EEVblog 1508 - We FINALLY Got Alkaline Battery LEAKAGE!

[golden_labels]

A funny thing: while checking information, I realized I missed the obvious.

Can’t it be addressed? I do not say it can’t. But it’s not the seal. It’s chemistry that has to be changed. Why did those evil battery manufacturers not come up with a solution? As it happens… they did over 50 years ago. The new, better alkaline batteries not only not release hydrogen, while operated within specs. The designers were so smart that one of the anodes absorbs hydrogen! And those are widely available nowadays. There is one obstacle in adoption, though. There is that person, who refuses to use them, because their poorly designed TV remote will not work. The better, non-leaking alkaline batteries are NiMH cells.

free_electron: please do not get me wrong. I resonate with your will to change things. I am an activist since I was 15. But an action, that is really intended to change something, should serve some purpose. Not just releasing anger. And in this case I can’t really see that purpose.

I was genuinely not realizing that NiMH are the answer to the hydrogen generation problem, until I started verifying if I got everything right in my previous post. And even without NiMH making such claims moot, I did not see what would the class action mean regarding the leaks themselves. What’s the goal? Withdrawing of alkalines from the market altogether? Making them prone to rupturing violently? Enforcing some form of a strong warranty, which — given that’s a dying technology — would simply become an obligatory insurance for which consumers must pay?

As for the class action you mentioned, unfortunately we do not know the important details. Judge’s explanation seems reasonable to me, given what I expect were the arguments of the plaintiff. Yes, I consider the claims on Duracell’s package to be misleading marketing bullshit. Not deviating from typical stuff, though. But “I consider” is not an argument in court.

[CatalinaWOW]

A funny thing: while checking information, I realized I missed the obvious.

Can’t it be addressed? I do not say it can’t. But it’s not the seal. It’s chemistry that has to be changed. Why did those evil battery manufacturers not come up with a solution? As it happens… they did over 50 years ago. The new, better alkaline batteries not only not release hydrogen, while operated within specs. The designers were so smart that one of the anodes absorbs hydrogen! And those are widely available nowadays. There is one obstacle in adoption, though. There is that person, who refuses to use them, because their poorly designed TV remote will not work. The better, non-leaking alkaline batteries are NiMH cells.

free_electron: please do not get me wrong. I resonate with your will to change things. I am an activist since I was 15. But an action, that is really intended to change something, should serve some purpose. Not just releasing anger. And in this case I can’t really see that purpose.

I was genuinely not realizing that NiMH are the answer to the hydrogen generation problem, until I started verifying if I got everything right in my previous post. And even without NiMH making such claims moot, I did not see what would the class action mean regarding the leaks themselves. What’s the goal? Withdrawing of alkalines from the market altogether? Making them prone to rupturing violently? Enforcing some form of a strong warranty, which — given that’s a dying technology — would simply become an obligatory insurance for which consumers must pay?

As for the class action you mentioned, unfortunately we do not know the important details. Judge’s explanation seems reasonable to me, given what I expect were the arguments of the plaintiff. Yes, I consider the claims on Duracell’s package to be misleading marketing bullshit. Not deviating from typical stuff, though. But “I consider” is not an argument in court.

I don't consider the NiMH a panacea.  They have advantages, but also problems.  Without a sophisticated charge control circuit they are prone to overheating and early failure.  The have lower energy density.  And it takes more effort to get your circuitry to use all the energy they do hold.  I have owned quite a few and certainly haven't found them good enough to abandon other battery technologies. 

For me the closest thing to a "perfect" battery chemistry for small scale applications is the Lithium A123 chemistry.  But it has warts also.

[free_electron]

My thoughts are: what will damage the seal.
1) Thermal expansion and contraction cycles.  The two metals move different ways and work the seal loose.
2) Physical damage.  Dropping the remote would also damage the seal.

1 : that's why you need an elastic seal. like a rubber o-ring. Those seem to work well. proven technology.
2 : o-rings (especially buna or viton) have been used in very critical systems, subject to lots of forces. they work fine.

[free_electron]

There is one obstacle in adoption, though.

not a primary cell, not 1.5 volt. off the table. and wrong answer. we are not talking to switch to nimh, we are talking solving the leaking problem
What you are proposing is like taking all the cars off the road and switching everyone to bicycles. now there will be no more car accidents. Sure. cause you took the cars away.

how about a hydrogen permeable seal ? at molecular level. like a membrane. or throw a hydrogen absorber in the mixture ?

[JustMeHere]

My thoughts are: what will damage the seal.
1) Thermal expansion and contraction cycles.  The two metals move different ways and work the seal loose.
2) Physical damage.  Dropping the remote would also damage the seal.

1 : that's why you need an elastic seal. like a rubber o-ring. Those seem to work well. proven technology.
2 : o-rings (especially buna or viton) have been used in very critical systems, subject to lots of forces. they work fine.

To respond to your 1 answer: The Columbia would still exist if temperatures didn't cause O rings to fail.

[David Hess]

To respond to your 1 answer: The Columbia would still exist if temperatures didn't cause O rings to fail.

Not everybody who worked for NASA is convinced of that, and even Feynman's report described other serious problems.

As far as alkaline cells leaking, I suspect the mercury, which was later removed, prevented a gas producing chemical reaction which would raise the internal cell pressure eventually forcing a leak through the seal.

[KE5FX]

Yeah, they would have kept flying that thing until something else brought it down.  The odds of a fatal Shuttle accident were estimated by NASA at 1% per flight, a figure that proved to be more or less on target.

[james_s]

My thoughts are: what will damage the seal.
1) Thermal expansion and contraction cycles.  The two metals move different ways and work the seal loose.
2) Physical damage.  Dropping the remote would also damage the seal.

1 : that's why you need an elastic seal. like a rubber o-ring. Those seem to work well. proven technology.
2 : o-rings (especially buna or viton) have been used in very critical systems, subject to lots of forces. they work fine.

To respond to your 1 answer: The Columbia would still exist if temperatures didn't cause O rings to fail.

Columbia? Are you thinking of Challenger?

[golden_labels]

Related, mendip_discovery found a leaked 9V alkaline today.

[CatalinaWOW]

Yeah, they would have kept flying that thing until something else brought it down.  The odds of a fatal Shuttle accident were estimated by NASA at 1% per flight, a figure that proved to be more or less on target.

There may have been an estimate like that somewhere.  But before they flew the first time they had to do a safety analysis that showed a probability of fatal accident was less than 10,000.  That analysis was the best estimate available at the time, but like all such analyses, is most useful at finding and eliminating failure modes.  They are rarely accurate predictions of safety, because there are always things that aren't thought about until hindsight, or there is no database to predict the likelihood of occurrence or any of a number of problems.

After the Challenger incident the process was repeated, with additional failure modes identified and corrective actions taken.  Again the pencil whipping exercise showed an acceptable fatal accident rate of less than 10,000.

The best estimator is reality, which gives a rough number of 2% with modest accuracy for the Space Shuttle system.

The same process has been repeated for SpaceX and Boeing.  We can only hope that reality is less unkind to them than it was to the Space Shuttle.  There are reasons to think this hope is well founded, but expecting it to be three orders of magnitude better seems unreasonable to me.

[james_s]

I don't find the safety record of the shuttle particularly alarming. Space flight is inherently dangerous, I don't think it will ever be like commercial air travel, it's always going to involve more risk just due to the sheer number of things that can go wrong, and the difficulty in recovering from any sort of mishap.

[David Hess]

I don't find the safety record of the shuttle particularly alarming. Space flight is inherently dangerous, I don't think it will ever be like commercial air travel, it's always going to involve more risk just due to the sheer number of things that can go wrong, and the difficulty in recovering from any sort of mishap.

The official shuttle safety record left out things like cracked turbine impellers in the engines.  Before it flew, a cracked turbine impeller was considered a "failure".  After a few launches where the engines returned with these "failures" and had to be completely rebuilt, it was redefined as a maintenance problem.

How many engine rebuilds due to cracked turbine impellers do you think Merlin engines have after every mission?

Something similar happened with the "bent" SSRB segments.

[Moragor]

I just found a Duracell Procell that leaked unused in the packaging.

[TheNewLab]

So dave are we rolling with this? Are you committed to getting that chamber?  A new toy.  I've been thinking of this discussion and there could be a whole series of other types of experimenting and testing with that unit. Also been thinking that the price-point you are finding is not that much for you. Considering what other premium test gear you have already acquired. Me? I fret over spending $400 for an entry-level oscilloscope...

About the Columbia and Challenger. Yup Feinmann had warned about it. The Challenger disaster still shakes me up. The first disaster since 3 astronauts roasted in early Apollo, or was it Gemini.
Challenger, I was working at a snack shop right next to busy Union Square. Huge foot traffic. Someone had a portable TV. as it happened, We were all glued to the horror. people were blocking up the sidewalk intersection watching this.

[scopeman]

I had an entire package of 48 Kirkland Brand (Costco) AA cells unopened that had over half of the cells leaking that I returned to Costco for a refund. This was about a year ago and the cells had an expiration date of 2026. They were stored in a closet at normal controlled house temperatures.

I don't know who makes them for Costco but I won't be buying those anymore.

Sam
W3OHM

[Fungus]

I don't know who makes them for Costco but I won't be buying those anymore.

So what will you be buying instead? 

[Electro Detective]

I don't know who makes them for Costco but I won't be buying those anymore.

So what will you be buying instead? 

Costco Alkalines, rated for space travel (preferably return flight travel  )    with a long use by date,

receipt stored with the batteries in paper form, in a separate vacuum sealed dark plastic bag

and a digital copy kept in the cloud,

the highest cloud cluster possible, in case of claims whilst in space.

 
Leaking alkalines are strong candidates for entry into the 'some things are certain in life' club

alongside death and taxes

----------------

Just today I discovered a sealed 10 pack AA alkalines (Long Life = lol)  from ALDI totally leaked and crusted up
stored alongside my cheapie inspection camera.

Room temperature and aircon etc  Luckily the plastic cover seal held as did the cardboard backing.


Yet a four pack of same blue batteries, in an open heatshrink plastic, supplied with the electronic item, had not leaked

Perhaps alkalines don't like to be stored with no air = ?   

[JustMeHere]

Just discovered that a solution of 3% H202 and distilled water does an excellent job of cleaning this up.  WAY BETTER THAN BAKING SOAD!!.   I had it mixed about 10 to 1 with distilled water being the major component. 

[ballsystemlord]

Let me posit to you a question, why not just clean (with sandpaper) and/or replace the battery contacts once they leak?

Seriously, I used to do this as a child. It was better than having my toys thrown away by mommy and daddy. I even took part of the aluminum blade on a plastic-wrap container, and bent off a piece until it broke (once the plastic-wrap was exhausted), to use it as a replacement for the no-longer conducting battery contacts on one of my things. That item, a small radio, still works today, IIRC.
So no need to throw out your expensive Fluke DMM and toy train from when you were a boy. <- Do it.

[thm_w]

Finding replacement contacts is not easy.
The steel blade on plastic wrap container is fairly soft, not the same as a carbon steel spring. Although it might work for you which is great.

[floobydust]

Just discovered that a solution of 3% H202 and distilled water does an excellent job of cleaning this up.  WAY BETTER THAN BAKING SOAD!!.   I had it mixed about 10 to 1 with distilled water being the major component.

What? You clean leaking alkaline battery residue off with an ACID like vinegar, using a Q-tip. Then rinse with water.

P.S>. This thread, reminds me keep searching for leaking Duracell batteries and sure enough two took the piss in my Thinkgeek BT joystick. But the alkaline crud dried out hard which limited corrosion. What a mess.

[ballsystemlord]

Finding replacement contacts is not easy.
The steel blade on plastic wrap container is fairly soft, not the same as a carbon steel spring. Although it might work for you which is great.

Umm, you didn't quite understand. I'll show you some pictures.
Ok, the radio I had done the repair on (among other things I did this to), eventually stopped working altogether. It powered on, but didn't output audio. Here's a similar model, which doesn't need it, but has the fixes I described above.
On the one side, you can see the aluminum bridging the contacts. On the other, you can see 2 pieces of aluminum, one behind the other, embedded into the spring. The spring, which eventually corrodes away to the point where it will not have good contact no matter what you do, now largely servers as something to put pressure onto the battery terminal.
I can't say I fully understand why this works even when sanding fails, but it does. I mean, why would 2 or 3 pieces of aluminum on top of each other conduct better than the terminals that were sanded down?

Anyway, I hope it's useful.

[TheBay]

Panasonic is off my list for batteries.

I bought a few packs about 6 months ago from a major retailer in the UK, they came off a large Panasonic display stand and absolutely no way they would be counterfeit.

I noticed a few weeks ago some were leaking in a fresh pack. I tested about 20 of them with a multimeter and the voltages were all over the place, only 3 were near the correct voltage. I ended up throwing them out.

Then this week I go to get an AA battery out of another pack in a drawer and it's leaked everywhere! these have an EXP Date of 2032.

I now need to go all over the house and workshop to find where I've put about 40 of these batteries. I think there might be some in the attic in Christmas decorations as well.

That's the last disposable AA, AAA or 9V cell/battery I ever buy, I'm going to pop in Ikea and stock up on some more LADDA for everything that will take a AA or AAA.

I've got 20 or more things in the workshop that takes 9V batteries, including 4x Fluke multimeters, so I've bought some 9V EBL Rechargeable lithium batteries to try out, if they work okay in everything I'll buy more, if some devices are fussy I'll get some 9.6V NiMH batteries.

[scopeman]

I know this is a necropost but I am moving to the Eveready Ultimate Lithium batteries for anything of value and considering the rechargable LiON AA and AAA batteries for future use. I wonder what their performance for possible leaking or self discharge.

Sam
W3OHM