on USB scopes. When the design didn't even properly support oscilloscope probes.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #83 on: October 03, 2018, 06:29:16 am »
If there are no more than two packages per week sent, then we don't even need this discussion. - New format is OK :) If there are more than few and some packages are going to never be opened in front of the camera - then there's problem.

Or that's just life and your package does not get shown on air. If its a "promotional" item then you could send it to mickmake or someone else instead.

Don't worry, I'm doing fine!
I made an attempt at cleaning up the schematic:
https://github.com/drandyhaas/Haasoscope/blob/master/eagle/max10adc_v9.0_schematic.pdf

The software does work well, but takes some practice using. I of course agree it could be made easier to use. And I also agree python has its major drawbacks for this sort of application. But don't give up on the Haasoscope!

Looks much better.
If you are still looking for ideas: could still get rid of those big round circles, and the "pas 1", "sup 0" texts. Also move text if its vertical or overlapping with other text.
BNC circuit can be horizontally laid out instead of vertical.
 

Online ogden

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #84 on: October 03, 2018, 07:17:57 am »
If there are more than few and some packages are going to never be opened in front of the camera - then there's problem.

Or that's just life and your package does not get shown on air.

I was hoping someone will say exactly that. - I will not mail anything if I am not sure that my letter will be ever read by Dave. Others may think same way. In result you can rename Mailbox to just "review of product X and Y" video.

Quote
If its a "promotional" item then you could send it to mickmake or someone else instead.

I don't care about business here. They most likely will send their wireless ESD wristbands or something like that no matter what.

[edit]  Screwdriver seemed like very promotional item. Far from package from some kid who want his first PCB to be checked by Dave.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 07:20:12 am by ogden »
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #85 on: October 03, 2018, 07:23:53 am »
If there are more than few and some packages are going to never be opened in front of the camera - then there's problem.

Or that's just life and your package does not get shown on air.

I was hoping someone will say exactly that. - I will not mail anything if I am not sure that my letter will be ever read by Dave. Others may think same way. In result you can rename Mailbox to just "review of product X and Y" video.

Quote
If its a "promotional" item then you could send it to mickmake or someone else instead.

I don't care about business here. They most likely will send their wireless ESD wristbands or something like that no matter what.

[edit]  Screwdriver seemed like very promotional item. Far from package from some kid who want his first PCB to be checked by Dave.

Except mailbag monday could allow him to actually get to the more time sensitive stuff in a timely manner. I don't think his plan is to throw half in the trash just stick to a couple items. That way he spends less time editing and less time recording while still checking things out. 8 items a month is plenty. Just because this mailbag seemed like two reviews doesn't mean they all will. That's just the nature of these items he picked.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #86 on: October 03, 2018, 07:40:08 am »
Because the letter stated they hoped it'd change his mind on USB scopes.

Do not know about Dave but it did change My mind on USB scopes, from 'junk' to 'total junk'
 

Online ogden

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #87 on: October 03, 2018, 09:23:29 am »
Do not know about Dave but it did change My mind on USB scopes, from 'junk' to 'total junk'

Maybe narrow your junk category to "Open source USB scopes"? I would not call PicoScope, CleverScope or Keysight U2702A as junk ;)
 
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Offline station240

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #88 on: October 03, 2018, 11:04:46 am »
I, too, wondered about the 1KV rating for the screwdriver.  I would like to see an example of the use case they had in mind - but even so, what if you are unscrewing something that did need that rating ... and then dropped a screw from the tip.   :o

You just need a 1KV rated Magnetic Pick Up Tool  :-DD

I have to admit, despite what Dave said I like everything about the WIHA Electric Screwdriver, except the price.
Dave would never part with the thing, so no point even asking for one.

As for the HaasoScope, I'd expect that level of mistakes in a prototype. Making something open source, is not a replacement for actually fixing the problems with it.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #89 on: October 03, 2018, 11:13:18 am »
Don't worry, I'm doing fine!
I made an attempt at cleaning up the schematic:
https://github.com/drandyhaas/Haasoscope/blob/master/eagle/max10adc_v9.0_schematic.pdf

This is slightly better. Some tips:

  • even in Eagle you can use multiple pages. Maybe a good idea to group things like power supply and decoupling to one page, front end to another page, and the digital stuff on a 3rd page
  • the front ends part still doesn't look nice. In many schematics you have all inputs on the left side, and all outputs (or outputs to other parts of the schematic) at the right side. You could organize the 4 blocks vertically, and then the coaxial connector at the left side, then right to it the range selection and relay.
  • even better: use the hierarchy feature of Eagle (which it has finally in newer versions) and draw the front end only once, then just instantiate 4 blocks. Many professional schematics use this feature as well for one main page with blocks for all logical parts and the connections between them, and then the blocks itself are listed on other pages
  • the "front end and gain offset" block looks very crowded. Leave some more space between the components and use the Eagle "smash" feature to move the labels, and then maybe use sub-circuits for the MAX4416, so that each channel looks the same (see e.g. the 7400 for an example how it is done, or read the manual). Again, it is better if all inputs are at the left side and all outputs are at the right side.
  • in other postings it looks like you used the auto-router and no ground plane. That's not a good idea for the FPGA. And looks like you connected the FPGA just in sequence with the peripherals. How I do such things: I place the parts on the board and look at the ratsnest (that's how unrouted wires are called in Eagle). Then I use the "pin-swap" function a lot, to make it look less like a rats nest, with nice parallel lines and not many intersections. Then I try to route it by hand, using pin-swap again while routing. Newer Eagle version can do push-and-shove routing, like KiCad which I use nowadays, so it is not that difficult anymore. You can use the auto-router to give you hints, where components might be not placed optimally or more pin-swaps are necessary, but then rip-off the routed traces of the auto-router again (or don't save the auto-routed board and reload it). Auto-routers are nice for low-speed designs.
  • for such a high speed design, you really want a nice solid ground plane, with no or only very short traces on it. And when routing, start with the supply voltage, with very direct connections, then route the signals. If you have 4 layers, you can reserve one dedicated layer for the supply voltages as well.
  • some parts don't need to be blocks, you should connect them directly to the FPGA, e.g. the crystal oscillator etc., because then it is easier to see which parts belong to which other parts

The software does work well, but takes some practice using. I of course agree it could be made easier to use. And I also agree python has its major drawbacks for this sort of application. But don't give up on the Haasoscope!

Nowadays software should explain itself. And users, especially on Windows, expect a nice "setup.exe" to install it. Try to imagine the user experience of an engineer, who wants a nice USB scope, but has never heard of Python. He/she wouldn't recommend your scope, that's for sure.
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #90 on: October 03, 2018, 11:46:42 am »
Python is basically used as a free alternative to Labview at many companies I have worked at. I like it not only because it's hobbyist friendly but also because Labview (when I last used it) quickly becomes a mess when dealing with complex programs.
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Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #91 on: October 03, 2018, 12:24:50 pm »
I have to admit, despite what Dave said I like everything about the WIHA Electric Screwdriver, except the price.
Dave would never part with the thing, so no point even asking for one.

As a prolific power tool junkie I thought the screwdriver was an overpriced joke, the last thing any technician wants to risk doing is breaking or stripping out the termination screws on an RCD, MCB, Relay, Contactor, Bus Bar or other device inside an electrical fuse or distribution panel, not only could it result in a hazardous condition but it would also ruin your entire day chasing a replacement part.   

Furthermore, from my experience most cable and terminal connections inside these cabinets really only require a couple of turns from a regular screwdriver to properly and securely terminate a connection, I somehow doubt that people would bother dicking around trying to find the correct or appropriate torque setting for a particular termination. The bullshit packaging lost me from the get go but if anybody wants one of these tools then the fellow below said he was giving a few away. 

 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #92 on: October 03, 2018, 01:03:03 pm »
... But don't give up on the Haasoscope!

We won't give up on it - but I hope your next iteration takes into consideration all the issues that have been raised.  It may sound brutal - but having clear criticism is much kinder to the development process.  Some of the design decisions that may appear to have equally valid alternatives in theory, often turn out to have one very clear winner in practice.

Your bold invitation for Dave to reassess his opinion on USB scopes attracted big interest - and the fact that it failed to deliver on some of the fundamental issues with these didn't help.

Certainly, some software improvements are necessary - but, IMHO, you will need to address some improvements in the hardware side - such as available vertical ranges and ease of changing these - and sweep ranges.


There is potential here - but it will need more effort to start closing in on the USB scope that will change Dave's mind about them.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #93 on: October 03, 2018, 08:59:33 pm »
Quote
Python is basically used as a free alternative to Labview at many companies I have worked at.
Very good news !

Quote
Labview quickly becomes a mess when dealing with complex programs.
Yes. it's a real mess.
 

Offline Noon

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #94 on: October 04, 2018, 03:17:44 pm »
Asking the important questions here, but does anyone know about the red t-shirt Dave wears in this video? I'm really digging the design...
 

Offline haastyle

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Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
« Reply #95 on: October 04, 2018, 10:02:57 pm »
    • for such a high speed design, you really want a nice solid ground plane, with no or only very short traces on it. And when routing, start with the supply voltage, with very direct connections, then route the signals. If you have 4 layers, you can reserve one dedicated layer for the supply voltages as well.

    Thanks for the tips. There is a gnd plane though (with no traces on it). The exact way I've done the routing/layers is explained in the manual:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1euyzCGzQo0u9APwEeior9fpyhcYWbkNxYQaV7SuFfoE

    Best, Andy.
     

    Online NANDBlog

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    Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
    « Reply #96 on: October 05, 2018, 06:42:22 am »
    Don't worry, I'm doing fine!
    I made an attempt at cleaning up the schematic:
    https://github.com/drandyhaas/Haasoscope/blob/master/eagle/max10adc_v9.0_schematic.pdf

    The software does work well, but takes some practice using. I of course agree it could be made easier to use. And I also agree python has its major drawbacks for this sort of application. But don't give up on the Haasoscope!
    Step in the right direction. Not perfect, but it is a start.
    But you also need to clean up your layout, and that is even more effort. There are functional reasons, why this is important. Basically, you need to read high speed PCB design techniques, and apply them to your board.
    Read this: http://www.analog.com/en/analog-dialogue/articles/high-speed-printed-circuit-board-layout.html
    and this: http://www.ti.com/lit/ml/slyp173/slyp173.pdf
    Have someone review your board before next release. Pay him if you need to. You received money from other people to make this, use it. As I said, the layout has many issues, dont ship it as it is, karma is going to bite back.
     

    Offline FrankBuss

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    Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
    « Reply #97 on: October 05, 2018, 09:16:58 am »
    Thanks for the tips. There is a gnd plane though (with no traces on it). The exact way I've done the routing/layers is explained in the manual:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1euyzCGzQo0u9APwEeior9fpyhcYWbkNxYQaV7SuFfoE

    Ok, a good gnd plane is good. But I think you need more decoupling capacitors for the FPGA and they should be closer to the FPGA. But your layout still looks like Dave's "don't trust the auto router" T-shirt  :) I don't know if this is good for such a high speed design. With pin-swap you could use much less vias and more direct connections, there is lots of space on the board, and when you increase the board in order to use standard scope probes, you would have even more space.

    Compare your layout:



    To my hand routed layout of my Kerberos cartridge, where I used lots of pin-swaps, because you can assign them all in the FPGA (CPLD in my case) as you like, if the power bank is right:



    It is a 4 layer board, with one dedicated GND layer and one (mostly) dedicated power supply layer, and I managed to route the rest on 2 layers. There are also some other tricks for easier routing, like you don't need to connect D0-D7 of the external bus to D0-D7 of the RAM IC, because it doesn't matter, if the RAM data bit 7 is accessed by the bus data bit 3.
    So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
     

    Offline Quarlo Klobrigney

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    Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
    « Reply #98 on: October 05, 2018, 09:44:55 am »
    I'm just migrating from the other forum thread.

    This is how a properly drawn Eagle Schematic (everything from center to left of center) is drawn. No grounds on top, VCC on bottom. Confusing when there is real estate to do it right. The caps US symbol types in the power supply's are upside-down. They are also renamed instead of their reference C#'s. Same with the LED resistors. Your CH340 part grabber is way off center and on the wrong layer (it's all black). I didn't do all of it and I know I missed some items, but I have other things to do. Multiple stray leads. Do you even do an error check for both sch and brd? I say that because you would see what I see.
    Also, no fill planes on board. I'm sure there are other no-no's.

    Even though it's a different layer, it's bad form as it looks like a short. Like this on the board:
    And the strays errors in the schematic:
    « Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 09:47:38 am by Quarlo Klobrigney »
    Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go.
     

    Offline McBryce

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    Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
    « Reply #99 on: October 05, 2018, 04:53:50 pm »
    you don't need to connect D0-D7 of the external bus to D0-D7 of the RAM IC, because it doesn't matter, if the RAM data bit 7 is accessed by the bus data bit 3.

    I hate when people do this, because it makes debugging a nightmare when the only accessable data bus pins are in the wrong order.

    McBryce.
     

    Online mrpackethead

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    Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
    « Reply #100 on: October 05, 2018, 05:15:40 pm »
    I figure this will be the best USB scope ever. Everyone is going to contribute to make it perfect.  Maybe Dave will be moved. Maybe this will proove the value of opensource Hardware.
    On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
     

    Offline FrankBuss

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    Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
    « Reply #101 on: October 05, 2018, 05:16:17 pm »
    you don't need to connect D0-D7 of the external bus to D0-D7 of the RAM IC, because it doesn't matter, if the RAM data bit 7 is accessed by the bus data bit 3.

    I hate when people do this, because it makes debugging a nightmare when the only accessable data bus pins are in the wrong order.

    McBryce.

    For my Vectrex cartridge I connected even the address bus of a flash in an arbitrary way, works great  ;D



    And routing was much easier, because of the KiCad push-and-shove function. The old Eagle version I used for my Kerberos board didn't have it, manual routing was a nightmare. Only problem was that KiCad doesn't have pin-swap, so I had to "emulate" it by using labels in the circuit diagram for all connections and then moving the labels, re-exporting and importing the netlist etc.



    Maybe someday I will switch to a professional program like Altium CircuitStudio. I recently installed Altium Studio (again after I gave it a trial some years ago). Just with a free viewer license, because a client used it to design a board I'm writing the firmware for, and it looks really good.
    So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
     

    Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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    Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
    « Reply #102 on: October 05, 2018, 05:18:42 pm »
    I also cross the address lines :-)
    int main (void) { while (1) fork(); }
     

    Offline BrianHG

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    Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
    « Reply #103 on: October 05, 2018, 07:51:08 pm »
    you don't need to connect D0-D7 of the external bus to D0-D7 of the RAM IC, because it doesn't matter, if the RAM data bit 7 is accessed by the bus data bit 3.

    I hate when people do this, because it makes debugging a nightmare when the only accessable data bus pins are in the wrong order.

    McBryce.
    Hun, how do you expect the ram's DQStrobe groups and write masks at every 4 bits to line up and function right?
    As for messing with the address lines, how do you expect extended page bursts and proper enhanced bank interleaving to function correctly giving continuous 0 wasted data buss cycles when using bank-interleaved ram access?

    I can see how you can get away with a small static ram IC access.  You can also at some level do it with DDR2/DDR3 ram on the basis the FPGA doesn't have dedicated DQStrobe for certain IO pin groups to get the highest FMAX out of your DDR IO ports.  Complete careless random swaps are no longer good enough unless you are using 1x DRAM with a fixed burst size and want to re-RAS/CAS cycle every new read or write instead of enhance smart 1 full page access only re-issuing a new RAS only when crossing a page boundary or refresh is required.
    « Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 08:01:56 pm by BrianHG »
    __________
    BrianHG.
     

    Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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    Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
    « Reply #104 on: October 05, 2018, 08:16:39 pm »
    EPROMs don't seem to care :-)
    int main (void) { while (1) fork(); }
     

    Offline FrankBuss

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    Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
    « Reply #105 on: October 05, 2018, 11:51:22 pm »
    Right, no problem for old-school EPROMs, flash and static RAM :) Except for the flash there was a minor twist, that there are special commands implemented by writing to special addresses for flashing and erasing, which I had to remap in the programmer. And you can't do meaningful block erase, but there is a chip erase command as well, and there is only a single byte flashing command.
    So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
     

    Offline EEVblog

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    Re: EEVblog #1127 - Mailbag Monday
    « Reply #106 on: October 07, 2018, 09:47:58 pm »
    Asking the important questions here, but does anyone know about the red t-shirt Dave wears in this video? I'm really digging the design...

    It's the EFF "Freedom Cat"
    https://supporters.eff.org/t-shirt-size-chart

     

    Offline pshersby

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    SPEEDE pricey bits!!!!
    « Reply #107 on: January 26, 2019, 12:47:53 am »
    I have this screwdriver and I do use it quite a lot for repair work.  It is nice to habve a standard size screwdriver on the bench and be able to swap bits without it turniong into a pile of odd screwdrivers,  As well as the basic kit, I picked up a separate kit with normal handle from wiha because it was the cheapest way of getting all the extra 6mm hex fitting bits and something to store them in, it also means I can have the frequent use bit in the speede and another bit in the normal handle.

    In terms of shape, build an tip quality really happy.

    First problem Forget the price of the system, this is how wiha really make money!!!!! --> only 6mm hex bits fit NOT 1/4 inch, and the wiha bits are pricey,  I had to order a separate T8 bit,  (I think WERA might also be doing some 6mm bits now, but just flat, pozi, philips and a small range of torx, none of the other security bits etc).  The Wiha range is really limited.
    Next - slow turning, but fast enough - however slow gearing should mean plenty of torque so it can undo screws, but it is hopeless for that - I need to start almost every screw manually then engage the power,  and if you try to be clever and simultaneously operate the ring switch, then it detects overcurrent, switches off, so you do not get austomatic transition from turning manually to turning by power, you have to relase the switch and re-enable - it annoys me every time!

    So I've got one, i use it, I like Wiha drivers, but won't buy from these guys again, over priced driver, limited bits, and locked into expensive Wiha 6mm hex fittings - I pay good money for good product, but this leaves a bad taste.  Buy something else.
     


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