Author Topic: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?  (Read 4303 times)

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Offline bonyzTopic starter

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What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« on: August 12, 2023, 01:27:54 am »


I couldn't enter the inductor data in LTspice so couldn't simulate it.

Why is there 3 parallel capacitors in the left? What if say the 10nF is cut?  I indeed destroy the 10nF when I tried to desolder the neighboring 0603 component and wonder how it would affect it. It is part of audio component.

The circuit is connected to 5 Volts USB at left. Is the VCCA the output or the input? What does it do?  Thank you!

« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 02:29:58 am by bonyz »
 

Online ataradov

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2023, 02:02:04 am »
Absolutely nothing will happen. 10 nF here would realistically do absolutely nothing anyway.
Alex
 

Online themadhippy

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2023, 02:15:02 am »
Quote
What if say the 10nF is cut?  I indeed destroy the 10nF when I tried to desolder the neighboring 0603 component and wonder how it would affect it. It is part of audio component.


Youve evicted sevral magical audio pixies so the audio quality is bound to be degraded
 
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Online xrunner

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2023, 02:19:48 am »
Why is there 3 parallel capacitors in the left?

It's obvious - because they wanted 10.11 uF.  :-DD
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Offline bonyzTopic starter

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2023, 02:28:45 am »
Absolutely nothing will happen. 10 nF here would realistically do absolutely nothing anyway.

What does circuit like this usually do? is the VCCA on top left the output or input?  If output, what does the 5V do to it? It makes the 5V more stable or noisefree?

If the 10nf has no purpose, why would they put it there??
 

Online ataradov

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2023, 02:47:00 am »
What does circuit like this usually do?
Filters the power supply. VCCA indicates that it is an analog supply, so extra filtering may be justified.

If the 10nf has no purpose, why would they put it there??
Cargo cult of capacitor placement. There are all sorts of ideal simulations that says that placing capacitors with decade values improves noise rejection. In practice with real capacitors it rarely does anything.

To be fair, if I were doing a schematic for something mildly analog and possibly sensitive, I'd also place extra components just to have placeholders on the board for future tuning if needed. But in all likelihood removing that specific capacitor will not affect operation of the circuit.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 02:49:13 am by ataradov »
Alex
 
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Offline golden_labels

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2023, 03:10:53 am »
It is nice, that they place a 10 nF capacitor next to one with 10 nF tolerance. Then put both of them, very precisely specified, beside a jellybean cap with tolerance likely in 2000 nF range. :)

And yes, I am aware of the possibility of making an attempt to improve response. Just it being coupled with that extremely precisely defined inductor and mixing very different levels of details makes me cringe and give me the vibes already mentioned above.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 03:19:27 am by golden_labels »
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Offline WimWalther

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2023, 03:20:21 am »
The small caps are present to bypass noise off of the Zener. FYI, zener noise is a sort of white noise hiss.

In tube circuits where zeners are used to fix grid voltages (equivalent to the base or gate of a transistor), we would commonly use a single polyester 470nF or 1uF for noise bypass.We played around with decade values and pi filters, but couldn't see any improvement.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2023, 03:21:41 am »
I suspect some things like this might be to make it easier to find if someone copied your design.
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2023, 03:54:16 am »
Back in the Olden Times, capacitors usually had wire leads, and thus significant lead inductance and low self-resonant frequencies.  Also, the larger-value capacitors had greater series resistance than the smaller-value ones.  This made some designs benefit from paralleling large and small capacitors.  This was more important at RF frequencies than audio, usually.

Now, with multilayer surface mount caps the series inductance, SRF, and ESR are often so good that they can safely be ignored.  Circuit requirements differ, but the caps are much better than they used to be.
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Offline bonyzTopic starter

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2023, 04:29:02 am »
The input is 5V DC from computer USB port. Does VCCA still output 5V DC? So the capacitors are used only if your laptop or computer is connected to AC adaptor? And the capacitors not necessary if laptop connected on battery?

It will only take a minute to enter this in LTSpice. I dont know how. Kindly somone this weekend enter it and upload the LTspice file here so we can see the output in all its glory. Thanks in advanced!
 

Online ataradov

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2023, 04:45:49 am »
Can you show full schematic?  Is there a chance  that "5V" is not always 5V and may be higher? If it is always 5V, then with 6.2 V Zener the output would be 5 V minus some loss on other components.

I'm not following your logic about AC adapter. The capacitors are needed for any power source, just not that specific precise combination. Missing one will not do anything bad.

How do you know it will take a minute if you don't know how? What do you expect to see there? LTSpice would provide ideal components and voltage sources, in order to check how the circuit behaves you need to manually add expected imperfections. And you obviously don't know that.

And what is your final goal here?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 04:49:17 am by ataradov »
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Offline Konkedout

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2023, 05:01:01 am »
Realistically, the 10 nF will not do much.  But in theory, smaller capacitors have less stray series inductance (assuming they are in smaller packages and placed more tightly on the PCB so do a better job of bypassing high frequencies.  But these days you can get 1 uF in an 0402 and I hate to work with anything smaller than an 0603.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2023, 05:17:33 am »
The small caps are present to bypass noise off of the Zener. FYI, zener noise is a sort of white noise hiss.

In tube circuits where zeners are used to fix grid voltages (equivalent to the base or gate of a transistor), we would commonly use a single polyester 470nF or 1uF for noise bypass.We played around with decade values and pi filters, but couldn't see any improvement.
You need to use a spectrum analyzer to "see" improvement. An improvement is going to be at -50...-60dBm level, you can't detect such levels with you ears.
For audio frequencies it will not do anything in terms of listening experience but for specific power supplies it may help supress oscillation.
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Offline bonyzTopic starter

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2023, 06:34:18 am »


It is part of the Arduino (see image below)...



The input can either be 3.3V or 5V. What is the purpose of the inductor and zener? If the 5V is pure 5V DC, then no purpose for them? Or could the purpose be to clean the 5V DC that could be somehow messed up by the Arduino crystal?

 

Online ataradov

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2023, 06:48:28 am »
You are really overthinking it.

The diode is there for a basic protection against over-voltage, it normally does nothing. Inductor may help with noise rejection, but realistically does nothing useful. And the capacitors are there because Arduino is over-engineered for no reason.

It is not like Arduino board needs high analog performance. It samples potentiometers most of the time, if that.

Also, what Arduino board is this? I don't remember classical U3 board having anything like that. If this is some special analog-oriented version, some of that stuff may make more sense.

But you still have not answered the question - is missing capacitor your only concern? If so, this is a huge waste of time, it does nothing, forget about it.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 06:56:24 am by ataradov »
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Offline bonyzTopic starter

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2023, 06:58:56 am »
You are really overthinking it.

The diode is there for a basic protection against over-voltage, it normally does nothing. Inductor may help with noise rejection, but realistically does nothing useful. And the capacitors are there because Arduino is over-engineered for no reason.

It is not like Arduino board needs high analog performance. It samples potentiometers most of the time, if that.

Also, what Arduino board is this? I don't remember classical U3 board having anything like that.

But the diode, inductor and capacitors are not powering up the Arduino. But the opposite, that is, the Arduino is powering up those parts to create VCCA. Is it not? And the VCCA is powering up the circuit below to produce V_REF.  Correct? Or did you mean VCCA is the input  and powering up the diode, inductor and capacitors which are powering up the Arduino??
 

Online ataradov

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2023, 07:06:06 am »
This connector is designed to provide external power. Obviously if VCCA is powered by some other source, then it would appear on the connector (assuming jumper is installed), but the selection 3.3V/5V won't make sense.

VCCA is internal power rail for the whole board, it can be powered by many sources. It can be provided though that connector, it may be provided by USB or whatever else is on the board.

VCCA powers the reference stuff.

Again, it is hard to comment without looking at a complete schematic. And you refuse to provide it.
Alex
 

Offline bonyzTopic starter

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2023, 08:44:44 am »
You are really overthinking it.

The diode is there for a basic protection against over-voltage, it normally does nothing. Inductor may help with noise rejection, but realistically does nothing useful. And the capacitors are there because Arduino is over-engineered for no reason.

It is not like Arduino board needs high analog performance. It samples potentiometers most of the time, if that.

Also, what Arduino board is this? I don't remember classical U3 board having anything like that. If this is some special analog-oriented version, some of that stuff may make more sense.

But you still have not answered the question - is missing capacitor your only concern? If so, this is a huge waste of time, it does nothing, forget about it.



It's an Arduino duo.. https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/arduino-comparison-guide/atmega328-boards

The main Arduino board is connected to USB via USB type A to USB type B connector.  So it's getting main power from computer. And the diode, inductor, capacitor on a separate board is getting power from the main Arduino connector and it is to produce clean VCCA to create VREF that will be used on a very sensitive instrumentation amplifier.  We trying to copy a section so I'll share about it after my partner gave approval. This is to avoid competition.

So if you will build a very low-noise sensitive instrumentation amplifier that needs VREF (powered by VCCA). You still won't need to be worried by that one missing 10nF capacitor? Or will it mess up the extremely low noise sensitive instrumentation amplifier?

« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 09:18:10 am by bonyz »
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2023, 09:02:32 am »
Likely nothing happens, but it could also start work better due to removal of a possible resonance generator circuit. The circuit is an excellent example of dangerous cargo cult engineering gone wrong.

While at it, you can also remove the 100nF. The only reason to use such smaller values would be the fact they come in smaller packages and can be placed closer to where low-ESL capacitance is needed. But with the 10uF part already in 0805 package, I don't think you can significantly improve the layout. By removing C25 and C26, you would make some room to move C27 closer to the load.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2023, 12:51:13 pm »
Avoid reading too much into superstition.  Parallel capacitors of graded values are a direct example of superstition in engineering.  There is some merit to the idea, but it's almost never executed correctly, and we can see from the types of associated components that it's utterly irrelevant to apply here.

Despite electronics being an eminently scientific field, the fact remains that most engineers will never have the time (or interest, frankly) to test every element of every design.  Some elements are calculated from reasonable design equations and related assumptions (and, occasionally, those assumptions are remembered correctly, and their applicability confirmed..), but many are also just left to straight up tradition -- or superstition.

Consider: What bypass capacitor is default -- why 0.1uF?  What pullup resistor is default -- why 10k?  Probably because someone once said so; or one got the idea that, because these show up most commonly, there's something special about them.  And so the meme reproduces, unchecked by critical analysis.

(As it turns out, bypasses and pullups are usually of such value that, anything in a wide range will do.  It would be nice to use maximum-value pull-ups to reduce current draw, or minimum-value bypasses to reduce component size/cost, but even these constraints are often so minor that they can be ignored, and default values chosen instead.)

And by "interest", there, I mean not just the engineer's care to go and test something, even when the means and opportunity to do so are available (which often are not, due to budget or time constraints of a project); but even just the sheer idea that there is something here that *can* be tested, let alone *how* to test it.

Case in point: to characterize bypass capacitors, we would ideally perform an impedance measurement with an RF bridge (typically the bridge comes as part of a vector network analyzer (VNA) instrument).  Install the passive components on the board (leaving nearby chips off), wire a transmission line into the respective chip(s)'s power pins (this must be done carefully; for example a coax cable must be installed with shield widely bonded to ground plane first; assuming a ground plane design was used on the PCB in the first place -- and the whole exercise is a whole hell of a lot less representative, let alone meaningful, if not!), perform whatever open/short/terminated calibration is necessary given the test conditions (short can be done on-board by shorting the coax, but open might be done before soldering the cable down, or by lifting the signal connection off the board momentarily), and then run the test.  A variety of tests and testing methods are possible just for the passive networks we use for power distribution, signal filtering and etc., let alone more complicated systems like device-level EMC, or software testing (beta testing, automated fuzzing, code analysis, etc...).  (Software is more-or-less a subset of electronics these days, but offers a depth and breadth of complexity far different from ordinary electronics.  Hence computer science (CS) being its own thing.)

And who would ever think to test a bypass cap (or array thereof)?  You almost never see it discussed.  Even though having reasonably clean, low-impedance voltage supplies is the underpinning of all modern electronics; so, you'd think there would be some interest there, or pressure to verify it.  But nah.  In fact, assumptions underpin a disturbing amount of engineering; and, despite that, real work can get done, so, I mean -- it works.  When it does, anyway.

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Offline Doctorandus_P

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2023, 01:00:15 pm »

The capacitors are part of a decoupling circuit. All, and especially digital IC's need decoupling capactors because each wire and PCB track is slightly inductive and the current peaks drawn from the supply voltage can cause dips in the power supply voltage to an IC otherwise. The location of such capacitors is also quite critical. They must always be as close as possible to the IC they need to decouple. The value of such capacitors is not very critical. For 30+ years it was standard to have a 100nF capacitor for each pair of power pins on each IC (an that value was also pretty much randomly chosen), and that was good enough. In these modern times switching frequencies of digital IC's have increased to many hundredths of MHz, and even several GHz, and other problems started to turn up. The problem was that even a 100nF in for example an 0805 package has a tiny bit of parasitic self inductance, and at some frequency that inductance starts to dominate. Physically smaller capacitors such as 0402 have a smaller parasitic inductance, and thus keep capacitive at higher frequencies. This started about 20 years ago when clock frequencies became high enough for this effect to become an issue. Back then physically small capacitors with a high capacitance were not available, and thus it became common to use a 100nF capacitor and a smaller capacitor in parallel. These effects are also very hard to measure and verify in a laboratory, (measurement equipment that most people could afford was much less advanced then it is now, and even now it's difficult to measure reliable at 500MHz or higher frequencies. Just probing is difficult even if you have the right equipment). So most designers just trusted on application notes and when this got engraved in their brain as a rule, they just kept on using it forever.

For old school technology such as an ATmega328 this is all quite over the top, and I agree with Siwastajas remark of "cargo cult engineering gone wrong".

The electrolytic capacitor has a somewhat different but quite similar function.  It is usually called a "buffer capacitor". and it works at lower fequencies. Normally it's use is to form a  filter with the power supply cable to the PCB, to ensure a more steady DC current to the PCB as a whole. In this circuit, the power is probably first going to the digital part, and then via the inductor to the analog power supply pin. The high ESR of the electrolytic is probably supposed to detune the Q of the LC filter and dampen possible oscillations in the inductor.

The parts are drawn close to each other (and far away from the IC) because they have a similar function and the designer of this schematic assumes that anyone reading the schematic is familiar with the use and placement constraints of these parts. Some designers have a practice to draw each and every decoupling capacitor close to the IC it is supposed to decouple on the schematic, but I find that practice counter productive. Most often there is not much place in that part of the schematic, and I find it distracting and it easily obfuscates other things happening right around an IC.

I usually draw all the decoupling capacitors in parallel and put them in some corner of the schematic usually near the power supply section, because they are related to the power distribution.
 

Online wraper

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2023, 01:05:21 pm »
The small caps are present to bypass noise off of the Zener. FYI, zener noise is a sort of white noise hiss.

In tube circuits where zeners are used to fix grid voltages (equivalent to the base or gate of a transistor), we would commonly use a single polyester 470nF or 1uF for noise bypass.We played around with decade values and pi filters, but couldn't see any improvement.
This zener is not even conducting here.
 
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Online ataradov

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2023, 03:49:45 pm »
It's an Arduino duo.. https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/arduino-comparison-guide/atmega328-boards
Your link contains no "Arduino duo". Can you link the exact schematic?

The main Arduino board is connected to USB via USB type A to USB type B connector.  So it's getting main power from computer. And the diode, inductor, capacitor on a separate board is getting power from the main Arduino connector and it is to produce clean VCCA to create VREF that will be used on a very sensitive instrumentation amplifier.  We trying to copy a section so I'll share about it after my partner gave approval. This is to avoid competition.
Ok, so this is schematic of your design, not Arduino? I'm confused.

So if you will build a very low-noise sensitive instrumentation amplifier that needs VREF (powered by VCCA). You still won't need to be worried by that one missing 10nF capacitor? Or will it mess up the extremely low noise sensitive instrumentation amplifier?
No, it won't do anything. And "extremely low noise sensitive" is not a quantitative measurement. What is so "extreme" about it? If it is really so extreme, then depending on circumstances, powering things from USB may not be a good idea in a first place.
Alex
 

Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: What if 10nF is cut in this circuit?
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2023, 04:41:17 pm »
What would be the difference between the 3 capacitors vs a single one of 10.11 MicroFarad?
 


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