Author Topic: Siglent SDS1000(X) / SDS2000(X) or LeCroy WaveAce (Blackfin) hacks?  (Read 9391 times)

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Online tv84

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Anyone with a SDS2000(X) or old SDS1000xxx range has tried a Bandwidth upgrade on these?

Options are easy but BW should require a few more tweaks.

I'm developing a memdump procedure based on SCPI commands that can be used to dump these BF equipments.

If anyone is interested in helping....
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 01:56:58 pm by tv84 »
 

Online tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2018, 09:52:16 pm »
So, resuming:

- SCPI memdump -  :-+
- Options licensing -  :-+
- BW patch - Almost done  (at the moment, it's a single bit toggle to convert from 200 to 300MHz but... may not be enough...  :box: )
 

Offline KeBeNe

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2018, 02:50:07 am »

great work!

the SDS2000X are limited BW by hardware,
How did you do that with the options and the name?
Could you help me, but my skills are bad at programming
 

Online tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2018, 01:30:57 pm »
Can anyone explain precisely the "limitation" in HW?  I would apprecciate some HW photos of a SDS2204X and SDS2304X to compare. (I saw the teardown video but that seems a comparison between a 1000X and a 2000X version!)

Nonetheless, if that's true, taking the HW limitation and adding my patch all becomes official (designations, behavior, SCPI responses, ...)

But, I'm still trying to obtain the signal changes before/after SW patch.

The licenses can be read directly from the memdump, as always;)

« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 03:33:04 pm by tv84 »
 

Offline MasterTech

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2018, 02:32:06 pm »
Weird that the bw is hardware restricted, could be but why go against the hacking spirit ;) keep up the work!
 

Online tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2018, 03:24:58 pm »
These are 3 frames taken from Dave's teardown video.

Showing a SDS2304X (300 MHz) and a comparison to a SDS1000X.
 

Online tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2018, 03:28:47 pm »
These are 2 pics taken from the SDS2204X (200 MHz) being "analysed".

(sorry about resolution)

But, who can spot the differences to the 300 MHz unit?

IMHO it's difficult to conclude visually that the HW "filter" is different (besides different PCB versions...) from the 200 MHz to the 300 MHz. Probably it's only a SW limitation...

BTW, I heard a "rumour" that the SDS1000X/2000X FW, in the past, had a BW license insert menu. If that was true, then there is no HW difference.

Also, if that was true then tell me which version it was and we'll do it "officially".
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 03:44:08 pm by tv84 »
 

Offline MasterTech

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2018, 03:43:34 pm »
IF there was a bw restriction by hardware it would most probably be in the ADCs or close to these and not in the attenuators
 

Offline PhilipPeake

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2018, 04:03:52 pm »
"Options are easy"

Want to share?
 

Offline bugi

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2018, 04:42:27 pm »
Considering that a bandwidth limit "factory option" can be something as simple as inserting couple capacitors (with specific values, that is), and most small SMD ceramic caps have no markings whatsoever, it might be impossible to see the differences visually. One might need to actually measure component differences between models.

That quite horrible looking soldering result in one the photos could indicate manually soldered components, which could in turn indicate that the BW limit would indeed be set at factory by adding the needed components to "stock" PCBs.  Or it could just be a quick fix on a less than perfect board from the automated line.

But then again, if it would be so simple as 2-3 components, finding the differences would still allow relatively easy hack of changing those components by oneself. Even reverse-engineering the front-end might do the trick, but analyzing the differences might be easier/faster.
 

Offline KeBeNe

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2018, 03:50:01 am »
here is my HW mod on 2104x, this changed the 3db limit from around 250Mhz to 350Mhz
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 04:11:39 am by KeBeNe »
 

Offline kado

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2018, 06:23:50 am »
KeBeNe: can't read the red words in the picture. Did you remove or exchange a cap ? Thanks for a little more information.
Karsten


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
 

Offline markus_jlrb

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2018, 06:44:22 am »
FYI,

the AD8370 is a low cost, digitally controlled, variable gain amplifier (VGA)

http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD8370.pdf

-3dB @ 750MHz, 40dB gain range, serial 8-bit interface (7bits without MSB is gain code)

I'm not quite sure if there is a BW restriction by passiv caps.  It's more probably that FW
influence the max BW.

Any comments or expirience on this issue?

Markus

PS.: see fig. 7 - gain code values.

PS2.: Perhaps I'm wrong. The DS describes the influence of the Output C's on page #17++
          If a 1nF cap us used instead of 10pF the differenc is round 2.1dB @ 100MHz.
          So this could be a point to take into account concerning BW max.


« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 07:05:10 am by markus_jlrb »
 

Offline KeBeNe

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2018, 09:51:10 am »
Yes, i have removed this capacitors
 

Offline bugi

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2018, 10:20:16 am »
The AD8370 can be used for adjusting the gain (vertical) somewhat smoothly, but, referring to that same fig.7, note how the bandwidth (-3dB relative to the low-frequency level) is almost the same no matter what gain/setting is used. Having such flat response to as high a bandwidth as possible independent of the gain setting is actually intended for a typical VGA.

(Also note, the page 17 talk on capacitors is about connecting the input signal in AC-coupled mode through caps; in an oscilloscope the connection would likely be DC coupled. Some other arrangement a little bit away from the VGA would be used for bandwidth limit, especially considering that "care must be taken to minimize parasitic capacitance on the input and output. The AD8370 could become unstable with more than a few pF of shunt capacitance on each input".)
 

Online tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2018, 12:43:50 pm »
here is my HW mod on 2104x, this changed the 3db limit from around 250Mhz to 350Mhz

That's precisely what is visible in Dave's teardown, right? His 2304 doesn't have those caps!

So, if the HW change is only removing those caps, I can provide the "cosmetic" sw change.
 

Offline markus_jlrb

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2018, 12:51:48 pm »
@tv84,

But please take into consideration, that this caps are already removed
in the pics you provide for the SDS2204X dso that only provide about
225MHz -3dB BW.

So parhaps the caps value itself makes the difference.

Markus
 

Online tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2018, 01:09:02 pm »
@tv84,

But please take into consideration, that this caps are already removed
in the pics you provide for the SDS2204X dso that only provide about
225MHz -3dB BW.

So parhaps the caps value itself makes the difference.

Markus

If the SDS2204X does not have the caps (as you noticed), then the other components must make the difference.

We'll have to try measure the others components that are hand-soldered.

But, Markus, the PCB that I showed is not precisely the same as Dave's (and KeBeNe).
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 01:13:12 pm by tv84 »
 

Offline markus_jlrb

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2018, 06:25:27 pm »
Dear's

need some help identifying the attached ic's.
Have found them when looking deeper inside
the sds frontend amplifier stage.

One of them could be TI's ADS7822 (12bit ADC 200kHz)
the other named AUE7256 is unkown to me.

And hints which manufacturer and which type these
eight pin ic is.

Thanks in advance for any helpful info.

Markus
 

Online tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2018, 07:38:15 pm »
the other named AUE7256 is unkown to me.

It looks like 7258, not 7256.
 

Offline SMB784

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2018, 09:29:15 pm »
the other named AUE7256 is unkown to me.

It looks like 7258, not 7256.

Looks to me to be 7258 as well.
"Anything will lase if you hit it hard enough."

-Arthur L. Schawlow
 

Offline markus_jlrb

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2018, 07:16:19 am »
But which component with what functionality?

The ADS7822 (12bit ADC 200kHz) - if it is the proper ic - could
be for offset control. See Daves video on YT about R&S DSO.

But what is the 7258 or 7256 and what is the inon (half circle)
stands for?

Markus
 

Online tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2018, 01:46:18 pm »
One of them could be TI's ADS7822 (12bit ADC 200kHz)

Looking at Dave's video, we can see a IC with the same 6552 (and a different reference on top).

So, this is a LMH6552 - LMH6552 1.5-GHz Fully Differential Amplifier.

Look at this thread, they did the same investigations to increase a Keysight scope BW:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-978-keysight-1000x-hacking/375/

Edit1: rf-loop, just discovered this other thread.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 02:09:24 pm by tv84 »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2018, 02:00:28 pm »
Dear's

need some help identifying the attached ic's.
Have found them when looking deeper inside
the sds frontend amplifier stage.

One of them could be TI's ADS7822 (12bit ADC 200kHz)
the other named AUE7256 is unkown to me.

And hints which manufacturer and which type these
eight pin ic is.

Thanks in advance for any helpful info.

Markus

Imho:
AUE = model... nice quesswork (example LMH6629 (sure it is not))
under it I believe there is datecode.

If you analyze even tiny bit this circuit you can see that signal coming in (after relays) is splitted to two pathways   before this IC. Other pathway go to discrete fet HF amplifier  and other pathway (DC and low freq (there you see also AC/DC switch "Cosmo") come to this "AUE"  IC pin 3 and as can see IC output is pin 6.
Without further explanations what I know or do not know or what ever... ;)

I "believe" it is (single) operational amplifier in MSOP8 type case
(This scope front end is classic "dual pathway" (separate pathways for DC-LF and HF) type what is widely used in this kind of oscilloscopes..)

This is only guiding hint and enough from me.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
-
Harmony OS
 

Offline markus_jlrb

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X or SDS1000xxx (Blackfin) hacks?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2018, 05:06:20 pm »
@rf-loop,

thanks for clarification and your hints and link advisory.

Markus

PS.: Btw - what function has the 595 serial/parallel
shift register? Is it needed for relais switching control?

Markus
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 05:31:40 pm by markus_jlrb »
 


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