EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[edavid]

Has Dave got three AAA Batteryiseroos?  I'd happily pay £25 quid for one of these cameras so he could repeat the test.

The Camera uses AA not AAA.  I have used AAs in Panasonic, Nikon, and Canon cameras for years.  The test results really do not seem real to me.  Flashes suck the power and I do not think any of my cameras could have taken 50 flashes let alone 400.  So this is one test I hope someone someday can duplicate.

Even very simple cameras throttle the flash power, so the number of flashes you get depends on the distance and reflectivity of the subject.

There's no way to duplicate the test unless you can duplicate what the camera was facing 

[daveake]

Even very simple cameras throttle the flash power, so the number of flashes you get depends on the distance and reflectivity of the subject.

Indeed, and with 2 cameras they cannot have the same view.  A test like this can only be valid using one camera in a fixed location.

[drussell]

I posted a comment to the video, let's see how long it survives

No, you probably didn't.    Or, at least, it is doubtful that it is actually public.  Have you tried viewing the comments  while not logged in as you?  From a private window?

They have their videos set to require comment moderation so the comments aren't going to show up publicly until Batteroo Inc. approves them.  I find it rather doubtful that will ever happen to anything even remotely resembling a negative comment. 

Additional note: the quiescent current of the Batteroo sleeve is about 14 uA. With normal use, e.g. 8 hours per day, the battery in an Apple keyboard might last a month without the Batteroo sleeve (reported by some users on Amazon). This means the quiescent current of the Batteroo sleeve alone will reduce the battery life time significantly.

Wow, that is terrible battery life.  Is it a battery-sucking-Bluetooth keyboard?

The ancient Logitech Y-RJ21 which I traded back from a customer about 10 years ago because the sleep mode in the accompanying mouse quit working, is in constant daily use on one of my main computers gets a couple years of use out of a pair of AAs that have already been blasted in a high-drain device. 

It currently has a pair of Duracell Procells in it with an install-by date of Jan 2016 that I would have used in my old HP PhotoSmart 315 when that was my main camera.  I probably first blasted them in that camera close to 10 years ago...  I still have some of those in the drawer of "use in low discharge application" drawer of AAs..  LOL

That camera really sucks back the juice...  Very, very old...  I never used the LCD to take photos on alkalines...  WAY too much draw.  Without the LCD on, though, just using the viewfinder, I once took more than 1,000 shots at full resolution in one day without killing a set during a birthday party celebration trip for three friends who happen to have the same birthday.  Even viewed a few on the LCD in the wee hours of the morning before that set of cells finally gave up the ghost.  (Well, wouldn't power the camera any more, anyway... They might be in the keyboard right now for all I know.  )

The camera is rated 6.0v, 2.0A DC.  It is right here in front of me.  Still a good beater camera for times that I wouldn't want to take out the Canon.  The 315 has been though a lot, slid down and dropped off a multi-story roof during a multi-week off-the-grid cabin construction project, smashed, bashed and beaten in every imaginable way, but it still works perfectly.  (Amazing!)  When I first bought it, I was just waiting for anything over 1 MP to be semi-affordable...  I saw them drop the sale price from $499 to $399, and bought it.  It is a 1920x1080 and was well worth it for the all the use I put it through!

I doubt a Batteroo Sleeve would be able to do anything for it, though...  They would probably just give up and burst into flames the first time you try to power up! 

[drussell]

The Camera uses AA not AAA.

Nope...  The Vivitar in question uses three AAAs.

[ez24]

The Camera uses AA not AAA.

Nope...  The Vivitar in question uses three AAAs.

Crap  my apologies 

I did a test with my Canon A810 that uses 2-AAs.  I took flash pictures every 20 sec for 1 1/2 hours = 270 flashes.  I got real sore and my dogs cried so I stopped before the batteries did.  The batteries never died.  The space in the camera is about 1mm, but I know the sleeves would not work because the battery door is first closed then has to slide to lock.  The hooks on the sleeves would do damage.

I think Batteroo found a product that works and made a good video.  I think this will allow them to get more funding to make a better product and I think they should be able to redesign the hooks problem.  If it every hits Amazon then it may crash.

I do wish someone can duplicate the test but it will be expensive and hard.  I will contribute to the cause.   Maybe someone could start a Kickstarter on this.  I think there are enough people here to raise a couple hundred to do this (if there is a volunteer to build the pressers)

[Halcyon]

Roohparvar should be using Batterisers in all his own appliances, cameras and remote controls! What better way to show off your product by putting money where your mouth is?

Of course someone will probably need to send him a bulk lot of spare batteries since he'll be chewing threw them much faster. 

[Hensingler]

I do wish someone can duplicate the test but it will be expensive and hard.

The camera is such a piece of crap I don't think it worth bothering. I would rather see a test on a better camera where if it manages to supply the peak currents the batteriseroo will show around -15% battery life.

[ez24]

The camera is such a piece of crap I don't think it worth bothering. I would rather see a test on a better camera where if it manages to supply the peak currents the batteriseroo will show around -15% battery life.

I think it would be hard to find a "better" camera.  I do not think the bats will fit a "better" camera.

[drussell]

The camera is such a piece of crap I don't think it worth bothering. I would rather see a test on a better camera where if it manages to supply the peak currents the batteriseroo will show around -15% battery life.

Noooo...  Nooooo...  No, no, no.... 

We must debunk whatever hooey Batteroo throws at us....

...being the "un-knowing" non-PHD engineers, scientists, hobbyists, enthusiasts, dramatic/performing/fine arts folks which we most assuredly all are...   

[Brumby]

If Batteroo throws up a target - if at all possible, we HAVE to take a shot at it!

[ez24]

We must debunk whatever hooey Batteroo throws at us....

I agree and wonder if they did this when Dave went on vacation ?

No one can replicate the test until they can get 3 AAA Bats and 2 cameras and 2 pressers and 2 monkeys (they were in the picture and might have an influence on the flash time).

I would help support any member that could come up with the pressers.  The monkeys and cameras seem easy to get.

I tried taking pictures with my Canon A810 for 1 1/2 hours every 20 seconds (10 seconds did not work) and it was painful mentally and physically so a mechanical presser is necessary.

[AmmoJammo]

I tried taking pictures with my Canon A810 for 1 1/2 hours every 20 seconds (10 seconds did not work) and it was painful mentally and physically so a mechanical presser is necessary.

This is what I had done... it needed the longer press time for the auto focus, then shutter.



But the ebay boost converters I had couldn't supply enough current to even charge the flash capacitor...

[Nerull]

Reviews of that camera are universally bad, and a lot of them describe battery issues, including low battery warnings on brand new batteries. "Worst camera ever made"

Good luck getting a good test with it.

The good news is it's probably too dumb to do flash exposure evaluation.

If anyone gets a hold of AAs, I've got a cheap chinese manual hot-shoe flash I don't need anymore. No way I'd put these things in my speedlite.

It should be simple to make a AAA battery holder and wire it up to the flash as well, but then it won't be unmodified.

[drussell]

No one can replicate the test until they can get 3 AAA Bats and 2 cameras and 2 pressers and 2 monkeys (they were in the picture and might have an influence on the flash time).

I would help support any member that could come up with the pressers.  The monkeys and cameras seem easy to get.

The test setup will never be, and does not need to be identical to the setup in the Batteroo video, (it could never be identical) as long as it is configured in a scientifically valid manner...  Indeed, it doesn't even require two cameras for side-by-side comparison, though that does easily make for great video... 

Multiple runs with one camera, properly orchestrated, is fully valid, even if not quite as theatrical.  You just need to be shooting identical scenes, from identical distances, with identical settings on the camera, etc. etc.  VERIFIABLY, PROPERLY DOCUMENTED

Reviews of that camera are universally bad, and a lot of them describe battery issues, including low battery warnings on brand new batteries. "Worst camera ever made"

Good luck getting a good test with it.

The good news is it's probably too dumb to do flash exposure evaluation.

Indeed!

Though, saying you won't be able to get a "good test with it" makes little sense...

As a product, it is what it is.. Regardless of how poorly designed it is, we can test it properly!

Edit:  I would not be surprised if they have been searching far and wide for products that are reported to have battery life issues, trying to find those one-off examples that they can use to try to deceive the unsuspecting public into believing their grandiose hype.

My local version of this little doodad is pegged off the scale!  -->   

[Luminax]

From henceforth until that video can be debunked, I propose we switch to calling the contraption "Vivitaroo" 

I can imagine Bob and Franky going on stage in the 'magician stage' set up to a fanfare, announcing "BEHOLD! 5 YEARS OF OUR RESEARCH PROVEN ON THIS HIGHLY SOPHISTICATED MODERN DEVICE!"

[kalleboo]

The tracking shows my AAs just entered the country, so they should arrive in a day or two.

I think Daves were sent in the same batch so his should arrive soon as well.

[amyk]

This is probably never going to happen but what would be really funny is a test of alkaline+batteriser vs. lion+buck KentLi PH7s in this camera. I suspect the latter is going to win.

[EEVblog]

We must debunk whatever hooey Batteroo throws at us....

I agree and wonder if they did this when Dave went on vacation ?

What have I missed?
Oh, ok, I see it now. Camera test on their Facebook.
They won't tell you that you'll get the same increase or better with rechargeables 

[sakujo7]

They won't tell you that you'll get the same increase or better with rechargeables 

They also won't tell you how many cameras they went through before they finally found one where the batteriseroo helped.

[EEVblog]

Finally definitive proof, direct from Batteroo.
Vivitar digital cameras 3 x AAA batteries.
Set up to take photos in forced flash mode. One pic every 10 seconds.
The claim is 172 pics without sleeve, 616 with.
edit to add: The flash does seem to stop working at 172 pics, but the camera looks like it is still taking pictures up to about 420.

They have chosen the Flash time to give them the result they want. No one does it like that, continuous flash every 10 seconds, that's BS. The is compleetly non real-world and battery chemistry factors will dominate.
There is a CIPA standard for this for a reason:
http://www.cipa.jp/std/documents/e/DC-002_e.pdf
30 seconds per shot, flash every other shot, with a power down every 10th shot.

[Luminax]

Finally definitive proof, direct from Batteroo.
Vivitar digital cameras 3 x AAA batteries.
Set up to take photos in forced flash mode. One pic every 10 seconds.
The claim is 172 pics without sleeve, 616 with.
edit to add: The flash does seem to stop working at 172 pics, but the camera looks like it is still taking pictures up to about 420.

They have chosen the Flash time to give them the result they want. No one does it like that, continuous flash every 10 seconds, that's BS. The is compleetly non real-world and battery chemistry factors will dominate.
There is a CIPA standard for this for a reason:
http://www.cipa.jp/std/documents/e/DC-002_e.pdf
30 seconds per shot, flash every other shot, with a power down every 10th shot.

Because professional photographer takes a picture every 10 seconds, right? they can get the right picture 'frame' they wanted under 30 seconds, get the correct camera tilt, get the correct focus, get the feel for the correct lighting

... Batteroo, 800% more blurry pictures 

[Twoflower]

Reviews of that camera are universally bad, and a lot of them describe battery issues, including low battery warnings on brand new batteries. "Worst camera ever made"
[...]

(emphasis done by me)

This is actually the trick. This camera seem ho have a very high switch off level. I wouldn't wonder if accus won't work at all in that cam. While actually accus + Batterdingens actually might work as they boost the 1.2V to 1.5V (with all the downsides of course). Said that I wouldn't wonder if Batteroo actually will do this test and make a big story out of it.

[ez24]

Because professional photographer takes a picture every 10 seconds, right?
... Batteroo, 800% more blurry pictures 

I once took pictures for an art gallery.  They had a contest each month and placed all the paintings on the floor leaning against the wall.  Then a judge would pick the winners, which with all the classes came to about 25.  Once they finished judging there were people hanging the pictures and they were in a hurry.  I HAD about 10 secs to take each picture.  I tried alkaline, NiMh, and NiCad batteries and only NiCad batteries could recycle the flash in time to keep up with them.  And I was a volunteer !  I had to correct for everything in Photoshop.  After a few months I got to the point it did not bother me.  BUT I am not a professional.  But I imagine there are professionals needing to take many rapid flash pictures.

Also I think with modeling rapid flashes are needed to get a lot of pictures.

[samgab]

Either way, a protog assuredly won't be using a Vivitar S126, or Alkaline cells for that matter.

[Domagoj T]

Professional flashes, with good batteries, have no problem with charging in 10 seconds, even when at full power, which is rarely needed. At 1/16 or 1/32 power, which is much more common, even the cheap Chinese ones have no issues with multiple sub second recycles, at least the two Yongnuos I have, and all the pricey Canon Speedlights I've ever used.

As for the Butteroo camera test, sure, they monkeyed it, it's just a matter of time before someone with both Batterizer and that camera model repeats the test and sees what's the issue, but I wouldn't criticize the 10 second interval. Be honest Dave, the CIPA standard you posted would be a lot more complicated to set up and automate. It would require at least three servos per camera, which would introduce unnecessary clutter in the test jig and would not be transparent to the viewer.
Yes, the test needs to be repeated and the camera examined for the shut down voltage, since there is obviously something horribly wrong with the design, but as I see it, the 10 second interval is the least important issue.

Model photography (fashion and stuff) in studio doesn't rely on battery operated flashes. They are supplied by mains.

That being said, I have several cameras, among which an otherwise quite decent Sony point and shoot that is, however, notoriously battery hungry, even when powered off. I also have an old Konica Minolta one I bought at a flee market for about $3 that works just fine. Hopefully the Batteroos I ordered a week ago will arrive soon. I still haven't received tracking details or shipping confirmation, but I'm giving them some slack due to all the holidays.