Author Topic: Is Altium total crap or what?  (Read 6037 times)

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Offline Veteran68

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2023, 08:54:12 pm »
Luckily, being a US citizen, I use customary units, not imperial.
Constantly raising this distinction feels like you're being pedantic to me.

Imperial and US customary are largely the same. Where they differ is primarily in volume units and a few lengths and weights that are virtually never used in most scientific and engineering circles. Things like "imperial gallon/quart/pint vs US gallon/quart/pint" and "stone" as a unit of weight and the now archaic "survey mile."

When it comes down to the measurements that most of us in this forum are interested in, there's little to no difference between the two. And metric is superior to either for our purposes.
 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2023, 10:14:05 pm »
Not going to contradict, but rather to offer my condolences by way of explanation:

Such is many things in life, often decisions made for historic reasons, perhaps they were right at the time, but passed down through the ages, we have to deal with their consequences.

In this case, probably way back in the Protel days, fixed-point integer coordinates (or god forbid, BCD?) were used, and fractional-mil accuracy was wildly more than sufficient.

The file format hasn't changed much over the years, I mean... it has, greatly, but largely by way of expansion, keeping old elements and formats that continued to work, and adding features on top of that.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  If fixed-point arithmetic worked for two decades, surely it'll work for three?

So, there are rounding errors, yeah.

And also a limit on the maximum size of a design sheet.  Which I think has been upped in recent years?  But to be fair, as just outright dumb as it is to have such an arbitrary limit on what ought to be position-independent* vector graphics -- it is pretty goddamn hard to find someone who can fab a ten-foot PCB at all.

I don't know if AD uses floats internally, but sooner or later it has to get into either the in-memory objects, or the on-disk file, as whatever rounding format they use.

*But, on that note... to be perfectly fair, integers are position-independent.  Floats are the ugly ducks here.  At 32 bits, you might not mind anyway (rounding error starts to become annoying (~µin) at distances from the origin of, what -- several meters?), but to be perfectly precise: floats are the number system which violates arithmetic rules, not integers!**

**When overflow is avoided.  To be perfectly perfectly precise, fixed-size "integers" are modular numbers.  It's a shame few programming languages treat them this way, because it's so powerful, and fundamental (to the CPU), to do so.  But, alas.

So, your frustrations can be explained as misinterpretation: what you thought should be plain old numbers, is actually a rounded, integer (or modular..) system.

Not that explaining a frustration with an internal failing, or highlighting ones' ignorance, is exactly helpful, I know.  But, again, my condolences by way of explanation -- we all share these frustrations, and it's up to ourselves how we react to them.  Your response to these frustrations is perfectly valid.  Correct, even.

I will say, in situations like these -- the frustration exists, regardless of whether we like it or not.  Whether it causes us to lash out or whatever -- that is however a decision we still have control over.

Anyway, as for ways to deal with it -- unsatisfying I know, but setting clearances to slightly off your desired limit, and snapping objects to grid otherwise (yes, tedious I know*), gives some wiggle room for rounding errors.

I've noticed multi-routing tends to leave weird corners, like, sometimes I grab one trace in a bus and the whole rest of the bus suddenly pops out with an extra corner going *eeuurt* around some imagined blemish.  Or, sometimes I grab a trace and the route magically doubles underneath my cursor, and I'm only dragging one of the two pieces thus duplicated??  There's some weird internal state confusion at times, and sometimes it's worth getting a rough route in place, then replacing each trace with singly routed traces (P, T) just to clear those dubious traces out of the design.

And, after a couple hours of shoving components and traces, and placing and deleting and replacing objects, the overall internal state starts to decay and you start to get
Information
popups.  Time to reboot it.  Well, that just happens, unfortunately; whatever it is, it's in my experience most often some kind of confusion of pointers, maybe a use-after-free, who knows, but it seems it's rare enough they've never been able to fix it.  It can take hours or days of continuous operation before it shows up, or maybe mere minutes if you're particularly skilled at mis-operating your software, so to speak.  Well, like I said -- standard frustrations, alas.  It is what it is.

*Personally, I like the tedium of shoving traces.  I would argue it gives me time to reflect on the design overall, and maybe I'll think of some other place to place and route things, and arrive at a better design later.  Rip-up and re-route is always faster than the first time you do it, or, well, it is for me at least; it's not that that initial effort was wasted, it's still contributing to the finished design, even if merely by way of ruling out only one very specific configuration.

Tim
« Last Edit: July 13, 2023, 10:17:19 pm by T3sl4co1l »
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Online TimFox

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2023, 10:25:13 pm »
Luckily, being a US citizen, I use customary units, not imperial.
Constantly raising this distinction feels like you're being pedantic to me.

Imperial and US customary are largely the same. Where they differ is primarily in volume units and a few lengths and weights that are virtually never used in most scientific and engineering circles. Things like "imperial gallon/quart/pint vs US gallon/quart/pint" and "stone" as a unit of weight and the now archaic "survey mile."

When it comes down to the measurements that most of us in this forum are interested in, there's little to no difference between the two. And metric is superior to either for our purposes.

Metric is good, and is internationally accepted in a consistent manner.
The historical inch-based measurements are not internationally consistent, and I will continue to make the distinction between US customary and UK imperial.
One large difference is the (obsolete) imperial gallon = 4.54609 liters (used for gasoline in Canada before metrication) and the US gallon = 3.78541 liters (still in use in the US), a ratio of approximately 1.2:1.  A few centuries ago, there were different legal definitions for different liquids, and the US and UK simplified to different versions for liquid measure.
(Prior to 1959, there was a small difference between the US inch and the British inch:  the older US definition was 1 meter = 39.37 inch, the present definition is 1 inch = 2.54 cm, both exact conversions.)
The "US Survey Foot", now being deprecated, uses the previous definition and is common in land-tenure documents:  I am waiting for a new version of the deed to my modest house.
 

Offline Lyndsay_Doyle

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2023, 07:29:21 am »
I am in the UK and grew upusing imperial units.
Slowly over time we all moved across to metric. (Except MPH instead of KPH)
We have a customer in the US who insists on using imperial.
The youngsters here convert their metric measurements to Imperial.
There is nothing wrong with the conversion, but I often ask them how the inspectors are to measure 0.396"
They are now coming around to putting 0.4" instead. Please dont ask me why we dont put 1/32 etc....
 

Offline asmi

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2023, 02:24:09 pm »
There was an old convention (especially in the tube days) for non-polarized capacitors that values > 1 were in pF, values < 1 were in uF.  Polarized capacitor values were in uF.
All of the above unless otherwise specified.
This was before nF were popular.
I also remember seeing a convention (also rather old) which did not have any units for caps at all, and used integer numbers to indicate pF, while uF were always shown with a single decimal digit, so 100 pF would be just "100", but 100 uF would be "100.0".

Online ahbushnell

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2023, 03:14:55 pm »
I am in the UK and grew upusing imperial units.
Slowly over time we all moved across to metric. (Except MPH instead of KPH)
We have a customer in the US who insists on using imperial.
The youngsters here convert their metric measurements to Imperial.
There is nothing wrong with the conversion, but I often ask them how the inspectors are to measure 0.396"
They are now coming around to putting 0.4" instead. Please dont ask me why we dont put 1/32 etc....
I prefer metric but use both here in the US.  And I can see why you might want to use .4 instead of .396".  This assumes there is not a tolerance issue. 

But what is the problem with measuring .396"??? 

Thanks
Andy
 

Online TimFox

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2023, 03:57:03 pm »
Misunderstanding tolerance in units conversion is not limited to metric/customary/imperial physical units.
I remember a US newspaper headline about a bank robbery in the UK:  "$2,400,000 stolen in bank heist".
The British police had, in fact, estimated the robbery as about a million pounds.
My favorite recent example was a discussion about climate change, referring to an increase of 2 Co, which the editor had run through his app to equal 35.6 Fo, a rather lethal amount.
 

Offline ajawamnet

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2023, 11:10:50 pm »
I've been kicked off the official Altium forum before...

Been owner/user since the mid 90's when it was Protel.  Before that an ORCAD and PADs user.  So I have my grievances with them.  Currently in 23.5 and 23.6 they broke the ability to control and display status of file-based library searches. still works in 23.4.  In the past I had to fight to get them to fix it post 17... they fix, then they break it. 


As to it being endemic - There's a video that talks about what happened to a very famous audio software suite that's the "standard" in pro audio "Protools"  - and how it sucks.

In this section - -   at 16:41  [NOTE - why does this forum not respect the "current time" URL?]  - note where he talks about how Reaper (the competitor of Protools) has control over the source code, but how Avid/Protools fired all their developers and it's now a "revolving door" of people that have NO CLUE how any of it works and therefor just glom more code on to try and fix bugs without actually understanding the underlying architectural reasons it was written in the first place. 

But this is typical with the current lot of "man-bun, java jockey, pitiful python pirates" they call coders today.  Script kiddies that mom said STEM was better to go into  than something like archeology.  People doing stuff for the wrong reasons.

Now as to Reaper - look at what the founder - Justin - of Reaper states in this interview as to WHY he wrote it: 


at 3:50 Where Justin states:
"when I left [AOL after they bought Winamp], I came away from it wanting to avoid that in the future; wanting to just make things for the sake of making them .. and not have to constantly justify everything with business decisions/motivations. The ability to just make software for the purpose of making it... for the end goal of making something that's really powerful and enjoyable to use"


I do note that I tried a simple PCB with 10 mil trace on a 10 mil grid and it seems to place it correctly.  I did notice that in the more recent (post 17) releases there's a snap call "Axes" that can cause it to snap to random stuff, throwing things off grid. That and the silly metric rounding thing sucks...
« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 11:13:46 pm by ajawamnet »
 
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Offline TSRTopic starter

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2023, 09:33:41 am »
That's a good answer, and yea it's a rounding error very likely due to some floating point issue.

That said, you and I, and most everyone here, could come up with a solution in a matter of hours. Say, off the top of my head, when routing pin the center of the trace either to an (exact) grid point or the largest integer fraction (smallest possible denominator) of a grid point - and I'm sure there a much better and more elegant solutions that would take a day at most to code.

So that's not the problem.

The problem is that no one at Altium gives a damn about this - and that's on top of a long, long list of things that company doesn't give a damn about.

But look at their website and the little pricks go out of their way to tell you how concerned they are about the customer. Total crap.
 

Offline ajb

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2023, 05:27:56 pm »
That said, you and I, and most everyone here, could come up with a solution in a matter of hours.

That's a very easy thing to say....

Do you really care if all of the tracks are on the grid, though?  Do you care about them being on the grid *more* than you care about them being at exact spacings from each other?  Because you can only have both if you only ever do 90° routing, and only ever use widths/spacings that are nice multiples of the grid.  As soon as you have 45° tracks you have √2 multiples of your width/spacing involved, or corresponding multiples for other angles.  Similarly if you want to route a 45° track next to a round pad.  So take your pick between ugly/irrational grid positions, or ugly/irrational  spacings.  Grid alignment has no bearing on electrical performance or fabricability of the finished design, the only benefit is nice round numbers for the humans.  Personal preference, but I would rather have consistent spacing and dead-on alignment of tracks to pads (at least down to whatever level of resolution) than nice round numbers in the X/Y coordinates. 

Once the design rules are set, Altium's walkaround/hug routing and track alignment features should allow that, but as Tim says:

I've noticed multi-routing tends to leave weird corners, like, sometimes I grab one trace in a bus and the whole rest of the bus suddenly pops out with an extra corner going *eeuurt* around some imagined blemish.  Or, sometimes I grab a trace and the route magically doubles underneath my cursor, and I'm only dragging one of the two pieces thus duplicated??  There's some weird internal state confusion at times, and sometimes it's worth getting a rough route in place, then replacing each trace with singly routed traces (P, T) just to clear those dubious traces out of the design.

This happens all of the place IME, not just with multi-routing.  Corners are a big problem.  When routing a track parallel to an existing track at the minimum spacing, often the new track will refuse to continue past a corner in the neighboring track, or will jump around it.  I suspect there's a problem with rounding in the trig used to calculate clearances around curved corners/ends of tracks.  Those sorts of things, as well as significant issues with snapping/alignment, and track glossing, and interactive routing in general, are way bigger deals to me than tracks being off grid by a millionth of an inch.  That absurdly small rounding error won't keep me from getting work done, the PCB will get fabbed and work perfectly fine either way.  But those other things DO keep me from getting work done, and are bad for my blood pressure too.  They're also incredibly hard to get right, especially when bolted on to a mature application, like the axis snapping feature, instead of built in early on.  There's an inverse relationship between how easy software is to use, in terms of user effort for a given level of result, and how easy it is to write.  Writing software to do what Altium does efficiently, intuitively, and with reliably good results, is not at all simple. 

That doesn't mean the current state of it is acceptable, of course, and I make no excuses for it, but it's pretty absurd to claim that you could come up with a better solution in a few hours when you consider how many factors are involved.   


Quote
*Personally, I like the tedium of shoving traces.  I would argue it gives me time to reflect on the design overall, and maybe I'll think of some other place to place and route things, and arrive at a better design later.  Rip-up and re-route is always faster than the first time you do it, or, well, it is for me at least; it's not that that initial effort was wasted, it's still contributing to the finished design, even if merely by way of ruling out only one very specific configuration.
I really enjoy optimizing layouts as well.  That's part of the reason Altium's routing problems are really infuriating to me--but the silver lining is those frustrations make it easier to walk away from a perfectly adequate layout instead of spending another three days tweaking it to my own aesthetic satisfaction  :phew:
 
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Offline nigelwright7557

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2023, 10:10:59 pm »
I made a big mistake in my PCBCAD package in the pcb footprints.
The design wizard allowed input of pitch between pads both vertical and horizontal.
However this isnt always exact and offsets can multiply by the time you have say 40 pads in a line.
I got a pcb back that was out by a pad !
Instead of stepping so many mm converted from thou I multiplied the thou by the steps and this kept the accuracy much better.

As for crap software, sometimes programmers dont always understand well what they are writing software for.
I am a electronics engineer as well as a programmer so understand programmer and user side of PCBCAD well.

A good tool I have is a "swap autoplacer" which swaps around components to find shortest net.
With that I have routed a couple of pcb's that otherwise wouldn't go.
 

Offline Feynman

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2023, 10:23:02 am »
As for crap software, sometimes programmers dont always understand well what they are writing software for.
I am a electronics engineer as well as a programmer so understand programmer and user side of PCBCAD well.
Yeah, that's a fundamental issue in software development. A great software developer is primarily a domain-expert and only secondarily an expert in C++ or whatever. Unfortunately many software developers have little to none domain-knowledge, which results in crappy software.
 

Offline asmi

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2023, 02:46:52 pm »
Yeah, that's a fundamental issue in software development. A great software developer is primarily a domain-expert and only secondarily an expert in C++ or whatever. Unfortunately many software developers have little to none domain-knowledge, which results in crappy software.
No, developer needs to be an expert in programming first and foremost. Domain knowledge is useful, but not essential because "translating" biz requirements to the language which developers understand is a job of business analysts, as most good developers don't work in the same place for very long. Over my 20+ years of software development career I worked in all kinds of industries from e-commerce and games to industrial automation and embedded devices, so being an expert in each and every one of those is completely unrealistic.
Crappy software is a failure of entire team, including biz analysts, QA folks and management, and not just developers' fault.

Offline asmi

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2023, 02:48:29 pm »
BTW if you want to feel real frustration - try routing differential pairs using rounded corners in AD. THAT is a real pain!  :box:

Offline Lyndsay_Doyle

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2023, 09:13:46 am »
I'm just wondering if we were to bill Altium for lost time, and inability to deliver product because we have to wait for a fix or a reply to a support call because Altium does something stupid, I think it would bankrupt them.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2023, 09:28:32 am »
I mean, to be fair: how long do you think *any* company would last, with such a liability in the license?

Tim
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Offline corey

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2023, 12:21:08 pm »
My 2c on this continues on the nice counter-tangent the conversation has taken in metric vs imperial, in Altium.

I wish they would just use a single unit (metric) for the schematic editor grid. Being an Aussie, of course I work in mm on the PCB editor, but so many _schematic_ models from anywhere (snapeda, ultralibrarian etc) are aligned to the imperial grid. It’s a seriously bad design choice to have both in virtual editor like the schematic capture editor where units don’t matter. The amount of time I’ve spent fudging around to get component pins onto the grid…

I recently had a problem where Altium was giving me a Git error whenever I tried to open or save a project from my work’s workspace, and I couldn’t do any work. So I logged a ticket and the Altium guy helping me couldn’t figure out the problem, after way over an hour on a video call sharing my screen. He even got me to install a packet capture software which included https breaking (local signed trusted certificate) so they could analyse the traffic. I haven’t sent it to them but instead I just went and created another profile on my PC and it works fine. I’ve had to transfer my config and so on which has taken a while, not to mention documents, Firefox tabs, etc. It was a quicker solution than dealing with Altium tech support (which you pay through the nose for). Frustrating when software features actually cause major downtime when I’m very busy with tight time constraints. It is one of the reasons I hate anything “cloud”; local projects on my hard drive just work, always. But the workspace feature is pretty good for working in hardware design teams like I do.

It’s a buggy bit of software, no doubt. Considering it’s not new and up to version 23.10 now, they have no excuses.

But I’ve recently been learning and using Vivaldi and Vitis. Now _they_ are badly designed with the most confusing and unintuitive UI’s. Such a steep learning curve.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2023, 08:51:15 pm »
Imperial grid in schematic isn't unique to Altium - it's been the default for both grids since forever when doing PCBs with anything. Metric is a relatively recent thing for the layout, and if you're doing through hole then imperial is still the better one to use. Personally, I use metric for the mechanical bits (when things like connectors and controls got, board dimensions, etc) but imperial for through-hole and larger SMT stuff. In the schematic I just don't take any notice of what the grid measure is, only that it's the same as what the schematic library symbols use.

And as for PCB library parts... often I will use some weirdo fractional grid because that helps align things. In those cases, being metric or imperial only affects how many decimal places there will be.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Is Altium total crap or what?
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2023, 10:35:50 pm »
In general I'd say stick to the imperial grid in schematics if that is the default setting of the package as 99.9% of the symbols will be imperial. In the end it doesn't really matter anyway. Trying to use metric grid is entering a world of pain. Even going from Letter to A4 can cause weird effects (not specific for Altium, but in general for schematics packages).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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