Bench computer: Linux workable, or need Windows?

[james_s]

And as you yourself pointed out she just does web stuff, if all I did was email and web browsing plus some office stuff I would happily use linux too. but the moment I am trying to get less conventional software it becomes a pain so I go with what works.

The OP said "I use this system to read web pages and PDF files, simple serial connections and to connect test gear to" so the first part is exactly what my mom uses her computer for, the serial connections are native to Linux without even installing separate software so that's not an issue either. The wildcard is connecting to test equipment, if the equipment you're using is supported under Linux then it's not an issue. If it requires Windows then it makes sense to use Windows.

[Simon]

If the instruments come with linux software sure, not a problem. as I said from the start, this is not a is one better than the other argument or it should not be, it's for the OP to work out for themselves. If they like linux and think it will work for them and have the programs they need or drivers for any hardware great.

What is confusing me is why the question in the first place. The typical response should have been, so you'd go with windows normally but are considering linux, why do you think linux would be a good idea? that way we find out what the OP is actually doing and can better recommend.

A benchtop computer will soon be used for more than what was listed. You going to take your MCU project back to yo,ur main machine to recompile and flash a small change in the code you think you should make having seen it work on the bench and then take it back to the bench? soon you will want to open the code, edit, compile and program on the bench. Can you run your chosen IDE on linux? I don't have a bench computer, it's my main machine, I bring the instruments to the desk. At my current job my desk and bench are the same thing, it was easier to get a pico scope for now so that I could may the desk PC be the o'scope and save the space of a real one on my desk.

[rsjsouza]

Since this is a thread that shows personal preferences, here's my $0.02

I tend to do an opposite scenario as mentioned by some: use Windows natively (7 or 8.1 work well for the majority of these off products) and run Linux in a good VMware, as my experience in running these on this VM provider is more stable and compatible. Not to mention that I prefer to set up a CIFS server on the VM to share files with the native Windows instead of dancing around with the USB pendrive switch.

The reason of keeping Windows natively is simply due to better compatibility with several bits and bobs of hardware: a TL866CS, an old Vividia USB microscope, a Kingst LA2016 logic analyzer, an OWON VDS1022I, some older Altera/Intel development environments, etc. For even older tools I tend to keep an older Dell laptop with Windows XP. I also use lots of small utilities that improve my productivity by a huge margin (Notepad++, XVI32, Beyond Compare, Screenpresso, Freecommander, Irfanview, Teraterm, etc.)

[tkamiya]

I use both.

My workbench PC is Windows.  I mostly use it to display datasheet and such.
My instrumentation PCs are Windows.  As you said, most control and record programs always support Windows but not necessary Linux.

My office PCs where I do design work and more "complicated stuff" are Windows, Linux, and Mac.  Using softwares like VNC, I can login to any of them from anywhere inside my LAN.

If you can't decide, why don't you run Windows as base OS, and Linux using virtualization software?  I did that for a while, too.

[Renate]

When I had space for a big setup I had a large "desktop" desk with triple monitors. The video board had a total of 6 outputs. I put another video display on my workbench. When I needed reference stuff for wiring I'd just drag a window over to that display. If I needed more I'd just grab my wireless keyboard/mouse. This also allowed me to let stuff run on my workbench and keep an eye on the desktop.

[artag]

What is confusing me is why the question in the first place. The typical response should have been, so you'd go with windows normally but are considering linux, why do you think linux would be a good idea? that way we find out what the OP is actually doing and can better recommend.

There are many people unhappy with what Windows has become, especially post WIn 7. If the OP wants to know how he'll get on with changing to Linux especially in the context of electronics work or supplementing his familiar PC with another on the workbench, it's a pretty reasonable question. In gaming, web browsing, office work etc. the tradeoffs and answers may be different.

The answer is that it's definitely not a handicap for the people here who use it, but for a few, it would be.

Note that some responders prefer Windows because it remains compatible with older devices (eprom programmers etc) which were distributed with proprietary software. This may well continue to be the case when newer equipment is bought and has updated software for Win 10 etc. But if you're sticking not with Windows generally but an older version such as XP, because that old software won't run on a newer OS, you'll also be stuck when it becomes inconvenient to run the old OS. At that point you have to choose between replacing the hardware or running the obsolete under emulation. The best solution then may not match the best now.

[artag]

Posts: 1337

1337 contributor

[tooki]

My 2¢ as a Mac user (which in terms of engineering software is in a very similar situation to Linux: some stuff available, including practically all the open source stuff, the rest available via wine or VirtualBox): you can do it, but it’s less hassle on Windows.

For what it's worth, I'm writing this reply on the new HP laptop (well, convertible) I picked up a week ago specifically for schoolwork (since I'm doing an electronics apprenticeship). My poor old MacBook was just struggling with the burden of VirtualBox, since the MacBook was already at its limits. This new doodad is far more powerful than the MacBook ever was (granted, it's 9 years younger, too!), and handles Altium without breaking a sweat. It came with Windows 11, which seems to iron out some of the UI inconsistencies in Win 10 (but of course adding a few of its own). Everything seems to run fine though, even the Windows 8 drivers for my ancient printer.

[Simon]

windows 11 is windows 10 with some features removed, some added and a nicer UI, but for the problems it has brought they are not bad enough to have me switch the whole OS. as I explained, we act like linux is perfect and bug free. Linux has it's issues just as windows does, it's just a case of picking your battles.

[james_s]

Linux has loads of issues, but at least there is choice, there are multiple distros, the source code is available and even without that there is loads of tweaking and tinkering you can do. There are no forced updates, a Linux machine feels like it's *mine*, whereas a modern Windows machine feels like I'm borrowing a PC from some random person who reconfigures it and reboots it whenever they feel like.

[Messtechniker]

The answer is simple: Whatever works.
In my case Windows for the benchtop and
Linux (Open Media Vault) for the NAS.
Simply use the best of two worlds.

[Simon]

Linux has loads of issues, but at least there is choice, there are multiple distros, the source code is available and even without that there is loads of tweaking and tinkering you can do. There are no forced updates, a Linux machine feels like it's *mine*, whereas a modern Windows machine feels like I'm borrowing a PC from some random person who reconfigures it and reboots it whenever they feel like.

No I don't have weeks to waste trying different distros to get away from a bug. No the source code is no use to me. Check back and see my vesta cp adventure.

[LateLesley]

Well, I run Linux Mint on my bench PC, and pretty much use it as my main one.

I have 3 browsers, the one I use most is Vivaldi, but I also have firefox and chromium installed, to cover any edge case quirks I might run into on different websites.

Libreoffice covers documents and spreadsheets etc.

I've used CuteCom for any serial port stuff, like terminal in network switches connected by serial port, midi stuff too.

The only thing I've really needed windows for was to flash a bios on a motherboard, but I did that from windows installed in a VM (using VirtualBox), and passed through the CH341A , point being, if something REALLY needs windows, the VM covers it.

And I game on it too, using steam mainly. Had a couple of niggles getting a couple of games to work (they had to be stored on an Ext4 partition rather than NTFS), or I had to change the proton version they used, but in the main, they work pretty well.

I've used skype on it to talk to my pal in Manchester, and i've got the Arduino IDE and programmed Arduino stuff with it too.

So, in short, I'd recommend Mint as a First distro, especially if you aren't used to linux, It's pretty robust, without getting lost in  wrong library versions and stuff, unless you try to add some cutting edge software/hardware support.

It is a culture shock coming from windows, but all the basics, it does well. And while some quirkier stuff can have a learning curve, it's far from impossible, and if you install windows in a VM as a backup, it could cover the cases where you know how to do something in windows, and don't have the time to learn the linux equivalent. And it doesn't take long to install. virtualbox is right in the package manager.

Hope you find that helpful.

[Simon]

Yes most programs have their equivalents. When I recently tried linux (ubuntu) I got everything up and running bar MPLABX. in the end I gave up.

[LateLesley]

Yes most programs have their equivalents. When I recently tried linux (ubuntu) I got everything up and running bar MPLABX. in the end I gave up.

Well I can't say for Ubuntu (which Linux Mint is based on), but out of curiosity, I tried installing it. It does work, but it's a bit of a mess really. You get no icons, and I had to use the terminal to install the thing. So not an easy experience for a new linux user, but can be done with some help and instructions, at least in Mint. You'd need to create a launcher (shortcut) for it, and add one into the menu too. So yeah, it's not great. Microchip could make the installer a LOT more user friendly.

[james_s]

No I don't have weeks to waste trying different distros to get away from a bug. No the source code is no use to me. Check back and see my vesta cp adventure.

So you prefer to just not have that choice available to you in the first place? You don't have to waste time trying different distros of Windows to get away from a bug because there aren't any other distros, you just have to live with the bug, and you could do that with Linux too if you prefer. The source code being of no use is because you can't be bothered to make use of it, that doesn't mean there is any advantage to not having it available. For someone who just wants to use whatever is handed to them and never bother trying to tweak anything they can just install Ubuntu and pretend that the default settings cannot be changed, it works at least as well as Windows out of the box and it doesn't force you to update or reboot your system without you telling it to do so.

[Simon]

No I don't have weeks to waste trying different distros to get away from a bug. No the source code is no use to me. Check back and see my vesta cp adventure.

So you prefer to just not have that choice available to you in the first place? You don't have to waste time trying different distros of Windows to get away from a bug because there aren't any other distros, you just have to live with the bug, and you could do that with Linux too if you prefer. The source code being of no use is because you can't be bothered to make use of it, that doesn't mean there is any advantage to not having it available. For someone who just wants to use whatever is handed to them and never bother trying to tweak anything they can just install Ubuntu and pretend that the default settings cannot be changed, it works at least as well as Windows out of the box and it doesn't force you to update or reboot your system without you telling it to do so.

You see what you code monkeys need to understand is that most of the users of a PC are not code monkeys. We just want to sit at a computer and get on with it. Overall windows causes me personally less trouble. I'm not saying the issue is windows alone, as LateLesley said Microchip did not make the installer easy. In fact the little reading around I did - yes because to install something on linux you are forced to visit forums to find out how to do it, clicking on the exe is not always an option - told me that microchip had not been very helpful.

No there are not different distro's of windows, that is it's advantage. Every hardware and software maker knows exactly what they are dealing with and that they have one thing to support.

If a version of linux emerged that was paid for, supported and therefore attracted commercial software and hardware support I would happily pay a licence for it.

[AaronD]

I'm surprised to not see a Raspberry Pi mentioned AT ALL yet.  WOW!

Sure, it's not a high-end gaming rig, but to display schematics and google problems, it's perfectly fine.  I have a 3B+ hiding behind a monitor at the back of my bench.  VESA mounts for both, not to each other but to a common board, which is then mounted to the rails of some custom shelves that I made a few years ago.  The monitor has an external 19VDC supply, which I tapped off to feed a 5V buck converter (demo board for a LM2596), which then feeds the Pi.  Thus, a single AC power plug for both, which I put on a switch.  It has onboard WiFi, which is plenty, and 4 USB ports that come from an onboard 2.0 hub.  (The Pi 4 improves almost everything, but I don't need it for this.)

It runs Linux, of course.  There is technically a version of Windows for it, but it hasn't caught on, so support for Windows on the Pi is not very good.  The official OS, which is based on Debian just like Ubuntu is, has a wonderful support community.

Because it's Linux, which has generic hardware drivers built into the kernel (one per chip instead of one per manufacturer), a lot of old adapters still work too.  I have a USB to 9-pin serial adapter that Windows 10 refuses to use (Device Manager says, "Contact your supplier"), and works just fine in Linux.  In fact, I have a written-for-Windows app running in Wine on a Lubuntu laptop, using that adapter.  (*)

Add a USB oscilloscope, and a USB sound card for some additional func-gen and 'scope channels (limited frequency range and not voltage-calibrated, but still useful), a GPIB adapter to control some other test gear, plus the native GPIO's, etc........


<sub>(*) Not everything is that nice though.  I actually have several USB to 9-pin serial adapters (I wonder how that happened ), and none of them would talk to an old "sealed-unit" audio DSP that came out of the main PA when my church upgraded.  (analog mixer in the booth -> this DSP -> analog amps -> speakers)  I tried all of them, both in Windows and in Linux.  The app would run in Wine, or on Windows 10, but no combination would let it talk to the hardware.  Finally, I dug out an old WinXP laptop that had a native serial port on the dock, and (after waiting 30min to finish booting) that finally worked!

Come to think of it, my main laptop that dual-boots Win10 and Lubuntu, also has a native 9-pin serial port on the dock.  I wonder if that would have worked?  Oh well, I got what I needed.

I suspect though, that the reason the adapters didn't work and the native port did, was because of the additional hardware signals beyond just Tx and Rx.  I wouldn't be surprised if the USB adapters omitted some or all of them, if the native port is actually full-spec, and if this particular device requires them.

So if you need a full-spec 9-pin serial port, then a Pi plus a USB adapter (or the native GPIO-based UART) is probably not going to work for that.</sub>

[james_s]

You see what you code monkeys need to understand is that most of the users of a PC are not code monkeys. We just want to sit at a computer and get on with it. Overall windows causes me personally less trouble. I'm not saying the issue is windows alone, as LateLesley said Microchip did not make the installer easy. In fact the little reading around I did - yes because to install something on linux you are forced to visit forums to find out how to do it, clicking on the exe is not always an option - told me that microchip had not been very helpful.

No there are not different distro's of windows, that is it's advantage. Every hardware and software maker knows exactly what they are dealing with and that they have one thing to support.

If a version of linux emerged that was paid for, supported and therefore attracted commercial software and hardware support I would happily pay a licence for it.

My elderly mother has been using Linux for about 5 years now, she's computer illiterate and certainly not a "code monkey" and it works fine for her. In her case she takes the Windows-like approach and just runs Ubuntu in the "out of the box" default configuration, you don't have to tinker with it if you don't want to, there is no downside to having the ability to do so be there.

There is a paid for and supported distro with commercial software support, Fedora is one of the major ones. I'm not sure why an individual would choose that but you can if you want.

I used Windows for many years and I still like Win7, but Windows has unfortunately morphed into something that is so user-hostile that I have trouble understanding how anyone can tolerate using it. I was forced to use Win10 for a couple of years at a former job and it felt like it was constantly fighting against me, every day it was something, random settings being changed, settings changed back to default, crap I had uninstalled being reinstalled, stuff I had installed getting uninstalled because Windows claimed it was not compatible. Random forced reboots that popped up in the middle of meetings or caused me to lose work when it rebooted while I was away from the desk. Linux is superior to Windows now, not so much because Linux has improved, though it has in many ways, but because Windows has regressed so severely that it is just a nightmare.

And support, hah, have you ever tried contacting Microsoft for support? I wish I had money for every hour I've spent trying to install or troubleshoot something, if only it was always as simple as just clicking an exe.

[Simon]

And my computer illiterate father uses windows. If I gave him linux he would not know any different and have no problems either, web browsing and email reading are not the same as trying to install mplabx that has not been supported properly by it's own manufacturer.

[rsjsouza]

My computer iliterate mother uses Windows 10 and it is a constant source of frustration for her due to the constsnt updates. She would be alright using a Linux machine as well, since she only needs a browser and Thunderbird for her email - ah, and Teamviewer for the occasional remote session.

However, the distance that sets us apart (8000km) prevents me from actually making this move - she has also two friends that help her with several minor things on the computer but they only "speak" Windows.

So, for the time being, Windows is a stumbling block.

[Simon]

most updates happen on shut down, unless it's ancient it should not take long. I had the issue with my fathers laptop because his internet was ridiculously slow and he refused to buy a decent laptop so they just queued up all the time

[tooki]

At least I can say that I’ve been impressed at how much faster updates go on windows 10 compared to earlier versions. Before getting the new HP laptop, I ran windows on my macs in virtual machines, and on the same hardware, windows XP updates took the longest (by far!), windows 7 was a big improvement on that, but windows 10 is a huge improvement over that! It also boots dramatically faster. I don’t necessarily like all the UI changes (win 7 is probably my favorite windows UI), but in terms of performance and stability, windows 10 has left a good impression on me. (The only windows 10 systems I’ve used that take a while to boot are the ones at school, but that’s because they boot over the network, with what strikes me as an unimpressive configuration that reflects poorly on the IT services, not the OS or hardware as such.)

[AaronD]

At least I can say that I’ve been impressed at how much faster updates go on windows 10 compared to earlier versions. Before getting the new HP laptop, I ran windows on my macs in virtual machines, and on the same hardware, windows XP updates took the longest (by far!), windows 7 was a big improvement on that, but windows 10 is a huge improvement over that! It also boots dramatically faster. I don’t necessarily like all the UI changes (win 7 is probably my favorite windows UI), but in terms of performance and stability, windows 10 has left a good impression on me. (The only windows 10 systems I’ve used that take a while to boot are the ones at school, but that’s because they boot over the network, with what strikes me as an unimpressive configuration that reflects poorly on the IT services, not the OS or hardware as such.)

Win10 boots faster because it's not actually shutting down.  The default "shutdown" is actually hibernate, despite what the UI says.  Close all apps, and then hibernate.  Reboot is still all the way down and back up.

You can turn that "feature" off, with admin rights, if you explore the "new and improved" (read: changed for no reason) Control Panel, which also gives you the benefit of using the Windoze partition from a different system (like dual-boot Linux) without breaking it.

[Simon]

fast boot has been a thing since windows 7. IT support  usually start by getting you to disable it if you have issues. I always turn it off and can't tell the difference.