can do 1 MHz easily and up to 10 MHz might be possible.
Which is too little for practically all digital circuits with edge rates in range of hundreds of MHz. On the other hand, these ICs are nowadays on breakout boards anyway because of non-availability in DIP packages. It's a good idea to solder at least power supply bypass components on those breakout boards.
Breadboards are then fine as carriers for pre-designed microcontroller boards; like the classic Arduino would be if they did not mess up the pitch of their connectors.
Same laws of physics apply to beginners and professionals. Beginners mostly build digital circuitry in this era, microcontrollers and such. Spurious random resets and weird behavior is disencouraging especially for beginners; I still remember those days myself and later, struggles of others whom I have been mentoring. There are so many possible culprits, some more likely, some less likely: ESD damage, heat damage, software bugs (stack overflows, lack of volatile, overindexing and memory corruption), poor power bypassing, long power wiring (inductive power supply), poor contacts, especially with low-cost "dupont" wires, counterfeit components from Ebay.
Ruling out those that can be easily ruled out makes life so much easier.
https://www.amazon.com/8088-Project-Book-Robert-Grossblatt/dp/0830602712
Most people using these breadboards are beginners doing fairly simple things or experienced people that know full well their shortcomings.
See Siwastaja's post.
People that have "experienced" the
lack of problems with the alternatives rarely return to solderless breadboards.
I've never had an issue that was caused only by the board, but I use almost exclusively the 3M brand.
Whether or not a problem is "caused only by the board" is a meaningless distinction that is of no practical use - especially for beginners.
I haven't come across a solderless breadboard that remains good over time. They degrade for many reasons including merely different size/shape leads being inserted repeatedly.
Then you need to try the best, which is 3M. Those are famous for remaining good even after decades of use. At my old work (a vocational training center) they have 3M breadboards from the 80s and 90s, all still in perfect working order — and as you can imagine, teenagers aren’t always the most gentle users.
As others have said: don’t slam the entire product category based on the junk. The good stuff really is good. (Which is also why it costs way, way more.)
Same laws of physics apply to beginners and professionals. Beginners mostly build digital circuitry in this era, microcontrollers and such.
I don’t think one can generalize like that. Some beginners like digital, others prefer analog.
People that have "experienced" the lack of problems with the alternatives rarely return to solderless breadboards.
I think that’s a generalization that is basically impossible to make.
Here’s the thing about soldering prototypes: 1. Sometimes you want to experiment, not prototype a specific, more or less well-defined circuit.
2. Soldering up a circuit is only fast and easy for people who are experienced at soldering. Beginners aren’t, and a breadboard is a great way to approach circuits without having yet become proficient at soldering. I think it’s entirely unreasonable to expect novices who still aren’t experienced at soldering to solder their experiments, because it means that their soldering frustrations can prevent them from ever exploring the circuits.
But ultimately, what irritates me about the anti-breadboard brigade here is their stubborn, arrogant blindness to the fact that their way isn’t the only way. And this is why I call them out on it. They need to learn that things exist for a reason, and that just because it’s not right for them doesn’t mean it’s wrong for everyone else.
I don’t think one can generalize like that. Some beginners like digital, others prefer analog.
Analog is notoriously hard to get working on a breadboard, though. Opamps and comparators become oscillators when you apply tens of pF between random pins, even if your intended operational BW was supposed to be in single-digit kHz.
2. Soldering up a circuit is only fast and easy for people who are experienced at soldering. Beginners aren’t
But if you just start to solder, you will learn it pretty quickly. You can't avoid soldering anyway. Most of today's parts are in non-DIP packages so you need to solder them to breakout boards.
stubborn, arrogant blindness to the fact that their way isn’t the only way
You are the only one with this attitude problem. Others are just commenting factually, giving good advice, and not interested about the possible emotions it causes in you. It is finally for the OP to decide what they want to do, given the facts. You can not silence the facts by this emotional BS.
I don’t think one can generalize like that. Some beginners like digital, others prefer analog.
Analog is notoriously hard to get working on a breadboard, though. Opamps and comparators become oscillators when you apply tens of pF between random pins, even if your intended operational BW was supposed to be in single-digit kHz.
It works fine for the low frequency stuff beginners need to do.
Seriously. I’m just finishing up a 4-year apprenticeship in electronics. Breadboards are used constantly in education and they work fine for their intended purpose.
2. Soldering up a circuit is only fast and easy for people who are experienced at soldering. Beginners aren’t
But if you just start to solder, you will learn it pretty quickly. You can't avoid soldering anyway. Most of today's parts are in non-DIP packages so you need to solder them to breakout boards.
Nonetheless it is a skill that must be acquired. And the tiny SMD-only parts are often not suitable for dead-bugging either, at least not by soldering novices.
I don’t think one can generalize like that. Some beginners like digital, others prefer analog.
Analog is notoriously hard to get working on a breadboard, though. Opamps and comparators become oscillators when you apply tens of pF between random pins, even if your intended operational BW was supposed to be in single-digit kHz.
It works fine for the low frequency stuff beginners need to do.
Siwastaja is right in many cases. There's an old maxim: "oscillators don't, amplifiers oscillate".
Seriously. I’m just finishing up a 4-year apprenticeship in electronics. Breadboards are used constantly in education and they work fine for their intended purpose.
Ah. Your experiences and attitudes begin to make sense.
You have been recapitulating experiments that have been
designed and
tested to work with solderless breadboards
before the apprentices are let loose with them.
That doesn't apply to the experiments done by most beginners, nor to 99.9% that might be done as part of a professional engineering job.
stubborn, arrogant blindness to the fact that their way isn’t the only way
You are the only one with this attitude problem.
This debate has come up over and over and I am not the only one irritated by you guys and your arrogance. Others have expressed the same thing.
Others are just commenting factually, giving good advice
…
given the facts.
And there’s that arrogance again: you guys
aren’t giving facts, you’re giving opinions, but acting as though they were facts. (There’s nothing wrong with opinions, as long as you treat them as what they are.)
You are the only one with this attitude problem. Others are just commenting factually, giving good advice, and not interested about the possible emotions it causes in you. It is finally for the OP to decide what they want to do, given the facts. You can not silence the facts by this emotional BS.
I don’t object because of emotions.
I object because you discourage people from using a useful tool just because YOU don’t like that tool. That’s dumb.
2. Soldering up a circuit is only fast and easy for people who are experienced at soldering. Beginners aren’t
But if you just start to solder, you will learn it pretty quickly. You can't avoid soldering anyway. Most of today's parts are in non-DIP packages so you need to solder them to breakout boards.
Nonetheless it is a skill that must be acquired. And the tiny SMD-only parts are often not suitable for dead-bugging either, at least not by soldering novices.
True.
Given the choice between teaching beginners to:
- solder
- know how to avoid the problems with solderless breadboard construction techniques
I would choose the former and
not the latter.
And that is what I have done
stubborn, arrogant blindness to the fact that their way isn’t the only way
You are the only one with this attitude problem.
This debate has come up over and over and I am not the only one irritated by you guys and your arrogance. Others have expressed the same thing.
Others are just commenting factually, giving good advice
…
given the facts.
And there’s that arrogance again: you guys aren’t giving facts, you’re giving opinions, but acting as though they were facts. (There’s nothing wrong with opinions, as long as you treat them as what they are.)
Not true. Facts and reasons have been given.
Just because you haven't been bitten by a problem doesn't mean it isn't a real problem. Your "absence of (personal) evidence" of problems isn't "evidence of absence" of the problems.
There's a relevant English proverb "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".
Siwastaja is right in many cases. There's an old maxim: "oscillators don't, amplifiers oscillate".
I’m well aware.
But that’s not unique to breadboards. It can happen on veroboard, it can happen on dead bug, and it can happen on real PCBs. (I recently redesigned a PCB for someone whose amplifier — a device with 4GHz bandwidth — was oscillating. His layout had issues and so oscillated. My layout is stable.)
Seriously. I’m just finishing up a 4-year apprenticeship in electronics. Breadboards are used constantly in education and they work fine for their intended purpose.
Ah. Your experiences and attitudes begin to make sense.
But just to be clear, that’s just to formalize what’s been a hobby for decades.
You have been recapitulating experiments that have been designed and tested to work with solderless breadboards before the apprentices are let loose with them.
Some are, some aren’t. They also get used for circuit design.
That doesn't apply to the experiments done by most beginners
I vehemently disagree with this statement, based on both experience and from seeing what countless novices do e.g. on YouTube. Breadboards are used commonly for lashing things together.
… nor to 99.9% that might be done as part of a professional engineering job.
I totally agree with this statement. But then again, nobody that asks about breadboarding is asking as a professional. They’re the beginners and hobbyists who are nowhere near “professional engineers”.
Siwastaja is right in many cases. There's an old maxim: "oscillators don't, amplifiers oscillate".
I’m well aware.
But that’s not unique to breadboards. It can happen on veroboard, it can happen on dead bug, and it can happen on real PCBs. (I recently redesigned a PCB for someone whose amplifier — a device with 4GHz bandwidth — was oscillating. His layout had issues and so oscillated. My layout is stable.)
Seriously. I’m just finishing up a 4-year apprenticeship in electronics. Breadboards are used constantly in education and they work fine for their intended purpose.
Ah. Your experiences and attitudes begin to make sense.
But just to be clear, that’s just to formalize what’s been a hobby for decades.
You have been recapitulating experiments that have been designed and tested to work with solderless breadboards before the apprentices are let loose with them.
Some are, some aren’t. They also get used for circuit design.
No doubt the projects and available/suggested components have also been carefully chosen to avoid most problems with solderless breadboards.
That doesn't apply to the experiments done by most beginners
I vehemently disagree with this statement, based on both experience and from seeing what countless novices do e.g. on YouTube. Breadboards are used commonly for lashing things together.
Not a good argument. Yoootoob is full of videos of people doing things that could easily go wrong but didn't. Pre-yoooutoob there were "hilarious" blooper TV programmes of people slipping/falling/hitting and walking away laughing.
… nor to 99.9% that might be done as part of a professional engineering job.
I totally agree with this statement. But then again, nobody that asks about breadboarding is asking as a professional. They’re the beginners and hobbyists who are nowhere near “professional engineers”.
Professionals know the problems and understand the reasons; that's why they choose to use cheap simple easy techniques with fewer problems.
As I taught my daughter, it is OK to make
new mistakes, but try not to repeat old known mistakes.
You have been recapitulating experiments that have been designed and tested to work with solderless breadboards before the apprentices are let loose with them.
Some are, some aren’t. They also get used for circuit design.
No doubt the projects and available/suggested components have also been carefully chosen to avoid most problems with solderless breadboards.
No, that’s really not how it is.
Some projects were specific experiments, but others are absolutely not, with the apprentices free to order whatever components they want for projects and stuff. To be clear, it is in no way limited to curated experiments!!
That doesn't apply to the experiments done by most beginners
I vehemently disagree with this statement, based on both experience and from seeing what countless novices do e.g. on YouTube. Breadboards are used commonly for lashing things together.
Not a good argument. Yoootoob is full of videos of people doing things that could easily go wrong but didn't.
Again, the same can be said for veroboard builds and PCBs. But the fact that these circuits do work when assembled on breadboard means they the breadboard is not inherently incapable of being used for them, as you argue.
… nor to 99.9% that might be done as part of a professional engineering job.
I totally agree with this statement. But then again, nobody that asks about breadboarding is asking as a professional. They’re the beginners and hobbyists who are nowhere near “professional engineers”.
Professionals know the problems and understand the reasons; that's why they choose to use cheap simple easy techniques with fewer problems.
As I already said: those techniques eliminate some problems but introduce some of their own. And again, they require higher skill that cannot necessarily be expected of an absolute beginner.
This debate
Yet, you are the one who makes it a debate. You just can't let go, you just can't accept the fact people are expressing their viewpoint. You can't accept people try to be helpful simply because you happen to disagree. You are the only one who is making this almost like a religious question. You are projecting your own absolute opinion of the matter unto others.
Please stop picking fights especially in the beginner section. Or actually, no, let's just use the ignore feature, which I seldom use, but it's good for chronic troublemakers. If others did the same and stopped responding in obvious trolling (by actual definition of trolling, and I mean it, not just namecalling; see reply #6), the forum would have better S/N ratio.
That doesn't apply to the experiments done by most beginners
I vehemently disagree with this statement, based on both experience and from seeing what countless novices do e.g. on YouTube. Breadboards are used commonly for lashing things together.
Not a good argument. Yoootoob is full of videos of people doing things that could easily go wrong but didn't.
Again, the same can be said for veroboard builds and PCBs. But the fact that these circuits do work when assembled on breadboard means they the breadboard is not inherently incapable of being used for them, as you argue.
Strawman arguments aren't convincing.
Firstly, as you would realise if you had read my reference, I'm not a great fan of stripboards and related techniques. They each have their own problems, but they avoid some common problems inherent in solderless breadboards.
More importantly, I haven't claimed solderless breadboards can't be used. I do claim, for the justifications given, that they are inherently unreliable.
In a similar vein, I wouldn't claim that running into the road without looking inherently means you will be knocked down by a vehicle.
… nor to 99.9% that might be done as part of a professional engineering job.
I totally agree with this statement. But then again, nobody that asks about breadboarding is asking as a professional. They’re the beginners and hobbyists who are nowhere near “professional engineers”.
Professionals know the problems and understand the reasons; that's why they choose to use cheap simple easy techniques with fewer problems.
As I already said: those techniques eliminate some problems but introduce some of their own. And again, they require higher skill that cannot necessarily be expected of an absolute beginner.
Which is more valuable for a beginner:
- being lead towards appreciating better "higher" skills, or
- being lead towards debugging intermittent and pattern sensitive errors?
Well, I suppose using a solderless breadboard is a good "learning experience" hinting at the virtues of robustness, reliability, and predictability.
I think this thread has gone a little off track.
I just wanted to know if a vendors merch was any good and it's descended into another battle of opinions on breadboard in general.
Each to their own guys.
All opinions noted. Thank you for your replies.