EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[EEVblog]

Hey, here's a challenge.
Let's take bets on what off-the-shelf step-up dc-dc converter IC they've used in this thing?

They have stated many times that it's a custom ASIC, and they are supposed to have patent(s) on some of the tech in there.

[Kean]

I'm about to hit 7 hour mark and the GPS is still going in alkaline mode and the loaded voltage is at 2.49v.  They HAD to have stopped their test when the screen dimmed and called that "stopped working".

Nope, they claim very clearly "shutting down" with further clarification that the "GPS unit shuts down completely"

On the video, I don't think they did... they said it "stopped functioning"

They didn't claim the low battery cut off was activated, or that the batteries were depleted.

Check out the supposed UL report - it definitely states "Test was terminated at ... due to Garmin GPS shutting down."

Edit to add: interestingly the test protocol states "Test is terminated when one of the following occurs: either GPS unit shuts down completely or until the GPS displats a Low Battery Power message".
So the "UL" report can be clearly shown as false, as Batteroo's own video shows it displays a message, and does not shut down completely!   

[EEVblog]

I'm about to hit 7 hour mark and the GPS is still going in alkaline mode and the loaded voltage is at 2.49v.  They HAD to have stopped their test when the screen dimmed and called that "stopped working".

Nope, they claim very clearly "shutting down" with further clarification that the "GPS unit shuts down completely"

On the video, I don't think they did... they said it "stopped functioning"
They didn't claim the low battery cut off was activated, or that the batteries were depleted.

I was talking about the UL report.

[samgab]

Okay, so I'll concede that they claim they've done something custom or customised... I'm not convinced. I mean, if they had a track record of honesty, maybe I'd buy that. Time will tell. I'm really looking forward to some genuine real-world, technical testing and teardowns. 

[EEVblog]

Check out the supposed UL report - it definitely states "Test was terminated at ... due to Garmin GPS shutting down."
Edit to add: interestingly the test protocol states "Test is terminated when one of the following occurs: either GPS unit shuts down completely or until the GPS displats a Low Battery Power message".
So the "UL" report can be clearly shown as false, as Batteroo's own video shows it displays a message, and does not shut down completely!   

Good point.
The Batteriser would obviously just stop functioning with no warning (that's what boost converters like this do), but just the batteries should most certainly have triggered the low battery warning at some point and not just shut off.
So either someone wasn't watching, or something ain't right...

[AmmoJammo]

I'm about to hit 7 hour mark and the GPS is still going in alkaline mode and the loaded voltage is at 2.49v.  They HAD to have stopped their test when the screen dimmed and called that "stopped working".

Nope, they claim very clearly "shutting down" with further clarification that the "GPS unit shuts down completely"

On the video, I don't think they did... they said it "stopped functioning"
They didn't claim the low battery cut off was activated, or that the batteries were depleted.

I was talking about the UL report.

Ignore the "UL report", that wasn't prepared by butteriser 

[EEVblog]

Copy of the UL "report"
UL Project Number:4787059213

I could find no record of the UL "project number" using this search:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database

[AmmoJammo]

Copy of the UL "report"
UL Project Number:4787059213

I could find no record of the UL "project number" using this search:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database

The UL File Numbers appear to be an "E", followed by six digits.

They appear to currently be in the E476000 range at the moment (of course, the E could stand for something else, so there may be variations)

[Quarlo Klobrigney]

I was going to say before Dave spoke my words.
The "report" that was presented in the jpg doesen't look official, only a report by the BS marketing dept. Where was the screen capture taken form UL or the BS dept?

Copy of the UL "report"
UL Project Number:4787059213

I could find no record of the UL "project number" using this search:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database

[samgab]

I was going to say before Dave spoke my words.
The "report" that was presented in the jpg doesen't look official, only a report by the BS marketing dept. Where was the screen capture taken form UL or the BS dept?

Copy of the UL "report"
UL Project Number:4787059213

I could find no record of the UL "project number" using this search:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database

Aren't they opening themselves up to huge legal ramifications if they are falsifying a UL certification?

[firewalker]

Maybe UL tested their experiment setup. That is safe to use a board with a relay and a couple of DMMs.

Alexander.

[5ky]

Well, the stupid GPS is still going, so I think I'm going to go to bed.  Hopefully the logging software doesn't have any memory leaks or anything.

In batteriser's GPS test video, they got 10:12 runtime on duracell AA's. EDIT: that's USING batteriser--it only got 1:50 or so ALLEGEDLY using batteries without batteriser 

I'm currently at 11:36 on duracell AA's.   

The voltage is still at 2.40v at this moment so I'm sure it'll go for another hour at least.   

[firewalker]

Is the GPS locked on the satellites? I think their device was unable to lock on a signal.

Alexander.

[Quarlo Klobrigney]

"Aren't they opening themselves up to huge legal ramifications if they are falsifying a UL certification?"
Yes depending who the company/corporation is, and location. Good luck with these jokers.
In my past experience, UL just doesn't do anything quickly, i.e. on a piece of plywood.

[AmmoJammo]

Well, the stupid GPS is still going, so I think I'm going to go to bed.  Hopefully the logging software doesn't have any memory leaks or anything.

In batteriser's GPS test video, they got 10:12 runtime on duracell AA's. EDIT: that's USING batteriser--it only got 1:50 or so ALLEGEDLY using batteries without batteriser 

I'm currently at 11:36 on duracell AA's.   

The voltage is still at 2.40v at this moment so I'm sure it'll go for another hour at least.   

Assume 10:12 VS 12:30...

That's a 20% decrease in run time.... you mean, making the power source 20% less efficient results in a 20% shorter run time? who would have thought! 

[samgab]

Well, the stupid GPS is still going, so I think I'm going to go to bed.  Hopefully the logging software doesn't have any memory leaks or anything.

In batteriser's GPS test video, they got 10:12 runtime on duracell AA's. EDIT: that's USING batteriser--it only got 1:50 or so ALLEGEDLY using batteries without batteriser 

I'm currently at 11:36 on duracell AA's.   

The voltage is still at 2.40v at this moment so I'm sure it'll go for another hour at least.   

Classic! So not only have you debunked their "2 hours without batteriser, 6 times longer with batteriser" claim, you've actually proven that a Garmin G3 GPS actually runs significantly longer WITHOUT the batteriser product. Good work! Now that fact needs publicity!

[Quarlo Klobrigney]

Albert Einstein:
“Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.”

[Kean]

I found the comment by Bob Roohparvar on IGG about the custom IC - it was in relation to a future rechargeable battery model.
(ignore the highlight, that was just the search term I used after expanding all the comments)

He says customized IC, not custom.
My guess is that they just want a bare die, which is not standard and thus 'customized'.

My thinking is the customised version for rechargeables would just add an UVLO to avoid excessive discharge.  A relatively small change, but could take time to get fabbed if they hadn't thought of it in advance of the questions on IGG.  If they're using an off the shelf device with UVLO already (e.g. from TI, Linear, etc), they may be able to request a custom trimmed part if they place a large enough order.

Rather than bare die, they'd likely be using some sort of chip-scale package which are quite common now and very low profile.

[firewalker]

5ky, yu are testing Approach G3, right? I think they were testing Approach G5. G5 has a bigger screen with bigger resolution.

Alexander.

[samgab]

5ky, yu are testing Approach G3, right? I think they were testing Approach G5. G5 has a bigger screen with bigger resolution.

Nope, look at their "UL Report". They clearly say it's the G3 that they are testing.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg747370/#msg747370

[AmmoJammo]

5ky, yu are testing Approach G3, right? I think they were testing Approach G5. G5 has a bigger screen with bigger resolution.

Alexander.

I'm certain they were using a G3, this is a comparison pic of the two:

[TheAmmoniacal]

5ky, yu are testing Approach G3, right? I think they were testing Approach G5. G5 has a bigger screen with bigger resolution.

Alexander.

Definitely not a G5. The Approach they use in the video has a slot at the bottom for attaching a carrying strap. The G5 does not.

[firewalker]

Yep, you are right. I also located the message to the firmware of G3.



Alexander.

[EEVblog]

Nope, look at their "UL Report". They clearly say it's the G3 that they are testing.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg747370/#msg747370

Ah, so it does. Garmin Approach G3 is fully confirmed.

[LabSpokane]

Every performance claim by Batteroo has now been completely destroyed. Care to start making some retractions there Bob?