Saleae logic price increases and interesting blog post explanation

[Smokey]

I just got an interesting email from the Saleae guys.  It said they are increasing prices on their products and had a link to a blog post on their site.

http://blog.saleae.com/need-raise-logics-price/

The summary is ... running an electronics design and manufacturing business is really hard.  Designs take longer than expected... Assembly is more expensive than expected... And doing everything in house isn't always the best option since running your own pick and place is a lot more involved than expected.  Plus the bigger you get, the more money you need to keep it going.

This sounds like a pretty common story for new(ish) and growing electronics design and manufacturing businesses.  There sure are a lot of easier ways out there to make a buck.

[Smokey]

I had the same code.

[marshallh]

Oh boy. Who thought it was a good idea to run their own P&P in house?
Shaking my head. Even with the low volume turnkey I've hired out I know better than that.
If the best case scenario is just gaining parity with overseas assemblers, you gain nothing. You need to factor in the immense learning curve, wasted time futzing with the machine, etc. A buddy of mine babysits these things for a living. 6 months in and they are just barely getting a handle on things.

Their "high" number of passives per pcb is nothing special, and no justification for trying to do it in-house. Maybe consider once the new tools were bringing in sales and there was lots of room to experiment.

[EEVblog]

Oh boy. Who thought it was a good idea to run their own P&P in house?
Shaking my head. Even with the low volume turnkey I've hired out I know better than that.
If the best case scenario is just gaining parity with overseas assemblers, you gain nothing. You need to factor in the immense learning curve, wasted time futzing with the machine, etc. A buddy of mine babysits these things for a living. 6 months in and they are just barely getting a handle on things.

In-house PnP capability depends upon a lot of factors. Good for some, terrible idea for others.
e.g. Sparkfun, Adafruit, and 3D robotics are 3 examples of an ideal case for in-house PnP. They spin a lot of different products (hundreds per year), and small-ish runs (100's to 1000's). The logistics of getting a subcontractor to do hundreds of different boards per year is not easy, so makes sense to bring it in house.

Now I'm not entirely sure about Saleae, but from what I gather they don't spin that many new boards every year, they just churn out existing designs. In that case an in-house PnP isn't a great option because you are just trying to maintain an expensive and complicated machine at a labour price to compete with a contract manufacturer who usually knows how to do it better, likely pays their staff less, and has better access to capital to buy better gear (read faster + more capability) than you can afford on your own.

[LabSpokane]

The vertically-integrated electronics company jumped the shark decades ago.

[Psi]

In-house PnP capability depends upon a lot of factors. Good for some, terrible idea for others.
e.g. Sparkfun, Adafruit, and 3D robotics are 3 examples of an ideal case for in-house PnP. They spin a lot of different products (hundreds per year), and small-ish runs (100's to 1000's). The logistics of getting a subcontractor to do hundreds of different boards per year is not easy, so makes sense to bring it in house.

Now I'm not entirely sure about Saleae, but from what I gather they don't spin that many new boards every year, they just churn out existing designs. In that case an in-house PnP isn't a great option because you are just trying to maintain an expensive and complicated machine at a labour price to compete with a contract manufacturer who usually knows how to do it better, likely pays their staff less, and has better access to capital to buy better gear (read faster + more capability) than you can afford on your own.

Yep, as Dave says.
And there's another reason not to do your own P&P/Reflow.
 
You don't have the issue of getting ready to put a batch of pasted PCBs into the re-purposed pizza oven only to find another employee has used to make pizza the day before and there's a mess of cheese inside.

[Rasz]

 I wonder if they make their own screws too ....

[andersm]

So this is an established company having a Kickstarter failure moment?

[Rasz]

no, this is a CEO thinking manufacturing is easy, and building in house will somehow magically stop Chinese clones 

[EEVblog]

So this is an established company having a Kickstarter failure moment?

I'm rather surprised to find that a company like Saleae that's had a market leading product for years can suddenly find themselves in a position like this. It seems entirely self inflicted.
It's fine the take on debt and try and expand your business, but usually when you've been a success for years you'd be in a position to do that with little to no risk. i.e. have lots of cash in the bank to cover things going wrong.

[EEVblog]

no, this is a CEO thinking manufacturing is easy, and building in house will somehow magically stop Chinese clones 

I do wonder how much the clones have hurt their business?

[mc]

I do wonder how much the clones have hurt their business?

Lots I'd guess.
I've got one, for the sole reason, when I came to actually need a LA, Salae had stopped doing their old digital only ones, meaning I'd have to pay a noticeable amount more for their new analog Logic 8, which I couldn't justify for the minimal use it would actually get.
I could really do with a 16 channel LA, however I can't justify the even higher price for their new 16 channel device, so I just make do with my £10 ebay clone and swapping leads around when needed.

It's not the right thing to do, but from where I'm sitting, Saleae shot themself in the foot by dropping their old digital only devices and forcing people to pay more for functionality they most likely don't need.

[dannyf]

no, this is a CEO thinking manufacturing is easy, and building in house will somehow magically stop Chinese clones

I have a lot of synpathy for guys like salae: they need to be rewarded financial to encourage further and future innovations.

On the flip side, it is stupid to think that in-house production can stop cloning. Their are now 16-ch LA clones that run on the new salae software. The differentiation has to be made somewhere else, like in providing better support, in providing better quality assurance and differing services, none of which the clones can do.

But that can be a tough sale to the hobbyist market, thus a shift in business model may be needed.

[janoc]

no, this is a CEO thinking manufacturing is easy, and building in house will somehow magically stop Chinese clones

I have a lot of synpathy for guys like salae: they need to be rewarded financial to encourage further and future innovations.

On the flip side, it is stupid to think that in-house production can stop cloning. Their are now 16-ch LA clones that run on the new salae software. The differentiation has to be made somewhere else, like in providing better support, in providing better quality assurance and differing services, none of which the clones can do.

But that can be a tough sale to the hobbyist market, thus a shift in business model may be needed.

I think that they are now more expensive than even companies like Ikalogic - that's hardly a Chinese cloner there, is it? Many new oscilloscopes include the basic logic analyzer functionality today.

Also they are hardly the only ones with a similar product on the market, but they are really one of the very expensive ones now - this is only what Sigrok supports, there are for sure many more on the market:
http://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware#Logic_analyzers

That is a company that forgot to innovate, living from their past success and now trying to blame the evil Chinese cloners for their problems.

[tom66]

I could really do with a 16 channel LA, however I can't justify the even higher price for their new 16 channel device, so I just make do with my £10 ebay clone and swapping leads around when needed.

It's not right, but it's ok to steal software from a small company? I can understand upgrading a Rigol scope but 90% of Saleae is in the software. Save a little money and buy the genuine article or don't use it at all.  What's with the entitlement here?

[andersm]

no, this is a CEO thinking manufacturing is easy

That is precisely one of the traps many Kickstarter hardware projects fall into. I would guess that their sales volume had outgrown their in-house manufacturing capability, but also was not high enough to make outsourcing viable with the old prices.

[Rasz]

In the mean time Chinese are innovating beyond clones:

http://uutools.com/Logic%20Analyzer_Overview.html

from $75 with free shipping
http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/LA1016-Logic-Analyzer-p-2214.html

[tom66]

Not seen that before. Comes with original software and it looks pretty good! 

[dannyf]

In the mean time Chinese are innovating beyond clones:

That IS a clone.

[tom66]

That IS a clone.

Different design. Uses a Cyclone IV, DDR RAM and SRAM. Software different, too:


Doesn't look quite as refined as the Saleae software. But, the software is what you're really buying when you spend  ~$200 on a Saleae.

[LabSpokane]

Salae's real mistake was in thinking that the hardware was the differentiator. It's the software. And they should simply lock down the software. Then they could sell the software to those that purchased cloned devices.

I was actually shocked to discover that there was no license/locking mechanism for the software when I got my LA from Salae.

[tom66]

I'm surprised they don't have a system where you have to enter, e.g. your device serial number to unlock it. I realise it would get cracked, but it would probably stop a lot of people who don't want to download a pirated version of it.

[Rasz]

In the mean time Chinese are innovating beyond clones:

That IS a clone.

screenshots misled you

Lets start with something important not many people realize, Saleae Logic  WAS A CLONE of
http://www.usbee.com/sx.html
http://www.usbee.com/usbeesxdigitaltestpod.aspx
They cleverly differentiated themselves with nice anodized case, VERY polished software, slightly lower price and strong marketing to DIY/arduidiot crowd. This is what they build their company on. New products are just variations on cloning higher models of USBEE. Clones showed up when demand from hobby market soared. This is when they realized commercial customers are less likely to buy clones and introduced new expensive models.

[amyk]

Considering the first 8-channel Saleae was basically the FX2LP evaluation board in a fancy-wanky case, I'm not surprised. (The clones with the same chip and Sigrok could use up to 16 channels...) If they think the cost is in software, then they should be in the business of selling LA software, and not give it away for free download on their website.

Entry-level host-based LAs like these are simple, no matter how much they trumpet their "but we spent X amount of time on it".

[zapta]

Salae's real mistake was in thinking that the hardware was the differentiator. It's the software. And they should simply lock down the software. Then they could sell the software to those that purchased cloned devices.

They also didn't support it well. When I got my Saleae device the linbus decoder for example was in beta when I purchased my device and and a year later it was still not in the stable version.

From my interaction with them they seem to be nice people but unreliable as a company. For example, my device arrived with a crappy and over sized case that was different from the nice one they shown in their marketing material.

Next time I will think twice before buying anything from them.

[nctnico]

Oh boy. Who thought it was a good idea to run their own P&P in house?
Shaking my head. Even with the low volume turnkey I've hired out I know better than that.
If the best case scenario is just gaining parity with overseas assemblers, you gain nothing. You need to factor in the immense learning curve, wasted time futzing with the machine, etc. A buddy of mine babysits these things for a living. 6 months in and they are just barely getting a handle on things.

In-house PnP capability depends upon a lot of factors. Good for some, terrible idea for others.
e.g. Sparkfun, Adafruit, and 3D robotics are 3 examples of an ideal case for in-house PnP. They spin a lot of different products (hundreds per year), and small-ish runs (100's to 1000's). The logistics of getting a subcontractor to do hundreds of different boards per year is not easy, so makes sense to bring it in house.

I fail to see the logic. A subcontractor is ideally suited for doing many different kinds of boards per year (for different customers as well). That is what they do for a living. The biggest challenge is getting the logistics right so a subcontractor delivers before stock runs out. You'll need some cash to keep inventory. But then again, having a P&P sitting doing nothing or change to a different product every day isn't going to be cheap either. Either way you need cash.

Personally I'd avoid doing inhouse PC board assembly. I'd rather look for a subcontractor who can do the work for the right price & quality level.

[dannyf]

Clones showed up when demand from hobby market soared. This is when they realized commercial customers are less likely to buy clones and introduced new expensive models.

So, if commercial customers are less likely to buy clones, why do they worry and introduce new and more expensive models?

[Rasz]

Clones showed up when demand from hobby market soared. This is when they realized commercial customers are less likely to buy clones and introduced new expensive models.

So, if commercial customers are less likely to buy clones, why do they worry and introduce new and more expensive models?

Because 8 channels at 20mhz was state of the art 30 years ago? and norm 20 years ago, not something commercial customers are interested today.

[dannyf]

So they didn't introduce new analyzers as a response to clones, nor commercial's customers propensity to buy brand name analyzers, but to technology advances.

If so, maybe you want to express that, instead of what you wrote earlier.

[Rasz]

So they didn't introduce new analyzers as a response to clones, nor commercial's customers propensity to buy brand name analyzers, but to technology advances.

If so, maybe you want to express that, instead of what you wrote earlier.

No, because thats not what I meant? Technology to offer same products cheaply was there 10 years ago. USBEE was offering mixed logic/analog AX model 10 years ago. CPLDs/FPGAs were there 10 years ago. Its not like some big technological breakthrough last year enabled Salea'eaea to finally clone higher end USBEE models.

[dannyf]

Not sure what you meant then and what you are trying to say now. I was simply trying to understand what you meant by this:

Clones showed up when demand from hobby market soared. This is when they realized commercial customers are less likely to buy clones and introduced new expensive models.

and how would one reconcile that with what you wrote later, when you tried to explain why they introduced new expensive models:

Because 8 channels at 20mhz was state of the art 30 years ago?

[Rasz]

It seems we both cant understand each other then I dont get whats not clear in what I wrote? Are you trolling? From the top, by then numbers, dumbed down version:

1 salea clones lowest, cheapest, easiest to reproduce USBEE CX hardware (cypress chip, usb socket, eeprom, resonator,  voltage regulator, and few passives on 2 layer pcb, $2 + cypress chip worth $15 at the time)
2 they market heavily towards maker crowd, key points are super nice GUI and price point slightly lower than usbee
3 arduidiots fall in love with salea, company grows on the back of arduino revolution
4 clones arrive, sales growth dries up, CEO caught with his pants down, expected to charge $150 for $20 worth of hardware forever.
5 salea decides to pivot target audience, because _unlike makers_ most commercial customers will not buy chinese clones. At the same time commercial customers demand more than just a nice gui on top of 8 channel 20MHz, hence NEW MODELS with better parameters.

Where do you see logical inconsistency?

[dannyf]

5 salea decides to pivot target audience, because _unlike makers_ most commercial customers will not buy chinese clones.

So because someone will not buy a clone of yours, you have to introduce a new product? Or you are saying that Salae is a Chinese clone so they have to introduce something new to customers who wouldn't buy Chinese clones?

[Rasz]

5 salea decides to pivot target audience, because _unlike makers_ most commercial customers will not buy chinese clones.

So because someone will not buy a clone of yours, you have to introduce a new product? Or you are saying that Salae is a Chinese clone so they have to introduce something new to customers who wouldn't buy Chinese clones?

 
Are you special? Let me go one slower just for you: Lets say you make Barbie dolls for kids, and soon market floods with counterfeits. You realize adult oriented clientele is less likely to buy chinese products (fear of led poisining). Do you try to sell your Barbie dolls in sex shops? or maybe develop realdoll - new product more suitable for this target audience?

[dannyf]

Let me go one slower just for you: Lets say you make Barbie dolls for kids, and soon market floods with counterfeits. You realize adult oriented clientele is less likely to buy chinese products (fear of led poisining). Do you try to sell your Barbie dolls in sex shops? or maybe develop realdoll - new product more suitable for this target audience?

So in order to fight the counterfeits that don't (materially?) impact your customers who are less likely to buy the counterfeits, you introduce a different product?

Does that sound rationale to you?

[skipjackrc4]

Let me go one slower just for you: Lets say you make Barbie dolls for kids, and soon market floods with counterfeits. You realize adult oriented clientele is less likely to buy chinese products (fear of led poisining). Do you try to sell your Barbie dolls in sex shops? or maybe develop realdoll - new product more suitable for this target audience?

So in order to fight the counterfeits that don't (materially?) impact your customers who are less likely to buy the counterfeits, you introduce a different product?

Does that sound rationale to you?

Just ignore him Rasz.  He's just being a troll.  I agree with what you are saying.

[nctnico]

Let me go one slower just for you: Lets say you make Barbie dolls for kids, and soon market floods with counterfeits. You realize adult oriented clientele is less likely to buy chinese products (fear of led poisining). Do you try to sell your Barbie dolls in sex shops? or maybe develop realdoll - new product more suitable for this target audience?

So in order to fight the counterfeits that don't (materially?) impact your customers who are less likely to buy the counterfeits, you introduce a different product?

Does that sound rationale to you?

Introducing new products is the way to stay ahead of the (copy-cat) competition so it makes perfects sense. People usually call that innovation and progress.

[dannyf]

Introducing new products is the way to stay ahead of the (copy-cat) competition

What kind of "competition" is it if your intended customers don't buy from it?

[IanB]

I've got one, for the sole reason, when I came to actually need a LA, Salae had stopped doing their old digital only ones, meaning I'd have to pay a noticeable amount more for their new analog Logic 8, which I couldn't justify for the minimal use it would actually get.
I could really do with a 16 channel LA, however I can't justify the even higher price for their new 16 channel device, so I just make do with my £10 ebay clone and swapping leads around when needed.

It's not the right thing to do, but from where I'm sitting, Saleae shot themself in the foot by dropping their old digital only devices and forcing people to pay more for functionality they most likely don't need.

This is a pattern that also happens in the software world. A company has a product that does a good job for a good price. But they need to grow, so they keep adding new features, and then they charge more and more for the new versions, because "it does more, right?". In the process they leave behind all the original users who don't want or need all the fancy, whizzbang new stuff, they just want the basic function done well for a good price. Those users will now desert, because why should you be forced to pay more for features you don't want?

[cosmicray]

Back in late December, I was close to pulling the trigger on a Saleae LA. Checking multiple vendors, including Saleae, revealed little to no stock. Either they got hit with a serious last minute rush, or they are having issues with their in-house production capabilities. You should never let your customer (with cash in hand) be left sitting with no options (the exception being Apple, with a new secret product only days away).

My other observation about Saleae (which others in this thread have danced around) is that their software looks more polished than most of the cloners. They also appear to be one of the few with native OS X support. The clone vendors could take even more of their business with OS X support.

[IanB]

One possible deduction from the information in this thread is that Saleae produces expensive software and offers inexpensive hardware to support it. They then give the software away for free and charge inflated prices for the hardware. Somehow this business model doesn't work for them... 

[jaxbird]

I just got an interesting email from the Saleae guys.  It said they are increasing prices on their products and had a link to a blog post on their site.

http://blog.saleae.com/need-raise-logics-price/

...

Since they are specifically looking for a private investor, it sounds like they have exhausted their available credit and the bank said no to any more loans.

I really don't think raising prices will be the way out. I believe they should have looked to China for manufacturing and put more effort into locking down their software to protect against the popular clones littered all over eBay.

Sadly they are likely doomed and will end up with a large debt.

[tszaboo]

no, this is a CEO thinking manufacturing is easy, and building in house will somehow magically stop Chinese clones 

Not to mention, anyone who learned 5 minutes of Makroeconomics could tell you that increasing price in this case will decrease your income. I guess a CEO should have 5 minutes of his life to learn the truth of this.
I personally think, that all the design engineers or programmers who think they can do inhouse manufacturing they basically spit in the face of the enginers who have years and years of experience with manufacturing. Sure, you can just set up a pick and place and a reflow, right?
I've seen contract manufacturers gone bankrupt when they were running production lines 16 hours a day.

[amyk]

Doesn't look quite as refined as the Saleae software. But, the software is what you're really buying when you spend  ~$200 on a Saleae.

Which device are you looking at? The one in the comment you replied to is definitely a Logic clone... The software is the same, and the SDK even includes references to Saleae. Download it and have a look for yourself: http://www.kingst.org/download?fl=JkiAnalyzerSDK.zip

I'm guessing they cloned the SDK so they could use Saleae protocol analysers, and the UI for consistency reasons, but the hardware is completely different.

LA5016:
500Msps @ 16 channels
Altera Cyclone FPGA + MaxII CPLD
Cypress FX2LP interface
32M internal memory

Saleae LogicPro16:
100Msps @ 16 channels
Xilinx Spartan FPGA
Cypress FX3 interface
no internal memory

[Rasz]

My other observation about Saleae (which others in this thread have danced around) is that their software looks more polished than most of the cloners. They also appear to be one of the few with native OS X support. The clone vendors could take even more of their business with OS X support.

most of the ripoff clones use 100% original unmodified Saleae software. Cloners provide 100% copy of the hardware (its just about 20 elements + 2 layer pcb, $15 max), this hardware when plugged in acts 100% as original salea logic and works 100% with salea software downloaded from salea website. This is what hurt salea the most.

[jaxbird]

most of the ripoff clones use 100% original unmodified Saleae software. Cloners provide 100% copy of the hardware (its just about 20 elements + 2 layer pcb, $15 max), this hardware when plugged in acts 100% as original salea logic and works 100% with salea software downloaded from salea website. This is what hurt salea the most.

That is outrageous, but keeping things in perspective, maybe the Saleae design was not that original, as in Saleae actually copied it to begin with.

[coppice]

no, this is a CEO thinking manufacturing is easy, and building in house will somehow magically stop Chinese clones 

Not to mention, anyone who learned 5 minutes of Makroeconomics could tell you that increasing price in this case will decrease your income.

The CEO's letter compounds this by have a real whiny "We're doomed, I tell you. Doomed." quality that would stop most people from dealing with them.

[Rasz]

most of the ripoff clones use 100% original unmodified Saleae software. Cloners provide 100% copy of the hardware (its just about 20 elements + 2 layer pcb, $15 max), this hardware when plugged in acts 100% as original salea logic and works 100% with salea software downloaded from salea website. This is what hurt salea the most.

That is outrageous, but keeping things in perspective, maybe the Saleae design was not that original, as in Saleae actually copied it to begin with.

First diy clones focused on USBEE SX.
http://kazus.ru/forums/showthread.php?t=13724
whats funnier founder of Saladea used to run a blog (Joe’s blog) where he documented bringing it to the market(manufacturing perils, etc), he didnt even hide the fact it was a copy^^^^was "inspired" by usbee.

[Howardlong]

So, for the uninitiated reading this, it sounds like the USP is a milled Al enclosure, and host software, and the BOM cost is about $10, give or take.

It also sounds like, judging from the request for cash, that either the milled Al enclosure is finished with polishing using with the foreskins of unicorns, or somebody's pissed an awful lot of money away.

[Rasz]

somebody's pissed an awful lot of money away.

building engineering team in CA to design actual hardware (instead of just copying USBEE) aint cheap, probably >100K per engineer in current everyone and his dog in a startup climate

[Howardlong]

somebody's pissed an awful lot of money away.

building engineering team in CA to design actual hardware (instead of just copying USBEE) aint cheap, probably >100K per engineer in current everyone and his dog in a startup climate

Agreed, but  they'll have sold in the order of tens of thousands of units, and that the margin will be pretty lucrative, so what I was alluding to is where did it all go?

[dannyf]

they'll have sold in the order of tens of thousands of units, and that the margin will be pretty lucrative

Let's say that they incur no (manufacturing) costs, and every penny of the revenue goes to the earnings. Over the course of 5 - 10 (?) years they have been selling this stuff, how much money have them made?

That gives you some sense how "filthy" rich those guys have made off.

Trust me, you can easily do better than that.

[tom66]

They did say before that they  (two guys) make less than an average EE, plus they have very little job security.
Sounds fun.

[BloodyCactus]

i think for 600 they have priced themselves out of the market, you pay 600 and have to use buggy beta software with no sequence search? record 2 hours of data communication, cant search data lol.

600 is beyond hobby market, and commercial business who need this stuff buy Agilent 16902B boxes.

i think, they could not adapt to the cloners and now the cloners have eaten the business in the low end.

[tom66]

Who buys Logic16 when you can get MSO1074Z from Rigol for about $235 more?
http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso1000z/mso1074z/

Given it has a whole four 70MHz analog channels,  which can also be used as digital inputs...

Really is too expensive.

[dannyf]

The big advantage of the Logic over other LAs is the unlimited memory

You probably want to do some research on that. It is not that simple.

[LabSpokane]

https://www.saleae.com/counterfeit?gclid=CjwKEAiAodOlBRDCjr-UlJDjtVUSJABR7fxyaen0U8RogDs1tcGSON4qm1dxJjYtJCQmgKv4mW3ibBoCZ4Lw_wcB

Counterfeit Devices
Hello! We are Joe and Mark Garrison, and we have been working for the last 3 years to create a really great Logic Analyzer called Logic. 95% of what makes Logic a fantastic tool is its software, which we've been working on non-stop for the past 3 years. It's an enormous effort, tens upon tens of thousands of lines of code, countless hours of hard work, user feedback, and testing, debugging, and new features. And we aren't stopping -- we're super excited about some of the awesome things we'll be able to do with the software in the months and years ahead.

At least, that's what we hope we'll be able to do. Unfortunately, a number of companies and individuals are knocking off our hardware -- selling hardware that pretends to be Logic and uses our software. We need to be clear: this is hurting us. If the trend continues we may go out of business. When you buy Logic, you're paying for good hardware, it's true, but you're also paying for thousands upon thousands of hours of software development work (quite a bargain when you think about it). And we actually take home much less money than we would if we got regular EE or CSE jobs.

That said, and as much as we hate to get side-tracked, we have to do something about this. We've worked hard to make something that we're proud of, and it really is disheartening and scary to see a few people stealing it to make a quick buck.

The first thing we're going to do is to try and appeal to the better nature of these companies and individuals. We're not convinced they even know what they are doing is wrong, or that it's hurting anyone. We would like to encourage them to create Logic Analyzers, but to create their own software, not steal ours. They could create their own software, or even participate in one of several open source logic analyzer software projects, like Sigrok.

The second thing we're going to do is to develop countermeasures in the software against these knockoff devices. We will attempt to detect them and not let them work with the software. Please understand that if you purchase one of these knockoffs, it is not likely to work with future versions of our software. If we don't take some action soon we could go out of business and have to abandon our quest to make the best logic analyzer software in the world.

Thank you for your understanding, empathy, and for all the support --

Kindest regards,

Joe & Mark Garrison

[dannyf]

The second thing we're going to do is to develop countermeasures in the software against these knockoff devices. We will attempt to detect them and not let them work with the software.

They have. Some earlier versions of the Logic clones don't work with newer software - but the cloners have largely figured out a way around that (EEPROM).

[ovnr]

I just don't get why they raise their prices instead of slash production costs - no more overpriced anodized cases, etc.

I'm not, not going to be spending $200-500 on a LA even if the software is nice. And if what I'm "really paying for" is the software, stop being dumb and capitalize on that, then! Ship the LA with a really limited copy - with a low price - and sell upgrades.


Also, when your solution to "Oh I'm having serious cashflow problems" is "Let's spend thousands and thousands on new tooling that offer little difference!", I just shake my head.


Saleae, won't miss you when you go plop.

[IanB]

95% of what makes Logic a fantastic tool is its software, which we've been working on non-stop for the past 3 years. It's an enormous effort, tens upon tens of thousands of lines of code, countless hours of hard work, user feedback, and testing, debugging, and new features. And we aren't stopping -- we're super excited about some of the awesome things we'll be able to do with the software in the months and years ahead.

With most engineering it is the design effort which costs the money, far more so than the cost of parts or assembly.

If 95% of the value is in the software, then it makes more sense to monetize the software. You could almost invert the business model: "Buy our great software and we will throw in some compatible hardware for free!"  Of course, the software would have to be suitably locked down with appropriate license keys to deter piracy, but it would make it clear where the value lies.

[alank2]

Hi Everyone,

Well, I've been watching the Saleae and the development of their new models over the past year.

When I was originally looking for a logic analyzer, I was looking at the Intronix LogicPort and the Saleae Logic 16.  They ended up running a 20% off coupon and I picked up a Logic 16 for $240.  I later ended it picking up a LogicPort off of eBay for around $150 as well.  They are very different units with different strengths and shortcomings, but the thing is that I truly love them both but I enjoy working with the Saleae Logic 16 more.

I really hope that they are able to resolve the issues they are struggling with.

I've had really great experiences in dealing with them and I am a picky customer so while other companies would consider you asking for too much and want to unload you, I've found that Saleae went further in helping me than many other companies do.

My honest take is this:

Positives:

The software before the new version for the original products was good, but the newer software (which IS compatible with the older products, again something not all companies would do) is a major improvement.  It is multi-platform and more importantly open.  I was able to write the HD44780 protocol analyzer for it without much trouble and with responsive help from them when I asked for it.  The new software DOES have a table that shows protocol results and IS searchable now.  So with the software, I am quite pleased.

Their product is unique.  Most logic analyzers capture to a limited size buffer and then transfer the small amount of data to your system.  I think when they added USB3 to be able to stream more data real time that this is pretty cool.  To add analog to the mix as well also cool.

I can appreciate the pride they put into their product.  The aluminum case, their circuit board looks very nice, etc.  I'm willing to a bit more (not hugely) for something that has been made well and with pride.

They do support their customers.  I think they have a 6 month return policy now which is incredible.  You have plenty of time to evaluate a product and see if it meets your needs or not.

Negatives:

I think they should still offer their older products.  I think it was a mistake to take out the digital only offerings.  Not everyone needs analog.

The pricing was already too high on the pro series.  They started at $399 and $499 and I was hoping they would come down $50 or so on each one to make them more appealing.

They tried to do too much too fast, rolling out 4 new products and new software at one time was too much and it caused things to drag on.  While this may be resolved now, I think it has been a tough year for them.

Thanks,

Alan

[dannyf]

I like Saleae and i hope they can survive. Having done start-ups myself, I know how painful it must be for those guys right now. They make good products and all they need are some business / managerial helps. I hope they get it soon and remain a viable business.

[LabSpokane]

You could almost invert the business model...

I would argue that the business model is already inverted. It is now only up to the bankruptcy court to finish the job. 

[coppice]

Plus I can never remember how to spell their name when googling...

I know what you mean. They seem to be buried deep in the vowels of the internet.

[chicken]

If 95% of the value is in the software, then it makes more sense to monetize the software. You could almost invert the business model: "Buy our great software and we will throw in some compatible hardware for free!"  Of course, the software would have to be suitably locked down with appropriate license keys to deter piracy, but it would make it clear where the value lies.

Too bad the maker/hacker community doesn't want to pay for software.

[tszaboo]

I'm not, not going to be spending $200-500 on a LA even if the software is nice. And if what I'm "really paying for" is the software, stop being dumb and capitalize on that, then! Ship the LA with a really limited copy - with a low price - and sell upgrades.

I preatty much spent more on a USB logic analiser last year. At WORK. For personal use, I really dont have the budget for a device which is rarely used, and over expensive. At work I'm not going to buy something from saleaeeae. Why?
Because they dont have distributors. I cannot buy it from farnell or digikey, and I'm certanly not interested in the bureaucratic bllsht required to buy from an other vendor. So who is the target for these products? Starbucks programmers?

[alank2]

It's almost useless though because you can only search for one value. Say I want to see when register 0x06 is set to 0x82 over I2C. If I search for 0x06 I get every access to that register, and if I search for 0x82 I get every instance of that value being used in any context. What I need is to search for 0x06 followed by 0x82, and preferably only during an I2C write transaction as I don't care about reads.

I think they could pull this off because I believe the data is grouped.  You can see this if you look at their SDK documentation.  I think they have a level for frame, byte, etc., so they could create a search that looks for multiple values in the largest grouping such as a frame.  I don't recall the exact groupings but I remember reading they are there.  I don't know that all their analyzers properly group into them though at this point.

[BloodyCactus]

I think they could pull this off because I believe the data is grouped.  You can see this if you look at their SDK documentation.  I think they have a level for frame, byte, etc., so they could create a search that looks for multiple values in the largest grouping such as a frame.  I don't recall the exact groupings but I remember reading they are there.  I don't know that all their analyzers properly group into them though at this point.

but your paying 600 dollars for something that is not there right now, and may never be there.

[Rigby]

Who buys Logic16 when you can get MSO1074Z from Rigol for about $235 more?
http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso1000z/mso1074z/

Given it has a whole four 70MHz analog channels,  which can also be used as digital inputs...

Really is too expensive.

Except the Logic Pro 16 has analog on all 16 channels.  It doesn't have the voltage safety of a proper scope, though.

[alank2]

And also that honestly using a LA on a scope is a PITA imho.  I can do with a PC probably 5 times faster.  The other thing is that a scope is meant to trigger on a small area repeatedly and that isn't necessarily what you are looking to do with an LA.  That is a learning thing though, you can zoom out on the scope and prevent that as long as the scope has enough memory and thankfully these days they do.

[Smokey]

Don't pretty much all mixed signal scopes have PC software these days so you can do the digital analysis there instead of on the tiny screen?  Doesn't that pretty much turn any scope with a LA into a "USB/network/whatever Logic Analyzer"?

[nctnico]

IMHO an MSO is the easiest to use for 99% of the logic analysis tasks. Especially when it has decoders.

[LabSpokane]

https://www.saleae.com/about

It's more fun to be a pirate than to join the navy.

Probably not the best quotation to have on Saleae's website about now...

[Howardlong]

Trust me, you can easily do better than that.

Speaking as an OEM, believe me, I don't need to trust you ;-)

[Zbig]

https://www.saleae.com/about

It's more fun to be a pirate than to join the navy.

Probably not the best quotation to have on Saleae's website about now...

They've always been way too "Apple'y" for my taste. But as long as they provide actual technical data instead of saying "You don't have to care how many channels does this LA have or what the maximum sample rate is - it just works. Magic." then whatever, I guess... Still seems a bit out of place (the Apple "ethos" in T&M field) to me, though. And I think that Joe Garrison's (CEO) fascination with Jobs and Apple won't allow them to release anything they'd consider "cheap" or "non-premium" - that seems to be baked deep into their company's philosophy.

Disclaimer: I do own original (digital-only) Logic16.

[LabSpokane]

I own a Saleae LA as well. I like it well enough. It serves a different purpose than my MSO and that's fine. I have no axe to grind. I'm just surprised to see a promising small company insource itself to destruction. Usually small businesses outsource to save on CAPEX. 

I have two takeaways from this:

1. Never forget that the software is where the value lies. It's the hardest part and lives the longest.

d.  Never develop a product that is solely dependent on "makers/hackers" for one's livelihood.

It would be interesting to know if there is anything left to salvage. If the software is well-written, perhaps. If they've slowed down on dev because they've written spaghetti, oh well...

[SteveyG]

I have two takeaways from this:

1. Never forget that the software is where the value lies. It's the hardest part and lives the longest.

d.  Never develop a product that is solely dependent on "makers/hackers" for one's livelihood.

Interesting numbering scheme 

[nowlan]

Can they not just go s/w only as a company?

Are the Chinese only "cloning" their older boards?

I guess you have no market for the software without boards, but it seems the chinese can undercut you.
Most of the value add is in the software.

I havent really considered their new offerings.

nb. I have no business acumen

[dannyf]

d.  Never develop a product that is solely dependent on "makers/hackers" for one's livelihood.

Agreed. Selling to the hobbyist is a terrible business model.

It would be interesting to know if there is anything left to salvage.

I hope so. Those guys' value-add is showing all what's possible with primarily software. Their feel-and-touch is top notch and far better than anyone before them, or even in the market now.

I wish best of lucks to those guys.

[Corporate666]

I own a Saleae LA as well. I like it well enough. It serves a different purpose than my MSO and that's fine. I have no axe to grind. I'm just surprised to see a promising small company insource itself to destruction. Usually small businesses outsource to save on CAPEX. 

I have two takeaways from this:

1. Never forget that the software is where the value lies. It's the hardest part and lives the longest.

d.  Never develop a product that is solely dependent on "makers/hackers" for one's livelihood.

It would be interesting to know if there is anything left to salvage. If the software is well-written, perhaps. If they've slowed down on dev because they've written spaghetti, oh well...

Insourcing to save money is often (usually) a bad idea - it's rare that you can do something cheaper than someone else who specializes in that thing and does it on a large scale.  One of the benefits of insourcing, however, is Just-In-Time manufacturing ability.  This allows you to keep inventory levels low and usually dramatically reduce the time from order to delivery without having to maintain inventory.

I wasn't surprised to see in Joe's blog post that this was one of his big reasons for investing in in-house PnP.  That's one of the main reasons I did it as well.  I have a product that would cost $2.50 for PCB assembly and I make about 5,000 of per year.  That's $12.5k in assembly costs... but I got a used Quad PnP for $10k on my floor, guaranteed, tested, tooled up and that included a day of training.  Now, we pay to run the machine (operator time, maintenance), but so far maintenance has been zero over 3 years and operator time is minimal.. and there are time costs with outsourcing as well, not to mention the capital costs of carrying much greater inventory (and parts/materials needed to outsource).  Last but not least, I still own the machine that I can probably get most of the $10k back out of.

You have to be very careful insourcing - if the cost efficiencies realized are what keeps you cashflow positive, then that signals additional steps need to be taken to correct the course of the business towards greater profitability - but insourcing isn't a path to failure, it can be very beneficial under the right circumstances.

[Corporate666]

d.  Never develop a product that is solely dependent on "makers/hackers" for one's livelihood.

Agreed. Selling to the hobbyist is a terrible business model.

It would be interesting to know if there is anything left to salvage.

I hope so. Those guys' value-add is showing all what's possible with primarily software. Their feel-and-touch is top notch and far better than anyone before them, or even in the market now.

I wish best of lucks to those guys.

Well said on both counts.  Selling to consumers is great if you can do it on a huge scale (like Apple, Microsoft), but selling to businesses is a hell of a lot easier of a sale.  For a business, much of the emotion is removed and it's closer to a straight numbers play - "how much money do I make by spending $X on your product?". 

I really don't know why the Salae guys seem to be so focused on the hardware.  Fighting a tidal wave is impossible - and if they were to sell the software separate from the hardware (and/or give you a 'free' copy of their software with purchase of their hardware - however they want to pitch it), then they could capture revenue from all the deadbeats who are buying cheap Chinese junk and ripping off Salae for their software to run with their Chinese junk.  Selling software can be wonderful - you're already developing it, and there is very little overhead involved in each sale, especially if you charge for service and support.   It seems like Salae is missing the forest for the trees and ignoring a potential HUGE revenue stream on the basis of principles.  They should let the market decide... if customers prefer to pay $100 for their software and run it with a crap Chinese piece of hardware... well, that's what the market wants.  If they don't sell their software, someone else might come along and sell such software.

[amyk]

https://www.saleae.com/about

It's more fun to be a pirate than to join the navy.

Probably not the best quotation to have on Saleae's website about now...

I think Saleae's "Apple-ism" just doesn't work so well with engineers; they're not the type to obsess over milled aluminium cases and all that "wank" (as Dave calls it), and pretty software is "ugly" to them if it doesn't have the functionality they want.

In fact I don't think a casing made of conductive material on a small "dongle-like" logic analyser is a good idea at all; it's another chance to short something out with it.

[Zbig]

I think Saleae's "Apple-ism" just doesn't work so well with engineers; they're not the type to obsess over milled aluminium cases and all that "wank" (as Dave calls it), and pretty software is "ugly" to them if it doesn't have the functionality they want.

In fact I don't think a casing made of conductive material on a small "dongle-like" logic analyser is a good idea at all; it's another chance to short something out with it.

To me, this article: http://www.eejournal.com/archives/articles/20141223-saleae/ , while presumably unwittingly, sums up what's wrong with their "pretty, shiny T&M devices" philosophy. I, as an engineer, would probably feel little awkward after reading it, a little patronized, perhaps, if I were Saleae. I don't know, like a female scientist who just discovered something big while everyone around her just seems to talk about how nice a pair of... eyes she's got. Saleae, on the other hand, seemed flattered by that (retweets). I laugh at Starbucks-dwelling Apple show-offs and, as an engineer, I'd like to be perceived as anything but that. They're not engineers, they're the opposite. They're, in large part, "passive" users of technology, not having the slightest of clues as of what happens under the hood, expecting everything to "just work". It's the engineers who made these shiny, trendy toys for them. Heck, Saleae's blatant fascination with everthing Apple was actually a turnoff I had to overcome while deciding on the purchase of their Logic.

[alank2]

You guys are a tough crowd!  I've got to say that from a consumer standpoint, I love their business model.  It may not be the most profitable business model where a company squeezes every last cent out of someone, but I'm glad it isn't.  I wouldn't pay for a support contract and I'd be irritated to pay for extra features to unlock this or unlock that.

I actually think their latest products are a work of beauty from the enclosure to the way they made the pcb's.  I can appreciate that they like to make nice things.  I think the human race has really lost something in the past 20-30 years.  Not many care about making something quality anymore because we can get a junk version, use it for 5 minutes, toss it, and just go buy another one.  I guess I'm on a rant, but I would love for humans to get back into the business to building beautiful things.

[dannyf]

I think Saleae's "Apple-ism" just doesn't work so well with engineers;

I am not sure. I thought it has been established that they sell into the hobbyist / maker crowd. Unfortunately, those are highly price sensitive and the wrong business model (of giving away your most valuable assets) doesn't work here when the hardware was so easily cloned.

The Apple model works to the extent that a) there is a fanatic following (aka the customers are not that price sensitive) and b) the replication cost is prohibitive. None of that holds true here, unfortunately for Saleae.

I happen to think that their fundamental approach - acquisition hardware + virtual analyzer - is the future of instrumentation - I know of quite a few firms working on precisely that, on mobile platforms.

So if the Saleae guys cannot make it work in logic analyzers, hopefully they will take the same approach, refine the business model, and replicate their success in a different niche.

[Zbig]

You guys are a tough crowd!  I've got to say that from a consumer standpoint, I love their business model.  It may not be the most profitable business model where a company squeezes every last cent out of someone, but I'm glad it isn't.  I wouldn't pay for a support contract and I'd be irritated to pay for extra features to unlock this or unlock that.

I actually think their latest products are a work of beauty from the enclosure to the way they made the pcb's.  I can appreciate that they like to make nice things.  I think the human race has really lost something in the past 20-30 years.  Not many care about making something quality anymore because we can get a junk version, use it for 5 minutes, toss it, and just go buy another one.  I guess I'm on a rant, but I would love for humans to get back into the business to building beautiful things.

I didn't say I wanted it ugly (or low quality) but how would you feel if Dave, in his latest review, instead of commenting on the actual performance and features of that cool Rigol scope, elaborated on how beautiful the curvature of the handle is, making it THE most important aspect of that piece of hardware? That's what they've done in that article and Saleae seemed to like it. Cars should be nice too look at. Clothes should look good on you. Sure it doesn't HURT when your T&M tool is easy on the eye but, come on, making it one of the most important features? Sorry, no, this is out of place.

And by the way, believe it or not, Apple design isn't the epitome of beauty for everyone Neither the quality, for that matter.

EDIT:
For the record: I wish them best but this Apple thing does and will keep annoying me.

[alank2]

instead of commenting on the actual performance and features of that cool Rigol scope, elaborated on how beautiful the curvature of the handle is, making it THE most important aspect of that piece of hardware?

Oh I am with you, I just want it all.  I want it to be designed well, work well, built well, durable, long lasting, and be good to look at!

[LabSpokane]

You guys are a tough crowd!  I've got to say that from a consumer standpoint, I love their business model.  It may not be the most profitable business model...

It's tough love. I don't think anyone dislikes Saleae here. And it's not that the business model isn't *as* profitable, it's not profitable at all, by their own admission. The vibe here is one of seeing good people do good work and wanting to them succeed. The market has essentially chosen the path they must follow to survive. One person's harsh is another's objective.

[alank2]

It's tough love. I don't think anyone dislikes Saleae here. And it's not that the business model isn't *as* profitable, it's not profitable at all, by their own admission. The vibe here is one of seeing good people do good work and wanting to them succeed. The market has essentially chosen the path they must follow to survive. One person's harsh is another's objective.

I'm with you LabSpokane. 

[senso]

Stupid question, if they wrote thousands upon thousands of lines of code why is the software almost like it was 5 years ago, with limited decoders available, limited cursors, "dumb" data dump to .xls, are they designing the GUI pixel by pixel?

[alank2]

Stupid question, if they wrote thousands upon thousands of lines of code why is the software almost like it was 5 years ago, with limited decoders available, limited cursors, "dumb" data dump to .xls, are they designing the GUI pixel by pixel?

The software is very different if you install the latest beta compared to old release code from years ago. 

Here is the current decoder list:

[cosmicray]

https://www.saleae.com/about

It's more fun to be a pirate than to join the navy.

Probably not the best quotation to have on Saleae's website about now...

I think Saleae's "Apple-ism" just doesn't work so well with engineers; they're not the type to obsess over milled aluminium cases and all that "wank" (as Dave calls it), and pretty software is "ugly" to them if it doesn't have the functionality they want.

In fact I don't think a casing made of conductive material on a small "dongle-like" logic analyser is a good idea at all; it's another chance to short something out with it.

the folks over at DP have been looking at milled cases as well ...
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=59389#p59389

[Corporate666]

I didn't say I wanted it ugly (or low quality) but how would you feel if Dave, in his latest review, instead of commenting on the actual performance and features of that cool Rigol scope, elaborated on how beautiful the curvature of the handle is, making it THE most important aspect of that piece of hardware? That's what they've done in that article and Saleae seemed to like it. Cars should be nice too look at. Clothes should look good on you. Sure it doesn't HURT when your T&M tool is easy on the eye but, come on, making it one of the most important features? Sorry, no, this is out of place.

And by the way, believe it or not, Apple design isn't the epitome of beauty for everyone Neither the quality, for that matter.

EDIT:
For the record: I wish them best but this Apple thing does and will keep annoying me.

It's human nature to want beautiful things.  I've made a shitload of money manufacturing things that are high-tech but also "beautiful".  Apple has done the same but to an orders of magnitude greater extent.

The desire to own and possess beautiful things isn't limited to consumer devices... it extends to medical equipment, construction equipment, plastic storage containers, commodity goods and everything else we spend money on.  It's not the defining feature of a product but it's an important one because the things that beautiful design convey are things that people are willing to pay money for.

I'm happy to admit that I like how my Rigol, Agilent and Fluke gear looks on my bench and I would preferentially buy something that perhaps isn't as good on paper but looks better than something that is technically better but less attractive - even at the same price.  The vast majority do the same - even if they don't admit or acknowledge it

[Smokey]

It's human nature to want beautiful things.  I've made a shitload of money manufacturing things that are high-tech but also "beautiful".  Apple has done the same but to an orders of magnitude greater extent.

The desire to own and possess beautiful things isn't limited to consumer devices... it extends to medical equipment, construction equipment, plastic storage containers, commodity goods and everything else we spend money on.  It's not the defining feature of a product but it's an important one because the things that beautiful design convey are things that people are willing to pay money for.

I'm happy to admit that I like how my Rigol, Agilent and Fluke gear looks on my bench and I would preferentially buy something that perhaps isn't as good on paper but looks better than something that is technically better but less attractive - even at the same price.  The vast majority do the same - even if they don't admit or acknowledge it

I'll take function over form for the vast majority of things.  Many engineers I talk to share my opinion on this.  I don't really care what something looks like if it does its job well.  And in fact, I get kind of mad knowing that a company added extra expense, and therefore cost, to a product for the sole purpose of making is visually attractive.  Passing that on to me and forcing me to pay more is not cool.  If it has some functional purpose and is also elegant that's fine but beyond that it really turns me off as a customer.  Having lost most faith in non-technical humanity, they can keep wasting their money on shiney things they don't understand with no substance like good consumer monkeys.  But if you are going to market something with a specific technical use to a technical customer, especially in a market you don't have cornered, you better have good value for the price.

The machined aluminum cases is kind of wanky and just extra cost without any extra function.  Not a significant number of people were buying a Saleae LA BECAUSE of the aluminum case.  That means they could have used plastic and kept the price the same and increased their profit like many people here have said.  You can only get away with lower profit margins due to non-funtional added cost if you are going to make it up in sales volume.  Otherwise you better decrease your manufacturing cost and raise your profit as much as you can or you won't survive.  The "Apple business model" is not something that should be copied by everyone.  Apple wasn't successful because of Steve Jobs vision of artistic purity.  They were successful because they got lucky and had a great marketing team.  Then after that they rode the wave of consumer monkeyism.

[c4757p]

I promise you that the Saleae's polished appearance, both hardware and software, is a big part of why it's the most popular of all the low-end logic analyzers.

Engineers like form too, even if they don't want to admit it. Attention to detail in that area makes them think of quality. Just look at Dave going on and on about the build quality of his favorite high-end test gear. Most of it isn't actually important to making the product work, it just gives it a solid, well-engineered feel.

The fact that the Keylent-Packard scopes he reviews feel "solid" compared to a Siglent with a light, creaky, plasticky case doesn't actually matter at all.

And yeah, the plasticky one still makes my skin crawl. What can I say? I'm human.

[coppice]

The fact that the Keylent-Packard scopes he reviews feel "solid" compared to a Siglent with a light, creaky, plasticky case doesn't actually matter at all.

Interestingly Dave found the plastic case of the 3000T had broken, yet still described it as a good solid design.

[coppice]

I'd be happy if they just started to contribute to sigrok or something. They have more decoders now, but most of the new ones are just slight variations on the old ones and still fairly useless due to the crippled search functionality. It seems like they don't have the resources they need, and by contributing to an open source project they could pick up a lot of free tech and get a lot of brownie points from the OSH/maker community.

Its sad, but sigrok's momentum never quite seems to reach the tipping point where contributions really start to flow in.

I can't see how sigrok could ever do good things for Saleae. If you have good software, most people will just use it with the minimum cost hardware that is compatible. Businesses which insist on supported hardware would buy from a well established source, as they do now. Saleae has just published a letter publicly stating they are not a well established source.

[pickle9000]

I can't see how sigrok could ever do good things for Saleae. If you have good software, most people will just use it with the minimum cost hardware that is compatible.

The problem is that they don't have good software. It's okay, but lacking basic features. If they started to push sigrok it would get more contributions, and they would in turn get more features for their hardware. They were clearly hoping to get a lot of contributions to their software in the form of decoders, but to no-one's surprise people generally are not that willing to work on code for proprietary software. They would rather write a decoder for sigrok, which then isn't tied to one company and which is open source.

Sigrok has massive potential. I'm not sure that Saleae could come up with a system that would allow both to survive. Properly funded Sigrok could kill Saleae sales.

[dannyf]

Sigrok has massive potential.

I would pick humble presence than massive potential any time of the day.

[zapta]

Sigrok has massive potential.

I would pick humble presence than massive potential any time of the day.

A bird in the hand...

Just looked at sigrok download page. Couldn't fine official stable binaries for Windows and Mac OSX.

http://sigrok.org/wiki/Downloads

Is each hardware vendor expected to provide his own single package installs?

[pickle9000]

Sigrok has massive potential.

I would pick humble presence than massive potential any time of the day.

A bird in the hand...

Just looked at sigrok download page. Couldn't fine official stable binaries for Windows and Mac OSX.

http://sigrok.org/wiki/Downloads

Is each hardware vendor expected to provide his own single package installs?

It is not even close to being a viable product. For a hobbyist or student no problem buy a cheap bit of hardware and away you go. For a professional no. 

[SteveyG]

It is not even close to being a viable product. For a hobbyist or student no problem buy a cheap bit of hardware and away you go. For a professional no.

A professional would never be using the types of device discussed in this thread anyway though.

[mtdoc]

A professional would never be using the types of device discussed in this thread anyway though.

I listened to the latest episode of The Amp Hour last night. In it Bob Davidson raves about his Logic Pro 16 and about Saleae. Clearly professionals are using these devices.

[pickle9000]

It is not even close to being a viable product. For a hobbyist or student no problem buy a cheap bit of hardware and away you go. For a professional no.

A professional would never be using the types of device discussed in this thread anyway though.

I will add that a professional will use whatever tool he needs to speed up the design process. He may then have to go back and verify this or that later on to ensure there are no issues. If for example Sikrok had a weird protocol decoder that I didn't have access to (for a particular project), I'd use it no problem. That would not mean that I could skip checking the original specification to see if everything is correct.

[alank2]

I listened to the latest episode of The Amp Hour last night. In it Bob Davidson raves about his Logic Pro 16 and about Saleae. Clearly professionals are using these devices.

I agree, and I think their new hardware looks very robust.  I'd buy one of the pro models before the price goes up if I had the extra coin right now.

[Smokey]

I know I'm being lazy, and I should do my own research..... but...

Say I was a professional engineer and I were looking for a basic pro level logic analyzer.   What are the options out there now and how much do they cost?  Does any of that overlap with the Saleae offerings?  Who would they be competing against at the higher Saleae price points?

[Fsck]

I know I'm being lazy, and I should do my own research..... but...

Say I was a professional engineer and I were looking for a basic pro level logic analyzer and the similarly dependent on pc setups like the logicport.   What are the options out there now and how much do they cost?  Does any of that overlap with the Saleae offerings?  Who would they be competing against at the higher Saleae price points?

their competition for the professional world is basically old stand alone logic analyzers, they're in a pretty unique position of low cost (relatively speaking) and as much function as they can put in. Saleae tends to lose in terms of hardware capabilities but make up for it with modern functionality that you won't find in the old mainframes.

[Galenbo]

d.  Never develop a product that is solely dependent on "makers/hackers" for one's livelihood.

Agreed. Selling to the hobbyist is a terrible business model....

I don't agree here. It's a business like another. Selling to the army is also terrible, selling for medical use also.

There are many brands that exclusively target hobbyists. Rongfu45, Makerbot, HBM, Arduino, Megasquirt MSEFI, Velleman, Perel, Startools,...

[Galenbo]

...In fact I don't think a casing made of conductive material on a small "dongle-like" logic analyser is a good idea at all; it's another chance to short something out with it.

... sums up what's wrong with their "pretty, shiny T&M devices" philosophy. I, as an engineer, would probably feel little awkward after reading it, a little patronized, perhaps, if I were Saleae. ...

I guess you are both right, but please give the name and type of the BETTER logical analyser for <200 euro with the same specs, and your reason WHY ist is better.

I don't own a Logic analyser, I want one, and it's impossible to know what's the better one by reading and comparing specs.

[Galenbo]

I promise you that the Saleae's polished appearance, both hardware and software, is a big part of why it's the most popular of all the low-end logic analyzers.

Don't forget the cost of their appearance, professional video's, designerist website, expensive photographs and so on.
I think this has cost them most of all.

[wraper]

There are many brands that exclusively target hobbyists. Rongfu45, Makerbot, HBM, Arduino, Megasquirt MSEFI, Velleman, Perel, Startools,...

Perel do not target hobbyists at all. Edit: probably you meant different Perel (velleman subsidiary?), which sells all kind of junk, not electronics related company.

[Rasz]

I know I'm being lazy, and I should do my own research..... but...

Say I was a professional engineer and I were looking for a basic pro level logic analyzer.   What are the options out there now and how much do they cost?  Does any of that overlap with the Saleae offerings?  Who would they be competing against at the higher Saleae price points?

for the fifth time? USBEE
http://www.usbee.com/
there is a lot of competition, and almost all of it has better spec , and sometimes better prices, like
http://linkinstruments.com

[zapta]

I know I'm being lazy, and I should do my own research..... but...

Say I was a professional engineer and I were looking for a basic pro level logic analyzer.   What are the options out there now and how much do they cost?  Does any of that overlap with the Saleae offerings?  Who would they be competing against at the higher Saleae price points?

for the fifth time? USBEE
http://www.usbee.com/
there is a lot of competition, and almost all of it has better spec , and sometimes better prices, like
http://linkinstruments.com

Anything with Mac OSX support?  (Salleaeaeae runs also on Mac OSX).

[Corporate666]

I'll take function over form for the vast majority of things.  Many engineers I talk to share my opinion on this.  I don't really care what something looks like if it does its job well.  And in fact, I get kind of mad knowing that a company added extra expense, and therefore cost, to a product for the sole purpose of making is visually attractive.  Passing that on to me and forcing me to pay more is not cool.  If it has some functional purpose and is also elegant that's fine but beyond that it really turns me off as a customer.  Having lost most faith in non-technical humanity, they can keep wasting their money on shiney things they don't understand with no substance like good consumer monkeys.  But if you are going to market something with a specific technical use to a technical customer, especially in a market you don't have cornered, you better have good value for the price.

The machined aluminum cases is kind of wanky and just extra cost without any extra function.  Not a significant number of people were buying a Saleae LA BECAUSE of the aluminum case.  That means they could have used plastic and kept the price the same and increased their profit like many people here have said.  You can only get away with lower profit margins due to non-funtional added cost if you are going to make it up in sales volume.  Otherwise you better decrease your manufacturing cost and raise your profit as much as you can or you won't survive.  The "Apple business model" is not something that should be copied by everyone.  Apple wasn't successful because of Steve Jobs vision of artistic purity.  They were successful because they got lucky and had a great marketing team.  Then after that they rode the wave of consumer monkeyism.

The way product design decisions are made within a company don't match the way you think they do (or should) as written above.  Companies don't set prices based on what their costs are.  It comes from the other end... you figure out what the absolute maximum is that you can charge for a product, and then you do your best to keep costs as low as possible.   Beautiful design commands a higher price every time... people can say "I don't care about that", but they do - even if just subconsciously.  We all desire certain cars that aren't Ford Fiestas (or whatever the smallest size/most efficient model is).  We want pretty metal cased mobile phones, flashy watches, leather jackets, Mercedes' and such.  We might say we don't care about such things - but it's a universal truth that none of us are exceptions to.

In the case of Salae, you can buy a cheap plastic case logic analyzer for a fraction of the price of the Salae unit.  They are selling a premium product and it needs to look like it.  It's not that the metal anodized case adds functionality, or that people rationalize the cost difference on the basis of the housing - it's that people say "oooooh, pretty shiny object - I want it!" and they buy it.

I bet you do it too... just like I do... even if you don't realize it

[SteveyG]

A professional would never be using the types of device discussed in this thread anyway though.

I listened to the latest episode of The Amp Hour last night. In it Bob Davidson raves about his Logic Pro 16 and about Saleae. Clearly professionals are using these devices.

I don't know what that program is or who Bob is, but in a professional environment I've never worked with anything other than 16800's or LeCroy type devices.

[mtdoc]

A professional would never be using the types of device discussed in this thread anyway though.

I listened to the latest episode of The Amp Hour last night. In it Bob Davidson raves about his Logic Pro 16 and about Saleae. Clearly professionals are using these devices.

I don't know what that program is or who Bob is, but in a professional environment I've never worked with anything other than 16800's or LeCroy type devices.

The Amp Hour

Bob Davidson

The recent episode I mentioned where Bob is on again and discusses using the Saleae Pro 16

[Galenbo]

I know I'm being lazy, and I should do my own research..... but...

Say I was a professional engineer and I were looking for a basic pro level logic analyzer.   What are the options out there now and how much do they cost?  Does any of that overlap with the Saleae offerings?  Who would they be competing against at the higher Saleae price points?

for the fifth time? USBEE
http://www.usbee.com/
there is a lot of competition, and almost all of it has better spec , and ...

Can you please tell why? What are the better specs, why are they important,...

[amyk]

for the fifth time? USBEE
http://www.usbee.com/

The USBee is okay... Pricing is a little high, and the software has very few decoders. The protocol level decoding is nice though. The basic models are limited to 24MHz as well.

Anything with 24Msps is almost certainly FX2-based.

http://sigrok.org/wiki/Fx2lafw

[Smokey]

I know I'm being lazy, and I should do my own research..... but...

Say I was a professional engineer and I were looking for a basic pro level logic analyzer.   What are the options out there now and how much do they cost?  Does any of that overlap with the Saleae offerings?  Who would they be competing against at the higher Saleae price points?

for the fifth time? USBEE
http://www.usbee.com/
there is a lot of competition, and almost all of it has better spec , and sometimes better prices, like
http://linkinstruments.com

Is a USBEE really seen differently than a Saleae from a pro standpoint?  My question was specifically if I was a professional engineer and I had to put in a request for a new piece of lab equipment, is there some brand/type of LA in the "pro" Saleae price range that wouldn't get me laughed at by the purchasing department?

[Smokey]

I'll take function over form for the vast majority of things.  Many engineers I talk to share my opinion on this.  I don't really care what something looks like if it does its job well.  And in fact, I get kind of mad knowing that a company added extra expense, and therefore cost, to a product for the sole purpose of making is visually attractive.  Passing that on to me and forcing me to pay more is not cool.  If it has some functional purpose and is also elegant that's fine but beyond that it really turns me off as a customer.  Having lost most faith in non-technical humanity, they can keep wasting their money on shiney things they don't understand with no substance like good consumer monkeys.  But if you are going to market something with a specific technical use to a technical customer, especially in a market you don't have cornered, you better have good value for the price.

The machined aluminum cases is kind of wanky and just extra cost without any extra function.  Not a significant number of people were buying a Saleae LA BECAUSE of the aluminum case.  That means they could have used plastic and kept the price the same and increased their profit like many people here have said.  You can only get away with lower profit margins due to non-funtional added cost if you are going to make it up in sales volume.  Otherwise you better decrease your manufacturing cost and raise your profit as much as you can or you won't survive.  The "Apple business model" is not something that should be copied by everyone.  Apple wasn't successful because of Steve Jobs vision of artistic purity.  They were successful because they got lucky and had a great marketing team.  Then after that they rode the wave of consumer monkeyism.

The way product design decisions are made within a company don't match the way you think they do (or should) as written above.  Companies don't set prices based on what their costs are.  It comes from the other end... you figure out what the absolute maximum is that you can charge for a product, and then you do your best to keep costs as low as possible.   Beautiful design commands a higher price every time... people can say "I don't care about that", but they do - even if just subconsciously.  We all desire certain cars that aren't Ford Fiestas (or whatever the smallest size/most efficient model is).  We want pretty metal cased mobile phones, flashy watches, leather jackets, Mercedes' and such.  We might say we don't care about such things - but it's a universal truth that none of us are exceptions to.

In the case of Salae, you can buy a cheap plastic case logic analyzer for a fraction of the price of the Salae unit.  They are selling a premium product and it needs to look like it.  It's not that the metal anodized case adds functionality, or that people rationalize the cost difference on the basis of the housing - it's that people say "oooooh, pretty shiny object - I want it!" and they buy it.

I bet you do it too... just like I do... even if you don't realize it

EEVBlog has been having some problem with dropping the connection when I hit preview after I type a reply.  This was the first time it actually dropped the connection AND didn't let me hit the back button and retrieve what I wrote.  Gotta retype.

I had this whole analogy about cars that I removed from my last post. It went pretty much like, you may lust after a Lamborghini, but even if you had the cash you would be insane to buy one if you planned to use it as your daily driver on a hour+ commute through stop and go traffic every day.  You would get the Prius like every other sane person.

There is a right tool for the job, and that tool is the one that gets the job done well with the least extra expense for the person doing the job.  Saleae isn't marketing to the consumer monkey group who's first question at the car dealer is "can I plug my IPod into it?".  They also aren't marketing to the professional engineer at a company with an engineering budget who already has an HP/Agilent/Keysight stand alone logic analyzer.  They are marketign to the engineer who doens't have a real budget or doesn't need the power of a Keysight box, or hobbiests who need a specific tool for a specfic job.  Both of these groups of customers should be able to read a data sheet and understand the type of performance value they are getting for their money.

If you itemized the cost down for the customer, and offered the "fancy looking machined aluminum case" as an optional extra for an extra $50, damn near no one would buy it.  If the price is too high, people will look elsewhere for the same functionality as witnessed by the chinese Saleae knockoffs and how many people use those.

For another example of this same principal, look at how many people here on this forum buy Owon gear?  Now tell me with a straight face that if Owon took the exact same electronics and put it in machined titanium cases and started charging Tektronics prices that people would still buy the Owon....

[dannyf]

if Owon took the exact same electronics and put it in machined titanium cases and started charging Tektronics prices that people would still buy the Owon....

Depending on what you meant by "people": I am 99.999999% sure someone somewhere somehow will want to buy that Tekronicalized Owon - people are diverse and their needs are diverse so it is very difficult to rule out that.

But that question is irrelevant in this discussion: no one can build a sustainable business selling Owon at Tektronics prices.

But that don't think that's Saleae's problem: their downfall isn't selling overpriced pretty products. Their downfall is selling the product with minimum value-add while giving away their most value-add product.

[Smokey]

Their downfall is selling the product with minimum value-add while giving away their most value-add product.

I agree with that. 
They are essentially stuck with the business model they started with at this point.  The point I was trying to make is that by using a machined aluminum case for the sake of having some "bling" they increased their parts cost and lowered their profits per unit.  Since they are increasing their prices to their customers now, that means they aren't making a good enough profit per unit, or aren't selling enough units.  Increasing the prices is just going to piss customers off when they could have started out with lower prices and plastic cases and sold even more units.

Now if I'm totally wrong about engineers caring more about function than form, Saleae should start selling more units now that they increased their prices since high price must equal better... right?  Or they can go to titanium and sell even more units than that!

[LabSpokane]

Saleae could dump the aluminum case tomorrow and sell bare boards with cables and it wouldn't change their situation much at all. It's the software that they are *not* selling that's the issue.

[coppice]

Saleae could dump the aluminum case tomorrow and sell bare boards with cables and it wouldn't change their situation much at all. It's the software that they are *not* selling that's the issue.

Why would a tiny instrument like this have a metal case in the first place? Metal cases for big instrument that don't move are great. Metal cases for little gadgets that sit close to the target device, and slide around the bench, are a menace. The case needs to insulate.

[zapta]

What's the deal with the metal case? It can't add too much to the product cost, especially if you consider the setup cost of a plastic mold. On the other hand, it may add to the image of the company and help justifying the steep cost of the product.

[LabSpokane]

It's surprising to me how focused everyone is in the metal case.  The soft case probably costs more than the tiny, metal box. Plastic is cheaper in volume, but comes with its own peccadillos from a management and overhead perspective. 

[Corporate666]

There is a right tool for the job, and that tool is the one that gets the job done well with the least extra expense for the person doing the job.

But that's the rational engineer viewpoint - and consumers aren't rational engineers.  Neither are engineers.  If we were, we would all buy the lowest price car that performs the transportation function.  There would be no BMW's, Mercedes, or Audi's.  There would be only one vehicle in each segment - it would be the least expensive option that gets the job done.

But I'd wager that just about nobody on this site own the car that was the least expensive choice in achieving their transportation needs.  Because we don't choose what we need over what we want.  We go for what we want almost all the time.  That's the whole idea behind branding.  People buy a brand because they associate various characteristics and values with a brand, and they feel those characteristics and values match those of themselves, OR (perhaps more importantly) match the characteristics and values they wish they had. 

So millions of us run out and buy the new Tiger Woods golf clubs because we want to be Tiger Woods.  Or we buy the Lance Armstrong TDF winning cycling outfit replica, because we wish we were like him.  Or your wife buys a Chanel or Gucci bag, or you buy anything other than a $3 watch.

The Salae case doesn't cost $50.  It probably costs them $5 or less in total to add to their product.  But if they dropped it and cut the cost to the bare bones - then they are no different than the Chinese POS supplier.  And there is just no way Salae can compete with the Chinese guy selling logic analyzers for $10.  They differentiate by going upmarket.  But that alone isn't enough - they have to build a brand and make people want to buy into the brand.  They do that with a certain look and feel that carries across their brand.  That's the reason they have a very schmick (as Dave would say) website, schmick software and schmick hardware.  It's all part of the brand that they want people to buy into.

And many, many do - even intelligent engineers.  Because we all want to buy beautiful things.

[Corporate666]

They are essentially stuck with the business model they started with at this point.  The point I was trying to make is that by using a machined aluminum case for the sake of having some "bling" they increased their parts cost and lowered their profits per unit.  Since they are increasing their prices to their customers now, that means they aren't making a good enough profit per unit, or aren't selling enough units.  Increasing the prices is just going to piss customers off when they could have started out with lower prices and plastic cases and sold even more units.

You're hung up on this idea that the aluminum case increased their cost and lowered their profits.

It just simply doesn't work like that.  Companies don't sit around and figure out their costs... then add "a reasonable margin" and price their products that way.   Not unless you are selling a total commodity like oil or orange juice.

What the market will pay is unrelated to what something costs to make.  There are countless products that don't get made because the amount that people will pay for them is lower than their cost to manufacture.  So Salae doing away with the aluminum case would have absolutely no effect on their retail price, other than the fact that it isn't then pitched as a top-shelf bit of kit with a top-shelf price.

And then they are competing with the Chinese, and may as well just close the doors and shut off the lights.

[cosmicray]

It just simply doesn't work like that.  Companies don't sit around and figure out their costs... then add "a reasonable margin" and price their products that way.

Of course, but the question is how much more money could they have made if they used a cheaper plastic case, and then charged their customers less while still making the same overall profit.

If the marketing / sales-advantage of using the milled Al case outweighs the cost of the case, then the point is moot. The Chinese have proven that they can make something that looks like an iPhone. It just doesn't behave the same way. That is the challenge that Saleae is facing ... how to look like it's worth that price, and how to deliver that level of real value (while putting enough alligators in the moat to keep the imitators away).

[alank2]

Companies don't sit around and figure out their costs...

Some probably do and some probably don't.  If you have a product that will only sell at a certain price point, and there may be many factors determining that such as competition or usefulness, you may have to have a certain price point and then your only other option is to work out the cost side so that you have a profitable endeavor.

Personally I think the metal case is brilliant from a marketing and aesthetic point of view.  Did you guys see the video Dave had recently?  The Saleae looked very nice and the plastic one looked very terrible.  I realize this has nothing to do with their features and capability, but it is still human nature to want something nice.  If it costs them $10-$15 bucks more and separates them from their competition, that is a smart choice.

The thing is with Saleae that you don't just get a metal case.  You get a 6 month return privilege, 3 year warranty, the guys who made it advising you how to use it, and software that is multi platform AND you can write analzyers for it, and it is easy to learn and flexible.  Sure there are always improvements to be made, and one great thing about this recent year with Saleae is that they are pumped about it.  The software has really grown from what it was, and it is still simple to use.

[MarkL]

The metal case may also have been done for heat dissipation, at least for the newer models.  I have the Pro-16, and it does get warm (about 32C).

EDIT: Updated temp from 30C to 32C.  My probe hadn't reached equilibrium yet,

[IanB]

The thing is with Saleae that you don't just get a metal case.  You get a 6 month return privilege, 3 year warranty, the guys who made it advising you how to use it, and software that is multi platform AND you can write analzyers for it, and it is easy to learn and flexible.  Sure there are always improvements to be made, and one great thing about this recent year with Saleae is that they are pumped about it.  The software has really grown from what it was, and it is still simple to use.

The real thing is you need to know your market. If Saleae's sales are being eaten into by cheap clones that don't provide all of those added values, then Saleae is apparently not addressing market demand in an accurate way.

You can find examples where vendors say, "You have to buy our premium priced product with features you don't want, because we are the only choice you have, so pay up or go without." This may seem good for the sellers, but it causes customers to buy with a bitter taste in their mouth, and your customers certainly won't like you, nor will they be willing to give you repeat business.

If I don't want a metal case, a 6 month return option, a 3 year warranty, or extensive support, where do I go? Presumably I go to the competition.

[alank2]

If I don't want a metal case, a 6 month return option, a 3 year warranty, or extensive support, where do I go? Presumably I go to the competition.

Indeed; that is the market all right.  Each person chooses with their own $$$

[Bassman59]

It just simply doesn't work like that.  Companies don't sit around and figure out their costs... then add "a reasonable margin" and price their products that way.

Of course, but the question is how much more money could they have made if they used a cheaper plastic case, and then charged their customers less while still making the same overall profit.

To do the "cheaper" plastic case, they'd have to pay for the molds and a minimum-quantity order which may have been more than they could afford or reasonably expect to sell. They may very well have a local shop who can CNC mill the enclosures out of aluminum blanks, and the cost works out in their favor.

[Smokey]

If I don't want a metal case, a 6 month return option, a 3 year warranty, or extensive support, where do I go? Presumably I go to the competition.

Indeed; that is the market all right.  Each person chooses with their own $$$

+1

[MattSR]

I purchased the Saleae and I think it's great. I'm sure there are analysers that could do what I want at a cheaper price, but, I like the design of the software, the device, and the fact that you have direct support from the engineers working on the product. You certainly don't get that with the cheap Chinese devices

[Rigby]

What's the deal with the metal case? It can't add too much to the product cost, especially if you consider the setup cost of a plastic mold. On the other hand, it may add to the image of the company and help justifying the steep cost of the product.

Machined cases are a lot less spendy than they used to be.  They're about the same price as injection molding, according to Dangerous Prototypes.

In addition to being very nice, it is likely a bit of a heat sink on longer captures.

[Smokey]

...Machined cases are a lot less spendy than they used to be.  They're about the same price as injection molding, according to Dangerous Prototypes....

I couldn't find the reference on Dangerous Prototypes.  Do you have a link? 

One unknown is how many Logics Saleae actually manufacturers.  That will have a pretty big influence on the price breakdown of both types of cases. 

[coppice]

I purchased the Saleae and I think it's great. I'm sure there are analysers that could do what I want at a cheaper price, but, I like the design of the software, the device, and the fact that you have direct support from the engineers working on the product. You certainly don't get that with the cheap Chinese devices

That depends a lot on how good your Chinese is. Only last week we got very satisfactory support for a cheap logic analyser, by instant messaging, from its actual developer in Beijing.

[MattSR]

That depends a lot on how good your Chinese is. Only last week we got very satisfactory support for a cheap logic analyser, by instant messaging, from its actual developer in Beijing.

Absolutely, I don't know Chinese which is why I'm happy to pay for the Saleae

[zapta]

In addition to being very nice, it is likely a bit of a heat sink on longer captures.

That's a good point.

[Rigby]

...Machined cases are a lot less spendy than they used to be.  They're about the same price as injection molding, according to Dangerous Prototypes....

I couldn't find the reference on Dangerous Prototypes.  Do you have a link? 

There was a link earlier in this thread somewhere. 

This is it: http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=59389#p59389

edit: added link.

[cosmicray]

...Machined cases are a lot less spendy than they used to be.  They're about the same price as injection molding, according to Dangerous Prototypes....

I couldn't find the reference on Dangerous Prototypes.  Do you have a link?

This may be the thread ...
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6760&p=59369

[Smokey]

Cool.  Thanks.  That's interesting stuff.  It will be very interesting to see what the final price is for one of those cases in small batches.

One thing I don't get is from this quote from the link:
"I ... recall an interview where Joe says because of Apple milled aluminum is as cheap as injection molding for small runs. "

I'm not sure how apple using milled aluminum really makes that process any cheaper though.  It's not like they invented a new way to machine aluminum.  It's still setup time, and machine time, and cleanup time, and anodize time, and pack and ship time.  You can't really cut those corners.  If what he's trying to say is that for small quantities the cost of a injection molding die is more than paying the high unit cost of machining aluminum, then ya I can probably believe that, but the question then is how many do you plan to make over the lifetime of the product?

[Rigby]

I'm not sure how apple using milled aluminum really makes that process any cheaper though.  It's not like they invented a new way to machine aluminum.  It's still setup time, and machine time, and cleanup time, and anodize time, and pack and ship time.  You can't really cut those corners.  If what he's trying to say is that for small quantities the cost of a injection molding die is more than paying the high unit cost of machining aluminum, then ya I can probably believe that, but the question then is how many do you plan to make over the lifetime of the product?

It doesn't matter if you (or me, or anyone) can't work out how the price dropped.  Apparently, it dropped.

The process probably isn't cheaper, you're right.  But, I'll bet there are a lot more places around doing aluminum molding & milling, and competition alone will drive the price down.  So, probably, margins have gone down, and that could be why it's less expensive, now.

[zapta]

That tiny aluminum case gets a lot of attention. Saleae was right in their decision to use it.

[MattSR]

Saleae give a little more insight into the manufacturing issues and their workarounds in this article here:- http://support.saleae.com/hc/en-us/articles/203233219-Current-Shipping-Status

They seem to be using a combination of in house and contract manufacturing to get through their backlog of orders.

Cheers,
Matt

[Rigby]

Transparency is refreshing and awesome.

[abaxas]

You have to laugh.... they cant make the original product while the chinese cloners can.

WTF

[MattSR]

Not quite - saleae stopped making the original product a year or so ago. The problems they are having are with the gen 2 products which are locked down and haven't been cloned. After the original was cloned umpteen times, they put a lot of effort into securing the new products!!

[pickle9000]

So was the case design original?

I see similar case styles for stuff from time to time.

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_BIN=1&_nkw=Amlogic+S802&rt=nc&_pppn=r1&LH_FS=1

[Galenbo]

Machined cases are a lot less spendy than they used to be.  They're about the same price as injection molding, according to Dangerous Prototypes.

The main reason why your quote is false, is that you dont' mention numbers.

-100 parts /run or 100.000 parts/run ?
-lead time 3 days or 3 weeks ?
-number of variations ?
-...

[LabSpokane]

For all the pissing, moaning, and controversy over a dinky ass metal box with four screws, Saleae should start selling a DIY papier-mâché case.

Sheesh...

[pickle9000]

Machined cases are a lot less spendy than they used to be.  They're about the same price as injection molding, according to Dangerous Prototypes.

The main reason why your quote is false, is that you dont' mention numbers.

-100 parts /run or 100.000 parts/run ?
-lead time 3 days or 3 weeks ?
-number of variations ?
-...

I'm sure that cost relates to the cost of getting the mold cut for the machine. Even a very simple one can be 3000.00, they have to fit the injection machine. Once done for items like this super low cost to produce. 

[MattSR]

So was the case design original?

I see similar case styles for stuff from time to time.

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_BIN=1&_nkw=Amlogic+S802&rt=nc&_pppn=r1&LH_FS=1

Yeah - I first noticed it when looking at the app icons on my iPhone, then I looked at an Apple TV and a Mac Mini - they all seem to have similar geometry..

[pickle9000]

So was the case design original?

I see similar case styles for stuff from time to time.

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_BIN=1&_nkw=Amlogic+S802&rt=nc&_pppn=r1&LH_FS=1

Yeah - I first noticed it when looking at the app icons on my iPhone, then I looked at an Apple TV and a Mac Mini - they all seem to have similar geometry..

Not much of an apple follower so no wonder I missed it. It is a nice look.

Just a thought, pretty amazing that there are not boxes like that sold on ebay or elsewhere in the Chinese market. They are stackable by nature, expandable center section, insert on one side (clear, red, blue perspex) of center section, top and bottom with an inset for a sticker. Could be used for a massive number of consumer grade products.

[Corporate666]

I'm not sure how apple using milled aluminum really makes that process any cheaper though.  It's not like they invented a new way to machine aluminum.  It's still setup time, and machine time, and cleanup time, and anodize time, and pack and ship time.  You can't really cut those corners.  If what he's trying to say is that for small quantities the cost of a injection molding die is more than paying the high unit cost of machining aluminum, then ya I can probably believe that, but the question then is how many do you plan to make over the lifetime of the product?

It doesn't matter if you (or me, or anyone) can't work out how the price dropped.  Apparently, it dropped.

The process probably isn't cheaper, you're right.  But, I'll bet there are a lot more places around doing aluminum molding & milling, and competition alone will drive the price down.  So, probably, margins have gone down, and that could be why it's less expensive, now.

The price of CNC machining has gone down over the years, but it's got nothing to do with Apple.  Apple are at the front of the curve in terms of volume and the cost benefits you can get from efficiency, but they haven't pioneered any new manufacturing technologies that have changed anything, AFAIK.

Milling aluminum is all about how fast you can spin the spindle and how accurately you can move the axes into the spindle to cut the metal.  There are things around that didn't exist 20 years ago, like air/oil lube, ceramic bearings, 60,000rpm spindles, linear motors and more.  The newest machines can accelerate/decelerate their axes at over 2G's and can move and feed into the material at 2,000 inches per minute.  Combined with 24k, 30k, 40k and higher spindles, that means parts that used to take 10 minutes to machine could now be machined in 2 or 3 minutes.  In addition, software and electronics have kept up - you need a pretty fast processor to crunch all the numbers, read all the data and carefully move the motors in tiny increments and get accurate results.  That's only happened in the past 10 years, really.

FWIW, Apple was using tons of Fanuc Robodrills, and they were also buying up all the small VMC's and Drill/Tap centers they could get their hands on. 

The other thing that has driven costs down is just as the segment goes higher end, the cost of lower end machinery and processes drops.  Right now there is a lot of advancement in multi-axis machining, cutting tools, materials and coatings.  But milling aluminum is about as plain-jane as it gets, and anyone with a VMC can do it.

If Salae is getting decent pricing, I can't imagine those little housings costing more than $2-3 which would include the anodizing. 

You have to make a LOT of them before injection molding becomes cheaper. 

[Galenbo]

If Salae is getting decent pricing, I can't imagine those little housings costing more than $2-3 which would include the anodizing. 

You have to make a LOT of them before injection molding becomes cheaper.

Like, for example, 100.000 units. Or 10.000 units. Depending on a lot of details, project specific.

There's another important dimension to the definition of that number, or choice: The amount of variations.
Within reasonable assumptions and normal circomstances, you can easily have 1 model with 10 variations on a CNC, and not on injection moulding.

This means raw posing, testing, ejection and quality control stays the same, the only difference is making 2 instead of 1 hole for the connector of the Logic4 or Logic8.
On injection molding you mostly need a second mould.