Anyone have a wind turbine in a residential area, how well does it work?

[Red Squirrel]

I've been toying with the idea of getting a prebuilt or building a wind turbine, something in the 1-2kw range.  I live in a somewhat dense neighborhood so there are trees and other obstructions and possibly bylaws on how tall something can be.  I see people with radio towers so I think the laws are probably reasonable and I could probably do like 50-100feet which would get me over the roof tops but not all the trees.   Obviously these are all details I'd have to find out.   

Just wondering if anyone has experimented with wind turbines in such environment, and how well did it work?  We don't get a lot of wind here, but we do get some.  We probably get more wind than we get sun.  I'm in Northern Ontario if curious.   There's a small turbine (2kw or so I believe) at the recreation lake here and I see it spinning most of the time even in relatively low winds.   My goal is to eventually go solar and wind, as both combined could potentially be enough to go off grid or at least put a decent dent in the hydro bill.   I imagine the rating of a turbine is also if it's practically a hurricane, so I'd expect to get maybe half or less of it's actual rating.   Also, is VAWT better for a potentially turbulent residential environment or is horizontal still better? 

[tautech]

I can't think of anything else other that repeated shooting or scrambling bike to quickly get you offside with your neighbors.
In a rural setting maybe although one that was 1 km away from me powering a electric stock fence could easily be heard for a few km howling in strong winds.
Local bylaws may prevent wind turbine installation on account of noise whereas antennae make little unless wind is high and their noise is mostly less than the wind noise anyway.
Best advice would be to get noise specs of any turbine you wish to use, pics too and installation proposal details and spend some time at your local authority to check you'll be complying with their bylaws.

[Seekonk]

Those things are death traps.  I'm on a RE site and I've seen many that have lost blades.

[dr.diesel]

How much dirt do you own?  A 100' self supporting tower capable of holding a 2kw turbine would probably cost $30k.  Do you have the room for a guyed tower?

[Red Squirrel]

I don't know the exact dimensions but I don't think I'd have room for guyed tower and it would probably end up just as expensive given the need for strong concrete footings for each cable, as opposed to just one bigger footing.  I'd probably go with a tubular one, basically like the giant ones you see in big cities, except smaller.  I was looking at them real quick and some can be had for about 20k.  If I was to go for building something custom I'd probably look at using something similar to what they'd use for a large parking lot lamp post.  No idea where a civilian would buy something like that though.  I'm just kind of considerating this project, did not get into details yet. May not happen.   I imagine a few grand for the cement footing.  I'd also need the tower to be designed in a way that I can climb it, as I'd need to do maintenance on the turbine. Greasing bearings etc.

Also what kind of noise do they actually produce?  I always figured they'd be pretty quiet as it's moving relatively slow.  I guess the gear box would make some noise as it speeds up for the alternator?

I don't have nowhere near the money saved up for such a project so mostly just something I'd like to do in the far future.  I'd probably go solar first, or do both at same time as part of a bigger project.   Hydro prices are increasing at an alarming rate, so I need to figure something out.  I could even put it on credit.  I'd have to do the math and figure out what's best.  I just know that at some point I won't be able to actually afford to pay for electricity anymore.  It may take 10-15 years but that point will eventually hit.

[CatalinaWOW]

There are wind maps available which will show you the average wind speed in your area, often broken down by month.  You can use these to figure out how much potential wind power there is in your area with a turbine of given diameter.

The power availability calculators/tables out there either assume you are out of the ground turbulence region, or show a huge penalty in recoverable power for low hight mountings.  Ideally you want to be something like twice the hight of the variable objects around you.  (If you are in a field of trees all 100 feet tall you might need to be only 120 feet up, but if you have open ground and trees at all hights between 0 and 100 feet you would want a 200 foot tower.).

Noise is highly dependent on blade and turbine design, but many are very loud and annoying, and just like radio towers you will be blamed for every weird pet death, electronic failure, internet dropout and whatever else you can think of.

[nowlan]

Wind Turbines need smooth wind, so need a clearing away from obstructions such as trees houses etc. Can't find the rule of thumb at the moment, but they are generally crap in residential areas. Height vs surroundings.

You would be better off spending money on an anemometer to do a site survey, and see how much wind, and how regular it is throughout the year, before committing to buying anything. Ideally something that logs, so you can monitor for a few months and analyze.

[Kleinstein]

Wind turbines are somewhat noisy, so the neighbors and the regulations may not like them in residential areas. Also wind is only producing power for something like 50% of the time - so you need a backup / storage too.

Usually larger turbines get a little more cost efficient. The large ones are just competitive when they can use all there power. So a small 2 KW turbine only used when electricity is needed can not compete with the electricity price in a area where the grid is already there, unless you have a very windy place, like on a mountain top or at the coast.

[Red Squirrel]

50% is better than the ~10% I'd get with solar. (our winters are very long and days are very short during that time)  Though I would definitely need to take some kind of wind assessment and find out about bylaws and all that stuff.  We barely get any sun here and our days are very short in winter.   I could probably do solar and just have a really big battery bank.  Maybe it makes more sense to take the 20-30k it would probably cost to put in a turbine, and put it in solar and batteries.    Solar has gotten pretty cheap, so it's definitely something I should start saving up on, it would still work well in summer, just not that great in winter.  Would also need to figure out an automated system to push snow off.  But I could always just get in the habit of doing it each morning.

[CatalinaWOW]

Maybe the best answer is that I have seen residential wind turbines in many rural places in my travels in North America.  I have seen a total of two in urban/suburban situations, and both were defunct.  A wind turbine sticks out like a sore thumb so I suspect if they were there I would have seen them.   I knew the owner of one of the two.  It was defunct when he purchased the property, and he was never sufficiently motivated to perform required repairs on the blades.  He had spoken to neighbors who were glad he wasn't restoring it.  Apparently that one was pretty noisy.  I don't know the story on the other.  I suspect there is a message in these observations.

[zapta]

Anyone have a wind turbine in a residential area, how well does it work?

Check this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0077QPPGO

Not fun.

[Silveruser]

Here is a start on some regs, it's a few years old.  I'd start with local bylaws these might limit size, I'm pretty sure there are limits here (NS) that only permit small turbines for residential use.

http://www.csagroup.org/documents/codes-and-standards/standards/energy/CSAGuidetoCanadianWindTurbineCodes.pdf

George

[mtdoc]

From what I've learned from those who live off grid with wind (usually combined with PV) power - small scale wind can be viable but the locations were it is are limited.

1. You need regular sustained winds - not just occasional gusty conditions.

2. Your turbine needs to be located well above any surrounding structures or trees. Generally not true in residential areas. How high a tower can you build?

3. Wind turbines are mechanical beasts that require regular maintenance - i.e. the tower has to be climbed and the turbine regularly taken down for routine maintenance.

Bottom line -for residential areas - rooftop PV is the only RE that generally makes any sense.

[CJay]

Seem to remember seeing a report that claimed wind turbines in urban areas were a waste of time for a good variety of reasons.

It would have related to a European definition of urban which may not be the same as a Canadian definition and the turbines they were talking about were at the bottom end of your range but the results were pretty damning.

Basically the turbines had to work at peak efficiency for a significantly greater percentage of time than was ever possible due to the effects of the urban environment making the available wind 'dirty'.

Personally, I think Solar would be the way to go unless you have space for *lots* of turbine.

[fourtytwo]

If your in the UK like me your probably in trouble straight away due to the strict rules governing height vs distance from boundaries. I had a so called 500W unit up about 8 metres but it was nowhere near high enough to get into clean air, given it was only about 10M from the house I realized it didnt have a chance, spent most of its time turning around its axis confused as to where the wind was coming from and never generated more than 50W (in gusts), I would say urban is a nono unless you have a LOT of land!
Roger

PS try solar

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah more I read on it seems it would not be worth while.  Though would a VAWT work better in a residential setting?  They are generally way less efficient though.  I do want to look at solar too but problem with that is it would only really work well for a few months of the year, after that, we just don't get enough sun and days are too short, and it would be lot of work to clear snow off every winter morning.  Though I could try to automate that with some kind of mechanical plow system that pushes the snow off. I imagine it will slide off decently as long as it's not wet snow. That stuff is a beast.  Freezing rain would also be a write off for the rest of the winter, good luck trying to take that off without damaging them.   I also don't have much room, I'd have to measure my roof but there's only like one section that would be viable due to no shadows, and I don't think I have room for more than 1-2kw worth.   I MAY be able to put some on the west facing wall though, but in winter I think the shadow of the neighbor's house would hit that.  In summer it does not though. I was outside the other day and realized thta a whole section had full sunlight for a while.

My ultimate goal is to try to go fully off grid, but I don't think it will happen on this property.  Not enough room or resources.   Hydro prices are just getting ridiculous, they have like 5 price hikes planned in the next few months, it's gotten completely out of hand.  The only way to actually save is to go off grid completely as it's the fixed fees where they get you.  Sadly I would not be surprised if it's illegal to go off grid... they know how to get you.  I guess you can just not pay and get disconnected for non payment. You technically still have the service.

[uncle_bob]

Yeah more I read on it seems it would not be worth while.  Though would a VAWT work better in a residential setting?  They are generally way less efficient though.  I do want to look at solar too but problem with that is it would only really work well for a few months of the year, after that, we just don't get enough sun and days are too short, and it would be lot of work to clear snow off every winter morning.  Though I could try to automate that with some kind of mechanical plow system that pushes the snow off. I imagine it will slide off decently as long as it's not wet snow. That stuff is a beast.  Freezing rain would also be a write off for the rest of the winter, good luck trying to take that off without damaging them.   I also don't have much room, I'd have to measure my roof but there's only like one section that would be viable due to no shadows, and I don't think I have room for more than 1-2kw worth.   I MAY be able to put some on the west facing wall though, but in winter I think the shadow of the neighbor's house would hit that.  In summer it does not though. I was outside the other day and realized thta a whole section had full sunlight for a while.

My ultimate goal is to try to go fully off grid, but I don't think it will happen on this property.  Not enough room or resources.   Hydro prices are just getting ridiculous, they have like 5 price hikes planned in the next few months, it's gotten completely out of hand.  The only way to actually save is to go off grid completely as it's the fixed fees where they get you.  Sadly I would not be surprised if it's illegal to go off grid... they know how to get you.  I guess you can just not pay and get disconnected for non payment. You technically still have the service.

Hi

Just about anywhere in the world, the regs will "encourage" you to only erect a tower like structure that is short enough to fall within the boundaries of your lot. That's not just for turbines, but it does apply to them. In this case I'd bet they look at the tip of the blade as the "height" not the supporting tower.

Most urban / suburban areas already have housing on the lots that (effectively) violates this height rule. The assumption is that the house isn't going to tip over. The gotcha is that getting "well above" that clutter aerodynamically ... not so much.

Rules on this stuff generally fall into multiple categories. Municipalities have building codes, so do states / provinces. In some cases the national government gets into the act (think airport approaches). On top of that some places (like the house I am now in) have covenants placed on them that restrict this sort of thing.

Turbines are far from quiet, even more so if they are doing anything useful. They also are not very pretty. The two make it likely the neighbors *will* complain. What ever obscure rules there are, will be dug up. That's all *after* you have invested in the deal. Not a good thing at all.

At least around here, a 50% number for "full output" is a bit optimistic. If I was on the top of a ridge, maybe not. Down where I live, it is well under 30%. That's looking at the amount of time I get full output *plus* the useful output I get when below full output.

I agree with your decision to look at other alternatives.

Bob

[CJay]

50% is better than the ~10% I'd get with solar. (our winters are very long and days are very short during that time)  Though I would definitely need to take some kind of wind assessment and find out about bylaws and all that stuff.  We barely get any sun here and our days are very short in winter.   I could probably do solar and just have a really big battery bank.  Maybe it makes more sense to take the 20-30k it would probably cost to put in a turbine, and put it in solar and batteries.    Solar has gotten pretty cheap, so it's definitely something I should start saving up on, it would still work well in summer, just not that great in winter.  Would also need to figure out an automated system to push snow off.  But I could always just get in the habit of doing it each morning.

Solar doesn't just work in sunlight, it works during daylight hours, albeit at lower power so if there's daylight it will generate electricity.

I believe it's domestic heating which is most energy intensive so it may be worth looking into ground source (which will require power to work) and solar water heating which could also gather useful amounts of heat even in non sunny daylight and you could reduce your reliance on grid power which may make other electricity generation technologies viable.

Of course, it's far better to not lose the heat in the first place so investigate ultra high efficiency insulation as well. There are houses here in the UK that have zero heating costs because they're so well insulated.

This may well not be possible where you are (I',m guessing near or in Arctic circle from your long winter, short days comment) but it's worth spending some time to find out. 

[uncle_bob]

Hi

One basic issue is that if you are under 6 feet of snow 6 months of the year (yes that's a joke) ... you also have a pretty massive energy need for heating. Simply pulling the electricity off of that process may be the easy answer. Exactly how you best do that depends a *lot* on how your heating system works. Oil, gas, and wood each have their own issues when you do this. I'm guessing you don't heat with electricity if you are only looking for 2 KW to go off grid.

Bob

[Kleinstein]

A 50% time fraction for full output would be very optimistic - maybe somewhere on an island or high montain. Inland it's more like 50% of the time to get some power, but 25% of the nominal power on average. With solar it's more like 10% of nominal on average and mayby 20% of the time some useful power.  In both cases less / no power at night - which may be a good thing as there is usually low demand.

The populated part of Canada is not that far north - the UK is not better in that respect, they just have less snow. When it comes to use solar power to work in winter as well, and not just for highest overall output over the year, one needs to mount the panels rather steep, like an 50-60 deg angle. So snow will not accumulate there most of the time.

Anyway as the renewables are not competitive on a large scale, I will not be in a small scale unless you have high costs to build the line to your house, like in a very remote place. Even with high taxes it's hard to impossible to beat the grid if it's already there. So it might be better to reduce the demand.

[Red Squirrel]

50% is better than the ~10% I'd get with solar. (our winters are very long and days are very short during that time)  Though I would definitely need to take some kind of wind assessment and find out about bylaws and all that stuff.  We barely get any sun here and our days are very short in winter.   I could probably do solar and just have a really big battery bank.  Maybe it makes more sense to take the 20-30k it would probably cost to put in a turbine, and put it in solar and batteries.    Solar has gotten pretty cheap, so it's definitely something I should start saving up on, it would still work well in summer, just not that great in winter.  Would also need to figure out an automated system to push snow off.  But I could always just get in the habit of doing it each morning.

Solar doesn't just work in sunlight, it works during daylight hours, albeit at lower power so if there's daylight it will generate electricity.

I believe it's domestic heating which is most energy intensive so it may be worth looking into ground source (which will require power to work) and solar water heating which could also gather useful amounts of heat even in non sunny daylight and you could reduce your reliance on grid power which may make other electricity generation technologies viable.

Of course, it's far better to not lose the heat in the first place so investigate ultra high efficiency insulation as well. There are houses here in the UK that have zero heating costs because they're so well insulated.

This may well not be possible where you are (I',m guessing near or in Arctic circle from your long winter, short days comment) but it's worth spending some time to find out.

Insulation, well vapor barrier to be exact is the main issue with this house, it's old, and any places that I've taken outside wall apart I saw the terrible vapor barrier taping job they did.  So this house leaks a lot.    I'm in Northern Ontario, so in winter the days are super short, so there would not be enough time to charge a decent size battery bank with the 1-2kw that I have room for (MAY be able to squeeze 3). I would also need a very large bank to handle the non sun hours, as idealy I'd want to try to not discharge past 80%.   Though a lot of things could be done to reduce power usage, like removing phantom loads.  Heck, even GFCIs use a half decent amount of power and I could just keep those off, I have not measured one but I noticed they get decently warm, so I'd guess like 5 watts. It all adds up.

I heat with gas, but they want to ban that by 2030, which is completely insane as people who do heat with hydro are spending $400+ per month. I don't think it's going to happen though but the fact that it's on the table kinda has me thinking I need to be prepared.   I really want to look into wood as supplementary heat, but that may have it's own issues legally too.  Would be super cheap though, you can legally cut trees here (until they stop that too...) I think you just need a license that's like $50.  Think they want to ban wood stoves as well though.  Basically our provincial leader sold off the hydro company and her/her buddies owns most of the stocks in it and is doing everything to force people to pay more so they can't be independent, so it's a big political mess.

I think really the only thing I can expect from this house/property is to go partial solar.  It could probably at least bring me into a near zero usage state where I'm only paying the fixed fees on the bill and maybe the occasional night time usage, where the rates are not as high.   I could also use AC in summer for practically free, as solar would work very well in summer as the days are very long.  I'd probably get like 12 hours of actual solar hitting sun, if more. 

[uncle_bob]

Hi

There is another option: Move.

Bob

[mtdoc]

With solar it's more like 10% of nominal on average and mayby 20% of the time some useful power. 

I guess it depends on what you're averaging..

In full sun at "normal" temps - say between 15 and 35 degrees C,  you'll get in the neighborhood of 80% output of STC nominal panel wattage.  Wire run losses, CC, battery losses, inverter losses and you might be at 70% at your loads. 

The populated part of Canada is not that far north - the UK is not better in that respect, they just have less snow. When it comes to use solar power to work in winter as well, and not just for highest overall output over the year, one needs to mount the panels rather steep, like an 50-60 deg angle. So snow will not accumulate there most of the time.

Lots of Canadians living off grid with primarily solar PV as a power source.  Winter means cold temps and higher panel output in full sun (when it's shining) - but shorter days (very short or none depending on latitude - mean much lower power overall.

At northern latitudes, panels can be mounted vertical - for full snow shedding and increased output on sunny days with sunlight reflected off of snow.

[uncle_bob]

With solar it's more like 10% of nominal on average and mayby 20% of the time some useful power. 

I guess it depends on what you're averaging..

In full sun at "normal" temps - say between 15 and 35 degrees C,  you'll get in the neighborhood of 80% output of STC nominal panel wattage.  Wire run losses, CC, battery losses, inverter losses and you might be at 70% at your loads. 

The populated part of Canada is not that far north - the UK is not better in that respect, they just have less snow. When it comes to use solar power to work in winter as well, and not just for highest overall output over the year, one needs to mount the panels rather steep, like an 50-60 deg angle. So snow will not accumulate there most of the time.

Lots of Canadians living off grid with primarily solar PV as a power source.  Winter means cold temps and higher panel output in full sun (when it's shining) - but shorter days (very short or none depending on latitude - mean much lower power overall.

At northern latitudes, panels can be mounted vertical - for full snow shedding and increased output on sunny days with sunlight reflected off of snow.

Hi

If a 2 KW system that at best puts out power part of the time is ok, that is something in the 10 to 20 KWH range. That comes out to a monthly bill of 300 to 600 KWH. If load shifting is used, Ontario Hydro will sell you power for 8.7 cents a KWH. That is a monthly bill (just for the power) of $26 to $43. On peak with no load shifting will take that up about 1.5X. The same load shifting gear that you would need for a solar or wind system effectively will save you $10 or so a month. The inevitable taxes add about 20% to the total plus whatever the connect charges are based on your location. Net result, it's tough to see how more than about $80 is being spent a month. If more is being spent, then either the connection charges are unusually high or more power is being used. If more power it being used then the connect charge does not go away. You need power to keep going. The *only* savings in that case will be the raw power plus taxes on that power.

You will be lucky to put a 2KW turbine up on a 100' rigid tower for under $5K. There are fun things like permits, excavation, (maybe) crane rental, and concrete that add into the basic costs.  At a savings of $26 a month, that will pay back (without interest) in 16 years. If you are very lucky, the system might last 15 to 20 years. You will re-battery the system in significantly less than 20 years.

So what is a reasonable payback? In a business environment anything over 5 years is silly. Some places will not go for 2 years. Two years at $26 a month comes out to $624. Batteries plus an inverter system *might* come in at that price.

Simply put - your grid power in Ontario

http://www.ontario-hydro.com/current-rates

is way to cheap for this to make sense.

Bob

[Red Squirrel]

It's not so much the rates that get you but all the other fees.  So the only way for renewable to be viable is if you can go off grid and disconnect completely.  For example, if you don't use a single kwh in a given month, you will still pay a bit over $100 that month.  Basically they'll just charge more for delivery, debt retirement fee, and all the other crap that gets added.

[uncle_bob]

It's not so much the rates that get you but all the other fees.  So the only way for renewable to be viable is if you can go off grid and disconnect completely.  For example, if you don't use a single kwh in a given month, you will still pay a bit over $100 that month.  Basically they'll just charge more for delivery, debt retirement fee, and all the other crap that gets added.

Hi

You save the connect fee if the system you have is adequately sized and adequately reliable to allow you to safely disconnect. Running out of electricity in mid February is ... not good (Yes I've spent time in northern Ontario in February ..).  Generally that gets you into multiple power sources and multiple storage banks. Plus you do a system that is maybe 4X bigger both in storage and energy generation than the "average output" would suggest. You can have several cloudy days in a row or several days with no significant wind.

Your main feed is still far to cheap for this to make economic sense.

Bob

[ciccio]

I heat with gas, but they want to ban that by 2030, which is completely insane as people who do heat with hydro are spending $400+ per month. I don't think it's going to happen though but the fact that it's on the table kinda has me thinking I need to be prepared.   I really want to look into wood as supplementary heat, but that may have it's own issues legally too.  Would be super cheap though, you can legally cut trees here (until they stop that too...) I think you just need a license that's like $50.  Think they want to ban wood stoves as well though.  Basically our provincial leader sold off the hydro company and her/her buddies owns most of the stocks in it and is doing everything to force people to pay more so they can't be independent, so it's a big political mess.

I think really the only thing I can expect from this house/property is to go partial solar.  It could probably at least bring me into a near zero usage state where I'm only paying the fixed fees on the bill and maybe the occasional night time usage, where the rates are not as high.   I could also use AC in summer for practically free, as solar would work very well in summer as the days are very long.  I'd probably get like 12 hours of actual solar hitting sun, if more.

Yust for my information, what is the price of one cubic meter of gas and one kWh of power in your area?
I live in northern Italy, the wheater here is not so bad , I do not use AC, my house is not well insulated and in 2015 I paid:
- 712 Euros (1035 CAN$) for 2564 kWh of electricity  and
- 1345 Euros (1995 CAN$) for 1489 cubic meters of gas (used for cooking, sanitary water and winter heating).

Best regards

 Edit: thanks to a previous poster and a Google search I found the rates for electricity in  Northern America: If the data are correct (do they include every tax and other costs?) they are incredibly cheap.. I pay four times those prices.

[uncle_bob]

I heat with gas, but they want to ban that by 2030, which is completely insane as people who do heat with hydro are spending $400+ per month. I don't think it's going to happen though but the fact that it's on the table kinda has me thinking I need to be prepared.   I really want to look into wood as supplementary heat, but that may have it's own issues legally too.  Would be super cheap though, you can legally cut trees here (until they stop that too...) I think you just need a license that's like $50.  Think they want to ban wood stoves as well though.  Basically our provincial leader sold off the hydro company and her/her buddies owns most of the stocks in it and is doing everything to force people to pay more so they can't be independent, so it's a big political mess.

I think really the only thing I can expect from this house/property is to go partial solar.  It could probably at least bring me into a near zero usage state where I'm only paying the fixed fees on the bill and maybe the occasional night time usage, where the rates are not as high.   I could also use AC in summer for practically free, as solar would work very well in summer as the days are very long.  I'd probably get like 12 hours of actual solar hitting sun, if more.

Yust for my information, what is the price of one cubic meter of gas and one kWh of power in your area?
I live in northern Italy, the wheater here is not so bad , I do not use AC, my house is not well insulated and in 2015 I paid:
- 712 Euros (1035 CAN$) for 2564 kWh of electricity  and
- 1345 Euros (1995 CAN$) for 1489 cubic meters of gas (used for cooking, sanitary water and winter heating).

Best regards

 Edit: thanks to a previous poster and a Google search I found the rates for electricity in  Northern America: If the data are correct (do they include every tax and other costs?) they are incredibly cheap.. I pay four times those prices.

Hi

As the original post notes, the raw cost of energy is not the whole story on the bill you get. Right now North America is awash in cheap natural gas. The market price is indeed dirt cheap. The local energy companies often do very long term contracts for gas. The result ... your local monopoly company might be paying 4X the market price for raw gas. Eventually it equalizes out ... maybe .... Corruption? Never in the US ... .

Bob

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah thing is if I did disconnect hydro I'd probably keep gas, could have a gas generator for when I need to top up the batteries, but idealy I'd want to try to size the system in such a way that it's barely needed - which may be hard due to lack of sun light hours for most of the year.   That's when the idea of wind turbine came to mind, as that can work any time of the day, so even if it's not working all day, it can still put power into the system at night.  I may have to experiment with a small one sitting on the ground just to get a feel for it.  Basically if that does somewhat half decent I know that a big one higher up will do better.

But my main issue is lack of property, so reality is I don't think I can really go full off grid.  I think my first step needs to be to do a solar setup, then run some stuff off it, and see how it goes from there.   It's not a question of if it would pay for itself but a question of when (10,20, 50 years?) as the rates go up multiple times a year so the cost is only going to get more and more expensive over time, while the solar will be a one time cost that may require one time maintenance costs every so often.    By the time I get close to retirement I will probably be paying like $500/mo at the rate the utilities keep going up.   But at that point I may just have to move since taxes will be absurd too.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

All the stuff you could put in, wears out. None of it lasts forever. A 20 year payoff really isn't a payoff if the gizmo wears out in 10 years. I've been the gas fired generator route. There is still regular maintenance you have to do. They are most efficient run full blast. That gets you into battery banks and they wear out a lot faster than you would guess. 365 charge cycles a year adds up pretty quick. As the price of gas vs the price of electric (taxes on both) wanders around, there is no way to know which one is likely cheaper.

Bob

[mtdoc]

People install home solar PV systems, (or small wind or microhydro turbines) for lots of different reasons. No grid power or unreliable grid power is one reason.  Wanting independence from the utility company is another.   The "feel good" nature of generating renewable energy is probably a big incentive for many,

It is very rare IME that people do it solely for financial reasons but in the USA - in many places, state or local utility incentives do make solar PV cost competitive with grid power and allow very short payback times.

[uncle_bob]

People install home solar PV systems, (or small wind or microhydro turbines) for lots of different reasons. No grid power or unreliable grid power is one reason.  Wanting independence from the utility company is another.   The "feel good" nature of generating renewable energy is probably a big incentive for many,

It is very rare IME that people do it solely for financial reasons but in the USA - in many places, state or local utility incentives do make solar PV cost competitive with grid power and allow very short payback times.

Hi

One of the "interesting" side effects of a subsidized system (at least around here) is that repairing them may not make economic sense. I've had several neighbors who essentially have abandoned a system when the repair bill came in 10 years later.

Bob

[CJay]

People install home solar PV systems, (or small wind or microhydro turbines) for lots of different reasons. No grid power or unreliable grid power is one reason.  Wanting independence from the utility company is another.   The "feel good" nature of generating renewable energy is probably a big incentive for many,

It is very rare IME that people do it solely for financial reasons but in the USA - in many places, state or local utility incentives do make solar PV cost competitive with grid power and allow very short payback times.

I would say that until perhaps a year or tweo ago people in the UK installed PV for exactly that reason, financial.

If you own your property and were in a suitable location (south facing I suppose although I've seen many less than optimal installs) you could have solar installed for free by a registered installer under a government grant scheme and then use the feed in tariff which could mean your total electricity spend was zero, saving a *lot* of moeny.

What a lot of people got caught out by was the fact that the system was never theirs and they signed paperwork which meant that their roof was leased to the solar company for the pay off term of the system and in some circumstances even longer  so selling the house was very difficult if not impossible because a lot of mortgage companies would refuse to lend on it.

It was/is basically a scam to take advantage of a massively over subsidised scheme to increase the uptake of 'green' energy.

[uncle_bob]

People install home solar PV systems, (or small wind or microhydro turbines) for lots of different reasons. No grid power or unreliable grid power is one reason.  Wanting independence from the utility company is another.   The "feel good" nature of generating renewable energy is probably a big incentive for many,

It is very rare IME that people do it solely for financial reasons but in the USA - in many places, state or local utility incentives do make solar PV cost competitive with grid power and allow very short payback times.

I would say that until perhaps a year or tweo ago people in the UK installed PV for exactly that reason, financial.

If you own your property and were in a suitable location (south facing I suppose although I've seen many less than optimal installs) you could have solar installed for free by a registered installer under a government grant scheme and then use the feed in tariff which could mean your total electricity spend was zero, saving a *lot* of moeny.

What a lot of people got caught out by was the fact that the system was never theirs and they signed paperwork which meant that their roof was leased to the solar company for the pay off term of the system and in some circumstances even longer  so selling the house was very difficult if not impossible because a lot of mortgage companies would refuse to lend on it.

It was/is basically a scam to take advantage of a massively over subsidised scheme to increase the uptake of 'green' energy.

Hi

Those outfits started to go bankrupt left and right over here when the utility companies got the residential "feed in / feed out" rates adjusted. All of a sudden .. no more cost benefit.

We came *very* close to a situation like that back many decades ago. Then it was peak demand based, but the same sort of scheme. The rates changed before the big hulking system (think diesel locomotive size) ever got installed on the factory. The utility claimed it was a "clarification" and not a rate change. Glad it happened before we were on the hook. The system *had* been delivered by then. It sat there in the parking lot for a *long* time before they hauled it off somewhere else.

Bob

[Red Squirrel]

Found all sorts of interesting stats on my city, this may help to see what is viable as far as wind or solar goes.

https://weatherspark.com/averages/28383/Timmins-Ontario-Canada

Typical wind speed is about 7m/sec.

Hours of sun is about 8h at the lowest and 16h at highest.  Of course for those few months where it's highest (like right now) solar would work well but would be mediocre for rest of year.

I looked into those "free" solar installations, but it just screems "catch".  There's always a catch to stuff that's free.  So if I do solar I'd probably buy the system outright.  I think my best bet is to run it to my server room and have it power my server setup, then if I feel it can do more, I can have it power other stuff too.  Maybe the fridge, furnace (gas) and maybe even central air conditioner given the peak sun is when it's hot.   Would just need to find a proper way to feed stuff around the house while maintaining the ability to switch those items between solar and hydro.   Then in the future if I feel the solar could actually do the whole house I can go bigger and have it do the whole house and have a master transfer switch.  Then if I can manage to keep my hydro usage down to 0 for over a year, I could look into canceling... heard that's not even legal in some places though. But I'll cross that bridge when I get there.  I don't really see off grid happening where I am, realistically.

[uncle_bob]

Found all sorts of interesting stats on my city, this may help to see what is viable as far as wind or solar goes.

https://weatherspark.com/averages/28383/Timmins-Ontario-Canada

Typical wind speed is about 7m/sec.

Hours of sun is about 8h at the lowest and 16h at highest.  Of course for those few months where it's highest (like right now) solar would work well but would be mediocre for rest of year.

I looked into those "free" solar installations, but it just screems "catch".  There's always a catch to stuff that's free.  So if I do solar I'd probably buy the system outright.  I think my best bet is to run it to my server room and have it power my server setup, then if I feel it can do more, I can have it power other stuff too.  Maybe the fridge, furnace (gas) and maybe even central air conditioner given the peak sun is when it's hot.   Would just need to find a proper way to feed stuff around the house while maintaining the ability to switch those items between solar and hydro.   Then in the future if I feel the solar could actually do the whole house I can go bigger and have it do the whole house and have a master transfer switch.  Then if I can manage to keep my hydro usage down to 0 for over a year, I could look into canceling... heard that's not even legal in some places though. But I'll cross that bridge when I get there.  I don't really see off grid happening where I am, realistically.

Hi

The server room has another solution:

Swap out the servers. At least in my case, The PowerEdge servers are a couple of years old. I could cut the power by a lot, simply by going to the newest and greatest. Six or seven servers become two or three. The remaining machines each pull < half what the old ones did.

Bob

[Red Squirrel]

They're already mostly high efficient Supermicros.  The new ones don't draw more than 100w out of the wall, less than workstation with video card.

[uncle_bob]

They're already mostly high efficient Supermicros.  The new ones don't draw more than 100w out of the wall, less than workstation with video card.

Hi

The big savings here was moving things to virtual machines and shutting a bunch of them down. Getting the servers under 30W does help as well.

Bob

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah most of them are VMs.  Home environmental control and firewall is separate, and currently mail is separate, on an old server, I still need to migrate that over and decommission that server.    What uses the most power is the workstations, because of the video cards.  I try to keep my gaming machine off when not in use.

I'm thinking if I go wind or solar the most realistic thing I can probably expect is to power all the servers off it, but not the whole house.

[LabSpokane]

Yeah more I read on it seems it would not be worth while.  Though would a VAWT work better in a residential setting?  They are generally way less efficient though. 

VAWTs are also horribly unreliable. 

As far as small turbines go, the wind power guys call anything under 20kW, "recreational wind."  Those tiny turbines make sense on sailboats. Once you spend enough on a tower to get clean air, you might as well put a decent sized wind turbine up as well. But none of that matters unless you have reliably high wind, and most people don't.

[uncle_bob]

....
 But none of that matters unless you have reliably high wind, and most people don't.

Hi

Quick way to check (at least in North America):

Do you routinely see giant tractor trailer rigs with turbine blades driving around the area?

Are the local farms / forests all sprouting giant towers with turbines on top?

If not, you likely don't have "good wind".

Bob

[Someone]

Here is a general breakdown on my monthly electric bill.Also in N.Ontario. For reference I own a typical house 1600sq/ft, gas heat winter and central air in the summer.

I had a metered usage of 389.19kWh last month, the nice hydro people billed me for 417.66kWh. The total bill for the electricity I actually used was a measly 42 bucks, then there is delivery charges $22.28, regulatory charges $2.76,hst $8.73 which brings my electrical portion of my monthly bill to $75.87 almost doubled that portion in taxes and bullshit. But wait there is more, water consumption $4.37, Basic service charge $24.05 and sewage charge $17.62 and the debt retirement this brings my total bill to $121.91.

I thought your (Canadian) supply charges were high, but it includes water which changes things a lot! Here in Australia for your 400kWh/month you'd be looking at a total of around $195 AUD per month including water/sewerage/delivery (not including gas delivery, which would add more).

[uncle_bob]

Here is a general breakdown on my monthly electric bill.Also in N.Ontario. For reference I own a typical house 1600sq/ft, gas heat winter and central air in the summer.

I had a metered usage of 389.19kWh last month, the nice hydro people billed me for 417.66kWh. The total bill for the electricity I actually used was a measly 42 bucks, then there is delivery charges $22.28, regulatory charges $2.76,hst $8.73 which brings my electrical portion of my monthly bill to $75.87 almost doubled that portion in taxes and bullshit. But wait there is more, water consumption $4.37, Basic service charge $24.05 and sewage charge $17.62 and the debt retirement this brings my total bill to $121.91.

I thought your (Canadian) supply charges were high, but it includes water which changes things a lot! Here in Australia for your 400kWh/month you'd be looking at a total of around $195 AUD per month including water/sewerage/delivery (not including gas delivery, which would add more).

Hi

If indeed a "disconnect" takes you off of water and sewer that is even more fun. I've been the "well and septic" route. There's a ton of cost involved. If you think you have fun now, file for a septic filed and see what hoops they make you jump through. Maybe not a big deal if you live on five acres. On a normal home lot in a city or town ... yuck ...(yes I could have spelled that slightly differently)

Bob

[Red Squirrel]

I heat with gas, but they want to ban that by 2030, which is completely insane as people who do heat with hydro are spending $400+ per month. I don't think it's going to happen though but the fact that it's on the table kinda has me thinking I need to be prepared.   I really want to look into wood as supplementary heat, but that may have it's own issues legally too.  Would be super cheap though, you can legally cut trees here (until they stop that too...) I think you just need a license that's like $50.  Think they want to ban wood stoves as well though.  Basically our provincial leader sold off the hydro company and her/her buddies owns most of the stocks in it and is doing everything to force people to pay more so they can't be independent, so it's a big political mess.

I think really the only thing I can expect from this house/property is to go partial solar.  It could probably at least bring me into a near zero usage state where I'm only paying the fixed fees on the bill and maybe the occasional night time usage, where the rates are not as high.   I could also use AC in summer for practically free, as solar would work very well in summer as the days are very long.  I'd probably get like 12 hours of actual solar hitting sun, if more.

Yust for my information, what is the price of one cubic meter of gas and one kWh of power in your area?
I live in northern Italy, the wheater here is not so bad , I do not use AC, my house is not well insulated and in 2015 I paid:
- 712 Euros (1035 CAN$) for 2564 kWh of electricity  and
- 1345 Euros (1995 CAN$) for 1489 cubic meters of gas (used for cooking, sanitary water and winter heating).

Best regards

 Edit: thanks to a previous poster and a Google search I found the rates for electricity in  Northern America: If the data are correct (do they include every tax and other costs?) they are incredibly cheap.. I pay four times those prices.

Here is a general breakdown on my monthly electric bill.Also in N.Ontario. For reference I own a typical house 1600sq/ft, gas heat winter and central air in the summer.

I had a metered usage of 389.19kWh last month, the nice hydro people billed me for 417.66kWh. The total bill for the electricity I actually used was a measly 42 bucks, then there is delivery charges $22.28, regulatory charges $2.76,hst $8.73 which brings my electrical portion of my monthly bill to $75.87 almost doubled that portion in taxes and bullshit. But wait there is more, water consumption $4.37, Basic service charge $24.05 and sewage charge $17.62 and the debt retirement this brings my total bill to $121.91.

Hopefully this was illuminating to our European brother and sisters. I have no problem paying for what I use its all the other shit they tack on that I have no control over no matter how much I conserve our shift usage times. My utility lets me compare my usage to others in my neighborhood and compared to my typical neighborhood usage you would think no one lived in my house. Christ a lot of them are getting $800-$1k+ utility bills I don't know if they are running grow ops or what.

Oh and it doesn't matter how much we conserve they just jack up the price to cover lost revenue.

http://www.640toronto.com/2016/04/14/the-price-of-hydro-slated-to-increase-in-may/

Red Squirrel get out and vote for anyone but liberal in the next provincial election get rid of these crooked incompetent ass's. The liberals keep getting in by buying votes like public sector unions, teachers etc. Do the math on voter turn out and the popular vote they got and coincidently its pretty equivelent to the size of the public sector. The goverment is illegitimate with only 19% of the popular vote and should be dissolved and a new election called.

And this year they even raised all the rates because we conserved too much.  And they have other rate increases planned that are outside of those existing rate increases.

And don't worry I never vote conservative or liberal, they're both corrupt. Right now I'd even go as far as picking conservative over liberal just to get Wynne out.   Too bad NDP gets so little votes that they are basically irrelevant but I vote them anyway.  They always win where I am.

Where I am water/sewer is separate from hydro though, but the delivery fee is also much higher, I think it's like $70 or so last I checked.

[andrew.kowalski@mail.ru]

I'm not sure if it's a good idea. The obstructions of the residential area will get the effect close to zero. You also have to keep in mind the soct of the tower. Maybe, it's a nice solution for a farm.

[max_torque]

In dense urban areas, the only wind energy recovery system that works and is viable is one where the buildings themselves are used to focus the wind energy onto the turbine.  Ie large, tall apartment blocks with a channel through the middle to gather the winds and drive them through the turbine.  Unless you are incredibly lucky, existing buildings are unlikely to have been build in a suitable layout.  Local wind survey with an logging anenometer may turn up a particular location in your property where there are focused low level winds.

[Red Squirrel]

My hydro bill equal billing plan just shot up from $170/mo to $270/mo.  Recently got central A/C but that's not even factored in the last billing cycle.   I definitely need to seriously start thinking of something.   Solar would work well for maybe half the year and cover for A/C if I can fit enough panels, but in winter the days are too short.   I actually saw a house that had a small wind turbine, I'd almost be curious to knock at their door to ask them how well it works for them.  The one I see at the community lake is almost always spinning at a decent rate even when it seems there's not much wind, but it's also in a flatter area. There's a couple buildings but they're maybe like 50m away if more.   There's too many trees in my area I think though.  It's one thing to put the tower over the roof tops but another thing to clear the trees.  You need to clear obstructions by a half decent amount too to get away from turbulent winds. 

[uncle_bob]

My hydro bill equal billing plan just shot up from $170/mo to $270/mo.  Recently got central A/C but that's not even factored in the last billing cycle.   I definitely need to seriously start thinking of something.   Solar would work well for maybe half the year and cover for A/C if I can fit enough panels, but in winter the days are too short.   I actually saw a house that had a small wind turbine, I'd almost be curious to knock at their door to ask them how well it works for them.  The one I see at the community lake is almost always spinning at a decent rate even when it seems there's not much wind, but it's also in a flatter area. There's a couple buildings but they're maybe like 50m away if more.   There's too many trees in my area I think though.  It's one thing to put the tower over the roof tops but another thing to clear the trees.  You need to clear obstructions by a half decent amount too to get away from turbulent winds.

Hi

If you think you already have fun dealing with regulations, just go and see what that permit for a 300 foot tall self supported tower involves

Bob

[Red Squirrel]

That's the biggest issue, I doubt they would allow it.  We are legislated to death these days, and extorted of our money because anything you try to do to avoid paying money to these cartels is probably illegal.  Whether it's energy, or food, etc.

What seems like the most realistic thing would be a wood stove powered steam turbine, but issue with that is it does require quite a lot of machining skill to build one, and it's not my expertise at all.  And even wood stoves, governments are often hinting at the idea of banning them.  They are already doing this in Quebec.

[mtdoc]

What seems like the most realistic thing would be a wood stove powered steam turbine

Nah. If you want wood-powered electricity production, a wood gasification powered generator is the way to go.  More efficient and it burns cleaner than a wood stove, so I doubt there would be any risk of them being banned.

[Red Squirrel]

What seems like the most realistic thing would be a wood stove powered steam turbine

Nah. If you want wood-powered electricity production, a wood gasification powered generator is the way to go.  More efficient and it burns cleaner than a wood stove, so I doubt there would be any risk of them being banned.

Was thinking that too, but that seems more complex as well, ex: still requires a special type of combustion engine and so on, but it may very well make the most sense in a residential setting. 

But either way it would not require a big tower or anything of that sort so the equipement could be tucked away somewhere out of sight.   The generator could probably be put indoors if exhaust is vented properly.  Idealy if I setup a wood stove I'd want an outside intake too.  Make it a closed system.   Would only need to run in winter as in the 2-3 summer months we have, solar would probably be enough to produce power due to longer days.   I'm thinking since either way I need a battery bank, inverters etc, I'd probably be best to look at solar first and see how that fairs out.  Then add a second energy source for winter.

[uncle_bob]

What seems like the most realistic thing would be a wood stove powered steam turbine

Nah. If you want wood-powered electricity production, a wood gasification powered generator is the way to go.  More efficient and it burns cleaner than a wood stove, so I doubt there would be any risk of them being banned.

Was thinking that too, but that seems more complex as well, ex: still requires a special type of combustion engine and so on, but it may very well make the most sense in a residential setting. 

But either way it would not require a big tower or anything of that sort so the equipement could be tucked away somewhere out of sight.   The generator could probably be put indoors if exhaust is vented properly.  Idealy if I setup a wood stove I'd want an outside intake too.  Make it a closed system.   Would only need to run in winter as in the 2-3 summer months we have, solar would probably be enough to produce power due to longer days.   I'm thinking since either way I need a battery bank, inverters etc, I'd probably be best to look at solar first and see how that fairs out.  Then add a second energy source for winter.

Hi

As soon as you have system big enough to do you some good, you are right back to licensing and inspections. Boiler explosions were once a very big deal. Centuries later we all still live with the regulation process that they brought on.

Bob

[mtdoc]

What seems like the most realistic thing would be a wood stove powered steam turbine

Nah. If you want wood-powered electricity production, a wood gasification powered generator is the way to go.  More efficient and it burns cleaner than a wood stove, so I doubt there would be any risk of them being banned.

Was thinking that too, but that seems more complex as well, ex: still requires a special type of combustion engine and so on, but it may very well make the most sense in a residential setting. 

But either way it would not require a big tower or anything of that sort so the equipement could be tucked away somewhere out of sight.   The generator could probably be put indoors if exhaust is vented properly.  Idealy if I setup a wood stove I'd want an outside intake too.  Make it a closed system.   Would only need to run in winter as in the 2-3 summer months we have, solar would probably be enough to produce power due to longer days.   I'm thinking since either way I need a battery bank, inverters etc, I'd probably be best to look at solar first and see how that fairs out.  Then add a second energy source for winter.

Hi

As soon as you have system big enough to do you some good, you are right back to licensing and inspections. Boiler explosions were once a very big deal. Centuries later we all still live with the regulation process that they brought on.

Bob

No boiler with a wood gasifier. The generator head is driven by a standard IC engine.  The wood gasification process provides the fuel and does not involve a boiler of any high pressure chamber.

[uncle_bob]

What seems like the most realistic thing would be a wood stove powered steam turbine

Nah. If you want wood-powered electricity production, a wood gasification powered generator is the way to go.  More efficient and it burns cleaner than a wood stove, so I doubt there would be any risk of them being banned.

Was thinking that too, but that seems more complex as well, ex: still requires a special type of combustion engine and so on, but it may very well make the most sense in a residential setting. 

But either way it would not require a big tower or anything of that sort so the equipement could be tucked away somewhere out of sight.   The generator could probably be put indoors if exhaust is vented properly.  Idealy if I setup a wood stove I'd want an outside intake too.  Make it a closed system.   Would only need to run in winter as in the 2-3 summer months we have, solar would probably be enough to produce power due to longer days.   I'm thinking since either way I need a battery bank, inverters etc, I'd probably be best to look at solar first and see how that fairs out.  Then add a second energy source for winter.

Hi

As soon as you have system big enough to do you some good, you are right back to licensing and inspections. Boiler explosions were once a very big deal. Centuries later we all still live with the regulation process that they brought on.

Bob

No boiler with a wood gasifier. The generator head is driven by a standard IC engine.  The wood gasification process provides the fuel and does not involve a boiler of any high pressure chamber.

Hi

Go down to city hall and see the book they open up for the regulations on your permit. It all started with boilers. If it's got enough power to take you off the grid (we already went over that part of it), you have a pretty big machine.

Bob

[mtdoc]

What seems like the most realistic thing would be a wood stove powered steam turbine

Nah. If you want wood-powered electricity production, a wood gasification powered generator is the way to go.  More efficient and it burns cleaner than a wood stove, so I doubt there would be any risk of them being banned.

Was thinking that too, but that seems more complex as well, ex: still requires a special type of combustion engine and so on, but it may very well make the most sense in a residential setting. 

But either way it would not require a big tower or anything of that sort so the equipement could be tucked away somewhere out of sight.   The generator could probably be put indoors if exhaust is vented properly.  Idealy if I setup a wood stove I'd want an outside intake too.  Make it a closed system.   Would only need to run in winter as in the 2-3 summer months we have, solar would probably be enough to produce power due to longer days.   I'm thinking since either way I need a battery bank, inverters etc, I'd probably be best to look at solar first and see how that fairs out.  Then add a second energy source for winter.

Hi

As soon as you have system big enough to do you some good, you are right back to licensing and inspections. Boiler explosions were once a very big deal. Centuries later we all still live with the regulation process that they brought on.

Bob

No boiler with a wood gasifier. The generator head is driven by a standard IC engine.  The wood gasification process provides the fuel and does not involve a boiler of any high pressure chamber.

Hi

Go down to city hall and see the book they open up for the regulations on your permit. It all started with boilers. If it's got enough power to take you off the grid (we already went over that part of it), you have a pretty big machine.

Bob

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.  A generator fueled by a wood gasifier does not require a permit here. Neither do wood stoves. 

How much power generation one needs to be off grid depends entirely on ones loads. For our modern 3000 sq. ft. Home, I can be totally off grid with a 2000 watt genset as long as I use only the wood stove for heat. I know people who live off grid full time in smaller energy efficient homes with only a small solar array and a 1000 watt generator providing their electricity.

The wood gasifier fueled generators i linked to earlier are big 15k -18k watt beasts that could fully run our home including our heat punp yet even that would not require a permit.

The transfer switch for generator input i installed several years ago did require an electrical permit but as far as the AHJ goes, it makes no difference what fuels the generator I plug into it - gas, diesel, propane or wood.

[CatalinaWOW]

Wood stoves DO require a permit in many parts of the US.  Just like gas and electric heating systems.  Part of the public and private safety requirements.  During a permited wood stove installation things are verified like adequate separation from flammable materials, proper height of the smokestack above the roof, existence of a spark arrestor on the smokestack, safe construction and condition of the stove and so on.  In addition, many areas of the US regulate operation of wood stoves to maintain air quality.  They may be required to have certified low emissions, and may not be allowed to operate on days when weather conditions don't allow smoke dissipation. 

Of course if you buy your stove and install it yourself so no one knows you have the stove you won't need a permit (until you sell the property).

There may or may not be requirements for permitting a wood gasifier.  If not it would be because they are unusual enough that the regulations haven't caught up with them.  Even then they would probably be covered under general provisions of local building codes and air quality regulation.

[mtdoc]

Yes, it's true about wood stove permits in some locations. In fact, i believe they are outright banned in some urban areas.

I also think it's true that the lack of any permits needed for wood gasifiers ( that i am aware of) is likely because they are very rare. I suspect that if they became more widespread they would require EPA certification as do modern wood stoves.

It's interesting about wood gasifiers. AFAIK they are not even regulated by CARB in California.

[tautech]

I remember 35+ years ago one of the locals had a gassification unit on the deck of his old Ford flat head V8 truck. He laughed at us all for buying gas and through the 70's fuel crisis and our car less days he just kept on trucking. Cold start times was his biggest curse IIRC ~30 minutes.

[uncle_bob]

What seems like the most realistic thing would be a wood stove powered steam turbine

Hi

If you go back a ways in this thread, the power need to take things off grid is in the >10KW range in this case....

Bob

Nah. If you want wood-powered electricity production, a wood gasification powered generator is the way to go.  More efficient and it burns cleaner than a wood stove, so I doubt there would be any risk of them being banned.

Was thinking that too, but that seems more complex as well, ex: still requires a special type of combustion engine and so on, but it may very well make the most sense in a residential setting. 

But either way it would not require a big tower or anything of that sort so the equipement could be tucked away somewhere out of sight.   The generator could probably be put indoors if exhaust is vented properly.  Idealy if I setup a wood stove I'd want an outside intake too.  Make it a closed system.   Would only need to run in winter as in the 2-3 summer months we have, solar would probably be enough to produce power due to longer days.   I'm thinking since either way I need a battery bank, inverters etc, I'd probably be best to look at solar first and see how that fairs out.  Then add a second energy source for winter.

Hi

As soon as you have system big enough to do you some good, you are right back to licensing and inspections. Boiler explosions were once a very big deal. Centuries later we all still live with the regulation process that they brought on.

Bob

No boiler with a wood gasifier. The generator head is driven by a standard IC engine.  The wood gasification process provides the fuel and does not involve a boiler of any high pressure chamber.

Hi

Go down to city hall and see the book they open up for the regulations on your permit. It all started with boilers. If it's got enough power to take you off the grid (we already went over that part of it), you have a pretty big machine.

Bob

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.  A generator fueled by a wood gasifier does not require a permit here. Neither do wood stoves. 

How much power generation one needs to be off grid depends entirely on ones loads. For our modern 3000 sq. ft. Home, I can be totally off grid with a 2000 watt genset as long as I use only the wood stove for heat. I know people who live off grid full time in smaller energy efficient homes with only a small solar array and a 1000 watt generator providing their electricity.

The wood gasifier fueled generators i linked to earlier are big 15k -18k watt beasts that could fully run our home including our heat punp yet even that would not require a permit.

The transfer switch for generator input i installed several years ago did require an electrical permit but as far as the AHJ goes, it makes no difference what fuels the generator I plug into it - gas, diesel, propane or wood.

[Red Squirrel]

That's part of the issue too, government does not like people who go off grid, so they will do everything they can to give you trouble about it.

I doubt I could truly go off grid at this current house, but I'm thinking my best bet is to start with wood stove and solar, and try to be off grid for say, the 3 summer months, when we get 16+ hours of sun per day, and use wood stove as supplementary heat.  If that works out, I could possibly suspend my hydro service and save the ~100/mo delivery fee... though knowing how crooked they are, you probably can't do that, or there is probably some huge fee to suspend.  So possibly would not be worth it. Almost have to fully cancel it.

But could then look into the gassifier too, just need to find somewhere that sells those, not even sure how much they cost, can't seem to find them anywhere other than DIY guides, but this is something I'd probably want to get from a proper company with warranty/support etc.

[uncle_bob]

That's part of the issue too, government does not like people who go off grid, so they will do everything they can to give you trouble about it.

I doubt I could truly go off grid at this current house, but I'm thinking my best bet is to start with wood stove and solar, and try to be off grid for say, the 3 summer months, when we get 16+ hours of sun per day, and use wood stove as supplementary heat.  If that works out, I could possibly suspend my hydro service and save the ~100/mo delivery fee... though knowing how crooked they are, you probably can't do that, or there is probably some huge fee to suspend.  So possibly would not be worth it. Almost have to fully cancel it.

But could then look into the gassifier too, just need to find somewhere that sells those, not even sure how much they cost, can't seem to find them anywhere other than DIY guides, but this is something I'd probably want to get from a proper company with warranty/support etc.

Hi

I believe we hashed out the fact that as long as you are still connected to the grid, the "connection fee" eats you alive. Your variable rate isn't all that bad, it's the "tax" that comes along with it that is the issue.

Bob

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah that's why to really save you need to be able to go fully off grid.   One thing I have been pondering on though that WOULD work, is a natural gas generator.  Cancel hydro, keep gas.  At least you're only paying one delivery fee, not two.  Have the genset fire up whenever the voltage hits a certain threshold, for example. Need to them monitor how much current is being drawn to charge the batteries, and when it hits a certain value (trickle charge) it could turn off. 

The gassifier idea sounds interesting though, the more I think about it.  I'll be paying $3,240/year in hydro, and gas is about $1,680, so $4,920 total per year for both utilities.  So say I want something that will pay for itself in 10 years, I can afford to buy 50k worth of equipment (solar, gassifier etc) but that's kind an unrealistic amount of money to pay in one shot, so idealy I'd want something in the 20k range, that would pay for itself in 5ish years.  Either way I seriously need to start saving up.  At some point the rates will be higher than what I can afford to pay.  I need to come up with something before that point happens.

[uncle_bob]

Yeah that's why to really save you need to be able to go fully off grid.   One thing I have been pondering on though that WOULD work, is a natural gas generator.  Cancel hydro, keep gas.  At least you're only paying one delivery fee, not two.  Have the genset fire up whenever the voltage hits a certain threshold, for example. Need to them monitor how much current is being drawn to charge the batteries, and when it hits a certain value (trickle charge) it could turn off. 

The gassifier idea sounds interesting though, the more I think about it.  I'll be paying $3,240/year in hydro, and gas is about $1,680, so $4,920 total per year for both utilities.  So say I want something that will pay for itself in 10 years, I can afford to buy 50k worth of equipment (solar, gassifier etc) but that's kind an unrealistic amount of money to pay in one shot, so idealy I'd want something in the 20k range, that would pay for itself in 5ish years.  Either way I seriously need to start saving up.  At some point the rates will be higher than what I can afford to pay.  I need to come up with something before that point happens.

Hi

Unless the equipment its self pays off in under 5 years, you have no real chance of getting ahead. None of this stuff runs forever without maintenance / replacement. There are also secondary costs that you don't figure in right up front. You have fuel cost, even for wood (we're talking a *lot* of wood). There's a "load / unload" process with wood that can get a bit tedious when the wood pile is under a few feet of snow I have empirical data on that one....

Bob

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah natural gas generator would be the "guaranteed" way out but the problem as you say is Wynne.  In fact she wants to BAN natural gas by 2030.  She is completely insane.  Maybe slash the hydro prices to 1/10th of what they are, then let's talk about heating with hydro.

I think I will probably have to eventually accept that I will have to move out of province or on a much larger lot with more options at some point but it's nice to dream.

[LabSpokane]

What seems like the most realistic thing would be a wood stove powered steam turbine

Nah. If you want wood-powered electricity production, a wood gasification powered generator is the way to go. 

Sorry, but no.  They will work for a very little while and then the engine will plug up with tar. 

From what I've heard, every genset the company you linked sold has failed in the field with no resolution forthcoming (edit:  I see new updates and claims of a "new version" but nothing I saw in the video is really convincing that the core problem has been solved.)  I've seen the unit you linked at PowerGen and I just don't see how it could work on a long term basis.  These generators are expensive curiosities and little more. 

And, yes, I watched the videos.  Tar cracking? Show me a calibrated thermocouple and a residence time, because I don't believe it.  If that thing was cracking tar, the piping would glow cherry red like a set of headers on a dragster. 

[mtdoc]

What seems like the most realistic thing would be a wood stove powered steam turbine

Nah. If you want wood-powered electricity production, a wood gasification powered generator is the way to go. 

Sorry, but no.  They will work for a very little while and then the engine will plug up with tar. 

From what I've heard, every genset the company you linked sold has failed in the field with no resolution forthcoming (edit:  I see new updates and claims of a "new version" but nothing I saw in the video is really convincing that the core problem has been solved.)  I've seen the unit you linked at PowerGen and I just don't see how it could work on a long term basis.  These generators are expensive curiosities and little more. 

And, yes, I watched the videos.  Tar cracking? Show me a calibrated thermocouple and a residence time, because I don't believe it.  If that thing was cracking tar, the piping would glow cherry red like a set of headers on a dragster.

I can't vouch for that company. Just something that came up in a search. But - wood gasification is not a new technology - it's been around for  at least 70 years and is tried and true. It has its limitations but it does work. I do know one person who successfully built one which he uses to fuel his off-grid genset.  My main point was that from what I've learned from others - it's a better solution for wood fired electricity production on a small scale than a boiler/steam turbine.  I have no personal experience with them. If I wanted to be completely off grid - I'd supplement my PV generation with microhydro from the stream on my property.

[LabSpokane]

What seems like the most realistic thing would be a wood stove powered steam turbine

Nah. If you want wood-powered electricity production, a wood gasification powered generator is the way to go. 

Sorry, but no.  They will work for a very little while and then the engine will plug up with tar. 

From what I've heard, every genset the company you linked sold has failed in the field with no resolution forthcoming (edit:  I see new updates and claims of a "new version" but nothing I saw in the video is really convincing that the core problem has been solved.)  I've seen the unit you linked at PowerGen and I just don't see how it could work on a long term basis.  These generators are expensive curiosities and little more. 

And, yes, I watched the videos.  Tar cracking? Show me a calibrated thermocouple and a residence time, because I don't believe it.  If that thing was cracking tar, the piping would glow cherry red like a set of headers on a dragster.

I can't vouch for that company. Just something that came up in a search. But - wood gasification is not a new technology - it's been around for  at least 70 years and is tried and true. It has its limitations but it does work. I do know one person who successfully built one which he uses to fuel his off-grid genset.  My main point was that from what I've learned from others - it's a better solution for wood fired electricity production on a small scale than a boiler/steam turbine.  I have no personal experience with them. If I wanted to be completely off grid - I'd supplement my PV generation with microhydro from the stream on my property.

FWIW, I do this for a living and we know the only people that have made gasifier gensets which come close to "working" commercially. They will not be building more. They only get about 50% uptime and are looking at conventional boiler technology for the future.

PV and hydro are solid choices. Leave the gasification stuff to folks who build utility-scale power plants. 

[Red Squirrel]

What seems like the most realistic thing would be a wood stove powered steam turbine

Nah. If you want wood-powered electricity production, a wood gasification powered generator is the way to go. 

Sorry, but no.  They will work for a very little while and then the engine will plug up with tar. 

From what I've heard, every genset the company you linked sold has failed in the field with no resolution forthcoming (edit:  I see new updates and claims of a "new version" but nothing I saw in the video is really convincing that the core problem has been solved.)  I've seen the unit you linked at PowerGen and I just don't see how it could work on a long term basis.  These generators are expensive curiosities and little more. 

And, yes, I watched the videos.  Tar cracking? Show me a calibrated thermocouple and a residence time, because I don't believe it.  If that thing was cracking tar, the piping would glow cherry red like a set of headers on a dragster.

I think you need something to filter out the tar first, and I imagine that would require lot of maintenance too.  Definitely an interesting concept, but I personally like steam idea, because it's simpler.  You could still use gasification but just for extra heat within the stove to get more out of the wood.   Simple is good, when wanting to go off grid.   I'm even wondering how well tesla turbines would fair out.  They arn't the most efficient, but could you like daisy chain a whole bunch together?   They would be easier to build than a steam turbine too.

Another option might be sterling engine, but that's not exactly simple to build either.   Of course this would be combined with solar, as you'd still get SOME output in winter, and in summer when you don't want to use the wood stove, you'd get a lot of output.  You'd be running off batteries all the time, the wood stove and solar would simply be keeping them topped up.

[langwadt]

wind turbines are noisy and ugly and when ever it is in the path of the sun you have a strobe light.

and small turbine are not nearly as cost efficient as the big ones, so for anyone wanting wind power the smart thing to do is buy a part of one of the big ones

[mtdoc]

Another option might be sterling engine, but that's not exactly simple to build either.   Of course this would be combined with solar, as you'd still get SOME output in winter, and in summer when you don't want to use the wood stove, you'd get a lot of output.  You'd be running off batteries all the time, the wood stove and solar would simply be keeping them topped up.

The reality is that almost all of the many people who live off grid, the best solution is solar PV combined with a traditional generator burning either gasoline, diesel or propane.

Microhydro or wind power is great if you have the appropriate resource available at your location- but very few do.

Wood burning for heat (space or water) is common and useful.

Wood burning to produce electricity - whether by steam turbine or wood gas fueled generator is really only something to consider if one is looking at being fully independent of the fossil fuel industry (for either philosophical reasons or SHTF apocalypse prepping).  Both have their shortcomings but both are being employed by small scale DIY'ers.    I have yet to hear of either a sterling engine or thermoelectric generator being used in that scenario for anything other than very small amounts of power generation.

LabSpokane's points about the pitfall of wood gas are well taken but his experience relating to commercial power generation does not necessarily transfer to the small scale DIY off gridder who is willing to do the regular maintenance needed to burn wood gas.

[Red Squirrel]

The idea is indeed to perhaps be independent of fossil fuel, for cost and renewable reasons.   That and you are producing the heat either way, so may as well try to find a way to harvest it for electricity.   PV would only work well enough in the summer months, when the wood stove is not needed for heat.   Though I suppose the most realistic off grid way would be a propane generator that kicks on when battery voltage is too low.  PV would still produce SOME power in winter, just not for very long due to the short days.     Could maybe generate enough power with the wood stove using peltiers to charge a small battery that is used to power any pump/fans that are used by the wood stove to distribute the heat around the house though. 

Also I never really understood the noisy part of wind turbines, they are noisy in what way?  Any one that I've seen don't really put off any kind of noticeable noise.  The wind in your ears is louder than the noise they may put off.   I guess a DIY one would maybe be more noisy though due to not being as well engineered as a commercialy made one.

[CatalinaWOW]

Large scale commercial wind turbines generate their noise below human hearing range, down in the fractional Hz range.  Some feel that this noise affect some animals negatively, but I have no solid information on that.  There is no meaningful sound for human listeners, except possibly things like transformer hum and other similar sounds from very near the base of the tower.

Many home scale wind turbines operate at far higher frequencies and blade slap and other noises can get pretty high both in frequency and intensity.  Less expertise in balance, maintenance and other similar factors can also make home wind much noisier than the large commercial installations.  Add to this a neighbor or two who resent the impact on their pristine view and so are willing to complain about things that might otherwise be overlooked and you see where the problems come in.

[LabSpokane]

LabSpokane's points about the pitfall of wood gas are well taken but his experience relating to commercial power generation does not necessarily transfer to the small scale DIY off gridder who is willing to do the regular maintenance needed to burn wood gas.

As long as folks know what they're getting into with gasification, I'm OK with it.  What I'm not OK with is a lot of the sunshine and daffodils that gets bandied about with it.  It's capital intensive, and there will maintenance problems.  Lots of expensive maintenance problems. 

I'll do a rundown on the numbers sometime.  I think folks will be surprised at the amount of biomass that it takes to operate one of these gensets and the net efficiency. 

[CatalinaWOW]

It may also be a point of view problem.  People who have never operating a wood stove for heat have no idea of the amount of work.  Even a pelletized wood burner requires surprisingly frequent refills of the hopper, purchase and storage of large quantities of pellets, and some fairly intense and messy annual maintenance. 

For those of us who cut, split and cure our own wood and operate a less automated stove the work is even greater.  For someone in that situation gasification may not be as daunting.

This nation once operated nearly totally on wood power.  Their are some very obvious reasons why most switched to other methods when they became available.  There is a great appeal to only having to deal with utilities like heat and power once a month by writing a check, and then once every few years for repair/replacement.

[uncle_bob]

It may also be a point of view problem.  People who have never operating a wood stove for heat have no idea of the amount of work.  Even a pelletized wood burner requires surprisingly frequent refills of the hopper, purchase and storage of large quantities of pellets, and some fairly intense and messy annual maintenance. 

For those of us who cut, split and cure our own wood and operate a less automated stove the work is even greater.  For someone in that situation gasification may not be as daunting.

This nation once operated nearly totally on wood power.  Their are some very obvious reasons why most switched to other methods when they became available.  There is a great appeal to only having to deal with utilities like heat and power once a month by writing a check, and then once every few years for repair/replacement.

Hi

I've heated a house fully on wood not all that far south of the boarder with Canada. We did it 100% with split logs running in multiple systems. Yes, that's a *lot* of wood. It's also a commitment to never be away from home for an extended period .....If it's your trees, your chain saw, your log splitter and your labor, it all is technically "free". There is the minor issue of the cost of the chain saw, log splitter, stoves, and Tylenol. Assuming that you have a few weeks of the summer with nothing to do and an hour or two a day in the winter .... it's all free. Not really sure that the tractor and wagon for hauling the trees after they are cut figures as free on upkeep.

If you go the pellet route around here or up north where I used to be, they seem to sell them to you. That is not free and you are swapping the cost of one fuel for another fuel. Without a lot of math ... not at all clear that you come out ahead *unless* you do a full disconnect.

Bob

[mtdoc]

Yes, it takes work to heat with wood. As the saying goes - the wood heats you twice. We partially heat with wood now but have heated here (at 1900 ft in WA) with wood only for up to a week at a time during winter power outages. Many of my neighbors heat with wood alone full time.  In the past i've heated a home with wood alone through a Northern Vermont Winter - the heat content of NE hardwoods was appreciated.

There are tricks to minimize the wood needed - a well insulated home, efficient stove, etc.

My understanding is that one advantage of the wood gasifiers is the ability to use small bore biomass - mill waste,  wood chips, walnut shells,etc.

But no matter what - fully off grid living is hard work - especially in a cold climate.  It's much easier to push a button on a thermostat.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

When I add up all of the up front costs for the wood heat setup, payback might have been in the 20 year range. When you toss in the cost for aded inspections and back permits when we sold the house, take that out another few years. Toss in the "discount" on the house required to close the deal ... hmmmm .... yes, payback? I could heat your house, my house and his house for what it all cost.

At least in my experience, there is a hidden cost to this. An off grid setup actually is not a "normal thing". Like a swimming pool it is likely to subtract from rather than add to your home's value. 99% of the population is not very excited about all the work chopping and hauling tons of wood. It's far from carbon neutral (chop down a TREE and make CO2) so it down sells with part of the crowd that should be excited by it.

Bob

[Red Squirrel]

Ran across this on youtube.

I want one!



You don't need a house, it can BE the house.   

I like how it's all modular, almost like it's just a kit you can buy at Ikea.  "some assembly required".

[uncle_bob]

Hi

No need for a vibrating lounger chair.... you can get a nice massage anywhere in the house just by leaning against a wall

Bob

[CatalinaWOW]

It certainly gives you a room with a view.  And built in exercise with the daily climb on the way home.

[ziplock9000]

If your in the UK like me your probably in trouble straight away due to the strict rules governing height vs distance from boundaries. I had a so called 500W unit up about 8 metres but it was nowhere near high enough to get into clean air, given it was only about 10M from the house I realized it didnt have a chance, spent most of its time turning around its axis confused as to where the wind was coming from and never generated more than 50W (in gusts), I would say urban is a nono unless you have a LOT of land!
Roger

PS try solar

Well that's cleared that up for me. I live in the North East and Solar definitely isn't an option either. Screwed both ways really :/

[grifftech]

use the grid as a "battery", it will never run out.

[Red Squirrel]

Idealy I'd like to go off grid as it's the delivery fee that costs the most, and not the usage.  But realistically given the small area of property I have to do anything off grid I think my best bet may indeed be to just go grid tied solar.  Even if solar won't always produce well such as winter if I'm grid tied that's less of an issue.

Solar panels themselves are becoming relatively cheap too.  If I can save up like 5-6 grand that would give me a bit under 5kw of solar.  Later on I can always add a charge controller and battery bank and go semi off grid.

[moz]

Ideally I'd like to go off grid as it's the delivery fee that costs the most, and not the usage.

Yep. If you have running water microhydro might also be an option, depending on just how ugly the freeze-thaw cycle is where you are. In Aotearoa I got lucky on my ~100 hectare block with a small catchment towards the top of a hill which gave me a reliable 10 litres/minute but at ~80m of head. Power = flow times head, and you ideally ant one number to be much bigger than the other. But if your "small semi rural" is 1000m² that's unlikely to be an option.

Solar panels themselves are becoming relatively cheap too.

If you're willing to bodge it you can likely buy second hand systems for next to nothing. Just beware of the US "assemble your own panels by bedding cells in epoxy" things that are too horrible to discuss. You want proper glass-fronted, manufactured panels. But with those and a willingness to run several inverters you can end up with a local mains bus that you can use for whatever. Viz, buy several 1kW-3kW systems and combine them. But don't try combining random panels on one inverter, it's not going to work very well at all. The electronics is not too hard, it's getting that system certified to connect to the grid that is ugly.

But wind... just say hell no. I have a friend with an off-grid property and even with two little turbines ~100m from the house they're annoying. Worse, one is bolted to a corner of a big tin shed, so when that's running you get the full on "next to the speaker stack at an ACDC concert" effect. The turbine shakes the pole, the pole is bolted to big sheets of tin... YEEEEAAAAH THUNDER!!! Don't do that.

The other turbine is a tilt-up pole with a 2kW turbine, and it's better but sadly the pole is only 12m high, so with 5m high trees and sheds it's nowhere near clear air. In a good storm the flow stabilises and you get 3kW until the thing trips out. Or, at about 150kph wind speed, falls over. Then you get to buy everything all over again. You need to balance "good wind exposure" with "what do I do when there's a storm".

Overall, he gets 4-5 times as much annual power per kilowatt installed from PV, and the maintenance is zero for the PV. Also, you can guess PV output pretty well using online tools but wind is so sensitive to microscale variations that the only way to guess output is to put dataloggers at the height you want and analyse a couple of years.

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah if I was to go solar I'd buy panels premade, probably new.   I toyed with the idea of buying cells but even then they're not THAT cheap. By the time I buy all the materials to build panels I may as well just buy them premade, new.  I would maybe buy cells for a small project but not something big like a home solar system.

I've toyed with the idea of going DIY route for the batteries though, but even then probably best to buy premade than to try to cast my own lead plates etc...   The issue I ran into with my small battery bank for my UPS is that they stop making stuff after a while.  They make a batch of an item, then a few years later you can't get it anymore, this goes with batteries too.  So I had one battery go bad but I could not buy the same kind because they changed it.     Not a huge deal for my existing 12v system as they're all in paralell, but it would be a big deal for a 48v system as you need all the cells to match. So I'd have to figure something out for that if I went with a big system with bigger expensive batteries.  Duds happen, but I don't want it to write off an entire string because I can't buy the same cell anymore. I guess I could buy a few spares and keep them on a separate float charger.

[moz]

I think there's still some easy wins in DIY batteries (there are some youtube channels with guys buying thousands of 18650 LiIons), but if you can find them second hand traction batteries can be a really easy win if they're nearby. Back in the day I was paying a few hundred dollars delivery/pickup to swap batteries, and that was it once I'd bought the first "ready to recycle" battery. I'd bike over to the recycle depot and test the batteries they'd got in, then pick the best one. The downside was that it meant having a single 800kg battery in the garage, the upside was that for about $300/year I have 10kWh at 48V from a 25kWh battery that was past the end of its life. Desulfate them for a week (there goes 20kWh) and they'd usually come up from 30V to float charge and run quite happily for another year or two. Traction batteries often get binned when they won't do a full day in a forklift because half a day then 10 hours charging just doesn't work for a lot of people. But I fear that these days the hire companies swap those down to someone who only needs half a day, so by yhe time they get remanufactured they're possibly worthless. But it is worth looking into. Locally I can get 12kWh nominal for $1500 off eBay, for example (450kg ... lift with your knees, not your back!)

I know a couple of people here in Aus that have offgrid systems using strings of second hand panels, and they work pretty well. If you're capable of basic research and knowing that "this 12V charger will not work with a 24V battery" level of common sense it's pretty doable. Being willing to faff about with the system lets you trade your ongoing labour for a cheaper, less reliable system. Or in at least one case, $100 for a really nice 3kW inverter/charger that had let the smoke out, a $30 MOSFET and some soldering... made the nice man smile. Look for the idiots who buy "complete offgrid systems" on eBay and never manage to get them working.

[Dubbie]

A relative of mine built one about 10m high in a residential area. He ended up taking it down because maintenance was just too high and the wind was wildly variable in the built up area. The wind could flip 180 degrees within a minute.


Sent from my phone using Tapatalk

[ziplock9000]

A relative of mine built one about 10m high in a residential area. He ended up taking it down because maintenance was just too high and the wind was wildly variable in the built up area. The wind could flip 180 degrees within a minute.


Sent from my phone using Tapatalk

This is the issue I've been hearing too in residential areas. Damn shame really

[Red Squirrel]

My biggest fear with a turbine is the bureaucracy otherwise I could just build super high.  Could double as a RF mast too if I want to get into ham radio. Needing permits, or neighbors complaining, having to take it down etc.   That and wind gusts.  We tend to get these weird storms now and then where we get huge "explosions" of wind, can feel the whole house shift and feels like roof is going to get ripped off.  It would probably rip the turbine apart and send lot of debris everywhere.  We had one earlier this winter and if it was not for the snow on the roof pretty sure lot of people would have lost shingles.   Even for solar panels I'm kind of worried these gusts would be an issue as it could catch the panels from under and rip them off the racks or rip the tracks out of the roof. 

[brucehoult]

Idealy I'd like to go off grid as it's the delivery fee that costs the most, and not the usage.  But realistically given the small area of property I have to do anything off grid I think my best bet may indeed be to just go grid tied solar.  Even if solar won't always produce well such as winter if I'm grid tied that's less of an issue.

Solar panels themselves are becoming relatively cheap too.  If I can save up like 5-6 grand that would give me a bit under 5kw of solar.  Later on I can always add a charge controller and battery bank and go semi off grid.

In NZ there is a thing, by law, that if you use less electricity than a certain amount (it was 8000 kWh/yr last time I looked) then you can switch to a "low user" tariff where you pay a lot more per kWh but much lower daily connection fee -- something like 30c/day instead of $1.80/day. It's figured so that if you used exactly 8000 kWh then you'd pay the same either way.

That makes it more reasonable to go partially off grid.

Other countries don't have this?

Edit: just checked current prices (I'm not living in NZ at the moment)

At my old home in Wellington, on Meridian Energy (single rate 24/365, controlled water heater):

Standard: $1.80/day plus $0.1618/kWh
Low User: $0.345/day plus $0.2282/kWh

Cost about $1951.50 for a year on ether plan for 8000 kWh.

If you only need 1000 kWh then it's $818 vs $354. Quite a difference, with $657 fixed annual charge on the "standard" plan before you use a unit of electricity.

[tautech]

........That and wind gusts.  We tend to get these weird storms now and then where we get huge "explosions" of wind, can feel the whole house shift and feels like roof is going to get ripped off.  It would probably rip the turbine apart and send lot of debris everywhere.

A neighbour in our rural location needed power to charge batteries for a semi permanent electric fence that was installed in the head a funnel shaped gully that faced the prevailing winds and the location seemed just perfect for a small wind turbine that was supposed to be perfect for the job. It was quite small, 3 blade and ~500mm IIRC. There were no obstacles preventing clean airflow and as the installation was in the head of the gully AND atop a dividing range where the coast could be seen in both directions where in this part of NZ is only ~20 miles wide, it need only be installed on a pole high enough to keep anybody that came near safe.

I've lived here all my life and this is one of the windiest places I know, it fair howls up this gully and the poor little genset howled in protest from the day it was installed. In winter storms it could easily be heard ~2 miles away.......for a year or two then it self destructed. 
Back to the peaceful sounds of a rural setting. 

[Delta]

Don't waste your money on such a ludicrous (if well intentioned) project. Spend it on thermal insulation. The cheapest (and cleanest) kWh is a kWh saved.

Ground sourced heat pumps are also a viable option.

[cdev]

In any rural setting without the noise of nearby highways, human activity, etc, sound often carries extremely well. Also, any sound's magnitude is effectively magnified in a valley of any kind.


Quote from: tautech on 2017-02-26, 05:13:24

In winter storms it could easily be heard ~2 miles away.......for a year or two then it self destructed. 
Back to the peaceful sounds of a rural setting. 

[Red Squirrel]

Don't waste your money on such a ludicrous (if well intentioned) project. Spend it on thermal insulation. The cheapest (and cleanest) kWh is a kWh saved.

Ground sourced heat pumps are also a viable option.

Insulation does not do much for power.  For heat (gas) yes, but even then you can only do so much especially with an old house.  It's not just the insulation that becomes an issue with old houses but the crappy vapour barrier installation.  My house is horrible for air leakage as vapour barrier was a new code back when it was built and most contractors skimped on it and often did not even use tape or acoustic sealant.  You can have all the insulation in the world but if the house is not air sealed you are still losing lot of heat.

But that said, I decided it would make more sense for me to look at solar if I'm going to spend money on such a project, even though solar is not that viable here, it will still produce SOME power, probably as much as I would get with a small wind turbine.  In the summer months when the days are super long then it would produce a lot more.

Really I almost need some form of power storage where I can dump lot of power into it for 2 months and it would last for 10.  Does such technology exist?  I guess only in very large scale, such as pumping water into huge reservoirs.  Even then.

[fourtytwo42]

Idealy I'd like to go off grid as it's the delivery fee that costs the most, and not the usage

Thats a problem here in the UK too but I solved it by changing supplier to one that has no delivery fee but a slightly higher tariff, for my low usage a saving overall. I don't know if you have an open market there in Canada but researching different suppliers can pay dividends (tip I dont use comparison sites).
Reducing energy costs has many facets, we work quite hard in the home to save it too, CCFL lighting (forget LEDS), boiled water in a thermos for tea, saving water waiting for hot in a bucket for toilet flushing, grey water for plants, some rainwater into the house system etc etc. It's a way of life, there is no one magic solution but our motto adopted from Tesco is "every little helps" Our space and water heating comes from three sources, wood burner, oil in a boiler and solar from PV, they all contribute in varying degrees, for example the solar provides all our hot water in summer so the boiler can be rested but also provides some in winter so it doesn't work so hard. Wood here used to be pickup by the side of the road but as burners have become more popular its scarcer but I have around 2-3 years supply stacked in the garden I just collect on opportunity. Insulation does make a difference and a contribution, over the years we have upgraded almost all our double glazing to A rated Argon filled coated glass, every nook and cranny is stuffed with fiberglass (horrible stuff) the main loft being over 500mm, and vermiculite poured into unreachable places. At 52 degrees latitude I am considerably south of you but even here to get the best out of PV you have to pay attention to detail, I am fortunate in having a roof angle also of 52 degrees SSW facing almost perfect I dont know about Canada but here we have draconian rules that dont allow projections of more than 6" from the roof making altering angles or tracking from a roof array difficult. At your latitude I would think tracking would gain you a lot, had you considered a pole mounted array ? after all you were thinking of a turbine on a pole. One last thing GOOD MPPT is essential it's the only way to maximize output at poor insolation in the winter months, I also benefit from mine as being a non-tracking array it helps to pick up power from oblique angles in the early mornings. You seem to have been thinking about things for a long time, go down the store today and buy some CCFL's then start checking out the different power company tarrifs, start saveing today

[Red Squirrel]

I wish I could do pole mounted but I simply don't have room.  Yard is too small.  There's room but most areas get shade due to trees/neighbors houses etc.  Otherwise I would just do a large tracking array.   There's only one area that would be viable on my roof and work most of the day but it would not be the most optimal angle.  Its south facing though, so there's that.

I will start small, I plan to build a shed and think I will make it solar powered, maybe like 500w or so for lights etc.  It would get some sun from the west only though as everything around would cast shadows at other angles.

[RedSky]

I live in what I thought was a windy area on a hill with wind mainly coming from one direction, unobstructed by at least a kilometre, and even then the hill in the distance isn't much higher than me and treeless.

I put up a 500 watt wind generator (one with big 1m blades) on a 6 metre pole.    The area is suburban with double sized quarter acre blocks, but i'm still close to the neighbours like any regular suburb.
The neighbours never complained but it was moderately noisy at times.

I soon realised that you need insane levels of wind constantly to get reasonable output from the wind generator.    I logged the output daily. measured peaks. and the turbine could generate it's rated output or above when in a wind storm.

After running logging for about a year.  I found out I was getting just 75 watt hours on average a day in my supposed windy location.   a single 20 watt solar panel would beat that here per day when averaged yearly.    The wind generator was working perfectly, with the same output as always in extremely heavy winds, it wasn't a dud, it just needs those extreme winds always to make a decent output.

After having it up for several years I pulled it down, even though it was a stack of effort to put it up in the first place, and it was still functioning perfectly well.  It's just not worth pissing off your neighbours or all the installation effort, when ONE little solar panel will beat it easily. unless you live on a remote treeless island or have room for a gigantic turbine.
A 100 watt panel would beat nearly any wind generator up to 1kW in most suburban areas of the world.    and a 100 watt panel will set you back $100, have zero maintenance, much easier to mount, quiet and neighbour friendly, and no safety concerns.

[2N3055]

...
After having it up for several years I pulled it down, after a stack of effort to put it up in the first place, and with it still functioning perfectly well.  It's just not worth pissing your neighbours off or all the effort, when ONE little solar panel will beat it easily. unless you live on a remote treeless island or have room for a gigantic turbine.
A 100 watt panel would beat nearly any wind generator up to 1kW in most suburban areas of the world.    and a 100 watt panel will set you back $100, have zero maintenance, much easier to mount, quiet and neighbor friendly, and no safety concerns.

I installed similar one for friend.. Same story...
Micro turbines are not working well in residential areas....
Good news, he didn't have noise problem... Too high start speed, it worked only in a storm, really... 

We replaced it with 100W panel.. Works like charm...

[LabSpokane]

There's a reason professional wind developers refer to any turbine under 20kW as: "Recreational Wind." 

Wind is just a "go big or go home" endeavor.

[2N3055]

There's a reason professional wind developers refer to any turbine under 20kW as: "Recreational Wind." 

Wind is just a "go big or go home" endeavor.

Well said..

[Red Squirrel]

My main train of thought is that for most of the year we get maybe 6-8 hours of daylight here, so solar alone will not produce enough unless you have a LARGE array and LARGE battery bank, ex: a battery bank you can charge fully in the summer months, then have enough capacity for the whole year, and simply trickle charge it a tad in the day which would simply slow down the overall discharge rate, but never fully charge it.  The days are simply too short and nights are too long.  Sun is down by 5pm and comes back up around 8am.

But yeah it sounds like wind is not really viable at small scale so I'll forget that.   I think my dream of going off grid simply won't work where I am as I would need a bigger property for an alternate source to top up batteries half way through the night.  So I'll probably concentrate on doing a small setup that will selectively power certain loads but not the whole house.  I'm thinking I would just have various outlets throughout the house that go to a separate electrical panel that is powered by the inverter.  Could plug all the phantom and occasional use loads in it.  TV, lights, that kind of stuff.  Maybe a few computers.  Would also act as a backup source of power so if power goes out I still have basic power. 

[fourtytwo42]

My main train of thought is that for most of the year we get maybe 6-8 hours of daylight here, so solar alone will not produce enough unless you have a LARGE array and LARGE battery bank, ex: a battery bank you can charge fully in the summer months, then have enough capacity for the whole year, and simply trickle charge it a tad in the day which would simply slow down the overall discharge rate, but never fully charge it.  The days are simply too short and nights are too long.  Sun is down by 5pm and comes back up around 8am.

But yeah it sounds like wind is not really viable at small scale so I'll forget that.   I think my dream of going off grid simply won't work where I am as I would need a bigger property for an alternate source to top up batteries half way through the night.  So I'll probably concentrate on doing a small setup that will selectively power certain loads but not the whole house.  I'm thinking I would just have various outlets throughout the house that go to a separate electrical panel that is powered by the inverter.  Could plug all the phantom and occasional use loads in it.  TV, lights, that kind of stuff.  Maybe a few computers.  Would also act as a backup source of power so if power goes out I still have basic power.

I think you have it in a nutshell there, even I live in a small rural village I cannot go offgrid due to poor wind turbine performance (not enough land) and being 52degN (Alberta is 56deg right ?). Instead my solar makes a contribution (heating water presently) as does the house insulation, CCFL lamps etc. It depends what you are aiming for, economics or save the planet! For me it's the former so I would never buy batteries as the payback is very very poor, I use the grid as my battery except I don't charge it As for separate wiring it,s not very practicable (ruined decorations, angry wife etc) compared to installing a GTI that allows the existing wiring to be shared. I must admit however that doesn't cover for grid failure but despite gloomy predictions about future power shortages here we just get a few failures a year from trees falling over lines and they get fixed in a couple of hours max. So again I wouldn't invest in batteries to cover that, but that's my personal choice, just my reasoning

[IanMacdonald]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but one of the key issues with an urban turbine is that it will get blamed for any and all TV reception problems, even if it's not the actual culprit. Noise is perhaps not as serious an issue as some claim, but sun strobing is if it falls on a neighbour's windows. In any event the return from small turbines is poor compared to larger units on high towers, because there tends to be a 'wind gradient' at 300ft or so. Thus, the big industrial units are actually a better economic proposition, through being in a stronger airflow.

Solar, that depends lot on your latitude and cloud cover. In the UK you will get very little output during December and January. Which means you need some way to cover quite a long period with no solar charge, otherwise your batteries are going to suffer. Not to mention having little power at the time of year you most need it.