Free Altium is Coming

[Rigby]

Probably easier and more cost effective to just buy the extra area.

[zapta]

Probably easier and more cost effective to just buy the extra area.

Releasing open source design files that require paid software to use it reduces the openness of the design.   I have an Eagle license but subject myself to the free limitations for that reason. Rufus's idea will keep the design open but since in Altium model they control everything they can ban those libraries or even users. That's the problem with cloud only model with no data liberation, you heavily depend on the vendor.

[Rigby]

Understood.

My time is valuable enough to me that I don't screw around with KiCad.  Too much time lost fighting that interface and those weird quirks.

When it makes sense, I'll just pay to increase the available board size.  It would certainly be against the terms of use to hack around the size limitations, and that's just wasted time, anyway, since the ability to do so could be removed at a whim.

If one is that keen on open source, to use open source at any cost, why would that person even bother to comment on this software?  Why would it even appear on that person's radar?  I'm not talking about you personally.

[zapta]

If one is that keen on open source, to use open source at any cost, why would that person even bother to comment on this software?  Why would it even appear on that person's radar?  I'm not talking about you personally.

I was referring to open source designs, not tools. Free eagle fits the bill well.

[Precipice]

Releasing open source design files that require paid software to use it reduces the openness of the design. 

This is true - but stuff I don't release because the open tools are too annoying / slow, stays even more closed.

gcc and the other open software tools have done an enormous amount of good - but so has the source level portability of (most) software. I think we're still at least a decade out, for hardware. Maybe VHDL with the analogue extensions will get good? I dunno. Maybe schematics just aren't the way of the future, long-term?

[janoc]

KiCAD on the other hand seems to have been taken over by CERN and people can't build it properly for numerous reasons, and it is not being "actively" developed as such from what I can see, as it's open source it's community developed and unlimited.

I am not sure what your criteria for "actively developed" are, but I see commits from a few hours ago in the KICAD repository:
https://code.launchpad.net/kicad

That would certainly qualify as "actively developed" in my book.

Re compiling - get a stable version and stick with it. You won't have all the latest (and most broken) features, but it works just fine. If someone attempts to build an unstable version, especially for Windows, without knowing what they are doing, it won't end well. However, that's hardly KICAD's fault.

CERN certainly didn't "take over" KICAD - they have a few people contributing to it because it is what they use in-house, but certainly aren't the ones driving the development if I am not mistaken. I believe that the size of the "team" was only one or two people at the CERN side at one point, right now they have 4 people listed in the code repository. Anyway, CERN did contribute things like push-and-shove routing, for example. I don't think that there is another low cost/free package that has that sort of feature.

I do wonder why there is so much FUD and weird misinformation flying around about KICAD. It certainly isn't the greatest tool under the Sun, but why someone feels the need to take swipes at it?

[Bassman59]

Thinking about it, can we really compare DT, Eagle and now CM alongside KiCAD?
I mean, we can compare it in terms of features or lack thereof whatever your views. but Eagle / DT and CM (when it arrives) are actively developed, KiCAD on the other hand seems to have been taken over by CERN and people can't build it properly for numerous reasons, and it is not being "actively" developed as such from what I can see, as it's open source it's community developed and unlimited.

Kicad is indeed under active development. There are commits to the bzr repository every day. The developer mailing list is very busy.

I use OS X 10.9. I pull the source from the trunk every couple of days or so and build it. It builds successfully, even with the very recent Xcode 6.

Just my perspective.

[DerekG]

I am not 100% sure if DT is native or emulated (WINE et al).

The developers of DipTrace have announced that the next release will support Linux natively (it currently runs under WINE).

I also wonder if it will be able to import libraries and/or designs from other packages (such as Eagle).

I believe Dave has already announced that import filters are thin on the ground & export filters non-existent. Presumably there will be a way to export to natively supported Altium formats before too long.

oh, yea diptrace, I think i made a mistake there

Why did you cross out "autorouting"?

I've used it quite a number of times & it works pretty well. I don't see that it is much worse than Altium's autorouter.

However, I often export the schematic file in Electra format & use "Freerouting" to complete more complex tasks. This works very well (or of course you can use the Electra autorouter which I believe does a better job than the standard Altium autorouter).

I note that "Freerouting" is no longer publically available after Zuken threatened to sue them due to alleged code infringement.

This could well be true as the provider used to work for Zuken & the product works so well it probably did have the clout of someone large (like Zuken) behind it.

You can read more on this here:

http://www.freerouting.net/fen/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=272

[timb]

Interesting and awesome to see RMS himself posting in that Freerouting thread. It changes my opinion of him. (Just slightly though. Like 1%.)


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[EEVblog]

Board size limits are dumb.

Not when it costs <$50 to get more. App upgrade model of Circuit Maker is it's killer feature.

[tautech]

Board size limits are dumb.

Not when it costs <$50 to get more. App upgrade model of Circuit Maker is it's killer feature.

More cats out of the bag. 

[AlfBaz]

Curious, are you buying or renting the extra features or can you do both?

[Wilksey]

janoc, Bassman59,

First of all, apologies, I should have clarified that the last "stable" release on the KiCAD download website is an older version.
CERN seems to be contributing most of the newer features such as push and shove I believe?

To clarify, I use KiCAD and I do like it, I am not having a go at it, I can build it fine all the time every time as I have the compiler and libraries set up correctly.

From the perspective of going into a website (such as DT, Eagle) and downloading the "latest" binary, KiCAD is not actively compiled, maybe that would be a better term or phrase.  There may be very good reason for it not to be, but I remember back along when I saw some videos of KiCAD with some newer features and I couldn't for the life of me find the "download" for it, I thought it was someone's own personal version they had modified for themselves, until i found a link to a CERN branch and compiled that.

I must admit I haven't downloaded from the BZR for a while, so things might have changed / merged or whatever, but from a pure downloader's perspective it is not actively *compiled*.

I guess when Altium comes out with 5 or 6 new "sub versions" a year it makes other software look like it's not being updated, but it makes me think other software has less bugs!

[IanJ]

Board size limits are dumb.

Not when it costs <$50 to get more. App upgrade model of Circuit Maker is it's killer feature.

I agree.........I designed 80% of my boards for fun, 20% for financial gain, and I will have no problem in App Upgrading to unlock features I see fit to use, even if they fit in the 80% category. Whether I switch them off afterwards though will depend on how easy it is to do so, maybe Altium will use the "easy to upgrade, hard to downgrade" model..........

Ian.

[george graves]

Finally.....A video from makerfaire......

"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"

[sakujo7]

"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"

Nooooooooope. I for one would like to keep at least the first few revisions private so I can fix everything I screwed up before someone else can see it.

[philpem]

Since Altium/CircuitMaker will have 10x10cm limit, wonder how long it will take Eagle to change from that strange 8x10cm limit..

It's actually quite logical.

8x10cm is a half-Eurocard. 160x100 is a full Eurocard, and if that's not big enough there are bigger variants too (if memory serves, 160x233.5 is a "double" Eurocard, as used on early Acorn machines for the "double" Podules).

More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocard_(printed_circuit_board)

(The more you know!^TM)

[Wilksey]

as used on early Acorn machines for the "double" Podules).

Now there's a word you don't see everyday "Podules".  Good old Acorn!

Only sold my A5000 a few years ago it still worked like new just had no room for it!
Still got a RISC PC somewhere.

[neslekkim]

ah, that's interresting!, I didn't know that, was just thinking about the strange size compared to the limits that Seeedstudio and those have.

[DerekG]

The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online

Ahh, I spoke with a US colleague a few minutes ago & he was told at the CircuitMaker stand that you will be able to keep your design private "for a fee".

They were coy about how much this fee would be but did confirm that the fee would be a recurring fee to continue to keep your design private. You could also choose to let your design "go public" or choose to delete the file if it was no longer required.

[daqq]

"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"

It'll be good to learn Altium, but aside from that, nope.

[timb]

"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"

Nooooooooope. I for one would like to keep at least the first few revisions private so I can fix everything I screwed up before someone else can see it.

This is exactly how Upverter works and it's not a big deal. In fact, it can be pretty nice WRT community collaboration and design reviews.


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[DerekG]

Ahh, I spoke with a US colleague a few minutes ago & he was told at the CircuitMaker stand that you will be able to keep your design private "for a fee".

On a longer conversation with my colleague, he understood the operation of your files to be similar to Dropbox. You get access to a Public Box to store your files for free (where everyone else who is signed in can also view them), or you can store them in a private box for which you pay a fee.

[mikeselectricstuff]

"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"

Nooooooooope. I for one would like to keep at least the first few revisions private so I can fix everything I screwed up before someone else can see it.

This is exactly how Upverter works and it's not a big deal. In fact, it can be pretty nice WRT community collaboration and design reviews.

but will you get bombarded by trolls commenting on your not-yet-finished design...?

[timb]

"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"

Nooooooooope. I for one would like to keep at least the first few revisions private so I can fix everything I screwed up before someone else can see it.

This is exactly how Upverter works and it's not a big deal. In fact, it can be pretty nice WRT community collaboration and design reviews.

but will you get bombarded by trolls commenting on your not-yet-finished design...?

I never had that problem on Upverter. Anyone could see the design at any time or even watch me work in real time. In addition to leaving a comment on the design's page. They also have a separate mechanism where you can put a design up for review or even ask for help with a specific issue, this enables people to add markup to it.

It seemed to work very well when I used it regularly late last year.

That said, Upverter is a web app. CircuitFaker is a desktop app. I expect local saving with the option of cloud saves and nothing less.

To drive home this point, if I get in the beta, I will go around and start turning people's board outlines into swastikas and tastefully drawing penises on schematics.

(So yes, I will be that troll.)


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