Author Topic: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?  (Read 35251 times)

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Offline rstofer

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #150 on: July 30, 2018, 11:19:14 pm »
When it comes to stackable banana plugs, I would prefer to buy them pre-molded rather than side wire them where the wire leaves at 90 degrees to the axis of the plug.  Standard spacing on banana jacks is 3/4" center-to-center and it seems to me that the horizontal wire exit is going to get cumbersome.  It would be out of the question for my application and less than desirable in even a PS lead (in my view).  Or maybe having the power supply on a shelf with the wire running straight down from the plug is a neat feature.  I guess it depends...

I would rather buy the cables pre-built and, if necessary, buy them long enough to cut in half to make up two cables with dupont ends (or whatever).

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/pomona-electronics/B-4-2/501-1322-ND/737950

This Pomona B series is what I have been buying (among other leads).

Page 41 here:
https://www.pomonaelectronics.com/sites/default/files/Pomona_Electronics_Catalog_2016.pdf

The 1325 series stackable plug doesn't have that horizontal shield where the wire comes out.  Page 32.  This would be somewhat easier to use but the safety of the shield is gone.  For my voltage levels, that's not an issue.  But I'm not going to build my patch cables anyway.  In any event, Pomona limits their recommended use in either case to 30V when handling.


 

Offline rstofer

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #151 on: July 30, 2018, 11:26:16 pm »
Test lead holders:

https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=holder%20test%20lead

Different sizes but I suspect the 1508 Pomona will do just about everything.  It holds 0.210" dia cables.

Mount it high enough to allow scope probes to dangle.
 

Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #152 on: July 31, 2018, 01:37:08 am »
Minigrabber 3925 vs. Minigrabber 4555
Termination: Solder, 0.090" (2.29mm) Wire Opening, vs. Solder, 0.144" (3.66mm) Wire Opening

Any advice on picking one or the other? Picking the larger opening seems safer but also possibly riskier if it implies more wear and tear. On the other hand I don't know if the other would be too narrow. Most AWG charts seem to ignore insulation.
 

Online tooki

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #153 on: July 31, 2018, 02:00:48 am »
Minigrabber 3925 vs. Minigrabber 4555
Termination: Solder, 0.090" (2.29mm) Wire Opening, vs. Solder, 0.144" (3.66mm) Wire Opening

Any advice on picking one or the other? Picking the larger opening seems safer but also possibly riskier if it implies more wear and tear.
Wear and tear? Huh? It simply needs to match the wire. Choose the model that matches the wire you intend to use.

I wouldn't bother making minigrabber cables, since they're readily available. Make the ones you can't easily buy. ;)

On the other hand I don't know if the other would be too narrow. Most AWG charts seem to ignore insulation.
[crash course in wire]They "ignore" it because they can't know: there isn't ONE size insulation for a given gauge!! (It's like asking "how fat is a bicycle tire?" — well, it depends…)

Test lead wire has much thicker insulation than ordinary wire of the same gauge, and high-voltage wire (e.g. the stuff used to power neon signs at 10KV) uses far thicker insulation still. And the differences in stranding means stranded wire of a given gauge isn't necessarily the same diameter (excluding insulation!) as a differently-stranded wire of the same gauge, never mind of solid wire, which will be thinner. The only thing that's the same at a given gauge is the total cross-section.[/crash course]

Insulation thickness (that is, the outer diameter of the wire) absolutely is on the spec sheet of any wire you look at. So go to digi-key and look for test lead wire and you'll see what I mean.
 
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Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #154 on: July 31, 2018, 02:05:10 am »
Figured as much -- I just didn't see any insulation data on the wire I had bought, so I was a little unsure. I could probably go measure a cross-section myself but my ruler isn't here yet. :P

At any rate, considering:

3 of these: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1825-2/501-1077-ND/603384/
3 of these: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1825-0/501-1076-ND/603383/
1 of these: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1825-5/501-1247-ND/736243/
3 of these: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3782-36-02/501-1324-ND/736657/

Which I presume would cover all test-lead issues :P
 

Online tooki

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #155 on: July 31, 2018, 03:25:50 am »
That's a good start. Build from there as need arises.

FYI, I'd recommend getting the 24" version of those leads. Unless your bench is HUGE, you'll rarely need 36" and it just becomes a mess. (I actually use a 12" set of those a lot, for measuring things with a handheld DMM.)
 
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Offline ez24

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #156 on: July 31, 2018, 04:18:02 am »
FYI, I'd recommend getting the 24" version of those leads. Unless your bench is HUGE, you'll rarely need 36" and it just becomes a mess. (I actually use a 12" set of those a lot, for measuring things with a handheld DMM.)

I 100% agree, I use 18 inch but 12 would be better.    36 would be a pain
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Offline nanofrog

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #157 on: July 31, 2018, 05:09:11 am »
nanofrog: Jesus these get expensive... why ;-;
A few reasons:
  • Compliance is a huge one. Using the manufacturer's tool for their terminals helps prove compliance. First off, the dies make specific tool markings to indicate it's made a successful crimp. Further proof is provided by pull tests, but this isn't something that can be done in the field, so the tool marks are incredibly important.
  • Cost of manufacture. Good tooling isn't cheap to make. As previously mentioned, the dies are made to high tolerances = takes longer to make. Proper QC (inspection and so on) isn't cheap either.
  • Profit. It's a low volume product, and they want decent margins on it. So the final MSRP's tend to be rather high.
Finding the actual ODM really helps in minimizing costs, but good tooling is still on the pricey side for most hobbyist budgets (hint: Pressmaster, Wezag, Rennsteig/Knipex, Daniels Manufacturing, Sargent would cover most, if not all of the ODM's). There's used of course, and even if they're techically worn just outside of the No-Go spec, that doesn't mean they wouldn't pass a pull test (those that need such tooling can't take the risk as there's almost always liability issues associated with it).

FWIW, you can find decent used models of excellent crimp tooling on eBay here in the US/CAN. Just need to know what you need and be patient.

I guess 13 AWG gets left out cold. :(

Edit: Looks like the colors start cycling a bit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimp_(electrical)#Wire_gauge_insulation_colors


In regard to 13AWG wire (or similar situation), you'd have to test fit the wire in the intended terminal/s. If the strands fit without being fouled in any way, then crimp it.  :-+

As per color recycling, that's quite true. But if you see the wire sizes, it's not hard to figure out (hint: the larger wire sizes will use non-insulated lugs, such as Panduit Compression Terminals).  :P On a side note, the smallest yellow (22 - 26) is sometimes represented by green (i.e. seen yellow terminals in the US on old telcom stuff, and a green nest for this size on one of my Pressmaster dies). One of those strange cases I guess, but also rare that you'd run into it.

Couple of references that might be of interest:These ^ will cover a lot of stuff, such as crimping to soldering and everything else in between. I'd recommend bookmarking these, the first link in particular.  ;)
 
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Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #158 on: July 31, 2018, 05:39:39 am »
Great resource -- thanks!

 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #159 on: July 31, 2018, 05:50:03 am »
Great resource -- thanks!
You're welcome.  :)

In regard to soldering, the Pace series are well worth viewing (they're old, but the information is still relevant).

 
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Online tooki

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #160 on: July 31, 2018, 09:39:09 am »
^^^^ this. Best soldering tutorials out there. After watching those, then you can watch the ones from John. Gammell and eevblog about SMD soldering, when the time comes.
 

Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #161 on: July 31, 2018, 02:25:17 pm »
Looks like a very good video indeed.

Aside from basic storage, final stage for me is buying some logic chips / opamps / ICs / etc since that topic is vast unto itself.

So far, mostly tooki's recommendations (not sure how much of each to get, I'm guessing 3 or so in case I damage any):

UA741: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/UA741CP/296-11107-5-ND/382197

TL072: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/TL072IP/296-14997-5-ND/563039

NE5532: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/SA5532AP/296-16995-5-ND/656520

CD4017: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/CD4017BE/296-2037-5-ND/67253

555: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/SE555P/296-9684-5-ND/380221

IRLZ14PBF-ND: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/vishay-siliconix/IRLZ14PBF/IRLZ14PBF-ND/811728

IRLB8748PBF-ND: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/infineon-technologies/IRLB8748PBF/IRLB8748PBF-ND/2127672

Also looking into the following:

ATTiny85 or Cortex-M microcontrollers (I already own an Arduino as well but it always felt sluggish to me)
LM317 (voltage regulator)
LM318 (voltage regulator)
LM350 (voltage regulator)
LM339 (voltage comparator)
LM431 (shunt regulator)
74HC595 (shift register)

I've sort of put the whole IC thing off to the end because it's a bit daunting. I'm aware there are some "outdated" variants out there but I figure they're still worth having for learning purposes.

Apparently there are miniature loudspeakers (was looking at the kits for Make Electronics), crystals, potentiometers, thermistors as well. Will have to tack on missing parts from the Make Electronics shopping list, so to speak.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 02:36:17 pm by AnyNameWillDo »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #162 on: July 31, 2018, 02:48:25 pm »
Using Priority Mail for shipping from DigiKey, I get my toys in 3 days.  Even with my short attention span, this is fast enough that there is no reason to stock a bunch of components.  I have a large stock I will never use and, inevitably, what I have isn't what I need.

With Amazon, it's even quicker!  Sometimes I can get things the same day.

I would defer buying a lot of this stuff until I had a firm need.

I did buy the resistor and capacitor kits from Jameco.com but mostly just to get the cabinets.  These days I don't use through-hole components so the kit parts are used strictly for breadboarding.

https://www.jameco.com/z/00081832-540-Piece-1-4-Watt-5-Carbon-Film-Resistor-Component-Kit_81832.html
https://www.jameco.com/z/81859-520-PIECE-CERAMIC-DISC-CAPACITOR-COMPONENT-KIT_81859.html
https://www.jameco.com/z/81867-240-Piece-Radial-Capacitor-Component-Kit_81867.html

There are other capacitor kits but I haven't needed them.  I have had the kits for a very long time and I like having the cabinets with the pre-printed labels.  To me, the cost is unimportant.  I like having an organized assortment.
 
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Offline saturation

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #163 on: July 31, 2018, 07:36:05 pm »
If you're new to electronics, what to get can be daunting, but it is a catch 22, you don't know what to buy until you learn what what you bought does, which may or may not be what you want, once you do know about it.  For newbies, its more cost effective to a get a learning lab covering the basics of analog and digital electronics to make you an informed consumer.  With all ala cart gear and parts, you need a focused curricula on those parts to learn what they do, and it won't be as hand holding as the docs with these kits, which is optimized for its parts count for e.g.:

https://www.elenco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SC-750_REV-E-3.pdf

A kit offer this all in one, and Snap Circuits include adapters so you can use your laptop as a low end DMM, DSO, and FFT, so its all inclusive, nothing more to buy.  You'll expense $150 to get you going to know what to really do with your $850 at a later date or and sell the kit off on eBay, recoupe some of your expense.  As you move up, there are more "learning labs", such as pro kits, aka evaluation boards, like those for microcontrollers etc., so the idea of using all-in-one boards isn't just for kids:

 https://www.amazon.com/Elenco-Snap-Circuits-SC-750R-Student-Training-Program/dp/B000IXMP6Q/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_txt?ie=UTF8

Enjoy.


Best Wishes,

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Offline nanofrog

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #164 on: July 31, 2018, 08:06:27 pm »
Aside from basic storage, final stage for me is buying some logic chips / opamps / ICs / etc since that topic is vast unto itself.
FWIW, I find it better to order what you need and wait a few days rather than trying to keep a large component stock.

For the stuff you'd find rather common however, you could look into Tayda Electronics (i.e. Chinese made equivalents of jellybean parts such as 555 timers and such). They're based out of Thailand, so shipments tend to be rather slow; as in more than a month. But you can't beat their prices for small quantities IME either.

Just don't get crazy, as major distributors can get parts to you in a few days (Newark, Digikey, Mouser, Arrow, Allied, ... in no particular order).;

Besides, when ordering boards from Chinese sources, it tends to work out (i.e. order both the BOM from say US sources and boards via ePacket on the same day). So the wait time is minimal as both sources can have stuff to your door in under a week or so.  :-+

Keeps you from having to stockpile shit you won't ever need again (wasting precious lab/storage space). Not to say you shouldn't keep *some* stuff on hand, but don't get carried away. Plenty of threads as to what's best to keep on hand or not on this if you search. ;)
 

Online tooki

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #165 on: July 31, 2018, 08:12:54 pm »
How weird! Here in Switzerland, it’s the Chinese shipments (whether ePacket or not) that take 2-5 weeks, while Tayda has consistently arrived in under a week!!!
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #166 on: July 31, 2018, 08:30:21 pm »
How weird! Here in Switzerland, it’s the Chinese shipments (whether ePacket or not) that take 2-5 weeks, while Tayda has consistently arrived in under a week!!!
That's seriously weird IME.  :-// Though I suspect it's more to do with actual component availability than actual shipping times (i.e. your order calls for x of Y component they're out of, so they hold the entire order until Y component arrives to them).

Just a WAG, but in past threads, this seems to be the case based on other members' experiences.  :-// Can't prove this myself, but regardless, I've no issues with ordering from them. I can always watch TV or YT vids while I wait.  :o  :-DD
 

Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #167 on: July 31, 2018, 08:38:32 pm »
Tayda is taking about a week for me (ordered some stripboard there) -- Amazon is always a day or two but they're better for certain equipment rather than component parts. Meanwhile DigiKey has any part imaginable but there are so many variants of each piece that choosing among them is tricky. AliExpress/China/etc so.agonizingly.slow for me here in the States, and I'm much too impatient.

At least right now I'm not trying to get too specialized per se, trying to stock up on common jellybean parts/ICs and then trying to see which among the parts at DigiKey these correspond to.

tooki is going to kill me (I can see him going |O  :palm: :horse: :rant: :wtf: already) but I also tossed in some alligator clips. I know, I know, I know -- they suck and all, I just want to experience the suckage for myself and then better appreciate the minigrabbers. ;D Otherwise the mystery is going to eat at me.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 08:45:12 pm by AnyNameWillDo »
 
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Offline ez24

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #168 on: July 31, 2018, 08:40:22 pm »
Talking about kits and ATMini,  I found that kits from TronClub to be excellent

http://tronclub.com/

Their website sucks and email support sucks but I took a chance on their Advance course and it was on the ATMini.  Last year they only had 3 kits on it but there were many lessons.  The biggest surprise was the quality of the documentation, it was very very good.  I believe they hired someone to write it.  Best kit docs I have ever come across.  No PDFs and I think they changed the way they present it.  They try to protect the documentation, rightfully so.

http://forum.tronclub.com/index.php

Worth trying out a kit

Edit:  The kits are based on teaching theory, not building something.  All my "kits" were built on breadboards, no circuit boards.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 09:22:45 pm by ez24 »
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #169 on: July 31, 2018, 08:55:43 pm »
Speaking of component sources and speed, lately Arrow has been doing free overnight shipping. Their site search needs replacing, but otherwise, if they have it in stock then there's practically no waiting anymore. Pretty cool.
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Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #170 on: July 31, 2018, 09:26:29 pm »
Speaking of component sources and speed, lately Arrow has been doing free overnight shipping. Their site search needs replacing, but otherwise, if they have it in stock then there's practically no waiting anymore. Pretty cool.

I had forgotten about Arrow -- I may need to give them another shot. I had tried to find components there, but found their search feature to be virtually unusable (definitely needs replacing, as you say).
 

Offline Jwillis

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #171 on: August 02, 2018, 03:11:28 am »

.. it says 20 AWG has a max transmission of like 1.3 amps.


When I hear "transmission",  I think of 100s of feet.  Keep in mind that the current rating of good breadboards is 2 amps.  Even at 1 meter, the voltage drop at 2a is very small.  Try the calculator.

I had no trouble running 5a through 18 inch leads.  FYI the AN8008 leads could not.

If you going to run higher amps then a thicker wire might be more useful.   When I made up my leads, I made a lot of 16 ga with alligator clips.  Like someone else said, I have never used them.  Mini grabbers with 18 ga is what I use.


The maximum Amps for power transmission uses the 700 circular mils per amp rule. 5 amps over 20 gauge is only 8.5% the fusible rating for 20 gauge wire which is around 58.5 amps over 10 seconds. This is set as a standard for safety reasons and longevity of the wire shielding .Its not to say that you can't put more amps through a piece of wire . Wire is generally under rated so 10 amps is around 17% the fusible rating for 20 gauge wire.It will get warm but you could also risk shortening the life of the plastic shielding.
Length of the wire isn't really regarded as a factor for lengths under 100 ft. Most banana cables are between 12inches to 24 inches . I doubt  you'll find any 100ft banana cables.
 

Online tooki

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #172 on: August 02, 2018, 01:28:50 pm »
Meanwhile DigiKey has any part imaginable but there are so many variants of each piece that choosing among them is tricky.
You’ll get better at it with time. Part of it is learning how to read datasheets. (As someone who worked as a professional technical writer for years, I think I’m qualified to say that most datasheets suck in some way or another.) The datasheets (either explicitly, or by comparing several) will reveal the differences between component versions. This is something I find excruciatingly irritating and time-consuming, insofar as datasheets aren’t even remotely consistent in their presentation (even within a manufacturer!), sometimes hiding even critical differences as casual comments in the text, rather than in the spec tables. So you have to become expert at reading extremely carefully, and often at reading between the lines (e.g. if it says one version of it does X, then assume the others don’t). And sometimes, honestly, there’s no obvious way to know. (For example, I found that most resistor datasheets didn’t provide any indication of why you should choose this particular resistor model over the other 5 from the same manufacturer that have seemingly identical specs.)

Sometimes the difference is just how it’s shipped, like if it’s loose or taped for things like capacitors or transistors, or in tubes or not for DIP ICs. Resistors, for example, come both loose, taped (and rolled on a reel) and taped (and folded into a box) — and thus, if you’re ordering just 20 pieces, it’s irrelevant whether they cut them from a rolled tape or a boxed tape — it only matters if you want to buy the whole package. Sometimes the manufacturer has tweaked something inconsequential in the packaging (for example, to reflect a change in the company name, or if a product received an additional certification, despite needing no change in the product itself), but this also results in a new order code, and Digi-Key will have both, until the old stock has sold out.

The other thing is getting experienced with using the Digi-Key search, so you can narrow down to just the package type you want (by which I mean the format of the component, like DIP or surface-mount), as well as selecting normally-stocked only (eliminates tons of parts that are special-order only and irrelevant to the hobbyist due to large minimum quantities and lead time), and in-stock only if you need it now. (In addition to actual component parameters.) The quality of the search tool is, IMHO, a huge differentiator between vendors. Digi-Key and Mouser do pretty well, whereas others (like Conrad and Reichelt in Germany) are just awful. And either way, it takes practice using a given system.


tooki is going to kill me (I can see him going |O  :palm: :horse: :rant: :wtf: already) but I also tossed in some alligator clips. I know, I know, I know -- they suck and all, I just want to experience the suckage for myself and then better appreciate the minigrabbers. ;D Otherwise the mystery is going to eat at me.
Eh, I mean, you might use them eventually. I think they used to be a lot more important, back when electronics used much larger components, without PCBs, spaced far apart. Today’s stuff is just so much smaller that the alligators are just too bulky and aren’t designed for grabbing small things.
 
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Offline AnyNameWillDoTopic starter

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #173 on: August 02, 2018, 05:23:11 pm »
I'm getting a little more used to DigiKey and like it a lot.

And yeah the inconsistency in the data sheets is one of the main reasons I find them so painful. Like when I have 6 variants of something and I open all their sheets and each one is several pages in different formats, so I have to try to map and cross-reference which aspects are identical and which aren't, and so on.

However, DigiKey has a nice comparison tool that lets you hide common traits which I think is very helpful and at least provides some degree of cutting through the lack of standardization otherwise.
 

Offline rdl

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Re: My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?
« Reply #174 on: August 02, 2018, 10:01:29 pm »
That's exactly it. Even the minigrabbers are starting to seem big and clunky. I've been putting one or two of the smd size on my recent Mouser orders.

... I think they used to be a lot more important, back when electronics used much larger components, without PCBs, spaced far apart. Today’s stuff is just so much smaller that the alligators are just too bulky and aren’t designed for grabbing small things.
 
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