EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Fungus]

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.

You know what else produces large current spikes? Writing data to SD cards...

Maybe it's better not to deliberately fool the camera's battery-voltage sensor. 

[Luminax]

Ugh... somewhere in between watching Dave's video and twittering and general gallivanting around... somehow that synnergy guy video came up... I think I spent 2-3 minutes and already I felt my brain draining from my ears 

How can a person be so blind? but then again He Who Shall Not Be Named is in the same boat 

[daveake]

Recorded in the expectation that at least 1 of these gets deleted ...

[FrankBuss]

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.

This needs to be tested, but I think it could be a problem, because Ysjoelfir measured about 500 mV voltage drop when switching on a 0.5 A load and 750 mV for 1 A:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667

[PeterL]

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.
Anyway, this is still twice the price of a re-branded Eneloop battery. Totally uneconomical.

You can put a sleeve around the battery, but the ESR is still there. The ESR restricts the maximum power a battery can give. It is discussed in this thread, try search maximum power theorem.

From what I have seen in the test thread here on the forum, I have a feeling the camera will do worse with a batteriser.

I never had problems with (non LSD)reachargeables in my Powershot (IS2, 12x zoom) btw. It were the disposables that it didn't like.
Some battery makers also have special alkaline's that are optimized for these higher currents.

[EEVblog]

This needs to be tested, but I think it could be a problem, because Ysjoelfir measured about 500 mV voltage drop when switching on a 0.5 A load and 750 mV for 1 A:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667

If that's the case then it completely debunks Batteroo's own (in)famous Snail video, where their big proof that we were all wrong and didn't know what we were talking about and why you can get 800% etc, was that products draw big current spikes and that causes dropouts due to the ESR. Now here is their own product causing the dropout
 

[EEVblog]

You can put a sleeve around the battery, but the ESR is still there. The ESR restricts the maximum power a battery can give. It is discussed in this thread, try search maximum power theorem.
From what I have seen in the test thread here on the forum, I have a feeling the camera will do worse with a batteriser.

It will, unless is has large output capacitance to handle the spike, which it doesn't. The battery SR dos not magically vanish. Which is why they didn't put the Batterisers in the camera in their (in)famous Snail video.

[PeterL]

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.

This needs to be tested, but I think it could be a problem, because Ysjoelfir measured about 500 mV voltage drop when switching on a 0.5 A load and 750 mV for 1 A:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667

I'll try to dig up my powershot (which is probably not the same as the one NANDBlog is talking about), and do some current waveform measurements.

[twice11]

I'll try to dig up my powershot (which is probably not the same as the one NANDBlog is talking about), and do some current waveform measurements.

I own a 2006 DSLR (The Samsung GX-1L, a rebranded Pentax *istDL2), which uses 4xAA battery and works quite well on Eneloops. The manufacturer actually recommends Ni-MH, specifies primary lithium cells as also working, and explicitly warns against using Alkaline batteries. The service manual specifies current consumption at the DC jack in various operating conditions at 5.6V input voltage. Worst case: Recharging flash while image processing or saving. In that case, the expected current draw is 2.7 amps. Let's hope the AA batterizer (backed by a quality AA battery) has a higher drive capability than the AAA batterizer that was significantly dropping at 1 amp.

[madires]

Wow! The Batteroo sleeves are even worse than what I have expected. A total fail! Considering Batteroo's claims we can assume safely that this whole business is a scam.

[amspire]

I hadn't realised, but Batteroo was actually awarded their patent in October 2016 (9,461,399 B2). I thought the applications were still pending.

[SeanB]

Looks like Julian found a product which theoretically could benefit from Batteriser (but I am sure the batteries won't fit):



It shuts down at 1.35v!

See excerpts 2:45-3:09 and 25:05-25:35

Yes, but a boost converter will be both cheaper, better and easy to fit in the camera housing, and also will work better as the batteries age, simply because you can get a larger capacitor on input and output to handle the current spikes.

[drussell]

Wow...  That sounds like an RF burn!

I wouldn't normally expect an RF burn until up above at least 10 MHz, however I had never considered the consequences of squeezing an RF source between my thumb and finger before.  Even at 1.5v and 1.2MHz it sounds like it is enough!   

I've zapped myself with RF several times over the years and left burn marks but I can't recall what frequencies any of them would have been at the moment.

[drussell]

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.

You know what else produces large current spikes? Writing data to SD cards...

Maybe it's better not to deliberately fool the camera's battery-voltage sensor. 

Indeed....  This was discussed several times before specifically for cameras.

Using a BatteriserBatteroo Sleeve is a surefire way to guarantee SD card data corruption!  Not just "eventually" but somewhere between "likely" and "guaranteed."  The camera needs to know how much battery juice is left to be sure it can safely encode and write an image!  Circumventing this intentional shutdown safety mechanism is just plain dumb.

Plus, most people don't have a clue how to use something like PhotoRec, so they'll be plenty pissed when they think all their photos on the card are "gone forever" and reformat their SD card, even though they are almost always fully recoverable.

[BoomBrush]

Does anybody know the short circuit current that the batteriser can output?

I looked in the batteroo testing topic and couldn't find anybody posting it. Maybe I'm just blind.

Interesting thought: What happens if you put a battery in backwards?

[Blocco]

Listen up Batteroo, I have it, your new marketing slogan and this time the claim is supported by the facts.....

"Nothing extends battery life better than Batteroo"

 

[bktemp]

Wow...  That sounds like an RF burn!

I wouldn't normally expect an RF burn until up above at least 10 MHz, however I had never considered the consequences of squeezing an RF source between my thumb and finger before.  Even at 1.5v and 1.2MHz it sounds like it is enough!   

I doubt it was an RF burn. All RF burns I experienced were at >100V. I have never heard of an RF burn caused by touching a microcontontroller running at a couple of MHz.
My guess would is, the thin metal sheet of the Batteriser shorted the battery and got extermely hot at the point wherere the metal touched the battery.

[mc172]

I've had quite a few RF burns from as little as 1 Watt. 5 Watts (which is around 16 VRMS into 50 ) at around 100 MHz hurts enough to make you let go before you can realise what's happening. I've had one at about 300 W (again at approx. 100 MHz) and I definitely won't be being a twat like that again. It was a bit like a firework going off in my hand and part of me was definitely slightly past medium rare. 300 W into 50 is 122.5 VRMS, so if you mention RF burns at over 100 V in plural you're either a complete idiot or .

Can't comment on anything around 2-3 MHz as I don't ever do anything down there at considerable power.

[Hensingler]

My guess would is, the thin metal sheet of the Batteriser shorted the battery and got extermely hot at the point wherere the metal touched the battery.

My guess is the inductor shorts to the top of the battery (only a thin layer of encapsulation to be missing or damaged) which bypasses the inductor. The chip trying to run with a few nH of inductance gets very hot (possibly killing itself) and that heat goes through the board to the sprung terminal the prongs of which produced the burn spots. 

Posted that indiegogo comment and suggested this a few pages ago https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1099788/#msg1099788

[bktemp]

300 W into 50 is 122.5 VRMS, so if you mention RF burns at over 100 V in plural you're either a complete idiot or .

Not every RF source is designed for 50ohms output load, you can easily have a RF source of several 100V limited to a couple of 100mW. Even that power is enough to cause RF burns, because the contact area is typically very small, therefore the power density high.
But you need enough voltage to penetrate the skin.

[drussell]

Listen up Batteroo, I have it, your new marketing slogan and this time the claim is supported by the facts.....

"Nothing extends battery life better than Batteroo"

 

Oh, my...  That is priceless...  You win the beer award of the day week year on that one, for sure!   

Don't give them any bright ideas, though...  LOL

[rollatorwieltje]

The Batteroo Bunny; it keeps on going... flat.

[amspire]

My guess would is, the thin metal sheet of the Batteriser shorted the battery and got extermely hot at the point wherere the metal touched the battery.

My guess is the inductor shorts to the top of the battery (only a thin layer of encapsulation to be missing or damaged) which bypasses the inductor. ....

Could be, but I am still intrigued by the possibility of latch-up. It would happen when inserting the last of multiple batteries and it would drag the battery down to 1.2v. If the IC gets hot enough, it would eventually short.

To be a possibity, there is a simple test. Does the Batteriser without a battery look like a diode when the positive is applied to the negative contact and the negative is applied to the prongs? If you get a 0.6v drop, then latch-up is possible. If it is open or a 0.2v drop, it is probably not possible.

[StillTrying]

I think the shorts are due to the metal sleaves sleeves touching each other, despite their space age coating. On the photos the thickness of the coating looks to be about zero.

[tszaboo]

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.

This needs to be tested, but I think it could be a problem, because Ysjoelfir measured about 500 mV voltage drop when switching on a 0.5 A load and 750 mV for 1 A:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667

I dont think that is a fair test. Quite obviously the batteriser doesnt have huge output capacitor (which might be a design flaw), and it is possible to create huge current spikes, where the loop is not going to respond fast enough. Most  realistic loads are not going to have those high A/s load swings.

About the burns: Isnt the metal running along the battery connected to one of the electrodes? So basically you can create a short with two batteries with batterisers in a hand (serious design flaw)?

Using a BatteriserBatteroo Sleeve is a surefire way to guarantee SD card data corruption!  Not just "eventually" but somewhere between "likely" and "guaranteed."  The camera needs to know how much battery juice is left to be sure it can safely encode and write an image!  Circumventing this intentional shutdown safety mechanism is just plain dumb.

I dont know. Writing SD happens very infrequently. Also, there is no data to support your claim, nor could be, since there was no time to make tests.
Also, you must realize, I am not for batteriser, quite the opposite. But I also dont like when people come up with bad reasons supporting their claims. 2 solid reason is better than 2 solid and 1 bogus/made up. The toy train must be already very convincing.

as far as i remember the camera in question is a powershot S5