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There is plenty of evidence in the form of who doesn't and won't use them, and why.
So… anecdotes, not data.You have (again) missed a key point, even though you mention a allied point that doesn't affect your contention. Arguably more important than the limitations of the tools is the limitations of the tools' user!
Yes, and that’s part of the learning process, a process you invariably ignore. You just expect everyone to be experienced from the get-go.
No matter how good/bad a tool, it is likely to be poorly and/or inappropriately used by a beginner.
Nobody has ever suggested that a breadboard is the right tool to test out a USB-C circuit or a microwave radio circuit. But it just boggles the mind that you can’t wrap your head around the idea that beginners use breadboards to quickly lash up simple circuits, starting with things like LEDs and 555 timers, then op amps and such, and then maybe some logic ICs or a simple MCU. Nothing complex, nothing particularly demanding. For quickly experimenting, it’s a great solution that allows for quick learning by doing. It’s decidedly better than what a lot of absolute beginners do when they don’t have breadboards, namely to use alligator clips or twist wires together and “secure” it with masking tape. -
What I really like with some breadboards sold(which I think are indispensable!) is that some have the breadboards mounted on an aluminum baseplate. This allows me to drill holes and mount voltage regulators, toggle switches, and even power-switching MOSFETs so directly close to the circuit and with heatsinking when needed.
The metal base also functions as place to drill holes to bind large cables, mount small motors, and very importantly, the metal baseplate gives shielding to sensitive circuits. -
Contrary to some elitist posters on this subject, I have been able to successively breadboard RF circuitry, Xmit and Receive in the 100's of MHZ as well as sensitive microvolt-level amplifiers, complex multi-logic MCU circuits and even high-current power supplies, USB circuits, etc.
All it takes is a little ingenuity, and sometimes maybe a flying groundplane mounted on the edges of the board, sometimes stuff like micro-coax pt to pt, making PCB modules that become breadboard insertables, etc.
Its a poor craftsman that {hates},{blames} the likely best tool ever devised for prototype development or experimentation. -
Contrary to some elitist posters on this subject, I have been able to successively breadboard RF circuitry, Xmit and Receive in the 100's of MHZ as well as sensitive microvolt-level amplifiers, complex multi-logic MCU circuits and even high-current power supplies, USB circuits, etc.
All it takes is a little ingenuity, and sometimes maybe a flying groundplane mounted on the edges of the board, sometimes stuff like micro-coax pt to pt, making PCB modules that become breadboard insertables, etc.
Its a poor craftsman that {hates},{blames} one's likely best tools.
I have breadboarded many such things over more decades than I care to admit - and they often worked reliably first time. But not on solderless breadboards. The alternative techniques (including but not limited to Manhattan) are cheap, easy and reliable, so why use an inferior technique?
There's no doubt an experienced person will have enough skill and knowledge to work out whether a bug is in their circuit or the solderless construction(if they ever used it).
But if you know enough to fabricate a flying ground plane, clearly you are not a beginner! -
But it just boggles the mind that you can’t wrap your head around the idea that beginners use breadboards to quickly lash up simple circuits, starting with things like LEDs and 555 timers, then op amps and such, and then maybe some logic ICs or a simple MCU. Nothing complex, nothing particularly demanding. For quickly experimenting, it’s a great solution that allows for quick learning by doing.
The other major advantage, especially for the beginner who doesn't have a whole horde of parts and components, is it allows easy experimentation using the same components over and over again until they go into a permanent project. The idea of using things like ICs over and over again by soldering and desoldering them, especially for a beginner seems like lunacy.
Being able to unplug a few chips and re-use them multiple times without getting solder on the pins or frying them from excessive solder heat seems like a good idea. It certainly always has been for me1
As for being annoying to transfer to a more permanent form after building a working prototype on a breadboard, I've actually always found it very easy to transfer a working breadboard design onto inexpensive proto-boards that use the same type of layout, like these:
I've used hundreds of those things and like to keep about a dozen on hand at any time for many different kinds of projects and one-offs. A beginner can relatively easily build something up on breadboard, then once your circuit works properly, you can basically just copy (when you have extras of simple things like resistors, etc) or transfer it piece by piece to the proto-board and solder it up.
Using sockets for where ICs are on your prototype and then building the wiring around it, soldering in any passives, etc. then popping the chips out of your working breadboard prototype and sticking them into your soldered prototype allows you to go back and forth for experimentation if you wish to modify your design or something, retaining the breadboard version in essentially working form, at least until you have the soldered version working to your satisfaction.
This was extremely useful, especially back in the days of building "large" digital circuits with 7400 or CMOS logic when we didn't all have a zillion extras of every chip, (especially since they often weren't cheap!) so we couldn't just use another one, we had to move the few components we had from the breadboard phase to the soldered prototype / final project.
While the components may be less expensive today, most beginners still don't have a giant parts stash from which to draw endless parts. Being able to easily re-use the same components over and over is a big bonus, especially for the beginner. (Or, at least it certainly was for me! YMMV) -
But it just boggles the mind that you can’t wrap your head around the idea that beginners use breadboards to quickly lash up simple circuits, starting with things like LEDs and 555 timers, then op amps and such, and then maybe some logic ICs or a simple MCU. Nothing complex, nothing particularly demanding. For quickly experimenting, it’s a great solution that allows for quick learning by doing.
The other major advantage, especially for the beginner who doesn't have a whole horde of parts and components, is it allows easy experimentation using the same components over and over again until they go into a permanent project. The idea of using things like ICs over and over again by soldering and desoldering them, especially for a beginner seems like lunacy. Being able to unplug a few chips and re-use them multiple times without getting solder on the pins or frying them from excessive solder heat seems like a good idea. It certainly always has been for me1
Me too; I agree. Where it is beneficial to avoid soldering to IC leads (which are fragile!), I solder a socket and put the IC in that.QuoteAs for being annoying to transfer to a more permanent form after building a working prototype on a breadboard, I've actually always found it very easy to transfer a working breadboard design onto inexpensive proto-boards that use the same type of layout...
If it works, why rebuild it? Faster, better, and simpler to get it working using a reliable technique - then leave it alone and move onto the next thing.
Rebuilding something is soul destroying!QuoteI've used hundreds of those things and like to keep about a dozen on hand at any time for many different kinds of projects and one-offs. A beginner can relatively easily build something up on breadboard,
It is no more difficult to make a soldered rats nest, and soldering is a technique that everybody needs sooner rather than later. So practice soldering when doing Manhattan (or similar) construction.Quotethen once your circuit works properly, you can basically just copy (when you have extras of simple things like resistors, etc) or transfer it piece by piece to the proto-board and solder it up.
Except where it has worked because of excess (and variable) resistance, or inductance, or capacitance.QuoteUsing sockets for where ICs are on your prototype and then building the wiring around it, soldering in any passives, etc. then popping the chips out of your working breadboard prototype and sticking them into your soldered prototype allows you to go back and forth for experimentation if you wish to modify your design or something, retaining the breadboard version in essentially working form, at least until you have the soldered version working to your satisfaction.
This was extremely useful, especially back in the days of building "large" digital circuits with 7400 or CMOS logic when we didn't all have a zillion extras of every chip, (especially since they often weren't cheap!) so we couldn't just use another one, we had to move the few components we had from the breadboard phase to the soldered prototype / final project.
I remember those days, and still have many such ICs.
I also know the edge rates were very slow (10ns was normal), whereas modern jellybean logic is >30 times faster.QuoteWhile the components may be less expensive today, most beginners still don't have a giant parts stash from which to draw endless parts. Being able to easily re-use the same components over and over is a big bonus, especially for the beginner. (Or, at least it certainly was for me! YMMV)
I started by desoldering transistors and other components from circuits boards. I couldn't afford new components, even if they had been easily available. -
While the components may be less expensive today, most beginners still don't have a giant parts stash from which to draw endless parts. Being able to easily re-use the same components over and over is a big bonus, especially for the beginner. (Or, at least it certainly was for me! YMMV)
I started by desoldering transistors and other components from circuits boards. I couldn't afford new components, even if they had been easily available.
That's a tricky one where the balance probably shifts over time. If I couldn't use my parts bin of salvaged / reused / short legged components (axial Tants and Polystyrenes for instance), I'd be forever having to wait for deliveries and agonizing about waiting to hit a free delivery thresholds. I need spontaneity to keep me interested and not organised enough to create BOMs for idea try-outs.
It's probably different for beginners, although salvage is still a very valid way of obtaining expensive-to-buy parts - my days of salvaging resistors is well past (unless they're something special). -
People often feel the same way about IC sockets on production PCB, but yet there are at times good reasons to use sockets. I don't look at breadboards as being good or bad, they just solve one issue that people may have when bringing up some electronics.
Vero boards or other similarly pre etched boards, can also fulfill a role similar to a breadboard. However they have their own issues. What I find frustrating is the lack of solutions for the use of SMD's which really don't have similar route to prototyping.
I will be the first to admit that I have had some really frustrating experiences with breadboards. However I would not dismiss such out of hand. In some cases they are the best way to explore concepts in electronic design or figure out something you don't understand.Learn the art of 'Manhattan' style prototyping as quickly as possible. Not only is a sheet of copperclad cheaper, but the results are far more reliable.
I do that frequently, but it's no substitute for a solderless breadboard. It would be stupid to break out the soldering iron if all I wanted to do was wire up a few components to a microcontroller or something. Unless one has extreme tunnel vision there is no one size fits all approach. If you still insist that breadboards don't work then you either haven't used a good one or haven't used it properly.
Precisely!
Experimenting and building a one-off or a prototype are two different things! Soldering stuff to a copper board is not the same thing as being able to plug in and out random components to rows of sockets, especially if you're working with rows of ICs or something.
Breadboards absolutely have their place and using decent quality ones makes all the difference to the experience. The OP asked about the variable quality of solderless breadboards (of which there is a huge variation), not tangential methods to avoid using shoddy breadboards or advice regarding having bad connection problems or whatnot...
I really didn't mean my reply to turn this into some kind of breadboard - non breadboard holy war! I was just suggesting an alternative technique that the OP is probably not be familiar with. Looking at his posting history it has mostly been solar stuff, some Arduino and a little 'how to solder smd ICs. Can we just leave it at that!
I don't use breadboards myself - well ok, I have a little one that I occasionally plug a module or dip IC into for quick test. It has a variety of insertion pressures depending on which holes I use. Even something like an Arduino Nano takes up a lot of real estate.
My only thoughts on them are:
1. When you get your circuit nicely working, you then have to dismantle it an build it in some other form, hopefully, having a correct schematic first... and of course you have to find a bodge for anything only available in smd [EDIT: or big].
2. All breadboards become unreliable, even the best. It's only a matter of time, purchase price and care of use. Some start off that way, the expensive ones may have a decent life if treated very carefully (lead diameter and contaminants). Ultimately you will start debugging intermittent connections rather than circuits on a hole by hole basis. If you're really lucky you realise that you need to write it off it before that happens. It seems that the OP is already suffering from that.
I guess my relevant advice to the OP in that case is, buy an expensive one, treat it with great care, [and know when to bin it].Hah, now I actually have to analyse it, I do have an opinion on them, I'd never thought about it that deeply. -
The concept is a good one. What I'm tying to get across, with respect to the original posters question, is that there are a lot of really bad breadboards on the market. I don't mean worn out but breadboards that where worthless right out of the box.
Go out an buy a decent one and you will have a much better relationship with that breadboard than a cheap half baked example of a breadboard. In this regard I hope the original poster does so and doesn't end up with a cheap breadboard stuck in the wall or bouncing off the floor.If you still insist that breadboards don't work then you either haven't used a good one or haven't used it properly.
Breadboards are primarily used by beginners. By definition, they don't really understand the circuit they are building and have neither the knowledge nor experience to use them "properly" (whatever that
means[1]). Hence when (not if) something doesn't work, they can't begin to debug their circuit. Frustration abounds and they become disheartened.
OTOH, those with sufficient knowledge and experience usually don't need to go through a "fiddle until it works" process on a breadboard.
[1] my definition of "properly" is "not at all".
Well, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. You don't have a use for breadboards, good for you. I'm glad that your vastly superior knowledge allows you to design circuits that work without any fiddling. For the rest of us there are breadboards and they serve a purpose, they are yet another tool in the toolbox, and the fact that you see no value in them and don't think anyone else should either just sounds very elitist. There are times when I know exactly what I'm doing and jump straight to the prototype stage or even go directly to laying out a PCB but there are a lot of other times when I just want to try something quick, like connect some stuff to a microcontroller and whip up a proof of concept or test out some novel part to see if it will do what I want. There's no point in soldering together a prototype if I'm only going to use it briefly. Like I said, I'm well experienced with Manhattan construction and have used it for years, but that also is another tool in the toolbox, I have multiple tools and choose the one best suited to a particular job. I am not stuck on one specific technique and having used breadboards for over 30 years I've somehow never had any of the problems that apparently make them completely unsuitable in the eyes of some. I don't know why some people are apparently unable to make them work but since they work fine for me that kind of points at something they're doing wrong, not something that is wrong with the concept. -
Vero boards or other similarly pre etched boards, can also fulfill a role similar to a breadboard. However they have their own issues. What I find frustrating is the lack of solutions for the use of SMD's which really don't have similar route to prototyping.
I'm not a great fan of veroboards; they work and are reliable, but the layout always seems to be more painful than I feel it ought to be.
SMD prototyping solutions and techniques exist and work reasonably well. See some examples at the end of https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/ -
I make a small section on my breadboard, solder it, use pin headers, and plug it back in the breadboard to make free space.
This can go on untill the breadboard is full with cards, it makes the bad things go away.
For fast logic it is always bad, like serial information, anything digital accurate with fast timing.
With long wait times, or slow clocks it still works, i dont know whats the frequency where things go unstable, intresting.
*no time to go find out, 31250 Hz for MIDI signals always works fine on a breadboard.
Just dont use regulators on your breadboard, its not safe. -
Hmmm... I don't think that 'anyone' here would suggest that the likes of 'NASA' would be relying on a 'cheap' breadboard, when designing
Life-Critical and multi-billion dollar projects, for ALL the obvious reasons, that one would not need to be a 'rocket-scientist' to understand...
However, for the Average home hobbyist, trialing a few circuits for fun, is a WHOLE new proverbial 'Kettle-Of-Fish' !!!
OK, at least most such 'projects' are relatively simple, and if it doesn't initially work as expected, I would 'assume' that one would first check
their Schematic, component pin-outs, and rails/jumpers used... and failing that, would at least try 'jiggling' a few wires/connections etc, to ensure
that there weren't any suspect joints! All done without loss of life, loss of business, or a heavily deprecated bank account!! It's 'Horses-For-Courses'!!
Does a 'beginner/learner' use Gold Plated connectors, and H.F. shielding etc etc when 'playing' with timers, LED's or 7-segment counter? etc etc...
No. But back in my 'Breadboard' days, I REALLY can't recall many, if any, actual 'board' failures?? Maybe I was 'lucky'. But 'Lives' were not dependent...
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The trick to using fixed voltage three terminal regulators on a breadboard safely, is to attach an extra ground lead directly to the regulator so that the circuit back to the power source is completed through the breadboard to ground lead contact. That way, when the ground contact gets wobbled and momentarily goes open circuit, instead of the output voltage soaring to near Vin and frying your circuit, it drops out with no damage. On LM78xx type regulators in TO-220 packages, that's dead easy as the tab is ground so you can simply bolt the PSU ground wire to it. Also, if its going to dissipate more than a few hundred milliwatts, for %DEITY%'s sake heatsink it so it doesn't melt a hole in your breadboard!
I miss the days of breadboard manufacturers selling spare contact strips so you could maintain them!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/breadboard-maintenance-tips/ -
This highlights why one should take power supplies seriously and not dismiss them. I understand why people want to get onto the "fun" things but not understanding power can really complicate things. A DIY power supply should be a first project for anybody serious about learning electronics.
This is one reason why I always liked bread board stations that incorporated power supplies or at least binding posts. Any approach that makes your power connections more reliable is a good move when working with breadboards. -
The trick to using fixed voltage three terminal regulators on a breadboard safely, is to attach an extra ground lead directly to the regulator so that the circuit back to the power source is completed through the breadboard to ground lead contact. That way, when the ground contact gets wobbled and momentarily goes open circuit, instead of the output voltage soaring to near Vin and frying your circuit, it drops out with no damage. On LM78xx type regulators in TO-220 packages, that's dead easy as the tab is ground so you can simply bolt the PSU ground wire to it. Also, if its going to dissipate more than a few hundred milliwatts, for %DEITY%'s sake heatsink it so it doesn't melt a hole in your breadboard!
I miss the days of breadboard manufacturers selling spare contact strips so you could maintain them!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/breadboard-maintenance-tips/
That kind of consideration also applies to the power supply to individual ICs. If an input voltage is outside the power supply range, "strange" (and sometimes permanent) effects occur.
Given the speed, ease, cheapeness, and learning soldering associated with other methods (especially rats nest and manhattan), are solderless breadboards worth the risk of losing time and a beginner becoming disilusioned? -
I’m sorta of the feeling that any circuit that would work properly on a solderless breadboard is likely a bit boring. Manhattan all the way!
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I’m sorta of the feeling that any circuit that would work properly on a solderless breadboard is likely a bit boring. Manhattan all the way!
I certainly agree with the conclusion (but would add rats nest!), but not for those reasons.
For a beginner, every circuit is interesting, no matter how simple.
Circuits on solderless breadboards can and do work - but not reliably since there are too many invisible subtle failure mechanisms. Beginners have enough difficulty figuring out why their design isn't working; add in intermittent construction faults and they rapidly get lost. -
I’m sorta of the feeling that any circuit that would work properly on a solderless breadboard is likely a bit boring. Manhattan all the way!
I certainly agree with the conclusion (but would add rats nest!), but not for those reasons.
For a beginner, every circuit is interesting, no matter how simple.
Circuits on solderless breadboards can and do work - but not reliably since there are too many invisible subtle failure mechanisms. Beginners have enough difficulty figuring out why their design isn't working; add in intermittent construction faults and they rapidly get lost.
My son and I made a simple 20 LED tracer (knight rider) thing using three HEF4017 ic's and an AND gate ic. It wasn't working for a while and with the breadboard gremlins it took a bit of time to figure out the AND gate ic had failed with it's outputs always high. It was an ic from a box of ic's from when i was about 14, so about 1987 so it's history has been long forgotten and I probably somehow blew it up 30 odd years ago. By the time I had replaced the AND gate ic with four transistors and a few resistors my son had wandered off from boredom, so I think a decent breadboard would be a good investment to make learning more fun.
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Such demoralisation isn't rare in my experience. Using a soldering iron is fun in itself, a useful skill, and is less likely to have problematic connections than solderless breadboards.
CMOS is prone to destructive latchup if an external voltage exceeds the PSU voltage. Perhaps a faulty Vss/Vdd connection allowed that to happen. An old IC probably had dirty pins, which wouldn't have lowered that possibility. -
Come to think of it, I learned on a breadboard. I should drop the elitist attitude
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I had a fair amount of experience with 3M boards in the 80s and don't remember having any major problems with them. I wish I had taken pictures of some of the construction. Pure artwork.
I still experiment using breadboards today. Recently I have been using one to simulate simple distribution networks while I work on the software. In the following data, you can see where this particular setup has a resonance around 70MHz due to the breadboard. While I don't recommend trying to use a breadboard for low noise, high speed designs, for quick experiments you may find them useful. I recommend staying with the name brands.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nanovna-custom-software/msg3558532/#msg3558532 -
I had a fair amount of experience with 3M boards in the 80s and don't remember having any major problems with them. I wish I had taken pictures of some of the construction. Pure artwork.
I still experiment using breadboards today. Recently I have been using one to simulate simple distribution networks while I work on the software. In the following data, you can see where this particular setup has a resonance around 70MHz due to the breadboard. While I don't recommend trying to use a breadboard for low noise, high speed designs, for quick experiments you may find them useful. I recommend staying with the name brands.
With experience and skill, much more is possible (see my .SIG!) Beginners have neither.
A 74LVC1Gxx clocked at 1kHz can drive 50ohm line and it will have significant energy above 1GHz. Beginners don't understand that clock rate is irrelevant; only the transition time matters. -
Given the speed, ease, cheapeness, and learning soldering associated with other methods (especially rats nest and manhattan)
Those methods share none of the speed, ease, and cheapness of a breadboard. If you claim you can solder up an IC faster than you can plug it and some jumpers into a breadboard, you’re lying, plain and simple.are solderless breadboards worth the risk of losing time and a beginner becoming disilusioned?
Yes, emphatically!
As I’ve told you before: you have no clue what a true beginner is, nor the joy that comes from being able to just experiment. Soldering in no way provides that immediacy and desirable impermanence. (There’s a reason Lego is way, way more popular than mecano: tearing down and modifying is super easy. The fragility of a Lego build is not an issue for its primary purpose.)
Nor do I think a beginner is going to become disillusioned with electronics as easily as you think.
(Not to mention that you conveniently ignore that soldered circuits can also be wrong, and it’s much harder to fix.) -
Given the speed, ease, cheapeness, and learning soldering associated with other methods (especially rats nest and manhattan)
Those methods share none of the speed, ease, and cheapness of a breadboard. If you claim you can solder up an IC faster than you can plug it and some jumpers into a breadboard, you’re lying, plain and simple.
Oooh! A classic case of cherry-picking - as you ought to realise.
Nobody wants to do only what you have described - they also want to get the circuit working, and that's where the problems lie.Quoteare solderless breadboards worth the risk of losing time and a beginner becoming disilusioned?
Yes, emphatically!
As I’ve told you before: you have no clue what a true beginner is, nor the joy that comes from being able to just experiment.
Now you are just being arrogant and ignorant. You know very little about me and my experiences, and have apparently ignored what I have mentioned in the past.QuoteSoldering in no way provides that immediacy and desirable impermanence.
I disagree.
If a technique is perceived to be slightly slower, then it has the added benefit of encouraging people to think and understand before making a semi-random change.
The satisfaction that comes from understanding, predicting, and making something work is much greater than that of fiddling until something (appears to) work. Far too much industrial software is little more than that such ignorant twiddling, and the results are unpleasant.QuoteNor do I think a beginner is going to become disillusioned with electronics as easily as you think.
Robert Smith gave just such an anecdote above. I've witnessed others.Quote(Not to mention that you conveniently ignore that soldered circuits can also be wrong, and it’s much harder to fix.)
That depends on the construction technique; rats nest is very fast to change. -
Your aggressive, myopic arrogance is quite remarkable. It just boggles the mind how you are just completely and utterly incapable (or unwilling) of seeing the value solderless breadboards have. Nobody says they’re perfect, nor suitable for every situation, but one has to be stupid and/or delusional to be incapable of seeing what they are good for.Given the speed, ease, cheapeness, and learning soldering associated with other methods (especially rats nest and manhattan)
Those methods share none of the speed, ease, and cheapness of a breadboard. If you claim you can solder up an IC faster than you can plug it and some jumpers into a breadboard, you’re lying, plain and simple.
Oooh! A classic case of cherry-picking - as you ought to realise.
Nobody wants to do only what you have described - they also want to get the circuit working, and that's where the problems lie.Quoteare solderless breadboards worth the risk of losing time and a beginner becoming disilusioned?
Yes, emphatically!
As I’ve told you before: you have no clue what a true beginner is, nor the joy that comes from being able to just experiment.
Now you are just being arrogant and ignorant. You know very little about me and my experiences, and have apparently ignored what I have mentioned in the past.QuoteSoldering in no way provides that immediacy and desirable impermanence.
I disagree.
If a technique is perceived to be slightly slower, then it has the added benefit of encouraging people to think and understand before making a semi-random change.
The satisfaction that comes from understanding, predicting, and making something work is much greater than that of fiddling until something (appears to) work. Far too much industrial software is little more than that such ignorant twiddling, and the results are unpleasant.QuoteNor do I think a beginner is going to become disillusioned with electronics as easily as you think.
Robert Smith gave just such an anecdote above. I've witnessed others.Quote(Not to mention that you conveniently ignore that soldered circuits can also be wrong, and it’s much harder to fix.)
That depends on the construction technique; rats nest is very fast to change.
As for me “not knowing” your background: no, I don’t know your back story. But my observations don’t require that, as your ongoing statements clearly lay bare that you do not understand the learning process.
Not to mention the frustration at the fact that you ruin every single fucking thread about breadboards with your toxic attitude.