Author Topic: New test equipment from Rigol release.  (Read 24860 times)

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Offline hendorog

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2015, 10:37:32 am »
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Ya.  It's hard to grip on their really cheap stuff, but I pulled a dumbass move and bought a MSO4000,   :palm:   :palm:   :palm:   :palm:   Their support is worse than pathetic, oh well, learned my lesson.

Whats the problem?
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2015, 10:48:47 am »
Whats the problem?

It's been extensively discussed here, find the MSO4000 bugs thread, among others.

In addition, I've written many detailed support emails, they never respond.  Heck, when new firmware is released I sometimes have to request it 3-4 times before they respond.

Offline hendorog

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2015, 10:53:55 am »
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It's been extensively discussed here, find the MSO4000 bugs thread, among others.

Got a link?

I've got a DS4014 and am interested to know.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2015, 01:21:36 pm »
Rigol were the first maker to come out with a cheap 1GS/s bench scope (the DS5000 series)

Wasn't the DS5000 essentially just a copy of some old Tek lunchbox scope (TDS2xx?)? I'm not sure that really counts as being innovative.

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What I dislike is the big amount of bugs in the firmwares and the lack of a dynamic response to fix them, that unmotivates me to buy their products.
I am seeing bugs being fixed in the firmware for my scope - How are other manufacturers different?

They are different in that most bugs are resolved before the product is released while Rigol (and more so Siglent!) throw a product on the market when the firmware still is essentially in beta phase (not that it matters, as it doesn't seem Rigol or Siglent have proper software quality and development processes in place anyways).

What makes matters worse is that Rigol (and Siglent) don't even have set support life cycles, so you don't know for how long a product will actually be supported, and that could very well mean many problems won't ever get fixed.

This aside, the fact that Rigol still requires customer to beg their support for getting sent a firmware update file while anyone else (even Siglent!) offers them as simple downloads on their website is beyond pathetic.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 01:24:59 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Online coppice

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2015, 01:39:22 pm »
FWIW I'm happy with my cheap Rigol shit for two years and counting :)
And how many power cycles has it done?
Why does that matter?
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Oh that's right Rigols don't have a bootstrap counter.  :palm:
And..? What use is that to anyone?

Wank feature?  :palm:
Theres really no use for that in electronics.
A boot counter is largely useless. Most expensive electronics, industrial and consumer, now records its powered on hours, which is a lot more meaningful in terms of wear and tear. If you have a big screen TV, check its menus. There's probably a powered on hours counter in there somewhere.
 

Online Macbeth

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2015, 01:42:54 pm »
Personally I'm glad that Rigol don't go creating new models every year. Next thing they will be giving them away for free, but you have to have a mobile meter contract with a paid for measurement allowance per month. Go over and hefty fees apply. Testing more exotic components will require a "international roaming fee". If you want to flog it on Buy/Sell you will have to get your Rigol carrier unlocked. The USA will make it illegal to unlock your meters and scopes.

OP, you will be pleased to know Rigol did put a toe in the water by releasing Special Editions...



Thankfully nothing came of it :-DD (thanks to eevblogger Spawn for this  :-+ )
 

Online Macbeth

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2015, 01:47:32 pm »
This aside, the fact that Rigol still requires customer to beg their support for getting sent a firmware update file while anyone else (even Siglent!) offers them as simple downloads on their website is beyond pathetic.
Hyperbole? Rigol require a webform with model, serial numbers and an email address. No doubt to catch hardware platforms that the firmware is not compatible with. It's pretty much automated and you get the a link to the file emailed within 10 minutes even outside of work hours.
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2015, 01:52:58 pm »
you get the a link to the file emailed within 10 minutes even outside of work hours.

No you don't, I've done it dozens of times for my 815, DG400 and MSO4000.  Usually requires 3-4 attempts before support finally replies, and i've waiting days between each attempt.

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2015, 02:33:56 pm »
This aside, the fact that Rigol still requires customer to beg their support for getting sent a firmware update file while anyone else (even Siglent!) offers them as simple downloads on their website is beyond pathetic.
Hyperbole? Rigol require a webform with model, serial numbers and an email address. No doubt to catch hardware platforms that the firmware is not compatible with.

If that's the reason then they are even worse than I assumed, as the proper way to deal with this is to have your flasher check the hardware variant before starting to flash, it's really not rocket science.

I also doubt that there are so many incompatible hardware combinations of Rigol products out there. In fact, the only one I'm aware is the old DG1022 and DG1022U (if I remember right). Pretty stupid to withold all firmware updates of all products just because one product has a compatibility problem.

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It's pretty much automated and you get the a link to the file emailed within 10 minutes even outside of work hours.

BS. It's not automated (the reply I got was from one of their support staff), and it took three attempts to even get that reply with the latest firmware for my DG1062z.

You can try to twist it as much as you want, fact is that other competitors (which, again, even includes Siglent) can easily manage offering firmware downloads, so why can't Rigol?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 02:36:14 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Online Macbeth

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2015, 02:47:21 pm »
I'm not twisting anything. My only Rigols are the DP832 and the DM3058E. My most recent firmware upgrades have been via the webform and I've used it on the weekend out of hours so at least with some firmwares the update is automated. I agree it's a stupid way of doing it when a download section should be enough, but it's not a big deal really.
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2015, 02:51:53 pm »
The webform just goes to a support engineer, you got lucky, somebody happen to be there over the weekend.

Offline Corporate666

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2015, 04:50:51 pm »
Yes they are selling because they are cheap.

Any shit will sell if it is cheap. Just go to any dollar store and see it for yourself.

ADDED: @OP - you do not want any old or new rigol shit, time will come and you will thank you me for this.

Since Rigol outsells competitors that have (sometimes significantly) cheaper products, obviously you are wrong. 

And your edit proves you have some beef with Rigol and presumably don't care about being wrong - since it's not about right/wrong but about bashing Rigol.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2015, 05:03:38 pm »
Yes, but most of them did perform vastly inferior

They are selling because they offer decent performance at a low price.

In other words "bang for the buck" - Rigol has great bang for the buck.  There is cheaper stuff out there, but it's often/generally inferior.  And the stuff that is better is a lot more expensive. 

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I never said Apple was free from problems (they certainly aren't), but especially their software is vastly more complex than Rigol's firmware, and while iOS regularly comes with some annoying bugs it's not half as bad as when Rigol produces a new product with a new firmware. So yes, iphone development requires much more resources than developing some low end scope like a Rigol DS1kz or DS2k.

I disagree with your assessment that "it's not half as bad as when Rigol produces a new product".  The bugs discovered in things like the Rigol scopes and function gens are minor.  Very minor.  You're talking about engineers who tend to be pedantic and excruciatingly detailed and technical, and will whine about a bug that makes a reading inaccurate, when they may never use that function and would never have known about the bug unless told.  On the other hand, who doesn't use maps in the iPhone?  Or who doesn't notice their iPhone running hot and guzzling battery?  I've had 2 Apple devices become painfully slow to the point of being unusable when new firmware came out, and you don't get a choice in the matter - if you try it and don't like it... too bad, no way to go back. 

Point being - if software or hardware has any level of complexity, it will have bugs.  It's not indicative of shitty design or R&D, it's just life.

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Rigol was the first to get price/features right but isn't the only one. Siglent offers mostly similar kit in this class (and for some things like low end AWGs even has a much more attractive portfolio than Rigol), aside from the DS1kz (and I'll guess we'll see some competition there, soon).

Well, from the test equipment sellers I know well enough to talk about sales - Rigol is destroying Siglent in sales.  So the market doesn't agree that their portfolio is much more attractive, or even more attractive at all.


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Rigol will come up with new products when they feel the need for it, i.e. when there are more similar products and sales figures will drop. Until then they'll just sell on what they have now.

Yes, like every company in the history of commerce does.  The only companies that engage in R&D for the sake of it are those run by engineers who are shitty businessmen and they tend to go out of business quickly.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2015, 05:09:35 pm »
Whats the problem?

It's been extensively discussed here, find the MSO4000 bugs thread, among others.

In addition, I've written many detailed support emails, they never respond.  Heck, when new firmware is released I sometimes have to request it 3-4 times before they respond.

Their support is the big problem with Rigol - as in, it sucks.

But it's not that they don't fix issues or don't update firmware... they just don't do it efficiently.  I've found them to be very helpful and customer-friendly, but you have to light a fire under their ass to get something done. 

Do you have the name/number of a tech person @ Rigol USA?  If not, PM me and I will send you one... it's a lot easier to have a single person to call and say "hey this is Bob, I emailed you last week about <issue X>, haven't heard back - what's the next step?" than to send endless emails into the void.

I am not sure if support just isn't a priority for Rigol, or if they are just overworked, or they just don't have CRM software or someone in charge of support who knows WTF they are doing, or what the problem is, but they ought to look at fixing it, especially if they want to sell higher end gear.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Online Macbeth

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2015, 05:19:20 pm »
Yes, like every company in the history of commerce does.  The only companies that engage in R&D for the sake of it are those run by engineers who are shitty businessmen and they tend to go out of business quickly.
Oh I dunno, HP lasted ages until that Fiorina bint destroyed it.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2015, 06:19:42 pm »
Yes, like every company in the history of commerce does.  The only companies that engage in R&D for the sake of it are those run by engineers who are shitty businessmen and they tend to go out of business quickly.
Oh I dunno, HP lasted ages until that Fiorina bint destroyed it.

I don't think the comment meant to say that every company run by engineers is headed for a problem, I think it meant to say that R&D for the sake of R&D without business objectives in mind could become a problem.  For decades HP had great R&D and great engineering leadership but also great business leadership, a great culture and they changed the world for the better while making a lot of money for HP, HPers, and pretty much their entire ecosystem including customers who built good businesses using HP products. 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 06:22:51 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline dadler

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2015, 06:53:50 pm »
you get the a link to the file emailed within 10 minutes even outside of work hours.

No you don't, I've done it dozens of times for my 815, DG400 and MSO4000.  Usually requires 3-4 attempts before support finally replies, and i've waiting days between each attempt.

I've never waited longer than 5 minutes, in my 15+ requests.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2015, 07:14:08 pm »
I disagree with your assessment that "it's not half as bad as when Rigol produces a new product".  The bugs discovered in things like the Rigol scopes and function gens are minor.  Very minor.

"Minor", seriously???  :wtf: Have you looked at the various nasty issues the DSA800 had (lockups, Power Sweep and other stuff non-working)? Or the long list of bugs the DS1000z and the DS4000 Series suffered when they came out (and they still suffer from many of them)? There are very long threads in this very forum, which are pretty hard to ignore.

People can forgive some of the bugs because of the low price, but reality is that most big brands would be ashamed to release devices with such immature firmware (not saying it never happens, but when it does it's an exception while for Rigol it's just normal).

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You're talking about engineers who tend to be pedantic and excruciatingly detailed and technical, and will whine about a bug that makes a reading inaccurate, when they may never use that function and would never have known about the bug unless told.


What silly drivel. :palm: 

For one, the people who tend to buy Rigol are mostly hobbyists and beginners, and they are usually much more forgiving towards those problems than experienced engineers. Do you really think any professional would accept that some of the functionality of what at the end of the day is a tool doesn't work or works erroneously? No serious lab would waste valuable engineer's time to work around flaws of a cheap piece of test equipment. There's a reason why the big brands still have a strong foothold in the professional sector, with cheap brands like Rigol or Siglent being close to irrelevance even when looking only at low end test gear.

Second, and more important, it is completely irrelevant if a device is owned by a pedantic person or not, or if the owner actually needs a specific function or not. Any buyer can rightfully expect that the functionality that was promoted works correctly when the device was bought, and not at some arbitrary point in the future. In many countries this is even by law. If you're satisfied when functionality in a product you bought and for which you paid for doesn't work then more fool to you.

I get that you're obviously fascinated by Rigol kit, but the main reason some Rigol kit is worth buying is because it's cheap, and good enough for modest requirements of most beginners and many hobbyists, and because of the low price and because for them electronics is just a hobby and not a way to earn a living, they can usually live with the fact that the kit is buggy and that they will have to wait for problems to be fixed.

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Rigol was the first to get price/features right but isn't the only one. Siglent offers mostly similar kit in this class (and for some things like low end AWGs even has a much more attractive portfolio than Rigol), aside from the DS1kz (and I'll guess we'll see some competition there, soon).

Well, from the test equipment sellers I know well enough to talk about sales - Rigol is destroying Siglent in sales.  So the market doesn't agree that their portfolio is much more attractive, or even more attractive at all.

More hyperbole? Your electronics cornershop may sell more Rigol kit than Siglent, but the fact is that most of Siglent's kit is sold under the label of other brands, from bottom-of-the-barrel names like Atten to Teledyne LeCroy. Rigol kit these days is, well, sold as Rigol (I think Agilent/Keysight stopped sales of their Rigol rebadges a while ago).

Also, while Rigol's DS1054z scope is a clear winner as a beginner's scope, other Rigol kit isn't necessarily as attractive. For example, for low end AWGs Rigol still only offers the outdated DG1022U which looks pretty poor against the Siglent's SDG800 and SDG1000 Series of AWGs, which happen to sell really well. And Rigol's more expensive kit is even more unattractive, i.e. the DS4000 and DS6000 scopes (which are pretty awful offerings in this class and price range), which is why they sell pretty bad. The Rigol DG4000 is a decent AWG (although like other Rigol products it arrived with embarassing bugs), but the same can't be said about the newer DG1000z Series which is pretty expensive, and again suffers from some annoying problems.

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Rigol will come up with new products when they feel the need for it, i.e. when there are more similar products and sales figures will drop. Until then they'll just sell on what they have now.

Yes, like every company in the history of commerce does.  The only companies that engage in R&D for the sake of it are those run by engineers who are shitty businessmen and they tend to go out of business quickly.

First, Rigol doesn't do "Research". Nada, zilch. They certainly do "Development" but all based on cheap standard COTS components. Most of their effort is probably limited to the case/shielding and the PCB layout, plus the firmware. This is why Rigol can be so cheap.

Companies that do "Research" usually do it to push technology further which gives them an edge over their competition, plus it increases the company's patent portfolio which can be helpful in case they are sued for infringement. But "Research" costs money, money which in some cases the company will never (fully) recover if some new technology turns out to be a dead end.

The fact that Rigol mostly uses cheap components to create simpler and cheaper devices is perfectly fine, and products like theirs obviously have a place in the market. But it's silly to think that they have similar long and complex development cycles like the big brands who do a lot of research and design their own ASICs.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 10:49:31 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2015, 01:14:43 am »
I've never waited longer than 5 minutes, in my 15+ requests.

 :-DD

Offline dadler

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2015, 01:57:42 am »
I've never waited longer than 5 minutes, in my 15+ requests.

 :-DD

Maybe you should check your spam filters/email provider. The emails that contain the firmware links are sent automatically by a script.
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2015, 02:00:23 am »
Maybe you should check your spam filters/email provider. The emails that contain the firmware links are sent automatically by a script.

 :-DD

Offline dadler

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2015, 02:01:02 am »
Yeah, you add a lot to the conversation. Classy.
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2015, 02:10:20 am »
Yeah, you add a lot to the conversation. Classy.

I've never waited longer than 5 minutes, in my 15+ requests.

 :-DD    :-DD    :-DD    :-DD

Offline tech5940

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New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2015, 02:48:49 am »
you get the a link to the file emailed within 10 minutes even outside of work hours.

No you don't, I've done it dozens of times for my 815, DG400 and MSO4000.  Usually requires 3-4 attempts before support finally replies, and i've waiting days between each attempt.

It worked for me, I got a response on a Saturday in the early morning hours.  Im in Canada, email was sent to Rigol North America via the web form.  It was for DP832 firmware. Hmm maybe only some models have automatic response scripts? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 02:53:39 am by tech5940 »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: New test equipment from Rigol release.
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2015, 03:05:05 am »
Could be a new video for Dave.  Instead of comparing products for Volts, Amps, and Ohms accuracy he could submit requests for product firmware and other support, and then compare responses for timeliness :)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 03:08:33 am by Electro Fan »
 


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