Rigol DS4024 opinions

[tautech]

Have a look at what Trio Test have to offer.

So did ya ?
https://www.triotest.com.au/store/7-oscilloscopes

Yes I did. Thanks all for the opinions, by all means keep them coming.

I am mulling over the Siglent SDS2000 series as well, perhaps the SDS2204X.

Sure the sampling speed is only half of the 4000 but check the SDS2kX memory depth, that unleashes the real power of a DSO.

[nctnico]

Have a look at what Trio Test have to offer.

So did ya ?
https://www.triotest.com.au/store/7-oscilloscopes

Yes I did. Thanks all for the opinions, by all means keep them coming.

I am mulling over the Siglent SDS2000 series as well, perhaps the SDS2204X.

Don't. These are old and they can't use the deep memory for several things (like hi-res) because they have no processing power at all. There are much better ways to spend the money.

[MrW0lf]

Maybe because I'm green at high MHz game but would have not expected input capacitances so high if compare to low-end scope What would be the cause? Technical incapability, trying to support 100MHz probes, ...

Rigol 4000: 15pF+-3pF
Rigol 7000: 17pF+-3pF
Keysight DSO 3000 X: 14pF+-1%
R&S RTM3000: 14pF+-1pF
Tek 4000C: 13 pF
Siglent SDS1004X-E: 15pF±2 pF

I guess for proper upper VHF performance, you need a scope with a front-end particularly made for that.

Would ~10pF input qualify?

[tautech]

Have a look at what Trio Test have to offer.

So did ya ?
https://www.triotest.com.au/store/7-oscilloscopes

Yes I did. Thanks all for the opinions, by all means keep them coming.

I am mulling over the Siglent SDS2000 series as well, perhaps the SDS2204X.

Don't. These are old and they can't use the deep memory for several things (like hi-res) because they have no processing power at all. There are much better ways to spend the money.

Don't ? 
What, settle for a lesser spec'ed GW 2000E, with half the sampling rate, less wfms/s and a fraction of the mem depth ?
Yeah, right !

Nico's experience with SDS2204 was before that series was upgraded with a totally new version of firmware and before they were further HW upgraded to the 2000X series of today.
So he surely knows what he's talking about. Not. 

[nctnico]

An oscilloscope is way more than just memory depth and waveforms/s! What good does deep memory do if you can't decode it, you can't use it for math, can't use it in hi-res mode? Waveforms/s is just a marketing BS number.

Here are the things the GDS2000E can do and the SDS2000(X) can not:
- 1Mpts FFT
- free form math
- math on all waveform data
- search all waveform data
- save to PNG image format
- adjustable input filtering (instead of hi-res on 1400 samples or so)
- protocol decoding using the entire memory (instead of what is on screen)
- data logging
- have bugs fixed in a timely manner

Besides that the 500Ms/s samplerate on the GDS2000E is good enough for having 4 channels at 200MHz. With the 300MHz hack you'll get 2 channels capable of 300MHz with 1Gs/s.

The SDS2000X series is seriously outdated due to lack of processing power. The newer low end Siglent models at least have some processing power under the hood to do something meaningfull with the acquired data.

Maybe the GDS-2000E looks lesser on paper but for me it replaced an Agilent DSO7104A because it turned out to work better (as a general purpose oscilloscope) and easier to use.

[TurboTom]

Do we have to start again these "Scope Wars"  ? I think virtually all forum members know that there are some individuals among us with a strong emphasis towards a certain brand/model of oscilloscope, which is okay. But is it really necessary to start this dispute again in EVERY SINGLE thread that covers that sort of instrument, even if the OP's initial question was completely different? Just calm down a little and keep your temper! Thank you.

[MrW0lf]

Do we have to start again these "Scope Wars"  ? I think virtually all forum members know that there are some individuals among us with a strong emphasis towards a certain brand/model of oscilloscope, which is okay.

Some individuals are also interested how come "500MHz" scope internal 50Ω is only -15dB RL at 500MHz. I'm genuinely puzzled. You basically cannot even use some fancy active probe etc which with high probability would have 50Ω output. Or there is some else workaround? It was all so simple <100MHz

[TurboTom]

@ MrWolf
yes you are right, at least partially. The 'scope may still produce accurate results even though it's not perfectly terminating the 50 Ohms "transmission line". The mismatch only means that some of the incident power will be reflected back into the line (BNC cable). If the source also isn't a good match to the line's impedance, there will be multiple refections and the measurement will be affected. If the source is a reasonably accurate impedance match to the line, the reflected power will be absorbed by the source.

That's also the reason that it's always a good habit to use a (resistive) attenuator in front of an instrument since it will considerably improve the impedance match to the transmission line / source. On the other hand, especially in case of the "highly" capacitive input of the 'scope, it may form a low pass and affect the amplitude / phase accuracy. Some scopes use some kind of pre-emphasis when the input is configured to 50 Ohms to restore the signal, provided the source is accurately 50 Ohms resistive impedance. This may actually result in some distortion an low (audio) frequencies where usually high impedance probes get used. The DS4000 Series works this way, see the screenshots (no attenuator used, somehow my "nice ones" gone missing...).

I configured output 1 of an SDG6000X AWG to be 50 Ohms, output 2 high impedance (actually, the output impedance of both outputs is always 50 Ohms, the difference is the way the amplitude is calculated). Both cannels are programmed to provide a square of 1Vpp of the same freqency. Output 1 is connected directly (via an RG316 coax cable) to channel 1 (50 Ohm) of the MSO4000, output 2 via a 10:1 (150MHz) probe with a BNC/probe adapter to channel 3 of the scope. I measured the probe capacitance at the tip to be almost exactly 15pF. The difference between the signal at three test frequencies (1kHz, 1MHz, 50MHz) is quite peculiar.

[MrW0lf]

@ MrWolf
yes you are right, at least partially.

Spot on, and thanks for good testing, we need more graphs and screenshots not knitting club style chatter about how different knobs feel to touch. I've been playing my setup and . High-tech SMA terminator marked good to 6GHz was 48Ω. So I checked all my terminators and selected most accurate. Next I discovered that physical distance from DUT to port and from REF terminator to its port makes huge difference in my setup. Like 20dB better result difference. Just by adding some "unneeded" connectors. What if your setup has same issue eg scope terminator too far away from RF bridge? Seems it's a balancing act.

[John B]

Do we have to start again these "Scope Wars"  ? I think virtually all forum members know that there are some individuals among us with a strong emphasis towards a certain brand/model of oscilloscope, which is okay. But is it really necessary to start this dispute again in EVERY SINGLE thread that covers that sort of instrument, even if the OP's initial question was completely different? Just calm down a little and keep your temper! Thank you.

I am getting a bit indecisive with all the back and forth. I think at this point I am willing to try the Siglent SDS2000 series. I don't imagine it's perfect, but it sits in a good middle ground of bandwith and memory depth, plus 4 channels are available (with 2Gs/s available on 2 out of 4 channels simultaneously if needed if I'm remembering correct). This is comparing it to the Rigol 2000 series (which don't have 4 channels at all?).

To get into the Rigol 7000 series is going to be $3.5k and I find it a little patronising that all that hardware is there and it's just software limited to 100Mhz. 200Mhz will then bump it to $6k.

[tautech]

Do we have to start again these "Scope Wars"  ? I think virtually all forum members know that there are some individuals among us with a strong emphasis towards a certain brand/model of oscilloscope, which is okay. But is it really necessary to start this dispute again in EVERY SINGLE thread that covers that sort of instrument, even if the OP's initial question was completely different? Just calm down a little and keep your temper! Thank you.

I am getting a bit indecisive with all the back and forth.

No need to, there's just a longstanding dislike of Siglent equipment by Nico after a bad run he had with a very early SDS2204 (pre X series). He likes to get a dig in whenever he can and it shouldn't go unchallenged as he doesn't have Siglent scopes now yet claims he's some authority on them. 

I think at this point I am willing to try the Siglent SDS2000 series. I don't imagine it's perfect, but it sits in a good middle ground of bandwith and memory depth, plus 4 channels are available (with 2Gs/s available on 2 out of 4 channels simultaneously if needed if I'm remembering correct). This is comparing it to the Rigol 2000 series (which don't have 4 channels at all?).

I have a SDS2304X, fully optioned and it's a powerful scope with a large display and nice front panel layout and UI.
If there's anything you'd like to know about them please ask.

To get into the Rigol 7000 series is going to be $3.5k and I find it a little patronising that all that hardware is there and it's just software limited to 100Mhz. 200Mhz will then bump it to $6k.

All manufacturers do this, SW limit the HW.......to a point but then only minor HW changes are applied to increase the BW to the top models in a range.
Hell, even long haul truck motors are SW limited and if you want more HP it costs more $.

[nctnico]

I am getting a bit indecisive with all the back and forth.

No need to, there's just a longstanding dislike of Siglent equipment by Nico after a bad run he had with a very early SDS2204 (pre X series). He likes to get a dig in whenever he can and it shouldn't go unchallenged as he doesn't have Siglent scopes now yet claims he's some authority on them. 

Sorry Tautech but you are misrepresenting the facts here (again). You know well enough I keep myself informed on oscilloscopes and I really don't need to own a particular model right now to have an opinion on it. Perhaps you should take an example from the people from Tektronix, R&S and Keysight present on this forum. Personal attacks are quite unprofessional. Better stick to the facts.

Heck, I even mentioned the newer SDS1000X-E series which AFAIK has better FFT and bode plotting.

[tautech]

Better stick to the facts.

Heck, I even mentioned the newer SDS1000X-E series which AFAIK has better FFT and bode plotting.

Facts are, the OP originally had done enough homework to envisage a DS4000 is what he wanted, therefore an 8" display and a healthy sampling rate is what he was prepared to shell out for and so not sell himself short into the future with an underspec'ed DSO.
SDS1kX-E are an entry level DSO, 1/2 the sampling rate and a small fraction of the memory of the 2000X range and while the X-E have a lot of features the 2000X MSO package should he want it is in another class compared to the X-E range.
With the 2000X inbuilt AWG there is the capability to do Bode plot but without the phase info the X-E offers but for much less cost that the external X-E AWG and with better specs.
Power Analysis is another powerful feature the 2000X series offers despite your claims of inadequate processing power.
When offering advice, yes we best stick to the facts, offer them and let the buyer decide, after all it's their money.

[TurboTom]

@JohnB
As I understood, this would be your first digital oscilloscope. I think it's a reasonable decision to go for a four channel machine. This would permit analyzing synchronous digital communications with separate transmit and receive lines (SPI for example). Since you mentioned microcontrollers / arduino stuff as one of your possible applications, you will likely need that. Alternatively, you could go for an instrument with two analog channels and an MSO option (logic analyzer) that provides protocol analysis on the digital lines. There's rarely the situation to really need more than two analog channels.

Since the price differences are quite steep, my recommendation would be to go for an entry level model first (this would set you back by somewhere between 300 and 600 USD). There's the Siglent SDS1000X-E series which is quite a modern platform with a good performance. The Rigol DS1000Z has been a class of its own for several years but nowadays may look a little dated, yet still a versatile and very affordable four channel scope. The GW-Instek GDS1000B series may be an option but at least in Europe it's a good bit more pricy than the others and hence I never looked closer at it, especially since I'm (too) well equipped with scopes... If you later find that you need something more capable, you will know better what features in particular you are looking for. You can sell the entry level scope with little loss or just keep it as a back-up unit.

To be honest, the instrument I still use the most, simply due to its very compact form factor, it's versatility and its lower weight, is my DS1054Z ("riglol'ed"  ). In at least 95% of the situations it's performing as good or better (more modern firmware) than my other "main" scope, the MSO4000 (also "improved"). A few years later, I couldn't resist a really good opportunity to get a DS2072A-S from Rigol EU Clearance Sales (must have been 625 EUR IIRC) to replace an ancient TDS220 in my mess of a "basement lab". I was lucky this scope contained the full MSO hardware, so it was an easy "fix"... Compared to the old TEK it replaces, it's miles ahead but to the others, well, it just fits in the range. It's quite surprising that on the DS1000Z, Rigol adressed the (previously) piss-poor FFT, added signal filtering (math) options and made the derivative (math) function at least usable by firmware updates, while on the "upper range platforms" - well, meh..., just bug fixing (no, wait, the protocol decodes do work on memory and not only screen contents and also in zoom and segmented mode).

Business-wise, any of these scopes do serve me well (basically doing power, digital, analog and mixed signal control stuff, nothing high-speed, ultra-high-frequency or otherwise fancy), as probably would an SDS1000X-E or a GDS1000B or what not. The high bandwidth of the "liberated" MSO4000 is a fun thing (hobby, just like much of my other test gear...) but other than that, there's really little that this scope is doing better than the other models I've got. If I had to buy an oscilloscope for 3000+ EUR or USD today, I'ld probably have a close look at Rohde&Schwarz RTB2000 series, though I really hate that company for not offering the limited introductory version/pricing abroad...

[rsjsouza]

If serial decoding is required, one detail is that the GDS1000B series from Instek does not have this feature, which puts it quite behind the other models at the same price range.

Regarding the decoders on the DS4000 series, it is no small difference from the other Rigol series that they perform the decoding operation from the entire memory and not only from what is shown on the screen, severely narrowing the usability of this feature. Fortunately the competition caught up and their lower ranges offer a better implemented solution.

To the OP: I think that your choice of the SDS2000X series is a good choice, as well as the GDS2000E (not A) - you will get an excellent scope with many great features and well within your budget. The real fact is that the bickering between these nctnico and tautech is as ancient as the conflict of the middle east and has no solution in sight.

[nctnico]

If serial decoding is required, one detail is that the GDS1000B series from Instek does not have this feature, which puts it quite behind the other models at the same price range.

The GDS1000B can be hacked to get decoding and more bandwidth which puts it in the same position as the Rigol DS1054Z.

[pascal_sweden]

Still it will look as ugly as before after the hacking! Nothing that can change that ugly look! Not even a hack

[MrW0lf]

Screenshot for a change This discussion was very useful - it did not occur to me before to use both probe and passthrough for bandwidth measurement:

Bodnar's pulser. Magenta is directly on scope BNC (1MΩ). Green is addition of passthrough and best is cyan trace of quite long probing snake: Probe + BNC adapter + F-F adapter + passthrough. Yet 0.35/2.2ns=159MHz
As for low frequency artefacts - could not reproduce, only very faint differences. Also did one try with SDG2122X and there direct connection of probe gives worst result. It has to be either PT at scope end or at signal gen directly on output before probe.

[rsjsouza]

If serial decoding is required, one detail is that the GDS1000B series from Instek does not have this feature, which puts it quite behind the other models at the same price range.

The GDS1000B can be hacked to get decoding and more bandwidth which puts it in the same position as the Rigol DS1054Z.

Nico, it is a bit reckless to advertise that this platform actually supports decoding when the manufacturer says otherwise. From what I read this is quite an incipient hack that may have been pulled either due to product positioning (to not eat away GDS2000E sales) or to simply malfunction. If you are 100% sure the oscilloscope supports that without issues, then I will eat my words, of course. 

On the other hand, Rigol and Siglent actually advertise decoding features.

[tv84]

Just a bit more fuel that the OP may not know:

The SDS2000X can also be hacked... to 300MHz (among other things).

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hack/

[John B]

I thought I'd settled on an SDS2304X, but if I understand right, Ill get the 16 digital logic analyser software, but you still have to purchase the physical probe separately. For about $550 of course.

I don't think that's worth purchasing for me. 4 analogue channels would be enough, even for the odd bit of decoding, plus you get to see the actual analogue shape/quality/noise of a digital signal.

So I think that puts the Rigol 4000 back on the choices. Point taken about it being largely abandoned in terms of firmware upgrades, but in it's current state, is it a worthwhile choice?

I'm not sure whether it's an "Australian prices" thing, but all the other major brands - Keysight, GW Instek, Rohde & Schwarz just don't have anything to compete at a reasonable price to the major chinese players. Maybe not a concern to a business or educational institution, but a major hurdle for the lone amateur.

[tautech]

I thought I'd settled on an SDS2304X, but if I understand right, Ill get the 16 digital logic analyser software, but you still have to purchase the physical probe separately. For about $550 of course.

Yes but the AWG and Decode options are got free also. The only option not currently offered in any official Siglent option package is PA.
So for that $550 you'll get the MSO option with HW plus FG (AWG) and Decode options.

[TurboTom]

The DS4000 provides a solid performance as an oscilloscope. Protocol decoders work on the whole acquisition memory but are slow, especially if you use several. FFT is a bad joke. Math is okay-ish except for the derivative. The user interface is acceptable but if you've got the direct comparison of an analog scope or a Keysight (or some other digital scope with a fast U/I), it feels very sluggish. Measurements and statistics are nice and plentiful. As one of the few scopes on the market in its class, it provides a reference input. Yet, it's a good idea to use it since the internal clock is somewhat jittery... I'ld only go for a DS4000 if you get it at a bargain. Exact model is unimportant, provided it's got four channels. Bandwidth can be "improved" with riglol. The "E" models are some kind of unknown territory, I wouldn't get any of those. Rigol US offer a DS4014 in their clearance sales for 1840USD. If that's an acceptable price is something everyone has to answer for himself. I don't know if there's something like the clearance sales available to your country. YMMV

[John B]

I thought I'd settled on an SDS2304X, but if I understand right, Ill get the 16 digital logic analyser software, but you still have to purchase the physical probe separately. For about $550 of course.

Yes but the AWG and Decode options are got free also. The only option not currently offered in any official Siglent option package is PA.
So for that $550 you'll get the MSO option with HW plus FG (AWG) and Decode options.

Fair enough, the 2304X is still basically the frontrunner. Your unrelenting sales pitch hasn't been for nothing 

The DS4000 provides a solid performance as an oscilloscope. Protocol decoders work on the whole acquisition memory but are slow, especially if you use several. FFT is a bad joke. Math is okay-ish except for the derivative. The user interface is acceptable but if you've got the direct comparison of an analog scope or a Keysight (or some other digital scope with a fast U/I), it feels very sluggish. Measurements and statistics are nice and plentiful. As one of the few scopes on the market in its class, it provides a reference input. Yet, it's a good idea to use it since the internal clock is somewhat jittery... I'ld only go for a DS4000 if you get it at a bargain. Exact model is unimportant, provided it's got four channels. Bandwidth can be "improved" with riglol. The "E" models are some kind of unknown territory, I wouldn't get any of those. Rigol US offer a DS4014 in their clearance sales for 1840USD. If that's an acceptable price is something everyone has to answer for himself. I don't know if there's something like the clearance sales available to your country. YMMV

Good summary. The DS4014 locally is going to come in around $2100 US. Maybe not worth worrying about the 4Gsa/s vs 2Gsa/s on the Siglent when everything is put into perspective. Plus "upgrading" the rigol opens a few warranty worm cans.

[tautech]

I thought I'd settled on an SDS2304X, but if I understand right, Ill get the 16 digital logic analyser software, but you still have to purchase the physical probe separately. For about $550 of course.

Yes but the AWG and Decode options are got free also. The only option not currently offered in any official Siglent option package is PA.
So for that $550 you'll get the MSO option with HW plus FG (AWG) and Decode options.

Fair enough, the 2304X is still basically the frontrunner. Your unrelenting sales pitch hasn't been for nothing 

Please don't see it just as a sales pitch, just doing my best to offer facts. At the end of the day it's your choice, your $ and without accurate info how can you make an informed decision ?