Author Topic: Altium- I am about to cry!! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( (Read 96175 times)

free_electron · « **Reply #25 on:** April 07, 2012, 09:43:57 pm »

[quote ]Xilinx accounts for less that 1% of the semiconductor market by value. Altera is smaller.
By value is a wrong metric. Intel tops that market because they sell chips that cost 300$ a pop... and 1% of the semiconductor market is STILL a huge amount of money. I'd happily have that deposited in my bank account, you can keep the remaining 99%.

Quote

the point is how many people are doing end-to-end design (schematic , analog , pcb , fpga ,cpu )

My original point (when comparing altium vs 'pen-and-paper' tools) was : what other tools allows you end-to-end ... VERY few , not to say none apart from altium.

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Altium lags behind vendors providing that compiler

NO! Altium NEVER has provided the back end compiler ! They rely on the FPGA vendor tools for that work. All they do is provide the magic glue between the FGPA vendor provided back-end and their front-end.
If the vendor tools update then sometimes altium needs to update as well. That said : do you always use the latest and greates blistering hot new FPGA ? I don't . real development is typically a year or so behind the curve. By that time Altium will have updated. I've never ran into this limit. Last project i did with xilinx (about a year ago) had two Virtex-6's on them ... and those are 3K$ a pop ...

As for the simulator , that is food for thought : Same spice netlist, same models, different sims produces different results .. what does that tell you ... I wouldn't trust any of them ( i don't trust altium's sim either )!

I made a simple current sink circuit with two opamps and a power mosfet in LTspice. According to the sim it would ring and even oscillate like hell when applying a step voltage at the input (using LT1061 opamps and the exact mosfet from the LTspice library). I built it on bench. Works perfectly fine. According to the simulator it couldn't be done.

Simulators should never claim something can't be done , and leave the people already doing it alone.
My simulator is a soldering iron.

ANyway. Each has his own point of view. From what i do i think Altium is a wonderful tool that has let my productivity soar and removed a whole list of recurring problems and time-wasters. Whenever i have to use tools like PADS , Allegro or CB5000 i get frustrated because of lack of simple ways to do certain things. Maybe i'm not proficient enough in those other tools. who knows. I've played with Eagle as well... that's bass-ackwards. Typical product of programmers that have never made a board themselves.

And yes, Altium has its problems too but i'll happily live with them. It still beats the others out there, at least for what i do.

EEVblog · « **Reply #26 on:** April 07, 2012, 10:54:28 pm »

Quote from: free_electron on April 07, 2012, 05:21:04 pm

FPGA's DO have their place and ARE actively used.

For sure.
The problem for Altium is that it didn't take off like they expected. They had the vision that the majority of electronics would use an FPGA, and that they would get cheaper and more plentiful, and eventually replace microcontrollers. It didn't happen of course, and indeed the industry even went in the other direction, with even the FPGA industry returning to "hard" solutions inside FPGA's.
Altium now reailise that a $2 ARM chip can do a heck of a lot more than an FPGA costing 10 times that. Which is why I suspect we haven't seen too much promotion on the FPGA front recently.

Altium spent almost all of their IPO fortune taking the company in the "soft" embedded FPGA direction, and it has provided almost zero return on investment.
Just think what the tool would be like now if they spend that hundreds of millions of dollars on the core PCB/SCH tool...
And as I think Rufus said, the only reason the FPGA/embedded part of Altium designer "sells", is because they forced bundled it with the PCB/SCH tool with their famous slogan "turning the world or electronics design upside down". And they did just that, making the basic PCB tool optional extra! You had to buy the FPGA/embedded tool to get basic PCB layout. It was the craziest decision in the history of EDA.
But from a company perspective it was probably clever, because if it was modular and the shareholders saw that the FPGA part wasn't selling, I suspect "the dream" would have lost support very quickly indeed.

Dave.

Rufus · « **Reply #27 on:** April 07, 2012, 11:10:44 pm »

Quote from: free_electron on April 07, 2012, 09:43:57 pm

By value is a wrong metric. Intel tops that market because they sell chips that cost 300$ a pop...

While high end Vitex-7s are over $100,000 a pop....

EEVblog · « **Reply #28 on:** April 07, 2012, 11:12:14 pm »

Quote from: free_electron on April 07, 2012, 09:43:57 pm

NO! Altium NEVER has provided the back end compiler ! They rely on the FPGA vendor tools for that work. All they do is provide the magic glue between the FGPA vendor provided back-end and their front-end.

True. But Altium must have internal support for the device in order to know how to use it, and work with the back-end vendor tools.
If Altium doesn't support the device you want, then you are left pretty much high and dry. And there is much complaint on the forum about this.
Many people have asked for the ability to somehow add device support themselves, but device support is unfortunately effectively "hard coded" into the product, and they have said that this would be hard to open up.

Dave.

free_electron · « **Reply #29 on:** April 08, 2012, 12:00:09 am »

Quote from: Rufus on April 07, 2012, 11:10:44 pm

While high end Vitex-7s are over $100,000 a pop....

And what is the virtex-7 vs Intel I-7 ratio ? 1 to 1 million ? 1 to 100 million ? ( besides, they're not 100K. More like 9K if you get the fastest speed grade, and if you're a preferred partner you can shave 50% off that price. )
Xilinx isn't making their bulk money off the 3 companies that buy a couple of those a year. Those chip's are the odd ones out anyway. They are lucky if they find one in a whole batch of wafers.

johndoe1395 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 16, 2012, 08:54:15 pm »

Quote from: westfw on April 04, 2012, 07:15:12 am

>> do learn the keyboard shortcuts.
Shudder. I always figure that "you'll want to use keyboard shortcuts" is synonymous with "the GUI sucks."
Of course, it's a very hard problem to have a GUI structure that is both logical and makes it easy to get to the most frequently used functions. About the only keyboard shortcut I have defined in EAGLE is alt-Z for "undo", but I make pretty extensive use of the user-defined GUI menus...

Nope, its synonymous with "I want to work faster and the GUI slows me down"

. I always work with one hand on the keyboard and the other on the mouse. Don't know what would do without keyboard shortcuts on apps like e.g Photoshop.

I've tried almost every EDA tool around, but I've mostly been using Proteus (ares + isis) and Eagle because some projects required me to do so. I can't describe how much I hate to use it, it seems their GUI designers are a bunch of 10year olds with no GUI design experience. I absolutely loathe it. I can't say many good words about the other PCB packages either. Seriously, none of them have any GUI design skills?
However recently I started using/learning Altium designer, I can say I really like it so far. There are a few small things here and there that could be fixed (the menus are MESS) but other than that it is by far the best I've used.

Quote from: free_electron on April 04, 2012, 03:58:39 am

If anyone is interested i can post my altium library. It's large.. 53 Megabyte file , so emailing don't work. I'll post it on my webserver and feed a link. And it gets updated almost daily ( i do a lot of designs ... )

By the way I found this topic through google and I joined the forum because of this post. free_electron if you can provide me with a link for your library I would be forever grateful

. That would save me lots of time since I started using Altium not too long ago and just started populating my library.

free_electron · « **Reply #31 on:** April 16, 2012, 10:38:49 pm »

i will try to upload that tonight to my server. it slipped my mind. too many pots on the stove you know ...
it will put a link on my webpage on the frontpage : www.siliconvalleygarage.com
give it until tomorrow . ( i am in california... so depending on your time zone : you do the math )

sunsocool · « **Reply #32 on:** April 19, 2012, 07:37:09 am »

You are luckly than me ,I have used Altium Designer about 4 years.But recently I have to turn into cadence. I have learned about a month. What a painful day!

johndoe1395 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 28, 2012, 10:19:56 am »

Quote from: free_electron on April 16, 2012, 10:38:49 pm

i will try to upload that tonight to my server. it slipped my mind. too many pots on the stove you know ...
it will put a link on my webpage on the frontpage : www.siliconvalleygarage.com
give it until tomorrow . ( i am in california... so depending on your time zone : you do the math )

At the rist of sounding annoying.... Any chance you have uploaded it yet?

free_electron · « **Reply #34 on:** April 30, 2012, 04:56:58 am »

it's there ! too many pots on the stove ....

www.siliconvalleygarage.com/downloads/vh_altium_library.intLib 22.456 Megabyte.
The file will get updated from time to time. ( my library gets new parts every week

)

M. András · « **Reply #35 on:** April 30, 2012, 07:37:50 pm »

Quote from: free_electron on April 30, 2012, 04:56:58 am

it's there ! too many pots on the stove ....

www.siliconvalleygarage.com/downloads/vh_altium_library.intLib 22.456 Megabyte.
The file will get updated from time to time. ( my library gets new parts every week )

hmm nice collection, how did you do those 3/5mm led models? i mean the 3d models looks nice
im too lazy to do a footprint for some phoenix contact pcb plug terminals, and due to that my little led driver board only exist in my mind (no im not working in electronics)

johndoe1395 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 30, 2012, 08:02:41 pm »

Quote from: free_electron on April 30, 2012, 04:56:58 am

it's there ! too many pots on the stove ....

www.siliconvalleygarage.com/downloads/vh_altium_library.intLib 22.456 Megabyte.
The file will get updated from time to time. ( my library gets new parts every week )

Thanks!!! <3 Those 3d models look great!

free_electron · « **Reply #37 on:** April 30, 2012, 10:45:32 pm »

i grab the step models (in AP214 format) from 3dcontentcentral.
if they don't exist i make them from primitives in altium. it only takes a few minuts to build one after that it's copy and paste.

Lately i have been using Rhino to create true 3d parts. I just bought a license to that program. fantastic software. easy to use , intuitive and i can work both ways.
I just did a heatsink assembly a couple hours ago. ( tunnel with fan , to220 transistors with clips. The manufacturer (Fisher ) sent me the iges file for the aluminum profile, i loaded it in rhino , extruded it to the right length , exported step and plunked it on the board.

I do the same for mulitboard assemblies. From within altium i export a step file of each and every board and then i 'mate' them up in altium. This gives me confidence that all the connectors and holes will line up properly. I can't mess it up. these are 12 layer boards with mulitple daughter cards that mesh around this cooling tunnel. the whole assembly goes in a rack. They are burn-in boards for chips. total cost of the project is about half a million $ ... I don't have to muck about with prototypes. Model it out in Rhino , imprt in altium and export to the board house. for the connectors i grab the modesl from 3dcontentcentral or i go to molex ,amp or tyco website. they provide the step models for free.

grimmjaw · « **Reply #38 on:** July 12, 2013, 10:46:55 am »

I know this is an old thread, but just want to thank free_electron for the library.

analognoise · « **Reply #39 on:** July 14, 2013, 12:16:15 am »

Wow, free_electron, great library. Do you publish any of your designs?

AlfBaz · « **Reply #40 on:** July 14, 2013, 03:34:22 am »

It's been over a year now. I wonder what the OP's thoughts are now with respect to AD and how worthwhile, if at all, its been learning AD

gbyleveldt · « **Reply #41 on:** July 14, 2013, 04:59:04 am »

^^^ I'm also waiting to hear with bated breath. I've been using Eagle for about 8 years now and have managed to get good enough results, even with its clunky interface. I wouldn't mind going over to a better tool, but the thought of learning a new toolset (especially something as intimidating as Altium) is not very appealing if I'm not convinced it would be worth it.

envisionelec · « **Reply #42 on:** July 27, 2013, 11:23:37 pm »

I used Eagle since 2001 and switched to AD in 2009 when I started doing commercial work (rather than as a hobby) because Eagle couldn't reliably import/export industry standard file types. My last Pro license upgrade was for 5.11 although I've used a more recent, free version of 6-something.

Altium was terribly frustrating at first, but became second nature within a few months. I even bought one of those Logitech gaming pads to macro the most used functions on my left hand. Altium always has ways to do exactly what I want whereas Eagle needed some weird algorithim or workaround.

Will I ever go back to Eagle for serious work? No. I enjoy maybe the simplest things: the ability to change a pad of any footprint on the fly without changing the library part. The portability of embedded libraries. 3D flyovers catch placement mistakes (think component height). Variants (variable stuffing). Rooms. Sheet symbols. Powerful CAM editor. The list is longer than my arm, but I enjoy all of these things over and above Eagle for any serious work.

Mi_ka · « **Reply #43 on:** June 30, 2014, 01:31:30 pm »

Quote from: grimmjaw on July 12, 2013, 10:46:55 am

I know this is an old thread, but just want to thank free_electron for the library.

+1 !!

Kudos to Free_electron for this kind gesture even if I may never use AD!

Quote from: free_electron on April 30, 2012, 10:45:32 pm

Lately i have been using Rhino to create true 3d parts. I just bought a license to that program. fantastic software. easy to use , intuitive and i can work both ways.
I just did a heatsink assembly a couple hours ago. ( tunnel with fan , to220 transistors with clips. The manufacturer (Fisher ) sent me the iges file for the aluminum profile, i loaded it in rhino , extruded it to the right length , exported step and plunked it on the board.

I do the same for mulitboard assemblies. From within altium i export a step file of each and every board and then i 'mate' them up in altium. This gives me confidence that all the connectors and holes will line up properly. I can't mess it up. these are 12 layer boards with mulitple daughter cards that mesh around this cooling tunnel. the whole assembly goes in a rack. They are burn-in boards for chips. total cost of the project is about half a million $ ... I don't have to muck about with prototypes. Model it out in Rhino , imprt in altium and export to the board house. for the connectors i grab the modesl from 3dcontentcentral or i go to molex ,amp or tyco website. they provide the step models for free.

Whoa!

If life didn't have different plans for me I was heading your way of expertise - I really like to read how people achieved the goals I had in mind 20 years ago!
The fact that you share hard experienced work this way to anybody makes me want to exclaim loudly: KUDOS to you Sir!

Quote from: johndoe1395 on April 16, 2012, 08:54:15 pm

By the way I found this topic through google and I joined the forum because of this post.

+1

Really like the constructive dialogues and found them really educating!
Whatever happened to the OP, I only wonder...

Gandalf_Sr · « **Reply #44 on:** August 12, 2014, 11:17:57 am »

I know this is an old thread but, I tried to use Altium in 2012 on a Windows 7 64 bit PC with TONS of RAM; it crashed all the time - several times a day, I lost work, it didn't support buses as objects that contained nets - just graphics to pretend they were there. I tried to contact Altium to see if an in-version update would fix the issues but they told me that the license I was using was not up to date on support (despite my employer having paid $10,000 to Altium) and they wanted $2,500 for 1 year's support just so I could see if the in-version update would fix my problems.

Long story short; $795 later I had an unlimited version of Diptrace and I've been using it ever since. Diptrace never crashes, it supports buses intelligently - when you drag a net to a bus, it offers a list of all the nets already on the bus and gives you the option to create a new net. It now has excellent 3D modeling capability, 3D preview with export to step file, an awesome footprint creator - how awesome you ask? A 325 pin 0.5 pitch FPGA footprint in 5 minutes.

As Dave says (I agree), 95% of users either aren't interested in or don't trust the built in compilers. So why then why does annual maintenance of Altium cost more than double an unlimited version of Diptrace which also gives you free in-version upgrades?

Altium should be kissing its devoted users when it's doing what it's doing to them.

DerekG · « **Reply #45 on:** August 12, 2014, 12:31:11 pm »

Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on August 12, 2014, 11:17:57 am

I tried to use Altium in 2012 on a Windows 7 64 bit PC with TONS of RAM; it crashed all the time - several times a day, I lost work, it didn't support buses as objects that contained nets - just graphics to pretend they were there.

I actually believe this was a problem with an incompatible video card. I'm assuming you were using an Intel processor as Altium does not support/does no testing of AMD chips?

Quote

Long story short; $795 later I had an unlimited version of Diptrace and I've been using it ever since. Diptrace never crashes, it supports buses intelligently - when you drag a net to a bus, it offers a list of all the nets already on the bus and gives you the option to create a new net. It now has excellent 3D modeling capability, 3D preview with export to step file, an awesome footprint creator - how awesome you ask? A 325 pin 0.5 pitch FPGA footprint in 5 minutes.

Yes, I'm using DipTrace more & more too. Going from a schematic to a PCB is much faster. The last upgrade a month or so ago was a BIG improvement - a giant leap actually.

Quote

So why then why does annual maintenance of Altium cost more than double an unlimited version of Diptrace which also gives you free in-version upgrades?

Altium has many public shareholders that demand a return. They also have too many directors that demand high wages/high directors fees.

DipTrace is a private company that operates out of the low cost country of Ukraine (where coincidentally some of Altium's programmers are also based).

Quote

Altium should be kissing its devoted users when it's doing what it's doing to them.

My experience is that Altium does not give a sh*t. If you read back through my posts you will see that I often say "I dislike Altium the software & dislike even more Altium the company".

Anyway, glad that there is someone else out there that has also seen the light (in using DipTrace).

Gandalf_Sr · « **Reply #46 on:** August 12, 2014, 04:11:43 pm »

Derek,

Yes, the last upgrade was really good. Library redone and the ability to create step files from the 3D viewer, now I can give my board designs to our CAD engineers and see what it looks like in the housing.

I LOL'd when I read your tag line although I have seen a UFO.

marshallh · « **Reply #47 on:** August 12, 2014, 11:52:55 pm »

I'm using Altium for 2 years with AMD and ATI (phenom II x4) with 16gb ram under Windows 7 x64 and rarely ever have crashes. They do happen, but maybe once every couple weeks.

DerekG · « **Reply #48 on:** August 13, 2014, 12:07:30 am »

Quote from: marshallh on August 12, 2014, 11:52:55 pm

I'm using Altium for 2 years with AMD and ATI (phenom II x4) with 16gb ram under Windows 7 x64 and rarely ever have crashes. They do happen, but maybe once every couple weeks.

I use Altium on an Intel i5 2.5GHz with 4GB RAM using Windows 7 Professional 32 bit (so only 3GB RAM is accessible).

I can't say that I remember it crashing once in the past 6 or so years.

I mention AMD as Altium is quite specific - they do lots of testing with Intel processors but no testing with AMD & so do not recommend any processors except Intel.

I believe most reported crashes are due to conflicts occurring due to the video card being used.

I would call a crash "once very couple weeks" to be pretty regular.

zapta · « **Reply #49 on:** August 13, 2014, 12:32:56 am »

Quote from: chimera_786 on April 02, 2012, 09:50:22 am

I did see these videos on youtube. I guess I have no alternative but to learn it..gotta present it in two weeks time.

Tell him your dog ate the Altium CD.


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Author Topic: Altium- I am about to cry!! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( (Read 96175 times)

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