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Remembering what this section of the forum is for.
Posted by
Jonny
on 24 Sep, 2013 08:22
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Hi all.
I've not posted a lot myself, but when I do it's only fair I maintain some respect for for the original poster. Dave set this forum up for everyone and this section is exactly for what it is titled. "Beginners and newbies to electronics can ask questions here."
That said, I have seen plenty of responses that make fun of, ridicule or otherwise do nothing but likely make the original poster wonder why they even bothered to expect more from a group of intelligent and highly skilled individuals. Replies suggesting 'how dare you even post here without consulting google first' for example. Somehow I get the feeling that said individuals are insulted that there's some non-existent yet pre-conceived expectation they must waste precious minutes of their lives replying. In a place that has been set up for the sole purpose of offering help there are too many people turning away or mocking newbies off the bat.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Direct conversation with someone knowledgeable in a given field is worth a thousand minutes spent trying to find an answer among tonnes of literature on a given subject.
OK some people deserve a smart ass response when, say, they don't provide enough info to their problem and expect us to be almost psychic, but couldn't well all try and be a bit more supportive to the the newbies who are really trying to succeed and learn? If you don't want to participate then don't say anything at all. There's nobody forcing you to commit time and money here. It might seem like a trivial problem to you, it might have been answered time and time again in past posts, but it's still a new problem to that one person. For example if someone posted a basic circuit and asked "why is my resistor glowing bright orange" I would work through it and help them understand why rather than telling them to google ohms law and come back later when they've got something harder.
Beginners section is for just that
With respect
Jonathan
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#1 Reply
Posted by
Wytnucls
on 24 Sep, 2013 08:55
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Well said Jonny, totally agree with you.
If you are unable or unwilling to help, just stay away from the thread. Providing cryptic answers or referring posters to Google or Wikipedia searches only serve to frustrate and confuse posters and turn them away from this site. I don't think this is what Dave had in mind when he set up the Beginners section.
To be fair, most knowledgeable people try to help. Only a smattering of individuals have turned it into a sport to belittle newcomers in this section.
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#2 Reply
Posted by
Rascal
on 24 Sep, 2013 11:56
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Some people appear to want answers handed to them on a plate - without giving a thought to it themselves.
So googling, research, experiments and using the 'grey matter' should be first obvious choices.
I sometimes wonder how some people make it through life
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#3 Reply
Posted by
Psi
on 24 Sep, 2013 12:02
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i can't say i've noticed this happening much.
There is the occasional person who asks something silly and gets a silly answer, and occasional users that word their replies with a bit of attitude due to annoyance at lack of common sense in the OP.
Sadly we are never going to have a perfect system.
But it seems much less of an problem here than other forums of similar size.
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#4 Reply
Posted by
Wytnucls
on 24 Sep, 2013 12:22
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Some people appear to want answers handed to them on a plate - without giving a thought to it themselves.
So googling, research, experiments and using the 'grey matter' should be first obvious choices.
I sometimes wonder how some people make it through life
What's the problem with that? Their level of electronic knowledge may be minimal. Why labor through a mountain of information on the internet, if expert advice is available here at short notice.
When you seek medical advice for an ailment, your doctor doesn't tell you to research the nature of it at the library first.
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#5 Reply
Posted by
Skimask
on 24 Sep, 2013 12:24
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The doctor gets paid to know "everything" off the top of his/her head.
Anybody here getting any $$$?
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#6 Reply
Posted by
Wytnucls
on 24 Sep, 2013 12:31
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If you want to get paid for your help, set up your own business site.
Most doctors would still help you if you can't pay for medical advice.
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#7 Reply
Posted by
AndrejaKo
on 24 Sep, 2013 12:34
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@Skimask
Doctor's job is to provide medical advice and is getting payed for that. Is anyone here employed at the EEVblog forum to answer n00b questions? From what I can see, the answer is no, so there's no need to complain about lack of payment.
If you want money, why don't you go to a site where you can get some? There are numerous sites for electronics freelancers where you can get payed to solve an issue.
Finally, nobody is forcing anyone here to even take a look at newbie threads or to even go to the beginners forum. If you don't like the forum, avoid it and let it go on its course.
For example, there's the Class AB amp thread right now active. From what I can see, it's two pages of mostly fluff and users complaining that OP didn't do enough research. What's the point of that?
I tend to spend my time here in threads that are actually interesting to me and when I respond to someone's question, I do that because it's a pleasing activity to me. That pleasure is my payment. Same is true for other sites I visit.
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#8 Reply
Posted by
EEVblog
on 24 Sep, 2013 12:57
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I obviously don't read everything thread, so can you cite a recent example of where is happening?
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#9 Reply
Posted by
onlooker
on 24 Sep, 2013 13:09
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The doctor analogue does not really apply here. One goes to see a doctor is not because he wants to be a doctor or become knowledgeable in medicine.
But a beginner comes to this forum is likely because he want to learn some electronics knowledge. Then, learn or being told to learn to Google or do some preparation or research is part of the things he should be doing and listening.
Even in a class room situation, a teacher (being paid) would not like to answer questions from an unprepared student.
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#10 Reply
Posted by
komet
on 24 Sep, 2013 13:25
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But there also seems to be a lack of well-structured beginner teaching materials. As far as I can tell, web sites tend to go directly from "how to calculate an LED dropper resistor without actually mentioning Ohm's Law" to "Which one of these almost identical Arduino knockoffs should you waste your money on" without anything decent covering RC networks, basic transistor circuits and so on.
Of course I could be mistaken, having no need for such a course. But if there were a canonical place to send beginners to, along the lines of "dive into python" I'm sure I would have noticed.
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#11 Reply
Posted by
Wytnucls
on 24 Sep, 2013 13:30
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Not everybody wants to be an electronic engineer. They may not be aware of the pitfalls concerning their narrow band of interest. When they come here for help, they don't expect to be lectured about Google, but rather seek courteous advice or pointers to specific solutions.
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#12 Reply
Posted by
Wytnucls
on 24 Sep, 2013 13:41
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But there also seems to be a lack of well-structured beginner teaching materials. As far as I can tell, web sites tend to go directly from "how to calculate an LED dropper resistor without actually mentioning Ohm's Law" to "Which one of these almost identical Arduino knockoffs should you waste your money on" without anything decent covering RC networks, basic transistor circuits and so on.
Of course I could be mistaken, having no need for such a course. But if there were a canonical place to send beginners to, along the lines of "dive into python" I'm sure I would have noticed.
There are a few well structured sites for beginners like these two:
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/index.htmlhttp://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/They don't cover everything in depth, but are a good start for analogue circuits.
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#13 Reply
Posted by
komet
on 24 Sep, 2013 13:54
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http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/index.html
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/
Had a quick look. The information looks good, but I can still imagine beginners being put off by the somewhat formal presentation and an emphasis on calculation exercises instead of breadboarding and measuring. The second link, furthermore, gives the beginner no hint as to the order in which to learn the material. It seems to be simply sorted alphabetically. This is, of course, not to suggest that such sites do not have their valid place.
I am thinking that there ought to be something along the lines of the old Radio Shack 150-in-one kit, which was in fact a well structured electronics course for kids without once using the word "course", or "structure" or anything like that. Plus the amount of mileage they managed to get out of 3 transistors, a dozen resistors and capacitors each, a lamp and a speaker, and no multimeter, was astounding.
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#14 Reply
Posted by
Rascal
on 24 Sep, 2013 14:03
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Enough material exist on the internet for most people to at least familiarise themselves with the subject they are asking about.
If you need help repairing your 'Large Hadron Collider' it is probably worth finding out the basics of its operation, before expecting others to spend the time on your behalf.
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#15 Reply
Posted by
kizzap
on 24 Sep, 2013 14:10
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The only thing that bugs me with some of the questions here is that the OP genuinely seems to want someone to solve their problem for them, which I am sure most people would be happy to do-if they were being paid to.
One example that springs directly to mind is in
This Thread. Now the OP does decently explain what the final product should do, however they do NOT show that they have taken any steps towards finding out the solution at all. To top it off, it seems like it would make an EXTREMELY good question for a University Assignment question.
I did take the time to lay out some options of what I could think would provide a possible solution, However it really seemed like the OP didn't want to take the time to go read and understand the problem that he was asking us to solve.
I think there needs to be a blanket rule brought into effect in the beginner forum: All Questions asked must show that you have taken steps to understand the problem.
For example:
"How does device XYZ work?" or "Can someone show me how ABC connects to 123?" would be Bad.
"I understand that Chip XYZ does A, but what causes XYZ to do B?" or "I'm looking at using Chip XYZ, and don't understand what pin X does" would be better questions.
In effect, if it is something that could be Google'd, go Google it.
-kizzap
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#16 Reply
Posted by
c4757p
on 24 Sep, 2013 14:21
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Disclaimer: I have certainly had a few grumpy "this ain't no answer service and we're not your lackeys, piss off" moments. Occasionally, people
definitely earn that.
However... there are IMHO a very few people on here who almost
pride themselves on having a hair-triggered attitude that will turn hostile at the slightest hint of brattiness. The correct response when someone acts a bit overly entitled is to either A) tell them to stop, and be open to communicating with them in a civil manner if they shape up, or B) just go away and let someone else take the time to talk to them. It's never C) tell them to FOAD. It's OK to let someone know they're being an asshole, it's
not OK to wantonly fling unfounded insults at them because they were a bit demanding.
I'm not saying we need to mollycoddle people and hand them answers to everything. If you expect to get anywhere in interactions with other people, you need to be able to hold your own against criticism, and receive people's irritation when you've crossed a line. But can we please stop actively trying to chase off people we don't really care for?
Not everybody wants to be an electronic engineer. They may not be aware of the pitfalls concerning their narrow band of interest. When they come here for help, they don't expect to be lectured about Google, but rather seek courteous advice or pointers to specific solutions.
I have to disagree there. This is
not a public library, it's a place for people who share a common interest to socialize. When in Rome, do as the Romans do - and when on an electronics forum, at least muster up a modicum of interest in electronics. I'm not going to be outright hostile to the Google-impaired, but people
do need to learn to do a bit of their own research and be somewhat informed before asking for help.
If you want free answers without having to participate in developing your question properly, please ask somewhere else. I don't think I'm alone in saying people need to
interact rather than demanding answers.
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#17 Reply
Posted by
Wytnucls
on 24 Sep, 2013 14:38
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This is a beginner's section. There shouldn't be any constraints on what people can asked, else the traffic will die down. A positive interaction could prokove a genuine interest in electronics and long term membership.
If you find the requests inappropriate, move on and go interact with your buddies on more mature subjects. The thread will just fade away. There is no need to ridicule and offend new posters with know-it-all contempt.
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#18 Reply
Posted by
komet
on 24 Sep, 2013 14:45
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Surely a general rule might be that both sides ought to try to do their best.
Q1. I want to connect a very big LED to my Arduino. HELP URGENTLY
Q2. I want to connect a 5W LED to my Arduino. I have looked around on the Internet and discovered something called MOSFET, and I understand that I can connect its gate to the Arduino, but what do I do with the other terminals and how do I decide whether to use the 2N7002 or the IRF1324S? And do I need an optocoupler?
Surely we can agree that Q2 is reasonable and can be expected of a beginner, and also that his mistakes should be overlooked or gently explained.
A1. Connect the drain to ground (which means the minus terminal of your battery) and the source to the cathode of your LED. You do not need an optocoupler. The 2N7002 should be sufficient.
A2. Mentioning an optocoupler clearly indicates that you are mentally deficient and ought to have a guardian appointed. Fuck you, and all that you stand for, and the horse you rode in on, and all that the horse you rode in on stands for.
A3. Why didn't you google "MOSFET ARDUINO", you syphilitic popinjay? Doing so results in precisely the circuit you require. I know this because I have just done so. Nevertheless I will not just post the link here but instead take the opportunity to insult you. P.S. I have 40 years experience at NASA.
I see answers of type A2 and A3 with some regularity, and they do nothing to further anybody's knowledge. Not only that, they actually take more time to write than A1, leaving one to wonder if they don't derive their self-worth from their supposed superiority.
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#19 Reply
Posted by
c4757p
on 24 Sep, 2013 14:46
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There shouldn't be any constraints on what people can asked, else the traffic will die down. A positive interaction could prokove a genuine interest in electronics
Absolutely true. I don't really have any problem with people asking pretty much anything, no matter how naive.
My problem is when people ask a question, don't immediately get the answer they wanted, and get testy. I don't mind if people ask a question that they could have otherwise answered with a search, but I
do mind if they then sit there and demand an answer when they don't get one. This is a
forum, people are going to have discussions, and occasionally they'll talk about something related to your question without directly answering it.
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#20 Reply
Posted by
c4757p
on 24 Sep, 2013 14:49
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A2. Mentioning an optocoupler clearly indicates that you are mentally deficient and ought to have a guardian appointed. Fuck you, and all that you stand for, and the horse you rode in on, and all that the horse you rode in on stands for.
A3. Why didn't you google "MOSFET ARDUINO", you syphilitic popinjay? Doing so results in precisely the circuit you require. I know this because I have just done so. Nevertheless I will not just post the link here but instead take the opportunity to insult you. P.S. I have 40 years experience at NASA.
These definitely happen. But really, I think that most people here tend to be quite amenable to giving help when they encounter Q2. There are a few people who love to dive in with A2 and A3, but not really many or often.
(And you forgot "How dare you soil this forum with that foul word, Arduino!? Arduino is a ridiculous toy for simpletons and anybody who would so much as
look at an Arduino deserves no help at all!")
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#21 Reply
Posted by
MacAttak
on 24 Sep, 2013 15:22
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Beginner's forum is where many (most?) people here make their first posts - either to pose a question or to "test the waters" by answering a few first.
I think a lot of the seasoned veterans don't realize just how intimidating the rest of the forums are. The Beginner's area is the only safe haven until people have been around long enough to build their confidence up. People should get a pass on many things when they post in that area unless they abuse it.
And a true beginner who might not even know the right questions to pose to Google in the first place. Google won't come back for clarification when your question doesn't make sense to it.
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#22 Reply
Posted by
lapm
on 24 Sep, 2013 15:22
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I believe that biggest problem someone new to electronics has is they dont know what they dont know. They have some idea but no idea what to lookup from internet related to that idea.
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#23 Reply
Posted by
digsys
on 24 Sep, 2013 16:01
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I agree with the OP 100%. If you don't like what a newbie posts, STFU, and I do include the "rude or arrogant" first posts.
It can get quite frustrating reading smart-ass replies from supposedly "intelligent" long time members. No one died and
made you folks king. If the post is so bad and there's no-one around who'll at least attempt to help, it will go away silently.
Being a smart-ass only buys you "avoidance" points.
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#24 Reply
Posted by
BravoV
on 24 Sep, 2013 16:16
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Interesting thread, a case study, intrigued to hear comments on this example.
1. Suggesting to read it carefully post by post starting from this thread ->
Case 1.1 2. Now, next one related to previous one ->
Case 1.2Edit : Oh yeah, another fine example as well ->
Case 2 