EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[dr_frost_dk]

Another batteroo video, this time with the weirdest product tested?

[jc101]

Is it me or does the one with the batterisers show rapidly changing readings compared to the one without?
If they are looking at the same test wheel should they not read the same?

[BMF]

Is it me or does the one with the batterisers show rapidly changing readings compared to the one without?
If they are looking at the same test wheel should they not read the same?

That's a dumb video for them to make. They should really warn against using them in a medical device. And that voice, she's sounds sarcastic the whole video.   

[samgab]

Wow are they still at it? Honestly, who gives a crap anymore? 

[Blocco]

Here's the manual:

http://www.amperorblog.com/doc-lib/CMS50DL.pdf

The makers claim 24 hours of battery life with continuous use which is roughly what Batteroo reported so it would probably run for years on a pair of AAA cells with normal intermittent use, although I don't know how people "normally" use these things I can't imagine anyone using it for more than a few minutes a day.

Taking into account the cost of AAA cells compared to Batteroo sleeves, even if the run time is doubled, it's difficult to see how anyone could save any money by using the sleeves in this device.

e.g. 2x Batteroo sleeves cost $5.00 and 2x alkaline AAA cells cost $0.5

If we assume the oximeter is used for 4 minutes per day, the cells should last for 1 year without Batteroo. Therefore, the device costs just $5 per decade to run. Even if fitting Batteroo sleeves were to double the run time they would also double the cost so there can be no savings to be made for at least 20 years.

[EEVblog]

I hadn't noticed the history of the Wikipedia page, seems to be quite the editing war, with at one point a user by the name of "LakshmiNarasimhan batteriser" editing it.
This guy:


Clearly he's involved with Batteroo
https://twitter.com/lakshmiusa

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batteroo_Boost&offset=&limit=500&action=history

[Cerebus]

Is it me or does the one with the batterisers show rapidly changing readings compared to the one without?
If they are looking at the same test wheel should they not read the same?

That's a dumb video for them to make. They should really warn against using them in a medical device. And that voice, she's sounds sarcastic the whole video.

Worse still, an SpO₂ of around 40%, as shown on both meters, would only be found on a corpse or soon-to-be corpse - indicating that they have done a terrible job of simulating a patient. They don't seem to understand that these pulse oximeters work by comparing the ratio of transmission of infrared and visible red light. An SpO₂ of 95-100% is normal, 90% or less is hypoxia, and an SpO₂ of 80% or less requires urgent medical intervention to prevent organ damage.

[amspire]

Here's the manual:

http://www.amperorblog.com/doc-lib/CMS50DL.pdf

The makers claim 24 hours of battery life with continuous use which is roughly what Batteroo reported so it would probably run for years on a pair of AAA cells with normal intermittent use, although I don't know how people "normally" use these things I can't imagine anyone using it for more than a few minutes a day.

Taking into account the cost of AAA cells compared to Batteroo sleeves, even if the run time is doubled, it's difficult to see how anyone could save any money by using the sleeves in this device.

e.g. 2x Batteroo sleeves cost $5.00 and 2x alkaline AAA cells cost $0.5

If we assume the oximeter is used for 4 minutes per day, the cells should last for 1 year without Batteroo. Therefore, the device costs just $5 per decade to run. Even if fitting Batteroo sleeves were to double the run time they would also double the cost so there can be no savings to be made for at least 20 years.

There are two ways people use these oximeters. Either a quick test that uses so little power that you wouldn't bother with a Batteriser, or long logging tests - perhaps overnight while you are sleeping. Perhaps to see if you have signs of Sleep Apnoea or if you are recovering from Pnuemonia, to check your O₂ levels are OK. If you are taking the trouble to do a long test, you want to know the meter will last the night. If it is just one test, you will put in fresh batteries. If it is a regular test, the easiest solution is to put in freshly charged NiMH cells for each test.

The problem with using a Batteroo is that you never know when it will stop working. Also, at the current these meters are using, the Batteriser will be cycling in and out of sleep mode, so you can get 200mV p-p noise from each battery that might ruin the accuracy of the meter.

[FrankBuss]

Is it me or does the one with the batterisers show rapidly changing readings compared to the one without?
If they are looking at the same test wheel should they not read the same?

It shows even no pulse reading at all with the sleeves for some time, if you watch from 1:32. But this might be because it is positioned differently. As with their previous tests, they make the same fundamental mistake to use two different units instead of the same unit and in the same place. On purpose? Maybe the device without the sleeve has an additional parallel resistor?

[Muttley Snickers]

I hadn't noticed the history of the Wikipedia page, seems to be quite the editing war, with at one point a user by the name of "LakshmiNarasimhan batteriser" editing it.

Clearly he's involved with Batteroo

That was the guy who gave the Batteriser fan boy club a kick in the arse for stating stuff they shouldn't, that was way back and they deleted the imgur image shortly after discovery as always.

Thread Reference. 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg746756/#msg746756

 

[bktemp]

It shows even no pulse reading at all with the sleeves for some time, if you watch from 1:32. But this might be because it is positioned differently. As with their previous tests, they make the same fundamental mistake to use two different units instead of the same unit and in the same place. On purpose? Maybe the device without the sleeve has an additional parallel resistor?

It is hard to tell from the video. The datasheet specifies <25mA current draw, at least 24h of operation so 27h is plausible. But they skipped a lot of images: They talk about 5000 frames, but only show about 500 in the video. They could have faked the result (by removing many frames of the first part but keeping them at the second part with only the Batteriser one working or by replacing the batteries at some time during the test) or the result could be totally legit because of a high turn off threshold of the device.
They must be working really hard to find devices that benefit from the Batteriser.

[kalleboo]

I doubt they're faking the tests - if they were they'd pick more common devices to test instead some obscure crap.

[Blocco]

The datasheet gives a supply voltage range of 2.6 - 3.6V so it looks like the cut-off voltage may be high for this device.

I don't think the test is faked, they have just chosen another very obscure device that most people have never heard of and which, in normal use i.e. not running continuously until the battery dies, may not achieve any economic benefit from having the Batteroo sleeves fitted.

To quote the manual:

"The Fingertip Pulse Oximeter is .......... intended for the spot-check of oxygensaturation of arterial hemoglobin (SpO2) and the pulse rate of adult and pediatric patients........This device is not intended for continuous monitoring."

[amspire]

I tested a similar color and form-factor Oxymeter, but different display. Low battery indicator comes on at 2.43 volts and it shuts down at 2.36V. AS the voltage drops, the current increases but when it reaches 2.4V the current starts to drop. So there is some kind of compensation for battery voltage in the devices - either a switching regulator, or it increases the LED on time as the voltage drops. Below 2.4V, this regulation starts to give up. Current was about 14mA at 3V and this drops to 10mA if you are logging and the display blanks.

If all these devices are based on the same chipset, then they probably all shut down between 2.3V and 2.4V. There is no doubt they have targeted a device with a high shutdown voltage. Based on the video and the 14mA current of my device, only about 380mAh is extracted from the plain batteries.

Now the problem with the Batteroo-powered device is that just before it shutdown, the low-battery indicator was off - so it shut down without a warning. Without the Batteroo, the low battery warning came on a long time before it shutdown - as it is designed to do.

Is it better to get longer life, or to be warned before the device shuts down? I would prefer the warning.

[bktemp]

Now the problem with the Batteroo-powered device is that just before it shutdown, the low-battery indicator was off - so it shut down without a warning. Without the Batteroo, the low battery warning came on a long time before it shutdown - as it is designed to do.

If you watch closely, the low battery indicator comes first on at 1:58, but flickers only for a few frames (maybe because it is flashing but the video shows only 1 image every 200s, so it probably misses the flashing indicator in most frames), then it flashes again at 2:02 and then at 2:06. It shuts down at 2:10.
If the flashes are there but only not visible in the video, the low batt indicator works much better than expected when using the Batterieser: It is on for 12s, at 30fps and 200s per frame that is about 20h before shutting down.
Comparing this to the discharge curve of a Batteriser measured by some members of this forum, 20h is a very long period for being in the low batt region before shutting down.

[Zbig]

I hadn't noticed the history of the Wikipedia page, seems to be quite the editing war, with at one point a user by the name of "LakshmiNarasimhan batteriser" editing it.
This guy:


Clearly he's involved with Batteroo
https://twitter.com/lakshmiusa

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batteroo_Boost&offset=&limit=500&action=history

I wonder how would the guys behind Plex software appreciate being associated with this crap.

[bitwelder]

I hadn't noticed the history of the Wikipedia page, seems to be quite the editing war, with at one point a user by the name of "LakshmiNarasimhan batteriser" editing it.
This guy:


Clearly he's involved with Batteroo
https://twitter.com/lakshmiusa

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batteroo_Boost&offset=&limit=500&action=history

I wonder how would the guys behind Plex software appreciate being associated with this crap.

I was also wondering why if somebody is planning to show up and talk to the whole youtube-sphere about batteries would choose to wear a Plex t-shirt. 

[ez24]

I was also wondering why if somebody is planning to show up and talk to the whole youtube-sphere about batteries would choose to wear a Plex t-shirt. 

Someone needs to send him a Batteroo T shirt.

Fill in the ...

[dr_frost_dk]

They just re-uploaded the apple keyboard video, still the worst "proof" video

[rrinker]

 It may be BS like all the rest, but at least on the keyboard demo it looks (to the uniformed) like it actually works. Unlike the flickering light which doesn't take any sort of analysis to see is a total fail.

[kalleboo]

They just re-uploaded the apple keyboard video, still the worst "proof" video

Funny enough I just bought an Apple wireless keyboard and they come with internal li-ion batteries now...

[StillTrying]

I'm afraid I've been carefully recharging primary batteries for decades, of course they can only take a gentle partial charge.

About a month ago my LCD clock's display became noticeably faint, and a day later it was completely blank!
So I took the single AA out, a cheapo alkaline, measured it at 0.9V and gave it a small charge of 60mA for 25 minutes. That was enough to bring it's no load voltage up to 1.44V. I could tell by the LCD's contrast that it's not going off anytime soon but today, a month later, I measured it anyway still at 1.40V!

[djos]

Oh look, a team of researches is using a boost converter properly, don't tell the batterpoo guys or they'll decide to pivot into the patent troll business! 

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/gut-juice-could-power-the-next-generation-of-health-gadgets/

Swapping citric acid for gut acid, the researchers created their own tiny Zn-Cu cells using cheap, commercially available, bio-compatible materials. The first device was for continuous, wireless temperature monitoring. It consisted of a microcontroller that included a radio frequency transmitter and a temperature sensor (among other things) and an "energy-harvesting boost-converter integrated circuit," which "took energy directly from the Zn–Cu cell at low voltage (0.1–0.2 V) and boosted it onto a temporary storage capacitor at a higher voltage (2.2–3.3 V) for use by the circuits.”

[Brumby]

Oh look, a team of researches is using a boost converter properly, don't tell the batterpoo guys or they'll decide to pivot into the patent troll business! 

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/gut-juice-could-power-the-next-generation-of-health-gadgets/

Swapping citric acid for gut acid, the researchers created their own tiny Zn-Cu cells using cheap, commercially available, bio-compatible materials. The first device was for continuous, wireless temperature monitoring. It consisted of a microcontroller that included a radio frequency transmitter and a temperature sensor (among other things) and an "energy-harvesting boost-converter integrated circuit," which "took energy directly from the Zn–Cu cell at low voltage (0.1–0.2 V) and boosted it onto a temporary storage capacitor at a higher voltage (2.2–3.3 V) for use by the circuits.”

Not sure how I feel about the electrochemical process that would be going on in my gut.

But then, I suppose this is still on topic .... boost converter solutions that are hard to swallow.

[djos]

But then, I suppose this is still on topic .... boost converter solutions that are hard to swallow.