Author Topic: Ooops. Silicone soldering mat.  (Read 12707 times)

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Offline tooki

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Re: Ooops. Silicone soldering mat.
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2023, 12:58:01 pm »
I know that everybody is going to shout me down on this,
And with good reason. Your logic is deeply flawed and your understanding of the problem exhibits major gaps in knowledge.

but I think the need for anti-static mats is highly overrated. I have worked in electronics for well over 50 years
It's eminently possible to be doing something wrong for 50 years.

and have never had a single part become damaged from static.
No, you don't know that. All that you know is that you never experienced a human-detectible ESD event that you could correlate directly to a failure.

You have no clue about how much damage you have caused that didn't lead to immediate failure. A lot of ESD damage is partial, in that the part still works, but is compromised, either in its performance or its lifespan. So if a part failed a year later, you won't necessarily realize that it was an undetected ESD event that caused its premature failure, so you won't attribute the failure to your lack of ESD safety.

The fact that most ESD events are undetectable is why we have to prevent them even in the absence of obvious "evidence". By the time ESD is diagnosed as the root cause (which itself is very difficult to do, since it requires things like SEMs), it's far too late. Preventing ESD damage is easy, so I think it's foolish not to take at least basic steps.

Anecdotally, you hear stories of companies whose product failure rates plummet once they enact proper ESD countermeasures.

Anti-static measure #1 is to not work in a room with a carpet.

Anti-static measure #2 is that anti-static measure #1 is enough.

If you are really worried, then have a grounded plate on the workbench and touch it before working. Once an hour or once each time you sit down is more than enough.

And consider, electricity flows from - to +. And a grounded electrostatic mat is ONE END of that circuit. If you have a static charge and start to pick up a part on that grounded mat, then the charge will leap from you, to the part, and into the mat. WHY provide that path by installing the mat?
That's one reason* ESD stuff is deliberately only weakly conductive: you want a slow discharge that limits the current. That's why you use an ESD mat and not a metal surface.

And of course that's also the reason why you're supposed to use an antistatic wrist band or equivalent (like ESD footwear and a conductive floor or floor mat): so that YOU aren't charged up to begin with. Having the operator at ground potential (0V) is probably the most important thing. A mat also helps in this regard, insofar as you're in contact with it every time you touch your bench. So every time you touch it, you equalize the potential.

A note about ESD footwear: I highly recommend this even if you don't have a conductive floor, simply because ESD footwear makes it much, much harder to create a static charge to begin with. (And it needn't be frumpy ESD-safe clogs; most safety footwear is also made to be ESD-safe. My safety shoes at work are from Puma and look almost identical to my regular Puma sneakers.)

*The other reason being safety.

And if you are going to insist on a static mat anyway, the very last place on earth where I would buy one is AliExpress. For Pete's sake, go to an established electronic supplier. You know, one who charges full price for something that actually works.
The only part of your reply I 100% agree with. (Unless you happen to work somewhere with an ESD tester, in which case you can actually verify whether an item is ESD-safe or not. I was kinda surprised that my cheap ESD brushes from AliExpress did, in fact, pass!)
 
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Offline 5U4GB

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Re: Ooops. Silicone soldering mat.
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2023, 01:29:11 pm »
I know that everybody is going to shout me down on this, but I think the need for anti-static mats is highly overrated. I have worked in electronics for well over 50 years and have never had a single part become damaged from static.

One huge factor is where you live, and whether you have natural or HVAC-provided air flow.  I'm in a location where overnight humidity is 95-98% and during the day it can go as low as 60% on a sunny day but is usually in the 70s, I've never experienced static issues.  OTOH working in an air-conditioned office with very dry air I'd get zapped every time I touched a door handle.
 

Offline aduinstat

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Re: Ooops. Silicone soldering mat.
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2023, 04:09:26 pm »
I know that everybody is going to shout me down on this, but I think the need for anti-static mats is highly overrated. I have worked in electronics for well over 50 years and have never had a single part become damaged from static.

Good for you. I have zapped lots of parts with ESD. When I finally learned about ESD damage and got a mat, things suddenly started working.
 
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Online RoGeorge

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Re: Ooops. Silicone soldering mat.
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2023, 04:51:14 pm »
Same as EPAIII, never did any ESD damage, though I did damaged a lot of parts by reverse soldering them, or by feeding wrong voltage to the board, or by dropping a probe or a screwdriver on the PCB, etc.  But no ESD problems, with or without a mat.  Never wore any antistatic bracelet either.

I've bought my ESD mat mostly for its anti-piercing and chemicals and high temperature resilience, not for the ESD thing.

Not saying ESD damage doesn't exist, just that in practice it doesn't really happen.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2023, 04:56:49 pm by RoGeorge »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ooops. Silicone soldering mat.
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2023, 06:58:32 pm »
Same as EPAIII, never did any ESD damage, though I did damaged a lot of parts by reverse soldering them, or by feeding wrong voltage to the board, or by dropping a probe or a screwdriver on the PCB, etc.  But no ESD problems, with or without a mat.  Never wore any antistatic bracelet either.

I've bought my ESD mat mostly for its anti-piercing and chemicals and high temperature resilience, not for the ESD thing.

Not saying ESD damage doesn't exist, just that in practice it doesn't really happen.
LMAO.

Like EPAIII, you just have “random” failures that you don’t attribute to the ESD events that caused them.

Just to be crystal clear to you both: most ESD events happen with discharges too small to be detected by human senses. That doesn’t mean they’re not happening. So just because you didn’t feel a zap doesn’t mean anything.
 

Online RoGeorge

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Re: Ooops. Silicone soldering mat.
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2023, 07:23:58 pm »
I mean never have had unexplained deteriorated performance in the final circuit, not even when handling fA bias current opamps and such.

Offline tooki

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Re: Ooops. Silicone soldering mat.
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2023, 07:35:02 pm »
I mean never have had unexplained deteriorated performance in the final circuit, not even when handling fA bias current opamps and such.
There are numerous ways ESD damage can manifest. As I said, one is degraded performance. Another is degraded lifespan.
 

Offline edpalmer42

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Re: Ooops. Silicone soldering mat.
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2023, 08:26:19 pm »
Yes, ESD damage is a myth.

Vendors use ESD bags just as a joke.

Big companies use ESD safe procedures for no reason.  I've heard that some will fire you for not using proper procedures, but I'm sure that's just an urban legend.

HP, back when they were one of the best test equipment companies in the world, were obviously idiots and photographs lie.  (Note that Firefox gave me a security warning on this file.  It's just because the site doesn't use https.)

http://hparchive.com/Bench_Briefs/HP-Bench-Briefs-1983-03-05.pdf


Manufacturers work hard to protect their circuits and parts from ESD damage, but that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.  Poor procedures or poor enforcement show up in DOA or warranty claims.  If you haven't seen it, it means that either you've been lucky or you just haven't noticed.

Ed
 
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Offline 5U4GB

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Re: Ooops. Silicone soldering mat.
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2023, 01:32:35 am »
See my previous post, it depends entirely on your environment, so different people will get very different results and no-one is absolutely right or wrong about their issues.  Here, what people worry about isn't ESD but corrosion due to naturally high humidity levels all year round.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ooops. Silicone soldering mat.
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2023, 06:18:59 pm »
Read the article edpalmer42 linked. It has measured voltages at low and high humidity. Sure, in high humidity they’re lower, but still high enough to cause damage.
 
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