Life expectancy vs Lead exposure?

[Nominal Animal]

Wikipedia, here and here.

[bsfeechannel]

I died once. Then I got better.

Well, technically, all cells of your body will be naturally replaced every decade or so.

[janoc]

I'm sure the French government is spending millions to clean up due to "alarmist bullshit" instead of actual risks?

Are you seriously comparing exposure of the workers in the middle of hundreds of tons of lead from the cathedral roof that has both melted down, pulverized and evaporated in the heat of that huge fire to an exposure that you could get by soldering?

Really? 

Actual research shows lead intake is cumulative and definitely harmful at blood levels of 10 µg/dL. It could be worse though. "There is no known safe blood lead concentration. But it is known that, as lead exposure increases, the range and severity of symptoms and effects also increases. Even blood lead concentrations as low as 5 µg/dL, once thought to be a “safe level”, may be associated with decreased intelligence in children, behavioural difficulties, and learning problems." You won't keel over instantly and the biggest risk is definitely associated with children but it is a veritable toxin and should be handled with consideration.

Nobody is disputing toxicity of lead. But there is a big difference between touching lead and having it in your blood!

Here is some actually relevant reading material:

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a145663.pdf (OSHA study of soldering in military environment - "No significant inhalation hazard, low order ingestion hazard" (some were holding the solder in their mouths).

"Occupational Lead Exposure Of Soldering Workers  In An Electronic Factory" - conclusion ("In  conclusion,  since  the  biological  indicators  showed  normal  values,  the  electronic  circuit  board  soldering workers, are not at high risk of exposure to occupational lead.")

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/36286554/vol1no2271204.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DOccupational_Heat_Exposure_of_Workers_in.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A%2F20190821%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20190821T143158Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=4e095684a2168761addbc3525ece09b4ead79b1a37fedd5a27ca0f0610d88602#page=9

And if you are worried about kids, then either don't use leaded solder or keep them away from your work area (which is likely a prudent idea anyway, given the other dangers from the tools and electricity present there).

[janoc]

Wikipedia, here and here.

And your point is? Nobody is disputing that lead is toxic.

[james_s]

Wikipedia, here and here.

And your point is? Nobody is disputing that lead is toxic.

I think his point is that somebody asked where he got the information about absorption so he answered the question.

[janoc]

Wikipedia, here and here.

And your point is? Nobody is disputing that lead is toxic.

I think his point is that somebody asked where he got the information about absorption so he answered the question.

Ah sorry, I got a bit worked up by Scram's post and missed that context. It looked just like another random "lead is bad" (which everyone knows and nobody argues with) post to me.

[Mr. Scram]

Ah sorry, I got a bit worked up by Scram's post and missed that context. It looked just like another random "lead is bad" (which everyone knows and nobody argues with) post to me.

Are you sure you haven't been exposed to lead more than you should? Aggression and diminished mental acuity are side effects of lead poisoning.  All joking aside the subject seems relevant to almost everyone here. I'd prefer to have a civil discussion based on facts presented as chances are we'd learn something. It's really not worth getting worked up about anyway.

[Mr. Scram]

Are you seriously comparing exposure of the workers in the middle of hundreds of tons of lead from the cathedral roof that has both melted down, pulverized and evaporated in the heat of that huge fire to an exposure that you could get by soldering?

Really? 

Nobody is disputing toxicity of lead. But there is a big difference between touching lead and having it in your blood!

Here is some actually relevant reading material:

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a145663.pdf (OSHA study of soldering in military environment - "No significant inhalation hazard, low order ingestion hazard" (some were holding the solder in their mouths).

"Occupational Lead Exposure Of Soldering Workers  In An Electronic Factory" - conclusion ("In  conclusion,  since  the  biological  indicators  showed  normal  values,  the  electronic  circuit  board  soldering workers, are not at high risk of exposure to occupational lead.")

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/36286554/vol1no2271204.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DOccupational_Heat_Exposure_of_Workers_in.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A%2F20190821%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20190821T143158Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=4e095684a2168761addbc3525ece09b4ead79b1a37fedd5a27ca0f0610d88602#page=9

And if you are worried about kids, then either don't use leaded solder or keep them away from your work area (which is likely a prudent idea anyway, given the other dangers from the tools and electricity present there).

Those hundreds of tons are spread around a large area. Keeping children away from tools is a good idea but doesn't preclude the spread of lead outside of the direct soldering area.

[Mr. Scram]

Wikipedia, here and here.

Thanks. I think those numbers should be taken as 1% ultimately being retained rather than 1% being absorbed by your gastronomic system. Meanwhile the other 99% seem to be roaming your body until excreted a few weeks later.

[Nominal Animal]

All joking aside the subject seems relevant to almost everyone here. I'd prefer to have a civil discussion based on facts presented as chances are we'd learn something. It's really not worth getting worked up about anyway.

Absolutely; and not just that, but seeing the basis of others viewpoints gives a much better overall picture.

Life is not a game.  There are no "points" awarded on being right or wrong.  What matters, is that you mentally model the reality around you in ways that allow you to act efficiently in the world.  I prefer rational-analytic thinking, but many moderate religions can also provide such a framework.  For example, the prevalence of trichinella in pork (causing trichinosis in humans, which is pretty horrible) well explains why some consider it "tainted".  For us rational-analytical agnostics, knowing stuff like that makes it much easier to cooperate with religious people, as there is a good idea (that was very pertinent once) behind the edicts.  (Just remember that most humans are not smart or rational, and cannot understand the reasons why some things are bad or to be avoided.  They need the rules.)

For lead, it may be hard for laypeople to understand that lead absorbs into growing bodies at 33 times the rate it does for adults, and what that means when considering the use of lead compounds.  Considering the effects of lead, violence in particular (it has been suggested that the reduction in lead additives in gasoline is a significant reason why violence in western societies has been clearly decreasing in similar fashion -- but correlation is not causation), it is definitely better to be too cautious than cavalier about lead.

It just happens that leaded solder is a clear exception.  Where it is used, there is already a lot of other metals, necessitating proper disposal anyway.  It is in an alloy form, making it quite safe for adults.  (Actually, I tried (a bit, I'm lazy) to find the alloy absorption rates for children, as I think they are much smaller than for lead, but couldn't find any.)  Using non-leaded solder involves the use of harsher chemicals, and I'm not sure if they have solved the issues regarding tin whiskers and such in the long term yet.

So, it is an interesting topic, and complex enough to discuss.

[Nominal Animal]

Meanwhile the other 99% seem to be roaming your body until excreted a few weeks later.

If you consider exactly how heavy metals cause cellular damage, that may be much less dangerous than you think.

Anyway, the small slug of leaded solder I ate has tiny surface area compared to its mass, and does not really dissolve in hydrochloric acid (stomach acid).  It is basically the safest form of lead to ingest.  I believe it has basically passed unchanged from my system, with only some of the surface alloy possibly passing through to my blood; insignificant amounts to worry about -- and only a fraction of the already minuscule amounts I calculated before.  But very interesting to consider in a rational fashion, definitely!

If a kid had eaten a solder ball, I do not think it would warrant using emetics, overall.  A few, or a length of solder, might.  Using emetics, there is always the risk of getting stomach acids in the lungs, which definitely causes irreparable damage.  I am not sure if charcoal would make any difference.  Milk might suffice.

I believe the calculations in my earlier post would match the worst case scenario, eating lead dust.  In macroscopic form, only the surface layers are really subject to dissolving (in stomach acid) and passing to the blood stream.  Also, diet affects lead absorption a lot, and indeed milk is an effective protection against lead being absorbed.

[Mr. Scram]

If you consider exactly how heavy metals cause cellular damage, that may be much less dangerous than you think.

Anyway, the small slug of leaded solder I ate has tiny surface area compared to its mass, and does not really dissolve in hydrochloric acid (stomach acid).  It is basically the safest form of lead to ingest.  I believe it has basically passed unchanged from my system, with only some of the surface alloy possibly passing through to my blood; insignificant amounts to worry about -- and only a fraction of the already minuscule amounts I calculated before.  But very interesting to consider in a rational fashion, definitely!

If a kid had eaten a solder ball, I do not think it would warrant using emetics, overall.  A few, or a length of solder, might.  Using emetics, there is always the risk of getting stomach acids in the lungs, which definitely causes irreparable damage.  I am not sure if charcoal would make any difference.  Milk might suffice.

I believe the calculations in my earlier post would match the worst case scenario, eating lead dust.  In macroscopic form, only the surface layers are really subject to dissolving (in stomach acid) and passing to the blood stream.  Also, diet affects lead absorption a lot, and indeed milk is an effective protection against lead being absorbed.

I've tried finding actual absorption rates of alloyed or pure lead but pretty much all materials seem to focus on more commonly found environmental hazards like lead paints. The lead acetate in paint is presented in thin neat flakes with a huge surface area and is water soluble. Worse still it's sweet so children eat it as a candy instead of just occasionally. Combined with the large lead absorption rate in children it's an accident waiting to happen.

[bjdhjy888]

Though I believe you guy's confident comments on safety for soldering, I seriously think I need to get one of these:

[Nominal Animal]

bjdhjy888: When you solder, there are fumes from the flux too; and if you are anything like me, there's always some piece of plastic melting or burning (from wires or whatever plastic happened to lay on the bench too close to the iron tip when I was looking at some detail).

These fumes are nasty.  You do not want to breathe those fumes.  We just recommend ventilation over a mask, that's all. 

[maginnovision]

bjdhjy888: When you solder, there are fumes from the flux too; and if you are anything like me, there's always some piece of plastic melting or burning (from wires or whatever plastic happened to lay on the bench too close to the iron tip when I was looking at some detail).

These fumes are nasty.  You do not want to breathe those fumes.  We just recommend ventilation over a mask, that's all. 

For some reason I always manage to tag my microscope cover. 

[djacobow]

When I was a little boy fishing with my dad, I more than once put a lead weight in my mouth and chewed it. And we always used our teeth to close the weights on the line, anyway.

So I think the damage is done for me. :-)

That said, there are some fascinating studies that suggest that leaded gasoline seriously poisoned multiple generations of humanity. Some link the drop in crime in the 00's to the banning of leaded gas.