Author Topic: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope  (Read 43669 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Dave updates the EEVblog lab benches with a continuous 6.3 m roll of dual layer rubber ESD matting.
http://www.oritech.com.au/categories.aspx?categoryID=332&name=ESD-Matting
And a first glimpse of the Tagarno MAGNUS FHD ZIP USB 3 60fps Full HD Video Microscope
http://www.tagarno.com/products/magnus-fhd-zip-0
And special guest appearance by Sagan

 

Offline Rory

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2014, 10:29:54 am »
If you don't like the mat overhanging the front of the bench, how about pulling the bench out a bit so the overhang is in the rear?
 

Offline M4trix

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2014, 11:18:08 am »
Ooops, MAGNUS HD ZIP video-microscope is 3,150 euros. That's a big tall glass of nope!  :scared:

 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2014, 12:36:48 pm »
I have the same kind of ESD mat, only the black rubber on the back looks a bit thinner on my mat, with the same overhanging problem. I solved it with some nails, it looks a bit like a tablecloth now:



But it would require Mrs. EEVblog to motivate me to cleanup my workbench :)
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
 

Offline RobB

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2014, 01:12:00 pm »
Nice roll of ESD matting Dave and not too outrageously expensive when bought as a complete roll. Problem is not many would have the need for a full roll so a group buy may be a goer for us in Aus at least. Any interest?
I'm in WA so probably not the best person to coordinate this.

Cheers
Rob
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2014, 01:19:12 pm »
Dave, does the [dis]organization of your lab affect your productivity?   

I am impressed how 'busy' your new lab's bench looks like.  ;-)
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline calin

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 01:52:57 pm »
This makes me laugh my head off ... today I just bought two of these baking mats so I don't burn my bench.  There is professional .. hobby aaand ... then Ikea  :)

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00175250/

What ESD .. it has hearts and butterflies on one side and some conversion tables from Fahrenheit to Celsius so i get my soldering iron just right
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 02:10:19 pm »
I have the same kind of ESD mat, only the black rubber on the back looks a bit thinner on my mat, with the same overhanging problem. I solved it with some nails, it looks a bit like a tablecloth now:

That looks like PVC type? (shiny)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 02:14:16 pm »
Dave, does the [dis]organization of your lab affect your productivity? 

Yes, very much.
I'll always having to look for even basic stuff like camera remote, various screwdrivers, lenses sometimes, cables, adapters, project parts etc etc I even lost my Rigol scope once for a day - seriously, I found it buried under some used bubble wrap on the floor. You'd be surprised at the stuff that ends up on the floor...
 

Offline calexanian

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 02:42:58 pm »
Looking pretty good there. One day, decades from now Sagan will see that video of himself running up and down the bench. I have one picture of dad and myself rooting through a junk drawer from when I was about 4 or 5. Not many other photos from back then. I still run up and down the benches on occasion though.  ;D
Charles Alexanian
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2014, 03:04:34 pm »
Just as an aside, there's nothing wrong with PVC mats, they're just for a different purpose.

Think module-level work, PC construction, and the like. No need for puncture, heat, or chemical resistance, and no need for the expense!
 

Offline dakiller

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2014, 04:13:31 pm »
mektronics.com.au will sell you this exact mat in custom length, I got 3 metres for $145.50 + gst for my bench, just have to email them.

Had the same dimensional problems as you Dave as well, made my bench exactly 900mm and the mat was bloody 910mm, would have been nice to know that before I built the bench.

 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2014, 04:38:31 pm »
Looking at the video of the lab in its messy state... and realising that's what my house is going to look like... when I buy one that is...  :palm:
 

Offline linux-works

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2014, 04:40:17 pm »
any suggestions on where to get good quality (yet still affordable) mats here in the US?

I looked at amazon but can't be sure if this is junk or good stuff, there.  mostly I see vinyl junk.  I'm looking for the solder-resistant blue top surface and rubber backing.  I'll probably need 6' by 30" (size of a typical folding table that you find at office supply stores).
 

Offline pickle9000

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Offline linux-works

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2014, 05:11:43 pm »
thanks, pickle ;)

looks affordable and ships from the US if going to the US.  works for me.

they have too many choices, though.

I did like the color that dave used.  is that technically grey?  its not really green, is it?  and its obviously not dark blue, as the stuff he had before was dark blue.  the lighter color does help brighten up the place, so I'd go with lighter vs darker, if given a choice.

I assume I want double layer and not triple, yes?

what's all the stuff about grounding points, though?  they seem to have a few styles and I'm not sure what to get.

btw, is it really sufficient to ground it at just one point?  would it be useful to ground it every 1 metre's length, or so?  can you add extra snaps to it?  if I cut it into sections, I'd want to add grounding to each section, of course.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2014, 06:12:54 pm »
There are smooth and textured finishes, the colours are fairly accurate, mine is blue. They come with or without a grounding kit. No need to add extra ground points (but you do need one). I do have the three layer but if I buy any more I'd get the 2 layer. The three layer ones took a few days to flatten out. 

Mine are way over 2 years old, I have 2pcs of 24x60, I picked a textured finish. They are tough and one has been abused daily with no issues. Cleans up with soap and water / windex. 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 06:47:33 pm by pickle9000 »
 

Offline jonwilhelmjr

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2014, 06:29:54 pm »
I was wondering what is the height of the work bench. Also what is the dimensions of the shelving. I am really excited to see what you come up with dave. I am a sucker for new gear. I would be cool to see a tear down of the new microscope too.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2014, 06:37:56 pm »
The ESD matting is next to useless unless it is connected to earth by a press stud and wire. Don't rely on the moisture in the wooden bench top and if the benchtop is lacquered, it won't work too well. Melamine finishing is useless for draining static charge away.

A useful tip is to insert a few studs so you can connect a wrist strap at different points along the way, towards the rear because they tend to get in the way near the front. Anyone who had had to work with expensive lasers will know how ESD can ruin your day. And despite the urban myth, electronic components can be damaged by office ESD. It is not worth the risk. Invest in a wrist strap.

Heel straps are next to useless unless you have a clean ESD CONDUCTIVE floor and don't have hairy legs.


 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2014, 06:45:15 pm »
Sorry, yes you need a ground point just not one every few inches.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2014, 06:55:49 pm »
Dave's bench top sports a large area and good shelves. Very nice. But like having station wagon, it takes discipline not to fill it up with rubbish. Storing stuff underneath is OK providing you can get to everything without moving anything and it does not interfere with your legs.

It appears most of the instruments are not fixed and therefore are not plugged into the mains. If that is the case, the less used equipment might as well be stored in a compactus. I have found keeping the rear of a desk at least a mains plug width away from the wall is a good idea so that mains cables can easily be added and removed. Excess main cable lengths should be cable tied neatly. There is nothing worse than a rats nest of mains cables. Mains cables can have colour adhesive tags added at each end to identify which cable IEC plug belongs to which mains plug. Alternatively, an array of convenient mains sockets could be installed at the bench. The rule is: an extension cord should never be needed at an electronics bench.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2014, 07:00:47 pm »
I was wondering what is the height of the work bench. Also what is the dimensions of the shelving.


Shelving is the discontinued Broder system from Ikea, freestanding.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2014, 07:01:47 pm »
Alternatively, an array of convenient mains sockets could be installed at the bench. The rule is: an extension cord should never be needed at an electronics bench.

I have 60 mains outlets spread out under the bench.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2014, 07:08:41 pm »
If you spend 8 hour a day in bed, you need a good bed. If you spend 8 hours a day at the electronics workbench you need a good desk.

A mate invested in an electronically height adjustable work bench with a remote control. It is brilliant. He bought the mechanism and added a new low cost solid door as the bench top. So he often stands at his workbench. Also depending upon the height of what he is working on, he just adjusts the bench. BRILLIANT.

Maybe Dave could add one of these to his arsenal...

http://www.stretchnow.com.au/furniture/height-adjustable-desks
 

Offline hikariuk

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2014, 07:26:58 pm »
If you don't like the mat overhanging the front of the bench, how about pulling the bench out a bit so the overhang is in the rear?

Or he could just trim the edge off.
I write software.  I'd far rather be doing something else.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2014, 07:30:55 pm »
mektronics.com.au will sell you this exact mat in custom length, I got 3 metres for $145.50 + gst for my bench, just have to email them.


Nice setup. The lighting is excellent!

Regarding the speakers, you would only get the stereo effect when at the computer is being used, but not when you are at the electronics desk. That might be OK for bubblegum pop music from Kylie Minogue, but not if you like the full stereo effect in Dark Side of the Moon. Maybe a third speaker and a switch would be a simple solution, ie: the stereo across the workbench OR stereo across the computer desk.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2014, 07:32:51 pm »
Dave, please, if you had a chance, take a macro close up shots of both mat's cross section whether they're similar. Also I'm curious how many layers does that new one have.

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2014, 07:46:26 pm »
Just leave it as a bump stop. If he really was bothered he would cut some notches in the back side by the supports and pull it back on the top to clear.
 

Offline ChrisKiwi

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2014, 08:21:35 pm »
If you use a box cutter from the edge of the mat (not the top surface), runing down the length of the mat using the bench as a guide leaves a nice clean edge on the mat.  If you get the angle of the box cutter right, it will cut through the mat quite easily if the blade is new.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2014, 08:32:44 pm »
A mate invested in an electronically height adjustable work bench with a remote control. It is brilliant. He bought the mechanism and added a new low cost solid door as the bench top. So he often stands at his workbench. Also depending upon the height of what he is working on, he just adjusts the bench. BRILLIANT.

Infinitely easier (and cheaper) to build the bench to standing height, and just get a proper height stool.
 

Offline Steffen

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2014, 12:24:22 am »
I have 60 mains outlets spread out under the bench.

All powered by one 16 amps fuse from one wall socket or do you use at least 3 eaqual groups (20 outlets per phase) in a 3 phase AC system (TNCS)? Sometimes you may want to have seperate systems.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2014, 12:34:54 am »
I have the same kind of ESD mat, only the black rubber on the back looks a bit thinner on my mat, with the same overhanging problem. I solved it with some nails, it looks a bit like a tablecloth now:

That looks like PVC type? (shiny)
I don't know, but it is pretty resistant. Solder drops are no problem, and I just touched it with a 320°C solder iron. It starts to get dark after 5 seconds, but no flames or smelling.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2014, 12:38:07 am »
If you use a box cutter from the edge of the mat (not the top surface), runing down the length of the mat using the bench as a guide leaves a nice clean edge on the mat.  If you get the angle of the box cutter right, it will cut through the mat quite easily if the blade is new.

True but just be careful of the lateral angle of the blade. If the mat is free to slide on the bench the blade angle can suck the mat slowly off the bench giving a ever widening strip being cut off. Its easy to get tunnel vision on the blade mat interface and not notice the problem occurring.  Just speaking from experience :-[

Offline Deepak

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2014, 02:15:42 am »
Just watched this video. Looks like Sagan is an HP Agilent Keysight man
 

Offline Rory

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2014, 02:58:35 am »
If you don't like the mat overhanging the front of the bench, how about pulling the bench out a bit so the overhang is in the rear?

Or he could just trim the edge off.

If he does, it would be a smart idea to cut the edge off the side facing the wall. Unless Dave's a professional linoleum cutter, no edge he can produce will match the straightness of the factory cut. But why take the risk?
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2014, 03:11:38 am »
If you spend 8 hour a day in bed, you need a good bed. If you spend 8 hours a day at the electronics workbench you need a good desk.

A mate invested in an electronically height adjustable work bench with a remote control. It is brilliant. He bought the mechanism and added a new low cost solid door as the bench top. So he often stands at his workbench. Also depending upon the height of what he is working on, he just adjusts the bench. BRILLIANT.

"Sitting is the new smoking"

There are several types of height adjustable. Mechanical (with a spring to oppose gravity), electric (with up/down switches) and electronic (with a few height memories).  Make sure you have enough clearance for your cables (e.g. a monitor cable connected to a computer on the floor). Very popular around here.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline lewis

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2014, 04:57:44 am »
That Tagarno scope is just pure porn, can't wait to have a look at it.
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Offline Dave Turner

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2014, 05:38:04 am »
I bought grey rather than blue because I find it easier on the eye. It is grey not light blue as Dave's new mat appears to be. Hey, each to their own! I did, however, pay for the same type of mat that Dave uses as I wanted something more resistant to damage than my previous mat used in computer field repair.

I can understand widths of 914.4 and 900; but why 910? There has to be some logic.

As far as cutting Dave's new mat I would have advised double sided tape at the back of the bench and cutting there leaving the front visible edge factory cut; doubtless, this is way too late now.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2014, 05:46:39 am »
Has anyone tried anti-static neoprene as a cheaper alternative?

http://www.par-group.co.uk/sealing-jointing/Neoprene-Flame-Retardant-ISO340-Rubber-Sheeting.aspx

I just used black rubber belt matting that is slightly conductive. Around 100k per square, and happily survives soldering directly on it. Was an offcut from getting a conveyor belt made, out of the scrap bin. At 6mm thick it makes nice bump stops as well, and is machinable to an extent, but is scuff resistant and resists most things short of a sharp knife.

As for width they generally rounded down the old imperial measures to metric. Never up , always down. That is why you get all those odd sized metric dimensions like planed finished battens being 40x40mm, and 15mm copper pipe which almost fits the old half inch copper compression fitting.
 

Offline Dave Turner

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2014, 06:44:26 am »
Apologies, slightly off topic - but a typical UK classic was 8 foot x 4 foot x 5mm for sheet material.
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Weight Lift
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2014, 07:30:36 am »
You really got muscles, Dave.

Big thumbs up for your son and your wife.

Both really have a feeling and understanding for your electronics passion.

Frank
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 07:32:30 am by Dr. Frank »
 

Offline JackOfVA

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2014, 09:44:48 am »
Question for Dave ... your wife has - to my ears - a different accent than you do. Is this my imagination or are there regional Australian accents?
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2014, 01:56:02 pm »
Stumbled upon this picture when searched google for 'Tagarno'.  Apparently it brings peace and love to the workplace.  Two thumbs up!


Drain the swamp.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2014, 03:56:34 pm »
He is a certified fitness instructor as well........ ;)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2014, 04:58:45 pm »
Question for Dave ... your wife has - to my ears - a different accent than you do. Is this my imagination or are there regional Australian accents?

There are many different Australian accents, hers is pretty normal. Although in that video I teased her that she spoke with a rather posh English accent at the end of the sentence. She was probably trying to "act".
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Weight Lift
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2014, 05:04:42 pm »
You really got muscles, Dave.

It's only 19kg or so.
This is muscle Dave:
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2014, 05:05:22 pm »
Stumbled upon this picture when searched google for 'Tagarno'.  Apparently it brings peace and love to the workplace.

They look so happy together!
 

Offline Dingo

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2014, 03:18:06 am »
Hi Dave - So with this ESD mat did you actually ground the conductive side somewhere?  If so how - to mains earth?

Does grounding it really matter? I figure that 6 metres times 50k ohms/cm means a resistance around 30 Mega ohms end to end - wood can be a good insulator if dried so your ESD mat itself could store some charge. Damp wood can have a resistance as low as a few kilo ohms/metre, but in your lab I'd guess its dry and dehumidified so could be as high as many Giga ohms...

Thoughts?  What's best practice and practical experience?

Richard
 

Offline lewis

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2014, 06:03:20 am »
ESD mats are grounded to mains earth, usually through a 1M resistor. A little stud like this http://pcvalet.co.uk/UsedImages/ThickBox_pcvalet-anti-static-mat-stud-connectors.jpg is usually crimped into the mat, and is connected to mains earth though a specialised wall plug.
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Offline GiskardReventlov

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2014, 06:58:00 am »
The bench looks great!  Send out a photo or get a video shot of it once in a while as you tweak it.

That tagarno looks well made. Probably lots of $$$.
 

Offline Dave Turner

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2014, 07:07:13 am »
A thought, is there any advice on how many square metres a single ground point will be sufficient for this type of mat? Or is a single point sufficient no matter the size of the mat? I would think that there must be some limit.
 

Offline linux-works

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2014, 07:13:01 am »
I was asking that, too.  seems  that if its high R, you'd want frequent snaps on the mat so that you can keep it well grounded at every quadrant.  I have not seen this done before but would it be such a bad idea?

it looks like you can buy (and install) those 'star snaps' but if its not worth the effort, that's cool.  otoh, if there is some benefit to having them every 'n' inches, it would be nice to know.  I ordered a 72" long mat (that fits my existing table perfectly; 30x72) and that seems like a long distance to have only 1 ground point.
 

Offline Dave Turner

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2014, 08:26:23 am »
Another point to consider is one's wrist strap connection(s).  Where should they be relative to the mat's earth point.

I note that Dave has under bench points for earthing and wrist straps. This makes sense as one would prefer to avoid connectors on the mat where tear-out/friction might occur whilst moving or dragging kit around.

With a small bench, like mine, this is all practically irrelevant but if one is fortunate enough to work on large benches where should the line be drawn?

I confess that I worked for many years both in the field and in the lab without using mats or wrist-straps and never fried anything due to static. That is because I always ensured that I was discharged and maintained a connection with a mutual earth with the DUT. Even to the extent of wrapping a toe round a radiator (before plastic plumbing).

Even with good earthing and my nice new mat I doubt that I shall change my old style safety habits which have become ingrained. Of course HV safety is different!
 
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2014, 08:38:50 am »
He is a certified fitness instructor as well........ ;)

And expert in online dating...

http://www.artofinternetdating.com/
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Offline linux-works

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2014, 08:43:05 am »
given how star grounding works, I would assume (correct me if wrong) that the mat would be grounded to a point of ground that is a central location.  that same location would also feed the wire for the 'console' dual banana jack outlet.  that way, they are not directly connected 'away' from ground but they are more local to the ground and to flow from wrist strap to the mat would mean 2x the travel.

daisy chaining grounds is always a no-no with me, so I would centrally locate the wires from the banana jack console and the wire from the mat.

 

Offline Kempy

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2014, 09:40:31 am »
How about this idea?:

Cut the old esd mat into squares and sell it off on eBay as EEVblog souvenirs  ;D
 

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2014, 10:17:18 am »
ESD mats are grounded to mains earth, usually through a 1M resistor. A little stud like this http://pcvalet.co.uk/UsedImages/ThickBox_pcvalet-anti-static-mat-stud-connectors.jpg is usually crimped into the mat, and is connected to mains earth though a specialised wall plug.

My common ground point cord has a banana plug on the end.  I went to home depot and bought a standard 3 prong plug, removed the hot and neutral pins and I soldered a low profile banana jack to the ground pin.  the rubber boot around the plug holds the jack in place and it plugs normally into a grounded wall outlet.  Works a beauty ;D
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Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2014, 05:13:20 pm »
Stumbled upon this picture when searched google for 'Tagarno'.  Apparently it brings peace and love to the workplace.  Two thumbs up!



They are so happy because apparently Tagarno corrects angled shots on the fly! Buildin photoshop and image stabilization :o :D


Cant wait for Tagarno review, hopefully along with that crappy chinese USB scope and HK M$ lifecam one for comparison.
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Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2014, 05:16:09 pm »
Cant wait for Tagarno review, hopefully along with that crappy chinese USB scope and HK M$ lifecam one for comparison.

"What if" the cheap Chinese MS WebCam + Lens mod job result is comparable to the $$$$ Tagarno ?  >:D

Offline linux-works

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2014, 05:37:38 pm »
then, those two 'happy-guys' won't be so happy anymore?

(grin)
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2014, 05:52:41 pm »
then, those two 'happy-guys' won't be so happy anymore?

(grin)

Geez... why so negative, you're wrong, all will be happy since both will have one each of the Chinese knock-off, no more fighting whenever they need it at the same time. Also there will be a 3rd guy, happy too, since he is their boss and apparently he got his money back by returning the Tagarno and saved plenty of bucks.  :-DD
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 05:56:09 pm by BravoV »
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2014, 11:22:17 pm »
Cant wait for Tagarno review, hopefully along with that crappy chinese USB scope and HK M$ lifecam one for comparison.

"What if" the cheap Chinese MS WebCam + Lens mod job result is comparable to the $$$$ Tagarno ?  >:D

It could in theory be comparable in that one (fixed focus) position with enough light hitting the object, and I sure hope it will :)
But it still wont be a substitute. Hdmi out and zoom/focus control (probably also autofocus) means comfy standalone work without mucking around with a computer and trying to get your thingie in position. Still those are sacrifices I can make for ~$3K :D
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Offline mikepa

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2014, 11:56:45 pm »
Dave,

How many power circuits do you have for your bench?  In the US we have 20A 120V outlets giving 2400W - what do you have in Oz?
 

Offline moemoe

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2014, 02:24:04 am »
How many power circuits do you have for your bench?  In the US we have 20A 120V outlets giving 2400W - what do you have in Oz?

As their plug is rated for 10A, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112 they probably have 2,3kW available.
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Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2014, 06:57:31 am »
How many power circuits do you have for your bench?  In the US we have 20A 120V outlets giving 2400W - what do you have in Oz?

As their plug is rated for 10A, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112 they probably have 2,3kW available.

Australian voltage is 240 ;)
And It's quite possible that Dave has two power outlet circuits in the room, so two 10amp circuits.
 

Offline moemoe

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Australian voltage is 240 ;)
And It's quite possible that Dave has two power outlet circuits in the room, so two 10amp circuits.

Then, go and correct the above Wikipedia article: "A standard power outlet in Australia provides a nominal voltage of 230 volts at a maximum of 10 amps and always includes an earth connection." :)
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2014, 09:46:23 am »
Australian voltage is 240 ;)

It's 230V officially. Still 240V in many areas like my lab and home.
 

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2014, 09:50:30 am »
How many power circuits do you have for your bench?  In the US we have 20A 120V outlets giving 2400W - what do you have in Oz?

I have a total of 3 x 4 outlet power points along that wall, with 4 x 6way power boards plugged into each one. The total available current for that half of the lab (and hence all outlets combined across the whole banch) is fused at 20A total. The other side of my lab has a separate 20A circuit.
 

Online David_AVD

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2014, 11:06:29 am »
We have 4 benches in a line at work fed from a 32A breaker in the switchboard.  Each bench has a 20A RCD/MCB that feeds 5 double GPOs; 2 on front edge (for heat gun and items under test), 1 underneath (for soldering iron, etc), 1 at rear (for test gear) and 1 above (for test gear via power boards).

The computers (one per bench) are fed from a single large UPS that is independent of the bench power.  Other side of the room has a bench with 20A supply (with 3 double GPOs) and 32A 3-phase for testing lighting equipment.

Each bench has a low average power requirement, so the 32A overall limit (~ 7.5KW) is not an issue.  If we need something more for a specific job, we can plug in a 3-phase distribution board (mix of 10A and 15A sockets) to pull about another 23KW from the 3-phase socket.

Having independent breakers (and RCDs) is very useful in a test / development environment.  Not as easy to do if your benches are free standing and you like to rearrange things from time to time of course!
 

Offline darko31

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2014, 10:32:02 pm »
Regarding the lab PC, it would be somewhat cheaper using a small form factor desktop PC than a high end laptop. You already have tons of monitors, an mini ITX based case and motherboard could support any CPU.
 

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2014, 11:20:23 pm »
How many power circuits do you have for your bench?  In the US we have 20A 120V outlets giving 2400W - what do you have in Oz?

I have a total of 3 x 4 outlet power points along that wall, with 4 x 6way power boards plugged into each one. The total available current for that half of the lab (and hence all outlets combined across the whole banch) is fused at 20A total. The other side of my lab has a separate 20A circuit.

Interesting, so each circuit from the distribution panel can handle 20A @ 230V.  Can you get that out of one socket for a tool that needs a lot of power (such as a large (3HP) table saw)?  In the US we also have 220V 20A outlets for power tools and stoves (cookers).
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2014, 11:22:28 pm »
Australian voltage is 240 ;)

It's 230V officially. Still 240V in many areas like my lab and home.

Correct. AS60038 - 2000 states a nominal of 230V.

http://www.ausgrid.com.au/Common/Our-network/Standards-and-Guidelines/~/media/Files/Network/Documents/ES/ENOS_Oct2011.pdf

My place is about 255 to 258V... it is quite high. It went high when some electricity distribution company installed a new step down transformer at the end of the street. The high voltage has not caused any problems, although I do wonder if any of my equipment might have a shortened lifespan. Years ago I would have worried, but not so much now we can get cheap replacements made by exploited Chinese workers.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2014, 11:26:11 pm »
Regarding the lab PC, it would be somewhat cheaper using a small form factor desktop PC than a high end laptop.support any CPU.

The Targarno doesn't work on my laptop anyway I found out. Nor does it work on my high end video editing desktop. Something is horrible wrong with the setup...
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2014, 11:31:10 pm »
Interesting, so each circuit from the distribution panel can handle 20A @ 230V.  Can you get that out of one socket for a tool that needs a lot of power (such as a large (3HP) table saw)?

No. Standard power points here are rated at 10A (2400W). With usually 15A capable wiring and a 15A breaker per circuit (mine has 20A breakers). You can get 15A outlets that have a physically larger earth pin, so the cable can't be accidentally plugged into a 10A outlet. There are additional legal wiring requirements for those 15A outlets.
You can have as many points as you want hanging off your one 15A/20A capable circuit, but no more than 10A per outlet, and a total power of that 15A obviously.
 

Offline GiskardReventlov

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2014, 04:41:00 pm »
The Targarno doesn't work on my laptop anyway I found out. Nor does it work on my high end video editing desktop. Something is horrible wrong with the setup...

Defective unit?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2014, 07:08:07 pm »
Tagarno say it's my video card at fault, it's not powerful enough. It's GTX650. And my upgraded laptop didn't have a chance in hell. They recommend a Radeon HD785 at a minimum.
This means I need to buy an entirely new i7 desktop for the lab, that's gonna cost $$$.
They also claim the BlackMagic HDMI encoding box doesn't cut the mustard either.
Strangely they claim a laptop with a GeForce GT 740M works a treat.
http://www.tagarno.com/sites/default/files/files/recommended_minimum_system_requirement_software_magnus_fhd_zip.pdf
 

Offline linux-works

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2014, 07:16:25 pm »
any 'camera' that needs an i7 is not one that I would spend money on.

I never heard of such a thing!  HD video never needs an i7.  the video card does all the heavy lifting.  what the hell?!  this isn't 10 years ago.   even a fanless cheap video card can do HD video without breaking a sweat.

something does not make sense to me, here.
 

Offline moemoe

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2014, 07:35:32 pm »
It's strange that they give an 'Graphics integrated: Intel® HD Graphics 4000' as sufficient, but as soon as using an external card, they want something much more powerful. And with USB3 supporting DMA CPU speed shouldn't be such a big issue.

Any ideads what video codec they are using? As every compression adds lag, I could imagine they use MJPEG or some other codec without any interframe compression.
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Offline hans

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2014, 07:42:50 pm »
What do they specify those ratings for? For recording video?

I can sort of see why they specify a mid-end gaming graphics card for this, as video encoding is something different to video decoding (which any GPU can do). If you would want to do on-the-fly video compressing I could see how things get very slow. Compare the rendering time of a Full HD video to the video length, if that ratio is greater than 1, your render takes long than the footage, and is not able to keep up. Especially at 60Hz, which means you need double the power.

However, streaming video data is something about the USB3.0 support/capability and writing it to a harddrive. That has nothing to do with GPU or even CPU, much more with support and how the software handles it.
I have recorded triple-screen (3840x1024, 30fps, audio, raw) footage whilst running a game (which loads the GPU up completely), and I could only stream that footage to a memdisk. Luckily my machine has 16GB of RAM, so I reserved 12GB as a streamdisk. I could record very very short segments (2 minutes top), but it did work.
I am not sure how fast that stream was, but probably in the order of 100MB/s. My mechanical drives top out at around 100MB/s, but soon dropoff to 60 MB/s. A modern SSD, with huge write speeds, should be able to handle that.
(note: not any SSD though, my 3 year old OCZ Vertex 2 has a sequential write speed of 60MB/s maximum - a bit more if the data is very compressible).

IMHO if their camera requires you to get a i7 and gaming GPU, they better be paying for that machine as well. Because it's out of this world you need such a machine for what is in essence a USB3.0 Full HD webcam.

Maybe hacking a HDMI Ethernet Extender instead is an option: http://hackaday.com/2014/01/25/reverse-engineering-an-hdmi-extender/
That box encodes frames to JPEG and multicasts them over UDP on the network. You can easily join as a PC (if you reverse engineer the ethernet stream to ofcourse..) on that UDP multicast group and sniff the image data. Then it's probably a little tweaking to stream the images together to a videostream and overlay a (good) audio source.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 07:49:04 pm by hans »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2014, 08:31:52 pm »
It's strange that they give an 'Graphics integrated: Intel® HD Graphics 4000' as sufficient

That minimum figure is not for recording. My desktop works fine when just viewing the video (when it's not locking up), but when you hit record it just crawls or simply doesn't work. So it's not a USB 3.0 nor an actual video display issue.

Quote
Any ideads what video codec they are using? As every compression adds lag, I could imagine they use MJPEG or some other codec without any interframe compression.

It's just a generic webcam driver interface I believe.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2014, 08:36:24 pm »
I can sort of see why they specify a mid-end gaming graphics card for this, as video encoding is something different to video decoding (which any GPU can do). If you would want to do on-the-fly video compressing I could see how things get very slow. Compare the rendering time of a Full HD video to the video length, if that ratio is greater than 1, your render takes long than the footage, and is not able to keep up. Especially at 60Hz, which means you need double the power.

Yep, that's clearly what's happening here.

Quote
However, streaming video data is something about the USB3.0 support/capability and writing it to a harddrive. That has nothing to do with GPU or even CPU, much more with support and how the software handles it.

I wonder if there is a way to just stream the USB 3.0 video straight to disk without having to display it?

Quote
IMHO if their camera requires you to get a i7 and gaming GPU, they better be paying for that machine as well. Because it's out of this world you need such a machine for what is in essence a USB3.0 Full HD webcam.

That's essentially what it is. Just a full HD webcam and appears as such to any capture program. There is not even an option to lower the resolution, I'd be happy with 1280x720x25fps.
It's essentially the 30x optics I'm after here and the big working distance.

 

Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2014, 08:37:21 pm »
Just fyi the Microsoft Life Cam studio specification that is used in the other cheap China microscope  :

720p HD recording ( Sensor Resolution: 1920 X 1080 )
• Intel Dual-Core 3.0 GHz or higher 
• 2 GB of RAM
• 1.5 GB hard drive space
• Display adapter capable of 16-bit color depth or higher
• 2 MB or higher video memory
• Windows-compatible speakers or headphones
• USB 2.0

Offline rollatorwieltje

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2014, 08:49:20 pm »
Can't you specify the codec for the recording? Tools like Fraps (desktop recording, used often for games) record in some "almost raw" format. It takes massive amounts of disk space and a dedicated fast drive, but in general the performance hit on the PC is tolerable. I have everything installed on a SSD and use my old WD Black disks in raid 0 as recording destination.
 

Offline moemoe

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2014, 03:31:25 am »
I wonder if there is a way to just stream the USB 3.0 video straight to disk without having to display it?

That's what I thought there software would do and therefore was wondering about these system requirements. Just recieving bits via DMA and writing them onto disk via DMA shouldn't need too many resources, as the CPU or GPU is nearly not involved in any part of this process.

I'd try VirtualDub (http://www.virtualdub.org/), as it can capture from any VFW compliant device, and seems to be able to save the raw data.

Start the program, Video->Direct Stream Copy, Audio->Direct Stream Copy, File->Capture AVI, "F2" Select capture device, "P" Toggle Video Preview, "F2" Set capture file, Set Framerate in bottom Toolbar, "C" No recompression, "F5" Start Capture.
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Offline linux-works

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #84 on: March 07, 2014, 03:57:08 am »
It's essentially the 30x optics I'm after here and the big working distance.

digital slr cameras are cheap, kits lenses are cheap and you can get any zoom you want.  modern slr's have video out, mostly for setting up the shot and playback, but there's no reason you could not use an slr or bridge camera and just use its optics and sensor to send video to your pc.  and you'd get top notch optics, that way.  if you ruin the lens, a kit lens with zoom is $100 or less so its not a huge deal.  they take filters (so you can protect your front element) and even add achromats for some serious close-up macro work.

there are heavy duty tripods (that are not large) and can take horizontal beams instead of vertical posts and that way you could have the tripod mounted far back toward the end of the bench and be able to move the camera, pointing down, with lots of degrees of freedom.

 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2014, 05:01:30 am »
See if ShadowPlay can record the displayed video.
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2014, 07:47:57 am »
Australian voltage is 240 ;)

It's 230V officially. Still 240V in many areas like my lab and home.

This makes me sad :(

I did some searching, and apparently it was 240volts before 1980 :P

eh, it'll always be 240volt to me!
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #87 on: March 07, 2014, 09:02:16 am »
Tagarno say it's my video card at fault, it's not powerful enough. It's GTX650. And my upgraded laptop didn't have a chance in hell. They recommend a Radeon HD785 at a minimum.
.....
but when you hit record it just crawls or simply doesn't work.

GTX650 does indeed support hardware h.264 encoding. Most likely their software doesnt pick it up.

They also claim the BlackMagic HDMI encoding box doesn't cut the mustard either.

Does not compute, or do they mean their HDMI output is non standard?

I wonder if there is a way to just stream the USB 3.0 video straight to disk without having to display it?

https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/DirectShow

"-vcodec copy"

and no, you dont need to be a penguin to use it :)
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Offline dr.diesel

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2014, 09:14:48 am »
eh, it'll always be 240volt to me!

Reminds me of:



Ha ha,  :-DD

Offline GiskardReventlov

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #89 on: March 07, 2014, 09:24:14 am »
This means I need to buy an entirely new i7 desktop for the lab, that's gonna cost $$$.

I hate when I have to buy a new something because my other new something depends on it.
Okay not always, sometimes it can be a good excuse, er, I mean, reason, to upgrade.

This does sound wrong. But I don't keep up on graphic card specs and I'm sure Tagarno do.


Quote
They also claim the BlackMagic HDMI encoding box doesn't cut the mustard either.
You have this device? I would contact them, they might have some advice.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #90 on: March 07, 2014, 09:28:19 am »
They also claim the BlackMagic HDMI encoding box doesn't cut the mustard either.
Does not compute, or do they mean their HDMI output is non standard?

I presume that it couldn't support the full 60P output rate.
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #91 on: March 07, 2014, 05:30:33 pm »
any suggestions on where to get good quality (yet still affordable) mats here in the US?

I looked at amazon but can't be sure if this is junk or good stuff, there.  mostly I see vinyl junk.  I'm looking for the solder-resistant blue top surface and rubber backing.  I'll probably need 6' by 30" (size of a typical folding table that you find at office supply stores).
Couple of places ATM.

There's a seller based in Canada on eBay I've bought from before. Good quality mat (heavy @  .080"), and options (smooth v. textured, 2 layer or 3 layer, ...). Here's the current listings for 30"x72" mats. Lots of other sizes should you need them, and he'll also do custom sizes.

All-Spec has a 30"x72" @ 0.080" thick 2 layer kit (light blue in pic, color is stated as blue) mat for $68.70 including residential shipping ticking in my ZIP. Only 2 in stock, so get it quick. Slightly less expensive than the eBay seller, but at regular prices, the eBay seller is usually the way to go IMHO. Actually have a slightly smaller one (bit thinner too @ 0.060") tomorrow for a second bench table I'm building this weekend.

Hope these help. :)

 

Offline linux-works

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #92 on: March 08, 2014, 02:34:42 am »
I ordered a 30x72 blue mat from 'canada' (niagara falls!  slowly, I turned...)

fedex ground says it should be here tomorrow.  that's just about a week in the mail.  sounds good to me.  for about $70 or so, shipped (roughly).
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #93 on: March 08, 2014, 04:39:01 am »
I ordered a 30x72 blue mat from 'canada' (niagara falls!  slowly, I turned...)

fedex ground says it should be here tomorrow.  that's just about a week in the mail.  sounds good to me.  for about $70 or so, shipped (roughly).
Mine came in quick from that seller as well. Been very happy with mine, so I don't expect you'll be disappointed.  :)

Enjoy.  8)
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #94 on: March 08, 2014, 08:01:26 am »
I did some searching, and apparently it was 240volts before 1980 :P

eh, it'll always be 240volt to me!

It's 251 for me!

That's getting pretty close to out of spec... should be 230v, +10%, -6% from what I read...

This makes me wonder how the power meters work now... the one in the fuse box...
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #95 on: March 13, 2014, 07:09:12 pm »
I'll order a new desktop PC tomorrow dedicated for this, no other choice really, going to cost about $850 or so.
i7 7440 with HD4600 graphics
8GB DDR3
Thermaltake Versa H22 case with silent fan PSU
Coolermaster 412 slim CPU cooler
Gigabyte GA-B85M0-HD3 MB with USB 3.0
I have a HD7850 graphics card as backup is the HD4600 integrated graphics with quicksync doesn't work.
Should be pretty quiet which is essential when it's mounted right under the bench while shooting video.
And it meets their specification:
http://www.tagarno.com/sites/default/files/files/recommended_minimum_system_requirement_software_magnus_fhd_zip.pdf
If it doesn't work I'm going to be a bit pissed...
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #96 on: March 13, 2014, 07:50:30 pm »
Hold the presses, someone on Twitter pointed out the Intel NUC:
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/nuc/nuc-kit-d54250wykh.html

Has the even more powerful HD5000 graphics with quicksync, optimised for video encoding.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7072/intel-hd-5000-vs-hd-4000-vs-hd-4400
This looks like an ideal box to mate with the Tagarno microscope
The HD4000 graphics on my i3770 home desktop work, if a little buggy, so this HD5000 should certainly do the business? No option for a graphics card if it doesn't though, but it's compact and presumably pretty silent.
Comments?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #97 on: March 13, 2014, 08:56:05 pm »
The Gigabyte Brix Pro looks even better:
http://www.anandtech.com/print/7648/gigabyte-brix-pro
 

Offline hans

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #98 on: March 13, 2014, 10:17:49 pm »
I guess the HD5000 will do the same trick as the HD4000 can. It doesn't really depend if you get an i3 or i7 , the GPU/QuickSync HW does the encoding, so it should.
But as I read you also got yourself a HD7850 and that one didn't work neither.. I'm guessing it will all be part of the review ?  :box:

I can think of a few up & down sides for small PC's. Upside: compact, light, energy efficient HW so probably also cool (& quiet ? unless they use 40mm fans, ofcourse).
Downside: no upgradable CPU, no option for dedicated GPU, most of them can't handle 2.5" drives (You need one of those mSATA SSD's, Crucial & Samsung make versions of their mainstream SSD's) and limited amount of ports.

I do think a Intel i5 or i7 with the U-suffix (Ultrabook?) is sufficient for most workbench work. I can imagine aside from video capture , you would probably do stuff like looking up datasheets, viewing CAD work (always nice to know what to probe) and running some firmware debugger tools.
However keep in mind the other i7 (desktop model) has way more raw horsepower, but it can also be gross overkill if the only thing you do is internet & programming.
 

Offline lewis

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #99 on: March 13, 2014, 11:15:26 pm »
Or there's one of these: http://www.fit-pc.com/web/products/ipc2/

Absolutely tiny, silent, and awesome. Reassuringly expensive too.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #100 on: March 13, 2014, 11:21:18 pm »
But as I read you also got yourself a HD7850 and that one didn't work neither..

The drivers wouldn't install, so haven't actually tried it yet.
It does 1080P 6-fps video encoding in hardware, so yeah, should work.

Quote
I can imagine aside from video capture , you would probably do stuff like looking up datasheets, viewing CAD work (always nice to know what to probe) and running some firmware debugger tools.
However keep in mind the other i7 (desktop model) has way more raw horsepower, but it can also be gross overkill if the only thing you do is internet & programming.

Any machine will handle all the everyday tasks on a bench, so this machine needs to do one thing only, encode 1080P 60fps video to MP4 from USB 3.0 + audio.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #101 on: March 14, 2014, 12:01:25 am »
Where are you at trying to sort this out? Was that message you posted on Twitter referring to another instance of the AMD install or were you running some other install/upgrade at the same time? I have seen similar messages when trying several upgrades simultaneously.
Tell me you can be sure it isn't something stupid like inadvertently click starting the install when it was scripted to automatically start.

Yes, I can be sure. I even learned how to go into Windows services and disable the currently installing flag, uninstalled video drivers and rebooted countless times and it still didn't work, got the same stupid install error message using both by the disk that came with the card and also the latest downloaded version.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #102 on: March 14, 2014, 11:56:36 am »
Well, I assume there isn't a rash of reports about this on their support site. In which case it seems probable that something peculiar to your system is at the root of it.

Yes, very likely, but I'm not going to nuke my machine to fix it. I think I've done as much as I can without nuking it.

Quote
I hate to see you spend heaps of money on a new machine just as I would hate it if it was my money.

There is no option, I have to spend money to buy a new machine. The only machine powerful enough (which I'm talking about with this driver issue) is my home video editing machine. It's not a machine I can actually use in the lab, I was just testing it on there to see what the true requirements were for a new machine.

Targarno don't seem to know what's truly going on in terms of requirements and which ones matter and why, they just specify some basics and say it must meet that as that's what they have tried and that's what happens to work.
I've already discovered that the HD4000 quicksync is probably enough, and is supported by their recommended Youcam 6 software.
IMO they should investigate the NUC platform and the INtel Gen 3 HD cores thoroughly, as this provides a more tightly specific platform spec, and also one that can be physically mounted on the back VESA mount of the required monitor - much more professional.
As it stands at the moment they wouldn't back the NUC solution, as they haven't tried it, and have no clue if it will work. My research so far shows that it should.
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #103 on: March 14, 2014, 02:42:59 pm »
I'll order a new desktop PC tomorrow dedicated for this, no other choice really, going to cost about $850 or so.

This is starting to be a little retarded.
Uncompressed 1080p 60Hz is ~500MB/s so I highly doubt they are doing it raw. Cant they just give you proper drive and capture program? There is zero need to recompress the stream again. Video is probably something around 50Mbit/s max.

have you tried my link?
https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/DirectShow

"-vcodec copy"
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #104 on: March 14, 2014, 03:01:39 pm »
This is starting to be a little retarded.
Uncompressed 1080p 60Hz is ~500MB/s so I highly doubt they are doing it raw. Cant they just give you proper drive and capture program?

They simply say to use Youcam 6, that's it, that's all they know.

Quote
have you tried my link?
https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/DirectShow
"-vcodec copy"

Will that mix in audio from a USB mic too? Without that ability, it's useless.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #105 on: March 14, 2014, 03:16:18 pm »
Quote
have you tried my link?
https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/DirectShow
"-vcodec copy"

Will that mix in audio from a USB mic too? Without that ability, it's useless.

Easily, yes. Or any other audio source up to and including a prerecorded file.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #106 on: March 14, 2014, 03:19:20 pm »
I tried ffmpeg and it shows the device has a format of yuyv422 1920x1080 @ 59.9402fps
When trying to record using the example command:
ffmpeg -f dshow -i video="Integrated Camera" out.mp4
It says dshow is not a valid format.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #107 on: March 14, 2014, 03:31:18 pm »
Did you try -vcodec copy, as suggested?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #108 on: March 14, 2014, 03:33:10 pm »
Did you try -vcodec copy, as suggested?

Yep, didn't work. "unknown decoder copy"
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #109 on: March 14, 2014, 03:52:13 pm »
Did you try -vcodec copy, as suggested?

Yep, didn't work. "unknown decoder copy"

That is probably bad syntax. Does this thing really enumerate as 'Integrated Camera'?

ffmpeg -f dshow -vcodec copy -i "device name" out.mp4 (whether mp4 is a valid container remains to be seen)

If this fails please paste the entire output of ffmpeg -f dshow -list_options true -i video="device name"
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #110 on: March 14, 2014, 04:19:09 pm »
That is probably bad syntax. Does this thing really enumerate as 'Integrated Camera'?

I am using the correct ID identifier as returned by ffmpeg, which also works with other commands.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #111 on: March 14, 2014, 04:28:40 pm »
That is probably bad syntax. Does this thing really enumerate as 'Integrated Camera'?

I am using the correct ID identifier as returned by ffmpeg, which also works with other commands.

Right. I'd still like to see the full output so I have a better idea of what I'm looking at.

It is amazingly hard to troubleshoot things otherwise, especially when the last time you used the tool was four years ago on a more consistent platform.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #112 on: March 14, 2014, 04:35:09 pm »
Wow ... looking at Dave's struggling "just for recording", the Tagarno HD Microscope looking more like a fail product.  :--

Probably they're good and experienced at optical technology, while sucks big time at the electronics part.  :palm:

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #113 on: March 14, 2014, 04:37:53 pm »
Wow ... looking at Dave's struggling "just for recording", the Tagarno HD Microscope looking more like a fail product.  :--

You'd have the exact same problem with any 1920x1080x60fps USB3 video source
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #114 on: March 14, 2014, 04:40:05 pm »
Wow ... looking at Dave's struggling "just for recording", the Tagarno HD Microscope looking more like a fail product.  :--

You'd have the exact same problem with any 1920x1080x60fps USB3 video source

No Dave, business sense talking here, not technicality, with that price tag, one should expect it works out of the box, no matter how proprietary hard & software they implemented in there.

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #115 on: March 14, 2014, 04:48:49 pm »
No Dave, business sense talking here, not technicality, with that price tag, one should expect it works out of the box, no matter how proprietary hard & software they implemented in there.

Is does work out of the box, plug monitor in and it works.
As for recording the video output Targarno have no control what PC you buy and use with it, they have a recommendation sheet about what specs you need.
I can go buy a $1000 and that meets the specs and it will work.
There is nothing proprietary in there, it is simply a high end sony camera that acts as USB 3.0 webcam at a fixed 1920x1080 @ 60fps camera. Capturign and encoding that in real-time takes a lot of grunt.
My issue is that I don't think they really understand their recommendations and why they chose them.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 04:51:58 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #116 on: March 14, 2014, 05:02:15 pm »
My issue is that I don't think they really understand their recommendations and why they chose them.

Aha ... its clear now, so this product is not designed and thought "carefully" before hand by Tagarno them self to be used for recording.

Say for potential customers that are looking for view + record capabilities, like for instructors or presenter that has to show it live + record the material, I think these crowd should skip Tagarno product until they the maker them self really know clearly how to do that properly.  ::)

Offline moemoe

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #117 on: March 14, 2014, 07:24:58 pm »
Will that mix in audio from a USB mic too? Without that ability, it's useless.

The proposed virtualdub can do this. Did you try it? Didn't read anything about it.
https://github.com/maugsburger/
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #118 on: March 14, 2014, 07:47:39 pm »
Aha ... its clear now, so this product is not designed and thought "carefully" before hand by Tagarno them self to be used for recording.

No, they just simply used a high powered machine and it worked, so bingo, that's what they specify.

Quote
Say for potential customers that are looking for view + record capabilities, like for instructors or presenter that has to show it live + record the material, I think these crowd should skip Tagarno product until they the maker them self really know clearly how to do that properly.  ::)

No, just get a high end machine that meets their specification, simple.
I could just do that (and that's what they recommend) but I think it's better to understand WHY you need a certain spec, and I would like to use a small NUC style PC, not just some huge thumping gaming desktop machine.

Let's be clear, there is nothing wrong with the Tagarno product, I'm just being an anal retentive trying to figure stuff out instead of spending big $$$$ and be done with it.
 

Offline hans

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #119 on: March 14, 2014, 08:49:29 pm »
Have you ask Tagarno whether Intel QuickSync is also supported? It just happened it work on your desktop, but if they explicitly say "yes that works too", then go ahead and get any mini PC with Intel QS.

I really think, if they would still specify a gaming graphics card it's a bit lunatic. We rant on about soft power buttons on scopes and they consume a couple of Watts when "off", but I think this is not far off from the same category of "overkill" / they haven't really thought this through.

Also a little comment on my previous post about the Gigabyte BRIX: I see there are several versions from really compact (no 2.5") to a bit bigger with 2.5" and even a i7 4770R + Intel Iris Pro graphics (but according to reviews quite power hungry/noisy machine).
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #120 on: March 14, 2014, 09:19:43 pm »
Have you ask Tagarno whether Intel QuickSync is also supported?

Once again, to clarify, Targno don't have any software, the camera simply appears as a regular HD webcam, so it's up to whatever capture software you use to support QuickSync.
And yes, their recommended Youcam 6 software does support QuickSync, but it seems they didn't know that until I pointed it out to them. They also don't appear to know how well QuickSync works with their product, they can't tell me and hence can't recommend it because they haven't tried it.

Quote
I really think, if they would still specify a gaming graphics card it's a bit lunatic. We rant on about soft power buttons on scopes and they consume a couple of Watts when "off", but I think this is not far off from the same category of "overkill" / they haven't really thought this through.

Yes, I'm of the same opinion, hence why I'm being a bit of PITA about it.
I've recommended to them that they help me investigate the NUC type solutions with QuickSync, and that will help both me and their them and their customers.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #121 on: March 15, 2014, 12:24:46 am »
Is does work out of the box, plug monitor in and it works.
As for recording the video output Targarno have no control what PC you buy and use with it, they have a recommendation sheet about what specs you need.
I can go buy a $1000 and that meets the specs and it will work.
There is nothing proprietary in there, it is simply a high end sony camera that acts as USB 3.0 webcam at a fixed 1920x1080 @ 60fps camera. Capturign and encoding that in real-time takes a lot of grunt.
My issue is that I don't think they really understand their recommendations and why they chose them.
A HDMI capture card for the HDMI output of the microscope might be easier and cheaper, if the capture device has integrated H.264 compression. And could be used for other purposes as well.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #122 on: March 15, 2014, 11:51:41 am »
They simply say to use Youcam 6, that's it, that's all they know.

Well this right there should be the end of the review, useless $3K of hardware because support is clueless. Maybe tweet them into shame?

I tried ffmpeg and it shows the device has a format of yuyv422 1920x1080 @ 59.9402fps
When trying to record using the example command:
ffmpeg -f dshow -i video="Integrated Camera" out.mp4
It says dshow is not a valid format.

arghh Dave, full output?

That is probably bad syntax. Does this thing really enumerate as 'Integrated Camera'?

I am using the correct ID identifier as returned by ffmpeg, which also works with other commands.

Right. I'd still like to see the full output so I have a better idea of what I'm looking at.

It is amazingly hard to troubleshoot things otherwise, especially when the last time you used the tool was four years ago on a more consistent platform.

this!! Dave is terrible at helping him troubleshoot because he knows a little about computers :)
There are 3 types of people when you  try to help someone with technical problem
1 complete boobs, they will tell you about cup holder not reading DVDs, ask where any key is, but they will also do everything you ask them to including opening remote desktop session.
3 BOFHs, they might annoy you, but they know whats wrong on their end and usually only ask really tough questions that lead to a fix
2 people in the middle, they will tell you 'they already did that', or 'no way this is going to work so im not gonna bother'
Dave is 2 :D

Dave,  copy pasta is your friend, you made a typo.
>This is not a bug. Placement of options is important. Anything before an "-i" is considered an input option, so ffmpeg is attempting to
>apply "-vcodec copy -acodec copy -scodec xsub" to the decoder of your input which is why you get the message, "Unknown decoder
>'copy'". Move appropriate options before your output if you want them applied to the output.


yuyv422 1920x1080 @ 59.9402fps is ~250MB/s
But for starters you dont need to capture 60Hz, its not like YT supports it, so you can capture 30Hz. even laptop will have no trouble  encoding that on the fly.
Is yuyv422  the only output available?
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Offline linux-works

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #123 on: March 16, 2014, 02:37:22 pm »
my magnifier is this kind of thing:



and I love the fact that if I solder underneath it, this glass is between the object and me (and my eyes!).  the safety factor really convinced me, and of course, its a magnifier as well.

but all the talk of having an lcd display up on the bench, on a shelf, and a camera that can show a real close-up of what you are doing - that does sound appealing to me.

I have some spare superzoom bridge cameras (that are great for macros and don't have to be right on top of the object) and the older ones have a simple composite video out.  you don't even need a pc for that; you can send the 'yellow coax' directly to most video displays.  mount the camera on a tripod or an enlarger base (remember those?) and you're in business.  I might have to try this.
 

Offline linux-works

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #124 on: March 16, 2014, 02:43:15 pm »
report on the matting I bought from ebay:

I chose this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281221031337

and have been quite pleased with it.  the seller has been great, too; one of the devices (the banana plug box) was damaged slightly in shipping and they sent me a new one with no hassle at all.

thumbs up for this product and seller.

btw, the blue is a very light blue color, not at all dark.  it cheers up the workroom a bit ;)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #125 on: March 16, 2014, 02:52:38 pm »
Is yuyv422  the only output available?

According to the listing, yes.

BTW, my problem is when I ask a computer question there is always, always, 100 different "experts" who claim they know the right answer (and they are usually all different) and who aren't shy about telling me why they are right and their credentials etc. That's why I don't necessarily jump every time someone says to.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #126 on: March 16, 2014, 02:54:03 pm »
What frame rate are you wanting to record? The full 60fps or something less.

Ideally the full 60fps, because, well, I can. And it might be useful for slowmo.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #127 on: March 16, 2014, 03:03:59 pm »
Is yuyv422  the only output available?

According to the listing, yes.

BTW, my problem is when I ask a computer question there is always, always, 100 different "experts" who claim they know the right answer (and they are usually all different) and who aren't shy about telling me why they are right and their credentials etc. That's why I don't necessarily jump every time someone says to.

Meanwhile, there's a few of us with a little more experience who would like to try to help, if only you'd c+p a couple dozen lines of text..
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #128 on: March 16, 2014, 03:29:54 pm »
Meanwhile, there's a few of us with a little more experience who would like to try to help, if only you'd c+p a couple dozen lines of text..

"if only" requires that I go back to the lab and set everything up again to try it.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #129 on: March 16, 2014, 03:31:07 pm »
Meanwhile, there's a few of us with a little more experience who would like to try to help, if only you'd c+p a couple dozen lines of text..

"if only" requires that I go back to the lab and set everything up again to try it.

Well, kinda figured you were at the lab with it at the time..
 

Offline mfeinstein

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #130 on: March 20, 2014, 08:18:07 am »
Dave, I live in Brazil and I hardly have to deal with ESD problems, so forguive me if my question is stupid, but shouldn't you have something also in your lab floor to prevent your shoes from build up ESD charge? You could charge up and zap some piece of electronics sitting on the table, if you don't touch the rubber first I guess...
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #131 on: March 20, 2014, 08:36:33 am »
Dave, I live in Brazil and I hardly have to deal with ESD problems, so forguive me if my question is stupid, but shouldn't you have something also in your lab floor to prevent your shoes from build up ESD charge? You could charge up and zap some piece of electronics sitting on the table, if you don't touch the rubber first I guess...
Are you using a wrist strap as well as the mat?

I ask, as a wrist strap should discharge you before ever touching the mat or a PCB.
 

Offline Dave Turner

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #132 on: March 20, 2014, 10:48:24 am »
Forty years ago I used to wrap my socked toe around the radiator pipe and/or always kept my wrist in contact with an earthed chassis. The only time I fried anything was when I stupidly swapped Vcc & Gnd to my homebrew microprocessor board in the early 80's. Fried the Z80 I'd bought for £100 in 1974  |O
 

Offline mfeinstein

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #133 on: March 20, 2014, 11:17:53 am »
Dave, I live in Brazil and I hardly have to deal with ESD problems, so forguive me if my question is stupid, but shouldn't you have something also in your lab floor to prevent your shoes from build up ESD charge? You could charge up and zap some piece of electronics sitting on the table, if you don't touch the rubber first I guess...
Are you using a wrist strap as well as the mat?

I ask, as a wrist strap should discharge you before ever touching the mat or a PCB.

I don't use anything, really ESD in Brazil (at least here in Rio) is just not a concern for regular electronics, the air is too humid and cant build any charge in your body. I never ever fried anything due to ESD, just due to stupidity or lack of attention :P
 

Offline linux-works

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #134 on: March 20, 2014, 01:21:18 pm »
fwiw, static can degrade parts without destroying them.  and I believe its additive, too.  so while you may not notice immediate parts failures, you probably don't KNOW that you are completely safe if you ignore ESD procedures.

when things were really delicate (20+yrs ago, maybe even 30+) then you'd see immediate failures.  I remember springs being wrapped around mosfet leads and you'd solder the part down then remove the spring shorting wire.  those days are mostly over but it still pays to be safe.
 

Offline mfeinstein

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #135 on: March 20, 2014, 02:20:12 pm »
fwiw, static can degrade parts without destroying them.  and I believe its additive, too.  so while you may not notice immediate parts failures, you probably don't KNOW that you are completely safe if you ignore ESD procedures.

when things were really delicate (20+yrs ago, maybe even 30+) then you'd see immediate failures.  I remember springs being wrapped around mosfet leads and you'd solder the part down then remove the spring shorting wire.  those days are mostly over but it still pays to be safe.

Well, I know, but most my electronics stuff are just DYI projects, and prototypes, and all my tools are ESD safe or the components are ESD safe....the serious ones I usually take more precaution...but seriously, here is so humid ESD cant build up any charge, most the people I know that use ESD wrist bands just use it because it's satandard industry procedure. Thanks for the heads up anyways :)
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #136 on: March 20, 2014, 04:20:25 pm »
ESD builds up just fine in humid environments. I've seen quite a few mosfets fried that didn't seem to get the notice that it was very humid that day.
 

Offline Dave Turner

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #137 on: March 21, 2014, 06:28:27 am »
With Dave's predilection for going barefoot his ESD protection is possibly OTT anyway.
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #138 on: March 21, 2014, 07:05:10 am »
all my tools are ESD safe
ESD compliant tools still need the user attached to a resistive ground path, or the ESD aspect is useless.

FWIW, I also live in a humid climate, and still take basic precautions (mat & wrist strap).

I realize things are more expensive in Brazil than the US for example, but I would hope there are some sources that it's not prohibitively expensive (I have some Chinese made mat branded as Sierra, and it seems decent <1.5mm thick, 2 layer>). Canadian made mat I have is nicer (2.0mm thick), but the seller won't ship to Brazil. Another member, Lightages, might be able to help with a source, as he's also located in Brazil (might be worth a PM).

India manufactures ESD rubber mat material as well, so that might be worth looking into as well.
 

Offline GiskardReventlov

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #139 on: March 21, 2014, 07:08:26 am »
With Dave's predilection for going barefoot his ESD protection is possibly OTT anyway.

How well grounded can you be if you are barefoot on carpeting or other non-conductive flooring?
 

Offline mfeinstein

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #140 on: March 21, 2014, 07:58:30 am »
all my tools are ESD safe
ESD compliant tools still need the user attached to a resistive ground path, or the ESD aspect is useless.

FWIW, I also live in a humid climate, and still take basic precautions (mat & wrist strap).

I realize things are more expensive in Brazil than the US for example, but I would hope there are some sources that it's not prohibitively expensive (I have some Chinese made mat branded as Sierra, and it seems decent <1.5mm thick, 2 layer>). Canadian made mat I have is nicer (2.0mm thick), but the seller won't ship to Brazil. Another member, Lightages, might be able to help with a source, as he's also located in Brazil (might be worth a PM).

India manufactures ESD rubber mat material as well, so that might be worth looking into as well.

I am glad you know things in here are incredibly expensive, most people have no clue. Space is a problem as well, I used to use my universities facilities, but now that I have graduated I am still trying to figure my own lab. For sure I will have some ESD rubber when I have a space...but now getting a proper space is the real problem haha once I have it figured I will do as always: bring it myself from the USA...import taxes in Brazil goes as high as 97%, that's why people in here usually dont think about shipping large stuff, the government will tax you.

 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #141 on: March 21, 2014, 08:50:31 am »
I am glad you know things in here are incredibly expensive, most people have no clue. Space is a problem as well, I used to use my universities facilities, but now that I have graduated I am still trying to figure my own lab. For sure I will have some ESD rubber when I have a space...but now getting a proper space is the real problem haha once I have it figured I will do as always: bring it myself from the USA...import taxes in Brazil goes as high as 97%, that's why people in here usually dont think about shipping large stuff, the government will tax you.
You could start with a small piece, such as the size of a place mat on a table (say 18"x24" for example; should help with space constraints as well as cost). And at least you have the potential of bringing it in yourself from the US, which may end up being the least expensive method. Though with baggage fees, I'm not entirely sure.

Wrist strap shouldn't be a big issue (cheap & light weight). If you do go with importing it yourself from the US, you might want to look into the better brands for wrist straps, such as Desco IMHO (i.e. metal band will last longer than elastic types).
 

Offline Dave Turner

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #142 on: March 21, 2014, 08:58:08 am »
With Dave's predilection for going barefoot his ESD protection is possibly OTT anyway.

How well grounded can you be if you are barefoot on carpeting or other non-conductive flooring?

Whilst my comment was intended to be amusing I suggest that the floor in Dave's lab is unlikely to generate static.

How about a measurement Dave?
 

Offline GiskardReventlov

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Re: EEVblog #585 - Lab Bench ESD Matting Upgrade + Tagarno HD Microscope
« Reply #143 on: March 21, 2014, 02:13:58 pm »
Whilst my comment was intended to be amusing I suggest that the floor in Dave's lab is unlikely to generate static.

I did know it was meant in jest. I was also making a little fun out of it. I think Dave's well grounded.

Quote
How about a measurement Dave?
"In this episode Dave provides empirical proof that he's well grounded thereby quieting all that loose talk that he's nuts."

I saw an interesting talk about the potential (I'll take the pun) for health benefits of regular grounding via bare feet on terra firma.  It seems plausible.
 


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