EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN

[2N3055]

Indeed, I bought this box because of the handle which I wanted to reuse to repair the door handle on my car. Later on this machine turned out to be a low noise scope. After repairing the car, I can confirm the scope works fine fine without the handle.

Precious!!

[AVGresponding]

I’m sorry, but are you genuinely unaware how unhinged that all sounds?

Before I rebut your points, one by one, I'll remind you that engineers think about how things will fail.

Part of engineering is knowing how to put risk into perspective. This is a couple of thousand $ scope, not a piece of life-support equipment or spacecraft part.

Die-cast metal is used for countless products, almost always ones of above-average quality. From tripod castings, to KitchenAid mixers, to car engines, to all manner of electrical motor mounts, etc., to BBQs (like my Weber Q series, which is cast aluminum, with cast iron grills), to practically all high end camera bodies, field-use broadcast audio/video gear (stuff designed to take a spill and keep on working)… the list goes on and on!

Partly true, but completely irrelevant to the context. The highest quality ones will invariably be machined rather than cast, either from billet or forged blanks. In any case, heavy duty applications are pretty chunky, way more so than the weak point here, namely the handle pins. They will be exposed to shear forces when the scope is being carried; the examples you give are mostly exposed to impact (compression) forces, where the material is quite a bit stronger.

I'm sorry, but just... no. The examples I listed are ones where the best products use die-cast parts. Every pro-level photo camera uses a die-cast frame. (The only pro cameras I know of that use milled billets are the RED cinema cameras, which are likely produced in a fraction of the volume of Canon, Nikon, and Sony cameras, all of which use die-cast bodies.)

The best still photo camera tripods are from Manfrotto, Gitzo, etc., and they're all die-cast. The standard in video tripods is Vinten, and they're... die-cast.

There's no better stand mixer than KitchenAid, and they are die-cast. (And so are the competitors.)

Etc etc etc.

So your claim that the best products are "invariably" (your word!) made of billet or forged blanks is, plain and simply, false.



Edit: And just to be clear: I am not a machinist or metallurgist. I am, however, familiar with enough best-in-class products that ALL use die-cast bodies to know that your blanket statement cannot, and thus is not, true.

Perhaps I should have said "strongest". In any case the context is inappropriate. High-end cameras may well have die-cast frames, or frames made out of lettuce; I have no direct experience, but I rather suspect the delicate internals will be far more likely to break under impact than the body. And once again I will point out that this material is much more resistant to impact than to tension or bending.

As an industrial electrician, I've been in a few industrial environments, including industrial kitchens, where I've seen broken die-cast brackets on things like mixers. So, they aren't indestructible, by any means, even the big chunky ones on machines weighing a quarter of a ton and more.

SeanB makes a more useful point, though I'd argue we have no information as to whether spin moulding or static injection moulding is used here. Perhaps tautech could find out, if anyone actually cares. I don't; I've made my opinion clear, and to be clear it is a personal preference and opinion. Feel free to disagree, but don't expect me to change my mind unless you provide a properly reasoned argument.

[tautech]

SeanB makes a more useful point, though I'd argue we have no information as to whether spin moulding or static injection moulding is used here. Perhaps tautech could find out, if anyone actually cares. I don't; I've made my opinion clear, and to be clear it is a personal preference and opinion. Feel free to disagree, but don't expect me to change my mind unless you provide a properly reasoned argument.[/color][/font][/b]

The engineers that designed it do !
Of course they might have used a GRP if their tests proved it be robust enough but obviously it wasn't.
SDS2000X Plus while slightly larger is somewhat lighter and keeps the plastic handle.

SDS2000X HD is a new case design....more compact and in being so was also a blank canvas to get the carry handle design and bracketing right for this heavier instrument.

I remember needing to get a folding bail handle for a SDG for a school as a student thought they could just swing it shut but only succeeded in ripping the locking lugs off. 
The replacement cost just USD4....the cost of billing was more and as they had 70 Siglent units they got that for free.

[tooki]

Perhaps I should have said "strongest". In any case the context is inappropriate. High-end cameras may well have die-cast frames, or frames made out of lettuce; I have no direct experience, but I rather suspect the delicate internals will be far more likely to break under impact than the body. And once again I will point out that this material is much more resistant to impact than to tension or bending.

As an industrial electrician, I've been in a few industrial environments, including industrial kitchens, where I've seen broken die-cast brackets on things like mixers. So, they aren't indestructible, by any means, even the big chunky ones on machines weighing a quarter of a ton and more.

No, the context of a camera body is not “inappropriate”, it’s actually practically identical. What do you think the lens mount, tripod mount, flash hot shoe, and strap attachments are attached to? The body. They have to take significant tension and bending forces.

I’m not saying that die-cast is always better, or that it cannot fail. But your blanket statements that the “best” or “strongest” products are always made with billet or forged metal is simply untrue, and easily disproven by the list of examples I provided.

SeanB makes a more useful point, though I'd argue we have no information as to whether spin moulding or static injection moulding is used here. Perhaps tautech could find out, if anyone actually cares. I don't; I've made my opinion clear, and to be clear it is a personal preference and opinion. Feel free to disagree, but don't expect me to change my mind unless you provide a properly reasoned argument.[/color][/font][/b]

Providing counterexamples to an absolute statement is a properly reasoned argument.

Your personal beliefs, on the other hand, are not.

[coppice]

the friction between the handle pins and the tab sockets will cause some of the metal of the handle to wear and drop into the scope

How often do you move the scope in such manner ?
It must be a permanent moving to create such scenario..

Some people use instruments in mobile situations every day. They aren't all in nice comfy labs. That's when the cold metal handle can bite.

Again, this (and most of the scopes out there) is not instrument meant for those people..
Nor extreme temperature range, nor mil grade rugged nor portable.
And handle holders are outside the shield.. If there are going to be metal shavings, they are on the outside from electronics.

For portable rugged use, Siglent has it's version of Scope meter, including isolated channels.. expanded temperature range, IP51, rubberized...

Just how is one of those simple scope meters supposed to substitute for the scopes we are talking about? Just because you don't need to do sophisticated measurement on the move, don't assume everyone else is the same. Many people HAVE to use lab equipment on the move, as there are no rugged versions available. There are all sorts of protective cases made for these people, but you usually need to pull out the instruments for actual use.

[2N3055]

the friction between the handle pins and the tab sockets will cause some of the metal of the handle to wear and drop into the scope

How often do you move the scope in such manner ?
It must be a permanent moving to create such scenario..

Some people use instruments in mobile situations every day. They aren't all in nice comfy labs. That's when the cold metal handle can bite.

Again, this (and most of the scopes out there) is not instrument meant for those people..
Nor extreme temperature range, nor mil grade rugged nor portable.
And handle holders are outside the shield.. If there are going to be metal shavings, they are on the outside from electronics.

For portable rugged use, Siglent has it's version of Scope meter, including isolated channels.. expanded temperature range, IP51, rubberized...

Just how is one of those simple scope meters supposed to substitute for the scopes we are talking about? Just because you don't need to do sophisticated measurement on the move, don't assume everyone else is the same. Many people HAVE to use lab equipment on the move, as there are no rugged versions available. There are all sorts of protective cases made for these people, but you usually need to pull out the instruments for actual use.

I really don't understand what are you trying to say...

Again, this (and most of the scopes out there) is not instrument meant for those people..

If you want to abuse a piece of laboratory equipment by bringing into hostile environment it is your problem.
It is outside design envelope of the product. That is what I'm saying.

Saying engineers made a design mistake by not providing handle that can be comfortably used at -20°C is a completely irrelevant statement for a product that is not meant to be used at -20°C.

For a product designed for such low temperatures, that would be hard fail, I completely agree.

And new handheld  from Siglent  (and some others like R&S) are far from basic rudimentary Fluke scopemeter. My reference was to package factor not capabilities. SHS1000+ capabilities are in desktop scope class (same as R&S portable scopes). Including gorgeous screen..

[nctnico]

the friction between the handle pins and the tab sockets will cause some of the metal of the handle to wear and drop into the scope

How often do you move the scope in such manner ?
It must be a permanent moving to create such scenario..

Some people use instruments in mobile situations every day. They aren't all in nice comfy labs. That's when the cold metal handle can bite.

Again, this (and most of the scopes out there) is not instrument meant for those people..
Nor extreme temperature range, nor mil grade rugged nor portable.
And handle holders are outside the shield.. If there are going to be metal shavings, they are on the outside from electronics.

For portable rugged use, Siglent has it's version of Scope meter, including isolated channels.. expanded temperature range, IP51, rubberized...

Just how is one of those simple scope meters supposed to substitute for the scopes we are talking about? Just because you don't need to do sophisticated measurement on the move, don't assume everyone else is the same. Many people HAVE to use lab equipment on the move, as there are no rugged versions available. There are all sorts of protective cases made for these people, but you usually need to pull out the instruments for actual use.

I really don't understand what are you trying to say...

Again, this (and most of the scopes out there) is not instrument meant for those people..

If you want to abuse a piece of laboratory equipment by bringing into hostile environment it is your problem.
It is outside design envelope of the product. That is what I'm saying.

Nevertheless a product that will do the job is better than having no product at all. IMHO the example of a metal handle not being suitable for when it is cold, is a bit far fetched (you could put isolating tape / foam over the handle anyway) but the point in general is valid. I do agree with coppice that you won't be able to find rugged versions of test equipment that fullfill all testing needs.  For example: My Yokogawa DL708 (an 8 channel, 12 bit DSO) came in a super sturdy flight case with quite a bit of sticker residue on it indicating it has travelled a lot. Along with the accesoires is a sensor to do vibration testing. So obviously the oscilloscope has been used for testing something in the field.

[Martin72]

Saying engineers made a design mistake by not providing handle that can be comfortably used at -20°C is a completely irrelevant statement for a product that is not meant to be used at -20°C.

Operating temperature range is 0°C-50°C.
Plus I want to see anyone who didn´t wear gloves in general at -20°C or -10, or 0C°.
Otherwise wrap heating wire around the handle and connect a battery to it.
A nice teardown video but the people discuss about the handle..

SHS1000+ capabilities are in desktop scope class (same as R&S portable scopes). Including gorgeous screen..

Can confirm this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-x-model-siglent-handhelds-coming/msg4690073/#msg4690073

[baldurn]

So sad to see all the bandwidth about this fantastic scope being used up by a lame discussion about the handle. I never noticed the handle and I have still not bothered to check if mine would be plastic or metal. I used the handle exactly once to get it out of the box and up on my desk! I strongly suspect I am in the majority of users here.

Why not talk about how big an upgrade this scope is compared to the vanilla SDS2000X+ ? Yes I realize it is twice as expensive but it is actually also twice as nice. I love the touch screen and the new UI. It is quick and easy to use. There are new exciting math functions including FIR filters. There is a lot more to this thing than just 12 bit. Although the 12 bit thing is also very nice to work with.

From what I can tell the SDS6000 series might have the same touch screen and UI but not the SDS5000.

It was a lot of money for a hobby. But thanks to someone who might want to remain unnamed here, I was able to hack it and gain a 500 MHz 12 bit scope with a very nice look and feel. I think it was well worth it.

[tautech]

From what I can tell the SDS6000 series might have the same touch screen and UI but not the SDS5000.

FYI, in order of release, SDS5000X, SDS2000X Plus, SDS6000A and SDS2000X HD all have touch displays and use the same UI.
Only SDS6000A has a 12" display while the others use 10".

The main feature SDS2000X Plus does not share with its 3 brothers is the Fixed Memory and Fixed Sampling modes.

Of interest is SDS5000X is the first in the Siglent DSO range to have used this new UI followed by SDS2000X Plus however a firmware upgrade added Fixed Mem and Sampling features to SDS5000X long after its release but as yet there has been no such feature upgrade to SDS2000X Plus.
That if/when it comes will be a significant statement.

Size comparisons from other threads:
SDS2104X Pus, SDS5054X and SDS6204A on right.


SDS6204A vs SDS2354X HD


Another with SDS2000X Plus vs SDS2000X HD

[baldurn]

It appears that the glass display is new and only sds6000a also has glass?

[tautech]

It appears that the glass display is new and only sds6000a also has glass?

SDS2000X HD also.

This image shows the new display format.

[Ulrich.G]

Thanks for the video and showing all this technical details. Now I finally understood how the ADC interleaving is working. Its not interleaving between two physical separate ADCs, but between the two channels of one TI ADC12D1x00 ADC. So, when using all four (scope) channels, each channel has its own ADC channel, but with lower sample rate. Have to watch the SDS2000X-Plus teardown video again whether its similar with the 8bit ADCs there.

[tautech]

Thanks for the video and showing all this technical details. Now I finally understood how the ADC interleaving is working. Its not interleaving between two physical separate ADCs, but between the two channels of one TI ADC12D1x00 ADC. So, when using all four channels, each channel has its own ADC channel, but with lower sample rate. Have to watch the SDS2000X-Plus teardown video again whether its similar with the 8bit ADCs there.

I can save you the trouble:
Current Siglent 4ch DSO's with two exceptions* use dual ADC's, each with their own memory support.
When just one channel is used on each ADC full sampling rate and memory depth is available.

Exceptions:
SDS6000A uses a 5 GSa/s ADC for each channel.
SDS1104X-U uses just one 1 GSa/a ADC shared by all 4 channels.

[veegee]

If anyone can provide some more information on liberating the extra bandwidth, I would be very grateful.

[CChin254]

By any chance can you post photos of the backside of the main PCB? I am unable to find the voltage reference on the front side.

[Martin72]

@Dave:

Had you made hi-res pics of the board ?