EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Fungus]

Yes, they are mentioning the initial specifications: 80% energy left in discarded batteries, gear stops at 1.4V, Multiplies life of battery by 8.
They say they don't know if the claimed specs are true - with a grin - so it's not just repeating the fluff.

But ... they don't say they aren't true - which would be not repeating the fluff.

[Fungus]

You know where the real forefront of miniaturisation and efficiency in boost converters for AA Cells is?
LED Flashlights.

I agree.

Plus: These people have been making real products and competing with each other for years.

Zebralight for instance, build single-AA flashlights which are incredibly efficient and have fantastic buck/boost DC/DC converters which are miniaturised into the head of the tiny torches. Such as the SC5 AA, for instance:

Let me guess: You own that model. 

My EDC is a Fenix LD01 - same as Dave Jones. It's truly keyring size and runs on a single AAA battery - none of that bulky, high-current, AA cheating.

this one does it really well, with a super flat output "curve" or straight line, as the battery discharges right down to 0.7V.

Why is it much brighter for the first 17 minutes? That doesn't seem like "super flat" to me.

[Godzil]

And can anyone here understand French as it's all Greek to me.

I will watch this and make a transcript of this video (or try to) then translate it to english. I will do my best.

(Ouch 1hr of speak? hum I will see what I can do... )

[Fungus]

Battery chemistry. The chemical reactions will slow down as the ambient temperature drops, limiting current flow. Also when the cell is subjected to higher load current, what you're asking from the chemistry is for a lot of ions to find their way to electrodes really quickly, this is a physical process and it takes time for it to happen, hence the faster you want it to go, the less time it'll last and vice versa. This is also why cells can appear to recover significant capacity after a rest: the chemicals have had a chance to disperse more throughout the whole cell, so you don't have a huge build-up of 'spent' chemicals directly around each electrode.

But the only effect of all that is to change the ESR...?

[Fungus]

(Ouch 1hr of speak? hum I will see what I can do... )

There's only a couple of minutes talking about the Batteriser.

[EEVblog]

My EDC is a Fenix LD01 - same as Dave Jones. It's truly keyring size and runs on a single AAA battery - none of that bulky, high-current, AA cheating.

And it runs on the smell of an oily battery. It worked with the fully discharged AAA's I showed in a recent video. Of course it wouldn't last long, but it worked.

[Muttley Snickers]

I will watch this and make a transcript of this video (or try to) then translate it to english. I will do my best.

(Ouch 1hr of speak? hum I will see what I can do... )

i wouldn't be too fussed about it as Fungus and others have already indicated that they are just having a chat, the reason that I posted it was because I had no clue about the context of the conversation and it was not an easy one to find with only 10 views, also the name of the channel rang a bell but I could be mistaken.

Many Thanks

Muttley

[Godzil]

In fact there is only 4min so it should be quite quick

[LabSpokane]

I'll hit the 3 hour mark in 9 minutes and the thing is still going and the backlight hasn't even dimmed yet.  It's currently at 2.63v under load.  In their video, theirs supposedly completely died before it got to the 2 hour mark.  Their graph also shows a drop in current at about 1 hr 40 min, which I'd assume is the screen dimming at 2.6v.  That means they started the test with a not-so-fresh battery considering mine is about to hit 3 hours and still hasn't dimmed yet.   

EDIT: I forgot to mention, agilent's benchvue software limits datalogs to 1 hour each if you have the "free" version (paid one is $200).  Those cheap bastards.  I would've been better off using the same arduino that's controlling the servo to datalog to an SD card 

You get one 30 day trial of the full BenchVue that will permit unlimited logging time.

[LabSpokane]

morons.
The device will show it can no longer display the back-light or it will shut down. That is a fail for either mode. With the their (custom) boost converter it runs almost 6X longer. UL has verified it in their lab.
Ah yes, then the comeback is UL is paid so they do what you want. Really, are you all that retarded. They are in business to make money, they charge to test a product. I do not know of any labs that test a company product for free. You cannot buy the result.
I have dealt with UL many times over the course of my career in Silicon Valley. They are very rigid in terms of reporting results.

And, genius, if you use an off the shelf boost converter you will likely see a different result. That is not their product. You may only see 2 or 3X. Keep digging. They win, you lose. Do something constructive. Like little children stomping their feet.
If you want to find bad things you will. If you want to find good things, you will. Just constantly negative. You cannot stop them. They have investors that have done due diligence. Try an incandescent flashlight. Will it stay brighter longer with a highly efficient boost converter? very simple. try it.

UL testing is for safety and not to verify that it works as described: http://ul.com/ anyone who understands anything about this will see a mile of that it's a scam and fast turning into downright fraud. Wony don't you go back to your rich boss and tell him he is never going to get anywhere. Well actually he may and that is why he is paying all this money to get fake articles and reviews not to mention youtube thumbs down. The device is cheap, $2.50 and will be bought in mass (he hopes) nobody is going to take him to court over $2.50 but collectively he will make a lot of money out of this fraud. These days you can't get justice over teaching material that tells lies that is governed by a government body never mind a misleading product.

Just the claim that it must work because it was UL tested is utter fraud and show batterizer and your boss for the scammer and fraudster he is. No go back and tell him we all said "Hi" oh and tell him that an oscilloscope with a calibration signal on a video at the back is not going to fool anyone, really how pathetic, in fact the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.

UL actually does offer independent testing of manufacturer claims. What the question is - is what was the "test."  If UL ran a test, there should be a report. All Bob needs to do is upload the report.  I'm guessing we will never see it. There will only be minor excerpts at best.

The GPS claim is now disproved as well.

[ToreJSS]

Don`t know if anyone has discussed this before but I`ll ask anyway, will the batteriser drain power from the battery when it`s attached to it? So that the "whatever it`s attached to" will drain even when it`s off?

[samgab]

Quote from: Fungus on Today at 07:32:49 PM


>Quote from: samgab on Today at 06:58:11 PM
... Such as the SC5 AA, for instance:


Let me guess: You own that model. 

My EDC is a Fenix LD01 - same as Dave Jones. It's truly keyring size and runs on a single AAA battery - none of that bulky, high-current, AA cheating.


Quote from: samgab on Today at 06:58:11 PM
this one does it really well, with a super flat output "curve" or straight line, as the battery discharges right down to 0.7V.



Why is it much brighter for the first 17 minutes? That doesn't seem like "super flat" to me.

Hey, I don't have the SC5, although I do have an SC600 which runs on a single 18650, is also tiny, and puts out insane amounts of light, but that one didn't seem appropriate to this discussion about Alkaline AA batteries. 

As for the brighter initial output and then the flat line... that is by design... It drops to a lower mode of output when battery voltage reaches a certain point. But I was trying to highlight the regulation mainly. There's no curving down, it just runs as a straight line then drops off like a brick wall between modes.

When you look at the full review though, and see the output charts for Eneloops for instance, it stays at full output longer, although it still drops down to those same levels after a time, but spends less time running at the lower levels (It's probably to do with the internal resistance of the Alkaline cells compared to the NiMH cells. I don't think the Alkaline chemistry can sustain the output current required to keep the max output going long. I'd like to see some tailcap current measurements):


The LD01 is a neat little torch, again, amazing performance for a single AAA. My EDC keychain is a 4Sevens Preon0, same form factor. But I wasn't sure if they are fully regulated or if they use PWM. I think they're regulated too. I also have a Fenix LD20 which also has great regulation.

But yes, regulating AA and AAA cells to get steady performance and to use all of the energy in Alkaline cells is nothing new.


Also check this review
http://lygte-info.dk/review/Review%20Fenix%20LD01%20SS%202010%20UK.html
of the LD01.
Check out the regulation shown by a voltage sweep (you have to read it backward):

Notice how the current climbs way up to nearly 2 Amps as the cell voltage dips down to 1V! That's just to maintain a constant(ish) light output, and there is a max Power draw of nearly 2W!


This gives an idea of what the batteriser would have to do to keep a constant voltage output at 1.5V although it has to maintain it right down to 0.6V, not just 1V input voltage. (to stay on topic )

[jancumps]

Don`t know if anyone has discussed this before but I`ll ask anyway, will the batteriser drain power from the battery when it`s attached to it? So that the "whatever it`s attached to" will drain even when it`s off?

Yep, discussed

[Akra]

Thanks for the positiv feedback:)

@Fungus:

As stated by others one reason is the increase of the Ionic resistence and the speed of the reaction.

But also the lower Capacity for higher current for example is due to dependence of the Battery voltage of the ion concentration (nernst equation).
For example the concentration of the Zincions rapidly increase in the kathode space if you draw a high current.
The high Zinc concentration reduce the voltage and availible current.
Due to Fick's law th concentraion decrease over time and again you can withdraw a higher current and also the voltage will increase.
This is generally known as the recovery of Batteries.

And also diffusion of the ions to reduce the concentration is also very  temperature dependent.

[Muttley Snickers]

Interesting Stuff.


http://imgur.com/gallery/iRNGlpO

[TheAmmoniacal]

Don`t know if anyone has discussed this before but I`ll ask anyway, will the batteriser drain power from the battery when it`s attached to it? So that the "whatever it`s attached to" will drain even when it`s off?

As long as you don't have circuitry in place to disconnect the DC-DC converter from the power source, it will draw current (quiescent current) - this can be very low however, like below 20 µA. But it could be a problem in low-power devices, or if they batteriser is left on the battery for a long time - where it can cause deep discharge and potentially leakage. For a product that's as universal as this, I don't think it's possible to have circuitry that disconnects it.

Someone can correct me on this..

[jancumps]

Interesting Stuff.


http://imgur.com/gallery/iRNGlpO

Goes to show that he's neither David nor Brad.

[Fungus]

I bet you for one moment they never thought any EE would pay attention, nor would someone with a large following like Dave catch them in the act. They completely miscalculated that they would be called out to prove anything.

Damn those engineers, with their pesky facts... 

[Fungus]

Interesting Stuff.
http://imgur.com/gallery/iRNGlpO

Goes to show that he's neither David nor Brad.

Also that he is affiliated to Batteroo, and that he speaks for them - both of which they keep denying.

[amyk]

To Brad Jones/Dave Parish/whoever you are:

If you're as close to Batteriser as you claim, and have offered to send some to Dave for review, you must have access to them yourself? You should personally test them; it's not hard to do at all. Get some new batteries, put them in some battery-operated devices you have, and time how long it takes for the device to stop working completely. Then put the Batterisers on them, and see how much longer it lasts. 8 times? 80% more (1.8x)?

Instead, all you seem to be doing is blindly believing, and throwing insults at everyone who disagrees. Why are you so insistent in defending a product which no one else has, and one that you haven't even tested to see whether it works!?

If you feel inclined to now claim that you have, we'll know that you're lying, because otherwise it would be something a "fan" would've surely posted a video about - proof that it actually works! Instead all the videos your "fan page" have produced are marketing fluff and deception.

You don't have to trust us, or Batteriser. You can test and find the truth yourself.

[EEVblog]

A discussion has started on the website of the VC company backing Batteriser:
http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/

[samgab]

I know it's already been soundly debunked, but I just noticed this on the video of the "testing" of the Garmin golf GPS also.
Where they show a screenshot of the testing, it shows the current over time.
Although it fluctuates, the one that "dies" without the batteriser averages about 150-200mA for about 2 hours. so that's about 300-400mAh of capacity! So they are claiming that the GPS device only used 300-400mAh out of a brand new pair of duracells before becoming unusable? Nonsense.
And with the batteriser on, it ran for 10 hours again with an average current draw of about 150mA, so about 1500mAh drawn in that case before the device died. Still seems a little on the low side, if they're claiming to use ALL of the capacity in the cells.



Annoying that poor dupes are featuring it on golfing websites now: http://www.mrtopesgolf.com/blog/video-increase-battery-life-up-to-8x-in-golf-gps-rangefinders-with-batteriser/

[edy]

Interesting Stuff.


http://imgur.com/gallery/iRNGlpO

Goes to show that he's neither David nor Brad.

I don't understand, is Batteriser Fan Admin (whoever that is) trying to blackmail Batteroo by releasing email screen shots? Or is the guy just taking revenge for being silenced by Batteroo? Maybe somebody forgot to pay someone off. Or was it all a setup from the beginning by an anti-Batteriser proponent? Perhaps a disgruntled PR firm employee (or ex-employee now)?

[Simon]

Check out the new website claim: http://batteriser.com/ now they say that 80% is unused and that 20% gets used, that's 4 times loger and 5 times as long not 8 times, I think someones maths prowess is worse than mine.

[samgab]

I found this quote, from a PHD who actually seems to understand battery chemistry and underlying motivations, interesting:

"...All the marketing, videos and posts by the company in question still show that they do not have the necessary understanding of battery chemistry which is needed. If they interchangeably mistake voltage for power than this might sadly be enough to fool venture capitalists but it will not help their product at all.

Yes it is amazing that you can develop a boost converter with such a small footprint nowadays, but this does really not change the physics and chemistry which is responsible for a hugely nonlinear relationship between battery voltage and remaining energy in the battery. If you take a piece of copper and a piece of zinc and press it into a lemon, you get a battery with quite a high voltage, but there really is not much energy which could be extracted this way. The same is true for the chemistry of a regular AA battery: the voltage is determined by the chemistry and the energy stored is determined by the amount of remaining metal and chemicals.

Also, as Dave Jones brilliantly explained lately, the current you need to extract from the battery to deliver the same power from the boost converter, rises towards the very end of the lifetime of a battery, making the internal series resistance more and more working against you.

There is no significant energy left in an alkaline AA battery, once the voltage has dropped below 1 V, even though this is still 67% of the original voltage - but the anode metal is consumed at this point!

There is only one party here who really wants to make money from this story, and it's neither the battery manufacturers, nor is it Dave Jones.

Uwe Zimmermann,
PhD, Senior lecturer in electronics @ Uppsala University"

- http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-
Sorry if it's already been posted elsewhere, the comment threads are hard to keep track of.