Author Topic: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?  (Read 35264 times)

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Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #125 on: July 30, 2018, 12:44:00 am »
I build my own banana-to-dupont cables, it's far more convenient and reliable than alligator clips to dupont jumper wires. I've done that in the past, and it's hella ghetto, you end up with stuff coming loose, or shorting out… it's OK in a pinch but you'll be happier with properly made cables. Making test leads is a great way to practice your cable termination/splicing/dressing, by the way.

I mean how else is one supposed to do it? I don't even see banana to dupont on Amazon. What do people do if they can't make their own? (how DO you make your own? Literally take a banana plug cable, take a dupont cable, cut off the ends, strip the insulation off, wrap the wires together somehow, add heatshrink, voila? Or no?

Maybe making some of these would be a good experience.

But ultimately don't sweat this too much. Start with the basics (banana-banana, banana-minigrabber,  and minigrabber-minigrabber; I suggest 18"-24"), and buy yourself some flexible wire and some quality banana plugs (any of the brands I listed above is great) and make additional cables as you discover the need for them. I highly recommend the Pomona 1825 banana plugs, because they're solderless with a set screw that requires no disassembly, so you can easily and quickly build a custom cable with them for a specific purpose, and later reuse the plugs for some other cable as your needs change. (Many other plugs hide the set screw under a sheath that you have to wrestle off first.)

So these banana plugs, the screw just compresses down so it grabs onto the exposed copper of whatever wire you feed into it? Is this like crimping?
 

Offline tooki

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #126 on: July 30, 2018, 01:20:01 am »
I build my own banana-to-dupont cables, it's far more convenient and reliable than alligator clips to dupont jumper wires. I've done that in the past, and it's hella ghetto, you end up with stuff coming loose, or shorting out… it's OK in a pinch but you'll be happier with properly made cables. Making test leads is a great way to practice your cable termination/splicing/dressing, by the way.

I mean how else is one supposed to do it? I don't even see banana to dupont on Amazon. What do people do if they can't make their own? (how DO you make your own? Literally take a banana plug cable, take a dupont cable, cut off the ends, strip the insulation off, wrap the wires together somehow, add heatshrink, voila? Or no?

Maybe making some of these would be a good experience.
I've never seen a banana-to-male dupont cable for sale, ever. I find it baffling because I find them so incredibly useful for connecting to breadboards and PCB headers. (The closest you can get is banana-to-pin adapters, but they tend to be costly!) It doesn't help that "dupont" isn't really the official name for those things, it's what the chinese seem to have settled on calling them. (There is no universal name for them, really.) So it is possible that somebody makes them, but under what name? (Banana-to-female dupont do exist, but are nonetheless extraordinarily rare.)

So yes, what you'd do is buy some sacrificial dupont jumper cables (for example, a M-F 30cm, so you can cut it in half and get half M, half F of about 6" each), some nice 20 or 18ga test lead wire to whatever length you want, splice those together (soldered and heatshrinked, kinda like this), and then attach a banana plug to the other end. (Or yes, you could cut a prebought banana cable in half and use that.)

I've also made some male dupont-to-banana cables by soldering male header pins (the kind intended for PCBs) directly to 24ga silicone test lead wire, and then soldering that to a solder-type banana plug. But the pin is some fiddly soldering, so perhaps not the ideal thing to begin with. I also do some by crimping dupont pins/jacks, but lemme tell you, affordable crimping tools and dupont parts are fiddly as fuck, and it's a rabbit hole I kinda wish I'd never even gone down. I suggest you start with the splicing method for now. :)

Someone totally unwilling to make their own might purchase off-the-shelf banana-banana cables and then banana-to-pin adapters like the Pomona 4690 and 4691 (female and male, respectively). These adapters work well, but their substantial girth really gets in the way, I find. The weight of the adapter and banana plug will pull a small breadboard or PCB on its side! And they're kinda expensive, at around $5 per adapter.


But ultimately don't sweat this too much. Start with the basics (banana-banana, banana-minigrabber,  and minigrabber-minigrabber; I suggest 18"-24"), and buy yourself some flexible wire and some quality banana plugs (any of the brands I listed above is great) and make additional cables as you discover the need for them. I highly recommend the Pomona 1825 banana plugs, because they're solderless with a set screw that requires no disassembly, so you can easily and quickly build a custom cable with them for a specific purpose, and later reuse the plugs for some other cable as your needs change. (Many other plugs hide the set screw under a sheath that you have to wrestle off first.)

So these banana plugs, the screw just compresses down so it grabs onto the exposed copper of whatever wire you feed into it? Is this like crimping?
It's not considered a crimp, but yes, the screw clamps down onto the exposed copper, resulting in both mechanical and electrical connection. You strip off like 1/4" or so. This doesn't work well for very thin wire, hence the suggestion above of splicing the thin wire onto a longer thick wire if needed. Or use solder-type banana plugs for thinner wires.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 01:24:05 am by tooki »
 
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Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #127 on: July 30, 2018, 02:09:48 am »
Thanks, tooki.

I am actually kind of excited at the notion of making my own specialized wires... one more thing to practice / get good at.

I also find it kind of crazy that there isn't a banana -> dupont thing by default for sale. I looked around online for some examples of how people connect their bench PSUs to breadboards and had a bit of a laugh: youtube.com/watch?v=VsEzzat6E9s&t=3m15s

-- in the comments someone asks what those cables are because they've looked everywhere, and the the author says "I think the search term 'banana plugs' could help. These cables are very old (>10 years) and, moreover, I did not buy them. Therefore, I am not able to give you the exact name :/" (i.e. he likely made them himself, too)

Crazy to me that these aren't a standard thing!

What crimping tools / crimp connectors do you think are worth looking into? Or are a variety of tools needed for a variety of situations?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 02:12:42 am by AnyNameWillDo »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #128 on: July 30, 2018, 03:18:48 am »
What crimping tools / crimp connectors do you think are worth looking into? Or are a variety of tools needed for a variety of situations?
Good crimping requires a really good match between tool and connector, and that's only guaranteed by using name-brand connectors and the official tooling, which ranges between "damn that's expensive" and "jesus h christ is the tool made out of solid gold forged in fires fueled by unicorn blood?".

That's an exaggeration for large, reasonably standardized connectors like lugs and spades. Those are fairly interchangeable and OK tools can be bought on a normal budget. The same cannot be said for small connectors. They require precisely ground dies (which you cannot find in a cheap chinese tool), and the slight differences in connector shapes end up requiring different tooling, lest you simply crush other parts of the connector. It's absolutely not worth getting into at this phase of your hobby.
 
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Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #129 on: July 30, 2018, 03:39:07 am »
Oh nice, I think these are the banana connectors you mentioned, only like $2 apiece on Digikey:

https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/p/pomona-electronics/1825-series-banana-plugs

Although I also need to go figure out what size the PSU would accept just to be safe.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 03:41:04 am by AnyNameWillDo »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #130 on: July 30, 2018, 04:00:17 am »
Yes, those are the ones!

What size what? A banana plug is a standard size (4mm), with a fairly large tolerance for variation since the plugs are springy.
 
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Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #131 on: July 30, 2018, 04:17:40 am »
Ah okay.

I presume I should get a few red/black/green to match the PSU (3 red 3 black 1 green)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 04:21:42 am by AnyNameWillDo »
 

Offline ez24

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #132 on: July 30, 2018, 04:52:04 am »
FYI  take a look at these minis

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/pomona-electronics/3782-36-02/501-1324-ND/736657

see that the wire enters at 45 degrees.   This is a good mini.  I once found some on Aliexpress and they were expensive (seems like $3 ea) and I made some mini to mini cables with 18 ga silicone wire.  They came out nice.

The cheap  minis at 90 degrees are POS.  I threw all mine away.

This is a good way to check quality
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Offline rstofer

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #133 on: July 30, 2018, 04:52:32 am »
You could use the banana to gripper jumpers to power a prototype board by using pin headers in the board.  You don't necessarily have to cut and patch jumpers.

Just look for 0.025' square pin headers.  They usually come with 40 pins and can be cut to length.  I can't find them on Digikey right now but I also buy the 6 pin headers from Digilent

https://store.digilentinc.com/6-pin-header-gender-changer-5-pack/

Some gripper clips I have used have a 0.025" opening on the nose for connecting vertically to this type of header.  Not necessary but nice...
 
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Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #134 on: July 30, 2018, 04:58:33 am »
Regarding all these connectors, leads, etc: How many of these should I probably be picking up anyhow?

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/pomona-electronics/3782-36-02/501-1324-ND/736657 looks quite nice (as ez24 linked)... maybe I should just get all my connectors/leads here (haven't ordered any ICs/logic chips/etc yet so I can just pile all of this into the same order and hopefully get free shipping).

Or would it be better to get minigrabber connectors similar to the Pomona banana-plug connectors with the screws to make everything even more modular? (not sure if these even exist) -- I do see individuals here though (filtering on Pomona and Minigrabber):

https://www.digikey.com/products/en/test-and-measurement/test-clips-grabbers-hooks/620?k=&pkeyword=&v=501&pv183=5046&FV=ffe0026c&quantity=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&pageSize=500
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 05:38:40 am by AnyNameWillDo »
 

Offline ez24

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #135 on: July 30, 2018, 05:39:46 am »
Regarding all these connectors, leads, etc: How many of these should I probably be picking up anyhow?

I would say 3 sets.  One for the PS and one for each multimeter ( two - one for V and one for I )

As others have said be sure to check out "Frankie"  (actually now it is his brother).  Good response from members:

https://www.ebay.com/str/99centHobbies

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Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #136 on: July 30, 2018, 05:46:14 am »
I'll check that out -- thanks.

I'm a little lost what the differences are between all these Pomona Minigrabbers...

Edit: Ah according to the comparison tool it appears the only real difference is the "Termination", e.g.    
Solder, 0.090" (2.29mm) Wire Opening vs. Solder, 0.144" (3.66mm) Wire Opening
(Minigrabber 3925 vs Minigrabber 4555 series)

Although there's also a Minigrabber 4176 that otherwise matches the termination of the Minigrabber 3925 and seems more expensive than just getting two of the previous:
(and in fact appear to have the same data sheet). Whaaaaat.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 05:52:48 am by AnyNameWillDo »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #137 on: July 30, 2018, 10:44:01 am »
You could use the banana to gripper jumpers to power a prototype board by using pin headers in the board.  You don't necessarily have to cut and patch jumpers.

Just look for 0.025' square pin headers.
FYI, I do not recommend using square pin headers on breadboards, in particular, not on cheap breadboards. They're too thick and splay the contacts. Machined headers are thinner and work better.

Although there's also a Minigrabber 4176 that otherwise matches the termination of the Minigrabber 3925 and seems more expensive than just getting two of the previous:
(and in fact appear to have the same data sheet). Whaaaaat.
Gotta read the whole datasheet, man. ;) It's titled "Model 3925 & Kits 4176-02 & 5522"

Here's what it says under ORDERING INFORMATION:
Quote
Kit 5522 contains 10 pieces of 3925, one of each color.
Kit 4176-02 contains 2 pieces of 3925, one Black / one Red
 

Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #138 on: July 30, 2018, 12:55:48 pm »
Here's what it says under ORDERING INFORMATION:
Quote
Kit 5522 contains 10 pieces of 3925, one of each color.
Kit 4176-02 contains 2 pieces of 3925, one Black / one Red

I'm referring to two 3925 vs one 4176 pricewise iirc.

At any rate I'm still unsure what to get in terms of quantity / type for all this banana/minigrabber stuff. Better to get the detachables or the full cord? Perhaps additional wire too of a certain gauge?
 

Offline ez24

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #139 on: July 30, 2018, 04:46:41 pm »
Perhaps additional wire too of a certain gauge?

My go to wire is 18 ga stranded silicon.  My guess most use smaller wire, ie 20 ga

 I also use wire assortments from Harbor Freight and Amazon
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Offline Raj

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #140 on: July 30, 2018, 05:02:43 pm »
Forget wall warts and crimper and helping hands
you'll need a good power supply first.
 

Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #141 on: July 30, 2018, 06:39:23 pm »
Perhaps additional wire too of a certain gauge?

My go to wire is 18 ga stranded silicon.  My guess most use smaller wire, ie 20 ga

 I also use wire assortments from Harbor Freight and Amazon

I believe your guess is correct (I think) -- the datasheet suggests suggests it's 20 AWG: https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Pomona%20PDFs/3782.pdf

"Wire: 20 AWG, stranding 41 x 36 t.c., PVC insulated 2.21 (.087) O.D"

However what confuses me is that the datasheet says it's rated for 5 amps:

"Current: 5 Amperes Cont. "

...and yet when I look up the current limitations (from what I can tell, the "ampacity") for each gauge (for copper) online here http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm it says 20 AWG has a max transmission of like 1.3 amps.

I'm probably missing something / will have to research more on how to get the ratings for different wires.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 06:47:34 pm by AnyNameWillDo »
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #142 on: July 30, 2018, 07:24:27 pm »
What crimping tools / crimp connectors do you think are worth looking into? Or are a variety of tools needed for a variety of situations?
Easy enough to manage if using insulated terminals (red, blue, yellow), as you can decent crimpers for this without blowing $500+ for the tool (die nests use the same color code as the terminals). Some non-insulated too.

Otherwise this gets very expensive, very quickly.
 

Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #143 on: July 30, 2018, 07:25:53 pm »
What crimping tools / crimp connectors do you think are worth looking into? Or are a variety of tools needed for a variety of situations?
Easy enough to manage if using insulated terminals (red, blue, yellow), as you can decent crimpers for this without blowing $500+ for the tool (die nests use the same color code as the terminals). Some non-insulated too.

Otherwise this gets very expensive, very quickly.

I think I remember seeing something like that here:

https://www.amazon.com/Titan-Tools-11477-Ratcheting-Terminal/dp/B0069TRKJ0/

Had a red/yellow/blue color marking in the jaws. Not sure yet what the differences are. Is this an example of such a crimper?
 

Offline ez24

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #144 on: July 30, 2018, 07:27:24 pm »

.. it says 20 AWG has a max transmission of like 1.3 amps.


When I hear "transmission",  I think of 100s of feet.  Keep in mind that the current rating of good breadboards is 2 amps.  Even at 1 meter, the voltage drop at 2a is very small.  Try the calculator.

I had no trouble running 5a through 18 inch leads.  FYI the AN8008 leads could not.

If you going to run higher amps then a thicker wire might be more useful.   When I made up my leads, I made a lot of 16 ga with alligator clips.  Like someone else said, I have never used them.  Mini grabbers with 18 ga is what I use.
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Offline nanofrog

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #145 on: July 30, 2018, 07:45:16 pm »
I think I remember seeing something like that here:

https://www.amazon.com/Titan-Tools-11477-Ratcheting-Terminal/dp/B0069TRKJ0/

Had a red/yellow/blue color marking in the jaws. Not sure yet what the differences are. Is this an example of such a crimper?
Yes, that's one example.

Even with that one, you could run into issues due to incorrect adjustment and not able to bring them into spec. QC varies quite a bit.

I use a Panduit CT-1550 (rebranded Wezag CK 100 with a custom die). I've also a Pressmaster MCT (uses interchangeable dies*) that will do these types of terminals as well.  In my case, I'm well down this particular rabbit hole.

* Requires more skill in terminal and wire placement as there are no locators.
 
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Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #146 on: July 30, 2018, 08:02:11 pm »
nanofrog: Jesus these get expensive... why ;-;

ez24: Do the minigrabbers support a fair amount of current even compared to alligator clips? On the data sheets it suggests 5A continuous, despite the mini-grabber being so tiny. Does that seem to hold true to experience? I can't tell if the 5A rating is more the wire, or the metal on the plugs, etc. I would assume the rating would be set to the minimum of all components involved in a particular product.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #147 on: July 30, 2018, 08:05:07 pm »
Had a red/yellow/blue color marking in the jaws. Not sure yet what the differences are. Is this an example of such a crimper?

The colors will match the insulation of the appropriate terminal.  Red terminal - red die.  The difference colors are used to designate the appropriate wire gauge.  Yellow is for big wire - like #12 AWG but you'll have to look up the rest.  It will be marked on the box.

Quality crimpers will produce a joint that can support 25#.
 
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Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #148 on: July 30, 2018, 08:08:37 pm »
The colors will match the insulation of the appropriate terminal.  Red terminal - red die.  The difference colors are used to designate the appropriate wire gauge.  Yellow is for big wire - like #12 AWG but you'll have to look up the rest.  It will be marked on the box.

Quality crimpers will produce a joint that can support 25#.

From what I'm seeing on a few random websites:

YELLOW 12-10 AWG
BLUE 16-14 AWG
RED 22-16 AWG

I guess 13 AWG gets left out cold. :(

It would appear that for the most part we'd likely be dealing with red terminals.

Edit: Looks like the colors start cycling a bit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimp_(electrical)#Wire_gauge_insulation_colors

« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 08:19:24 pm by AnyNameWillDo »
 

Offline ez24

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #149 on: July 30, 2018, 10:32:46 pm »
ez24: Do the minigrabbers support a fair amount of current even compared to alligator clips? On the data sheets it suggests 5A continuous, despite the mini-grabber being so tiny. Does that seem to hold true to experience? I can't tell if the 5A rating is more the wire, or the metal on the plugs, etc. I would assume the rating would be set to the minimum of all components involved in a particular product.

I have no problems at 5a with mine  but I made up my own leads using good grabbers from Aliexpress (cannot find them now).  Look at this rating, 10a

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Silicone-Test-Leads-with-Sprung-Hooks-and-Female-Banana-Connectors-1-Pair/200906287163?hash=item2ec6f2a83b:g:nCsAAMXQq8BQ5cSg

It would be interesting to know if they can do 10a

These might be what I used  -->

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Copper-Sprung-Hook-Mini-Grabber-Hook-Gripper-Test-Probe-5-Colours/171002587855?hash=item27d08c6acf:m:mNh93a8eMPII-FnWWBJx-lw&var=470238327263

I ordered 6 sets of these to make some more leads, I want to throw away my cheap leads

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