Author Topic: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People  (Read 33320 times)

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Online pcprogrammer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #200 on: July 14, 2022, 01:10:25 pm »
It really isn't worth trying to debate religion, using logic or common sense. It won't get you anywhere!

I agree (See what I wrote earlier about how discussing god mostly ends), and at first I did not wanted to post my post, but he keeps on coming.

I would say that don't like to see any sexual act which doesn't turn me on. I saw a straight couple, with their bodies covered in ugly tattoos and piercings all over each other a few weeks ago and thought yuck.

I agree to that too. And again I did not wanted to post what I did, but to me, his statement makes me believe he is homophobic.

I have mixed views on the matter. I don't like words being redefined in the sense of political correctness, but lovers should have the right to have a formal, legally recognised relationship, irrespective of whether they're the same sex, or not. Ideally, the state should keep out of marriage and only civil unions, be they hetero or homosexual recognised in law, with marriage being purely religious. Unfortunately the state has been involved with marriage, ever since the state's existence, so there's no alternative, but to allow marriage, whether it be same sex, or opposite sex. It hasn't cost the government anything and has appeared to please more people, than it's upset, so it makes sense.

For me marriage in a way is a "foolish" concept, but probably conceived from the idea of some security in live and maybe also from religion as some form of control. In legislation it is used to differentiate between people just living together or living together as a married couple. The latter to secure rights when children are involved, etc. Sure nowadays you can get more or less the same status without marriage, like in France with a Pact, but that is, for as far as I know not recognized by church.

The only reason my wife and I got married after being together for 17 years was because of the holiday house we bought in France. Without being married and one of us dying, it would cost the remaining partner 60% of the dead partners share in the real estate. We did it late afternoon in the town hall with members of the council as witnesses.

I'm uneasy about two men adopting a child. Does that make me homophobic? Perhaps not, because I don't feel the same sense of anxiety about two women adopting a child. I suppose I just think children are safer with women, than men.

Don't think so. It is just a feeling that man are less trust worthy. And statistics might proof you right?

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #201 on: July 14, 2022, 02:47:55 pm »
I would say "learn to read". I did not say that the Koran is a translation of the bible. I stated that the Koran is a translation of earlier Koran written in an ancient language
either way, you still got it wrong. Koran originated in arab by illiterate arabian guy.. granted there are different arab accents and tribes, but they are still arab. And arab language hasnt change until today.. much like uk english, Usa and australia, different accents but easily understood by other continent..this indicates your weak understanding about the origin of it.. otherwise you need to present proof of what 'ancient arab' you are talking about... otoh if you think i'm into god discussion then you are quite wrong there.. i learnt a fair amount of time here that its useless to talk to people who dont want to listen to something that neither you or me can prove. Otoh regarding homophobic, well thats up to your definition and judgement.. i meant to say, when they do the disgusting act publicly. The one guy that aproached me to invite to his house, i said no politely, instead of sudden disgust by just knowing he's a homo.. i feel less disgusted or not at all if women kissing each other compared to men doing it, its kind of you can feel it on your own mouth.

The main problem with social media is not people posting "misinformation" or "hate" but the way the algorithm tends to recommend similar content to what you've liked or viewed in the past, which reinforces your current point of view.
algorithm is not an excuse, we have google and the hand typing what we want to find. the problem is we dont want to find what we dont want to find, due to some doctrination or indoctination embedded into us. thats what this thread is about... missing the good parts.
You're wrong here. The problem with google is that for different people who type the same thing it will show different results depending on what it "thinks" you should prefer. And good luck getting results which are not extremely biased in one way or another when it comes to anything politics related.
then make the algorithm change how it think about you by keep typing the same keyword in different phrases. it might think you are interested in different thing now ;)
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #202 on: July 14, 2022, 03:26:33 pm »
For me marriage in a way is a "foolish" concept, but probably conceived from the idea of some security in live and maybe also from religion as some form of control. In legislation it is used to differentiate between people just living together or living together as a married couple. The latter to secure rights when children are involved, etc. Sure nowadays you can get more or less the same status without marriage, like in France with a Pact, but that is, for as far as I know not recognized by church.

The only reason my wife and I got married after being together for 17 years was because of the holiday house we bought in France. Without being married and one of us dying, it would cost the remaining partner 60% of the dead partners share in the real estate. We did it late afternoon in the town hall with members of the council as witnesses.

Marriage as we now know it evolved almost entirely because of issues of determining property rights. Marriage with formal legal recognition of a formal marriage ceremony (whether religious or civil) is a relatively recent invention. Before circa 17th century in England most people didn't go through any formal recognition of marriage, expect for the nobility and gentry who did so to protect property rights, descents of titles and the like.  In England marriage wasn't codified in statute law before the Marriage Act of 1753 and that itself was a reaction to 'secret' marriages that muddied the lines of inheritance. Prior to the Marriage Act all that was needed in common or canon law was "words of present consent" to create a legally recognised marriage. As time went on it became more and more usual for 'commoners' to undergo formal marriage until we get to today's situation where it is regarded as universal and we differentiate between people who are married and those who simply have chosen to live together.  Most people make the mistake of assuming that "It's always been like that." when in fact it hasn't.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Online pcprogrammer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #203 on: July 14, 2022, 03:28:36 pm »
either way, you still got it wrong. Koran originated in arab...

Sorry here you are right. I should have followed my own criticism and do research before writing.

But what I found tells me that to be able to read the official Koran I would have to learn classical Arabic.

What I found on English and Dutch Wikipedia entries tells me that translations are not acknowledged as authoritative and should be based on exegesis to convey the proper message.

Quote
Muslims rely on exegesis, or commentary rather than a direct translation of the text.

I will leave it at that.


Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #204 on: July 14, 2022, 04:35:59 pm »
For me marriage in a way is a "foolish" concept, but probably conceived from the idea of some security in live and maybe also from religion as some form of control.
just to name a few... https://listverse.com/2014/05/22/10-incendiary-facts-about-incest/ it is the classical, easiest and cheapest way to trace biological relationship/parents... just imagine if there was no marriage back then, how do you want to make sure that your "sex partner" is not your biological sister? or even mother? it was the man made procedures that came recently, legalities paperwork ceremony and thousands of dollars etc that lead you to make such conclusion. we believe its started since the day of adam and eve... in its simplistic form, its an oath between 2 people of opposite sex to get together and take care each other and their kids. to make it stronger, parents or guardians must be present to witness the oath, and later announced to other family members and community so other man wont intrude to the "institution". and thats it, no need thousands of dollars on nonsense.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #205 on: July 14, 2022, 07:18:21 pm »
If you want to control someone, a good first step is isolate them.
 

That is not just for religion. Works for governments too :-DD Does not always work though, some people get out of prison being even bigger criminals.

One could argue that they are the same thing. Religion was the first form of government, it makes sense when you consider a person isn't too threatening, but if that person can convince people that they speak for a powerful supernatural being suddenly that person has a lot more power.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #206 on: July 14, 2022, 07:27:28 pm »
Yes I'm aware of gender reassignment surgeries. Call it reconstruction if you will, but if you regret it, then it's mutilation. Female genetical mutilation is outlawed in most western countries. Perhaps it should be allowed if the girl gives her consent? It's just soft tissue after all.

This is something that makes absolutely no sense to me. If I woke up tomorrow in a woman's body I'm sure it would feel strange for a while, but I'm also quite sure that I would get used to it and I would much rather have a fully formed and unmodified body that did not match the gender I felt like than a mutilated body that superficially resembled my preferred gender to some degree. I have nothing against trans people, if they are adults they are free to live their live any way they wish and I won't treat them badly for it, but I do think it is a mental illness, and I think the reason that the suicide rate is so high is not because they are treated poorly by society but because they are mentally ill, and the desire to change their gender just one of the symptoms of the underlying illness. It's unfortunate that it feels dangerous to even discuss this.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #207 on: July 14, 2022, 08:43:02 pm »
Hey, the original topic was specifically about individuals.  We've once again drifted into politics, talking about what should be done in the larger scale.

I sometimes mention that I really like individuals, but severely dislike people.  Groups, cliques, tribes, ideologies .. all that seems to just cloud peoples mind when it comes to dealing with individuals on a daily basis.  Like who you watch on Youtube, which news you read, or whether you cut off people just because they have an opinion you don't like.

I believe it is better to be open-minded and very liberal in dealing with individual humans, but conservative culturally and in the larger scale policies.

Which, funnily enough, is exactly the opposite of what is being pushed on us by the various social media.
Thou shalt exclude the wrong-thinkers that do not belong to your tribe, but accept whatever inane policies anyone might come up with at the governance level. :-//
The trouble is the actions and opinions of individuals affect wider society.

The main problem with social media is not people posting "misinformation" or "hate" but the way the algorithm tends to recommend similar content to what you've liked or viewed in the past, which reinforces your current point of view.
Truly so.  Which means that it is even more important to occasionally deliberately seek out differing points of view, and to try and avoid such recommendations!

This is also why I never log in to Youtube.  It does mean I cannot comment there, but at least every time I close my browser and reopen it, I get a completely new "fresh" start.  The Youtubers I regularly follow (EEVblog, Cutting Edge Engineering, AvE, BigClive, etc.) are in my bookmarks (more specifically, their video upload lists are), and for everything else, I use the (ridiculously bad and fuzzy) search engine.  It is a deliberate attempt to avoid being affected by the recommendation algorithms.
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #208 on: July 14, 2022, 11:14:44 pm »
This is something that makes absolutely no sense to me. If I woke up tomorrow in a woman's body I'm sure it would feel strange for a while, but I'm also quite sure that I would get used to it and I would much rather have a fully formed and unmodified body that did not match the gender I felt like than a mutilated body that superficially resembled my preferred gender to some degree. I have nothing against trans people, if they are adults they are free to live their live any way they wish and I won't treat them badly for it, but I do think it is a mental illness, and I think the reason that the suicide rate is so high is not because they are treated poorly by society but because they are mentally ill, and the desire to change their gender just one of the symptoms of the underlying illness. It's unfortunate that it feels dangerous to even discuss this.

I agree. Gender dysphoria is kind of incomprehensible to me, and I think surgeries are just masking some other underlying issue. People are free to do to their bodies whatever they want, it just won't solve the issue.

Personally I think this detachment from gender should be the norm, and deviations (to either side, i.e. overly focusing on your gender identity or gender dysphoria) are aberrations. I think this is called "postgenderism"?
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #209 on: July 15, 2022, 12:26:53 am »
Personally I think this detachment from gender should be the norm, and deviations (to either side, i.e. overly focusing on your gender identity or gender dysphoria) are aberrations. I think this is called "postgenderism"?
I always thought it was called "common sense".

(I'm not kidding.  In an earlier thread on the topic, I explained in detail how I consider such things as details belonging to the person, as opposed to things defining that person.  I often miss such details, and it bothers me none – until they get annoyed that I somehow was nasty/unfriendly/whatever by not acknowledging that detail of their person.)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2022, 12:29:16 am by Nominal Animal »
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #210 on: July 15, 2022, 01:29:04 am »
Personally I think this detachment from gender should be the norm, and deviations (to either side, i.e. overly focusing on your gender identity or gender dysphoria) are aberrations. I think this is called "postgenderism"?
I always thought it was called "common sense".

(I'm not kidding.  In an earlier thread on the topic, I explained in detail how I consider such things as details belonging to the person, as opposed to things defining that person.  I often miss such details, and it bothers me none – until they get annoyed that I somehow was nasty/unfriendly/whatever by not acknowledging that detail of their person.)

A young woman who is a friend of the family is married to a biological male who considers themself (I'm using their preferred pronoun here) a female lesbian.  Looking at this person you would think you were seeing a big hairy guy (full beard) wearing a dress.   I don't know how the young woman views herself.  They do have a child, I believe conceived the old-fashioned way.  But whatever you do, don't call the biological male a "him"!  Things are getting weirder and weirder.
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #211 on: July 15, 2022, 02:06:36 am »
I've been waiting for years whether they manage to invent new pronouns in Finnish, too.

In spoken Finnish, everything in third person is an 'it'.  Doesn't matter if it is animate, inanimate, a person, male, female, or whatever else.  In written Finnish, there is separate third person pronoun for people as there is for other things, but even that has always been a fuzzy line when something with a name becomes important enough. (Not a recent thing either; Finns used to believe in natural spirits and other such beings with more or less human-like characteristics and names, and they were referred to by the person pronoun as well.)

Me, I like 'it'.  Easier.  Reminds me that the value of a thing (to me) is not intrinsic, but in how it interacts.  Including things like art and mementoes, that don't interact actively, but do cause reactions in some people.  You know, like the favourite toy of an already passed loved pet.  Life is fleeting, and too precious to be wasted.
 

Online pcprogrammer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #212 on: July 15, 2022, 03:48:48 am »
Yes I'm aware of gender reassignment surgeries. Call it reconstruction if you will, but if you regret it, then it's mutilation. Female genetical mutilation is outlawed in most western countries. Perhaps it should be allowed if the girl gives her consent? It's just soft tissue after all.

This is something that makes absolutely no sense to me. If I woke up tomorrow in a woman's body I'm sure it would feel strange for a while, but I'm also quite sure that I would get used to it and I would much rather have a fully formed and unmodified body that did not match the gender I felt like than a mutilated body that superficially resembled my preferred gender to some degree. I have nothing against trans people, if they are adults they are free to live their live any way they wish and I won't treat them badly for it, but I do think it is a mental illness, and I think the reason that the suicide rate is so high is not because they are treated poorly by society but because they are mentally ill, and the desire to change their gender just one of the symptoms of the underlying illness. It's unfortunate that it feels dangerous to even discuss this.

The whole issue with this is that we as society run on what is called "normal" and everything that deviates from it is "abnormal" and is often put in the box "mental illness".

You say you are quite sure that you would get used to it being in a not your born with body, but you can't know this for sure. But if it happened you will at least have a frame of reverence of what your "normal" born with body was. The human psyche is very complex and for a "normal" person it is very difficult to understand what goes on in the mind of a "different" person. The easiest way to deal with it is label it and be done with it.

There is this saying "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" but as society we feel that the "different" are broken and need to be fixed. I guess a person with gender dysphoria their self feel broken and want to be fixed. One can argue that the way to go is mental treatment or that corrective surgery is, or both are needed. Common sense would dictate that the patient is the one to decide here, but the patient needs to be properly informed as far as possible. (This is, for instance, the guidance Zero999 brought to the table) A homosexual on the other hand is fine with who/what he/she is, but we as society see them as broken and therefore they need to be fixed. (Not my opinion)

Also very important is that a possible financial motivation is removed. I have read and watched interviews/documentaries way back about transgenders being denied surgery by the proper organizations, often revert to the morally diminished circuit of illegal surgery and pay a lot of money to get it done. Don't know if this is true, but if so it should be dealt with. Not by more laws on forbidding this, but by improving the proper channels.

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #213 on: July 15, 2022, 04:26:07 am »
The whole issue with this is that we as society run on what is called "normal" and everything that deviates from it is "abnormal" and is often put in the box "mental illness".
I think this is just the same tribalization going on.

Here, about a third of university students require a bit of help from student health mental services, because of the stress and such.  "Mental illness" itself isn't any different from say having a compound fracture: in ages past it might have meant that you were out of hope, but we can do better now.  And no, I'm not talking about "just eat this pill and you'll be fine"; I mean things like therapy, which should be considered the same as physical therapy after a serious injury.

The proper idea is not to make you feel better, but to make you strong enough to carry whatever burden you have.

In some strange way, it is this last sentence that seems to stick in peoples minds as somehow offensive, even though it is ultimately liberating: you are, whatever and however you are, already good enough: all you need is some strength to keep yourself healthy, and perhaps interact in a more worthwhile manner with others.

Instead, people are increasingly looking toward having their own tribe, and rejecting –– even literally fighting against –– the "others".

Just consider what "normal" typically means: "like people in my tribe", or "like the people who rejected me from their tribe".
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #214 on: July 15, 2022, 07:41:55 am »
Yes I'm aware of gender reassignment surgeries. Call it reconstruction if you will, but if you regret it, then it's mutilation. Female genetical mutilation is outlawed in most western countries. Perhaps it should be allowed if the girl gives her consent? It's just soft tissue after all.

This is something that makes absolutely no sense to me. If I woke up tomorrow in a woman's body I'm sure it would feel strange for a while, but I'm also quite sure that I would get used to it and I would much rather have a fully formed and unmodified body that did not match the gender I felt like than a mutilated body that superficially resembled my preferred gender to some degree. I have nothing against trans people, if they are adults they are free to live their live any way they wish and I won't treat them badly for it, but I do think it is a mental illness, and I think the reason that the suicide rate is so high is not because they are treated poorly by society but because they are mentally ill, and the desire to change their gender just one of the symptoms of the underlying illness. It's unfortunate that it feels dangerous to even discuss this.

The whole issue with this is that we as society run on what is called "normal" and everything that deviates from it is "abnormal" and is often put in the box "mental illness".

You say you are quite sure that you would get used to it being in a not your born with body, but you can't know this for sure. But if it happened you will at least have a frame of reverence of what your "normal" born with body was. The human psyche is very complex and for a "normal" person it is very difficult to understand what goes on in the mind of a "different" person. The easiest way to deal with it is label it and be done with it.

There is this saying "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" but as society we feel that the "different" are broken and need to be fixed. I guess a person with gender dysphoria their self feel broken and want to be fixed. One can argue that the way to go is mental treatment or that corrective surgery is, or both are needed. Common sense would dictate that the patient is the one to decide here, but the patient needs to be properly informed as far as possible. (This is, for instance, the guidance Zero999 brought to the table) A homosexual on the other hand is fine with who/what he/she is, but we as society see them as broken and therefore they need to be fixed. (Not my opinion)

Also very important is that a possible financial motivation is removed. I have read and watched interviews/documentaries way back about transgenders being denied surgery by the proper organizations, often revert to the morally diminished circuit of illegal surgery and pay a lot of money to get it done. Don't know if this is true, but if so it should be dealt with. Not by more laws on forbidding this, but by improving the proper channels.
I did chuckle when I read James' comment about turning into a woman. If he's straight and has a partner, it wouldn't be much fun for her. She'd probably leave him and he'd have to find a lesbian, assuming it doesn't change the sex his or her attraction. If he's gay and single, it would work in his favour, as he could get with a straight man.

I believe the definition of a mental illness is something which negatively psychologically affects the person's quality of life, or cause them to exhibit behaviour which presents a risk to themselves or others.

I don't buy into the argument those with gender dysphoria commit suicide purely because of society's prejudice against them. I've read studies which show this, but I doubt someone who doesn't have a mental illness consider suicide, when subject to the same level of prejudice. It would be interesting to see data of suicide rates in blacks during Jim Crow times, to see what affect true oppression and prejudice has on the suicide rate of a group, but I doubt it would be reliable if it exists.

When I suffered from an eating disorder anorexia nervosa, I used to get all sorts of comments about how thin I was, that I had to eat more, that I have aids, etc. These comments really did upset me and had a truly negative impact on my well-being. Looking back, I know full well it was my fragile state of mind, which made the comments hurt, more than anything else. I'm lean at the moment, but not sickly thin and I do get the odd skinny comment, but it doesn't bother me. Incidentally anorexia has a much higher fatality rate, than gender dysphoria and it's mostly due to suicide, rather than starvation. I know an eating disorder isn't the same as gender dysphoria, but it does have a commonality: the with feeling uncomfortable in one's own body.
The whole issue with this is that we as society run on what is called "normal" and everything that deviates from it is "abnormal" and is often put in the box "mental illness".
I think this is just the same tribalization going on.

Here, about a third of university students require a bit of help from student health mental services, because of the stress and such.  "Mental illness" itself isn't any different from say having a compound fracture: in ages past it might have meant that you were out of hope, but we can do better now.  And no, I'm not talking about "just eat this pill and you'll be fine"; I mean things like therapy, which should be considered the same as physical therapy after a serious injury.

The proper idea is not to make you feel better, but to make you strong enough to carry whatever burden you have.

In some strange way, it is this last sentence that seems to stick in peoples minds as somehow offensive, even though it is ultimately liberating: you are, whatever and however you are, already good enough: all you need is some strength to keep yourself healthy, and perhaps interact in a more worthwhile manner with others.

Instead, people are increasingly looking toward having their own tribe, and rejecting –– even literally fighting against –– the "others".

Just consider what "normal" typically means: "like people in my tribe", or "like the people who rejected me from their tribe".
True.

Again identity politics is not helping, especially the notion of microagressions which is just gaslighting. Society needs to be more accepting, but part of the treatment should be learning to deal with negative comments, prejudice and accept that your body is never going to be truly the sex you want it to be, irrespective of hormones and surgery. Part of my recovery was dealing with negative comments.

 

Online pcprogrammer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #215 on: July 15, 2022, 12:59:19 pm »
I believe the definition of a mental illness is something which negatively psychologically affects the person's quality of life, or cause them to exhibit behaviour which presents a risk to themselves or others.

Sounds right to me.

I don't buy into the argument those with gender dysphoria commit suicide purely because of society's prejudice against them. I've read studies which show this, but I doubt someone who doesn't have a mental illness consider suicide, when subject to the same level of prejudice.

I think it depends on how severe the pestering is. Humans can be very cruel and psychologically and physically mistreat someone to the extend that the person in question takes his own life, just to be freed from it. Don't have percentages here. And don't think it is just adults, children can be very cruel too.

When I suffered from an eating disorder anorexia nervosa, I used to get all sorts of comments about how thin I was, that I had to eat more, that I have aids, etc. These comments really did upset me and had a truly negative impact on my well-being. Looking back, I know full well it was my fragile state of mind, which made the comments hurt, more than anything else. I'm lean at the moment, but not sickly thin and I do get the odd skinny comment, but it doesn't bother me. Incidentally anorexia has a much higher fatality rate, than gender dysphoria and it's mostly due to suicide, rather than starvation. I know an eating disorder isn't the same as gender dysphoria, but it does have a commonality: the with feeling uncomfortable in one's own body.

Glad that you where able to overcome it.

I can somewhat relate with you here. I did not suffer from anorexia nervosa, but from age 17 to ~45 I weight 59 kilo and I'm 1m81 tall. I have also heard the same comments many times. But I could eat what I wanted and did not gain weight. After age 45 I started to gain some weight to about 69 kilo, but I started to feel uncomfortable. That was also around the time I started to notice some symptoms like shortness of breath and loosing strength. I went to a cardiologist to have it checked out. There is a history of heart disease in my family. The cardiologist could not find anything wrong (except for a total block right in the electrocardiogram) and had me do a stress test, after which he gave the advice to start walking on a daily basis. This we did, and I also changed my diet. Quit drinking coca cola (~2L per day), stopped eating these mini chocolate bars, etc. Now I weigh 63 kilo, and still people tell me I'm to thin.

But the symptoms did not go away and only got worse and others came up, like pain in the knees, back pain, headaches. X-rays, a cat-scan and a MRI revealed nothing. Blood tests showed nothing out of the ordinary. Very frustrating. Even the wife though I was faking to no longer have to work on the build. Eventually in 2018 I visited a rheumatologist and he concluded "chronic fatigue syndrome" with the emphasis on fibromyalgia.

He prescribed antidepressants in a low dosage. It would make me sleep better. I never had problems sleeping, but he. In the beginning it looked liked it was helping, but after 8 or 9 months it returned to what it was before, even after upping the dosage as advised by the doctor. Then I tried magnesium-oil with the same results. Then I tried CBD oil. Went up to the highest recommended dosage, but it did nothing for me. Found information about a new study about it possibly being an imbalance between GABA and glutamate. Had a blood test done, which showed normal levels, but later learned it concerns the imbalance in the brain and not the blood, but the tests for this are not yet available |O Tried GABA supplements anyway, but again no dice.

So I have to learn to live with it. Not easy, but I'm getting there.


Here, about a third of university students require a bit of help from student health mental services, because of the stress and such.  "Mental illness" itself isn't any different from say having a compound fracture: in ages past it might have meant that you were out of hope, but we can do better now.  And no, I'm not talking about "just eat this pill and you'll be fine"; I mean things like therapy, which should be considered the same as physical therapy after a serious injury.

The proper idea is not to make you feel better, but to make you strong enough to carry whatever burden you have.

In some strange way, it is this last sentence that seems to stick in peoples minds as somehow offensive, even though it is ultimately liberating: you are, whatever and however you are, already good enough: all you need is some strength to keep yourself healthy, and perhaps interact in a more worthwhile manner with others.

Instead, people are increasingly looking toward having their own tribe, and rejecting –– even literally fighting against –– the "others".

Just consider what "normal" typically means: "like people in my tribe", or "like the people who rejected me from their tribe".

Nowadays the danger of stress is much more known, and not so much looked upon as back in the day.

I had a "burn out" in 1990 at age ~27. Caused by stress. I lived in Delft in a house I was renovating, worked in Amsterdam and in the beginning also went to evening school in Den Haag. Was not good at saying "no" when asked if I could do extra work, so there where times I worked day and night. Being a perfectionist does not help. So at some point in time I was on my way to work, sitting in a train, and something snapped. Got out of the train in Leiden, went to the other track and returned home. Took me almost a year to recover, and was advised to go back to work (Same place as before). Within a year I was near the same point, so I quit. Luckily I received unemployment payment. This time it took two and a half year to get back on track and start my own "company". Did that for 17 years and earned enough money to quit the rat race. And here I'm 10 years further down the line.

I was in luck that the authorities did not make it difficult, but there was no referral to a psychologist. Just my GP who advised me to take up a sport and follow a healthy diet.

Again identity politics is not helping, especially the notion of microagressions which is just gaslighting. Society needs to be more accepting, but part of the treatment should be learning to deal with negative comments, prejudice and accept that your body is never going to be truly the sex you want it to be, irrespective of hormones and surgery. Part of my recovery was dealing with negative comments.

Yes learning to better deal with all the shit society throws at you is best, because lets face it society won't change, at least not so rapid. And with the rise of the internet hate and misinformation is spread much easier.

Watched this one this morning. It is about the "flat earthers" and near the end he tells about how that is splitting up in two groups that start to hate each other. Why do people obsess about this. Does it really matter if it is a disc or a sphere? Does it influence your way of living?

« Last Edit: July 15, 2022, 01:01:51 pm by pcprogrammer »
 

Online wraper

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #216 on: July 15, 2022, 03:51:53 pm »
Yes I'm aware of gender reassignment surgeries. Call it reconstruction if you will, but if you regret it, then it's mutilation. Female genetical mutilation is outlawed in most western countries. Perhaps it should be allowed if the girl gives her consent? It's just soft tissue after all.

This is something that makes absolutely no sense to me. If I woke up tomorrow in a woman's body I'm sure it would feel strange for a while, but I'm also quite sure that I would get used to it and I would much rather have a fully formed and unmodified body that did not match the gender I felt like than a mutilated body that superficially resembled my preferred gender to some degree. I have nothing against trans people, if they are adults they are free to live their live any way they wish and I won't treat them badly for it, but I do think it is a mental illness, and I think the reason that the suicide rate is so high is not because they are treated poorly by society but because they are mentally ill, and the desire to change their gender just one of the symptoms of the underlying illness. It's unfortunate that it feels dangerous to even discuss this.

The whole issue with this is that we as society run on what is called "normal" and everything that deviates from it is "abnormal" and is often put in the box "mental illness".

You say you are quite sure that you would get used to it being in a not your born with body, but you can't know this for sure. But if it happened you will at least have a frame of reverence of what your "normal" born with body was. The human psyche is very complex and for a "normal" person it is very difficult to understand what goes on in the mind of a "different" person. The easiest way to deal with it is label it and be done with it.

There is this saying "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" but as society we feel that the "different" are broken and need to be fixed. I guess a person with gender dysphoria their self feel broken and want to be fixed. One can argue that the way to go is mental treatment or that corrective surgery is, or both are needed. Common sense would dictate that the patient is the one to decide here, but the patient needs to be properly informed as far as possible. (This is, for instance, the guidance Zero999 brought to the table) A homosexual on the other hand is fine with who/what he/she is, but we as society see them as broken and therefore they need to be fixed. (Not my opinion)

Also very important is that a possible financial motivation is removed. I have read and watched interviews/documentaries way back about transgenders being denied surgery by the proper organizations, often revert to the morally diminished circuit of illegal surgery and pay a lot of money to get it done. Don't know if this is true, but if so it should be dealt with. Not by more laws on forbidding this, but by improving the proper channels.
The normal at minimum is what passes the genes further. Otherwise there would be no humanity as it would go extinct. Any deviation from that IMHO should be accepted with understanding and no hate but in no way it should be praised and celebrated as something good. Or even forced on unsuspecting children by activist teachers which is just evil. My opinion is that anyone is free to sleep with whoever they want if they are above legal age but don't make it public and keep me out of that please. I don't want to know anything about your sexual preferences and hate any agenda forced on me.
   A few other words about "normal". Public opinion used to keep people in check, if they do something weird, society would let them know about it. Thus keeping normalcy. It had it's downsides of course as who decides what is normal? These days weirdness is celebrated. People go further and further in their weird ideas and perversion supported by their echo chambers. But the rest of society stays silent because hurt feelings are supposed to be more important than reality. Overtone window shifts and now who says anything against perversion is seen as some kind of monster instead of a normal human being.
   The other thing is that most of underage people would simply grow out of their gender dysphoria or whatever weird ideas they had in a few years, especially with mental support. But hell no, their life shall be destroyed as surrounding pushes them further and further into their delusion. Then damage is already done and there is no way back.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2022, 04:08:04 pm by wraper »
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #217 on: July 15, 2022, 04:02:46 pm »
Looking at this person you would think you were seeing a big hairy guy (full beard) wearing a dress.

Are you sure he's not a Scottish Highlander?  :-DD
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #218 on: July 15, 2022, 04:41:39 pm »
Watched this one this morning. It is about the "flat earthers" and near the end he tells about how that is splitting up in two groups that start to hate each other. Why do people obsess about this. Does it really matter if it is a disc or a sphere? Does it influence your way of living?

No, flat vs sphere doesn't matter to most people. It would if you were a freighter captain or an airline pilot.
But facts matter even if they don't effect you directly. Especially stuff like this because once you go down that rabbit hole, it's very difficult to get out. Down there, you will encounter even more falsehoods that will effect your life.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2022, 04:47:08 pm by Kim Christensen »
 

Online pcprogrammer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #219 on: July 15, 2022, 05:33:32 pm »
No, flat vs sphere doesn't matter to most people. It would if you were a freighter captain or an airline pilot.

Sailors of the high seas and the captains of the wings know the truth 8) And for them it would sure make a difference, disc or sphere.

But facts matter even if they don't effect you directly. Especially stuff like this because once you go down that rabbit hole, it's very difficult to get out. Down there, you will encounter even more falsehoods that will effect your life.

A while back in this thread "science" and more or less "facts" passed the scene. Science very well explained by Nominal Animal here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/life-advice-dont-dismiss-or-lose-respect-for-people/msg4294723/#msg4294723

For "facts" one can opt the same principle. It is all man made, so what is true and what is false? When there is a majority in consensus about something, that becomes truth. But as with everything common sense is important to apply to all of this.

Just some quotes of the internet.

Quote
"One man’s truth is another man’s lie" or "One Man’s Truth is Another Man’s Folly"

And only when you let it something can effect your life.

Offline james_s

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #220 on: July 15, 2022, 05:37:26 pm »
I did chuckle when I read James' comment about turning into a woman. If he's straight and has a partner, it wouldn't be much fun for her. She'd probably leave him and he'd have to find a lesbian, assuming it doesn't change the sex his or her attraction. If he's gay and single, it would work in his favour, as he could get with a straight man.

I think we can ignore such details in this hypothetical situation as I am quite confident that I'm not suddenly going to wake up in a different body, and finding a different more suitable partner is not an impossible task, I've had to do so several times throughout my adult life. I'm a straight male, although being a female lesbian seems like it would be tolerable. I actually know at least one person who has changed gender, at least in as far as it is possible to actually do so, whilst keeping the same partner they had previously. Seems odd to me but if it works for then I'm not going to judge. It's a simple fact though that with current technology we have at our disposal, it is just not possible to truly change one's gender. With great effort, hormones and highly invasive surgeries it is possible to make a person resemble the opposite gender to some degree, but they're never going to actually be that gender. It's a well known fact that the vast majority of people both hetero and homosexual are not interested in dating a trans person. That group has the smallest available pool of potential partners.
 

Online pcprogrammer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #221 on: July 15, 2022, 05:58:43 pm »
I think we can ignore such details in this hypothetical situation as I am quite confident that I'm not suddenly going to wake up in a different body....

Only in the movies :-DD

Like "The Switch" from 1991. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103016/

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #222 on: July 15, 2022, 06:37:44 pm »
The normal at minimum is what passes the genes further. Otherwise there would be no humanity as it would go extinct.

This is an overly-simple criterion.  We have many examples of people who have helped humanity prosper without themselves actually reproducing.  Their sexual orientation was secondary to their other positive attributes.  Yes, humanity does need a critical mass of hetero-normal people in order to survive, but perhaps that's not the whole story?
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #223 on: July 15, 2022, 06:47:54 pm »
The normal at minimum is what passes the genes further. Otherwise there would be no humanity as it would go extinct. Any deviation from that IMHO should be accepted with understanding and no hate but in no way it should be praised and celebrated as something good. Or even forced on unsuspecting children by activist teachers which is just evil. My opinion is that anyone is free to sleep with whoever they want if they are above legal age but don't make it public and keep me out of that please. I don't want to know anything about your sexual preferences and hate any agenda forced on me.
I agree.  And as to homosexuality, it does occur in nature in various patterns, so it would be completely incorrect to call it "unnatural".
If we look at pre-urban, pre-agrarian human societies, where each living contributing human being was important, there is typically at least a couple of available roles: they weren't excluded, because the society could not afford to.  Agriculture brought a change to that.

(Even in agricultural societies there tends to be some roles, usually related to tending to other people as opposed to taking care of their own offspring.)

There are innumerable "natural" roles for a human to adopt/assume/own/have.  The family ones are very important for there to be a next generation and for that generation to be healthy and capable, which is why it is also natural to have an emphasis on such roles.  It is also easy to see why roles completely separated from that are observed as "immoral" or "wrong" or "dangerous to the society", especially to those deep in a family role.  In the past, humans died much, much more often and much, much younger, so morals and attitudes will take time to adjust.

One must remember that humans are not really that rational; a lot of our behaviour is instinctual and learned in childhood.  It may be completely unreasonable to demand humans well into their adulthood to reject those and adopt new ones.  Changes do take their time.

The other thing is that most of underage people would simply grow out of their gender dysphoria or whatever weird ideas they had in a few years, especially with mental support.
Yes, because it is part of human evolution to seek those possible roles.  More than our intelligence, it is our adaptability that made us so successful as a species.  It is not a coincidence that these problems occur soon after puberty, on the brink of adulthood.

You could thus say that such problems are also natural, except that nature is quite cruel here: in the past, those that did not find a suitable role, either died or became outlaws, murderers, raiders, and so on.  We now have better options.  It does not really matter much anymore which role one finds for oneself, as long as that choice supports their life as a human being, and interactions with other people.

But it does not mean that you get to decide to be an attack helicopter that everyone must address with your serial number.  Interaction is two-way, mutual, and nobody is entitled to "respect": it is earned by respecting others.  This is called fairness, and it is a concept very, very deep in humans.  It is actually not even a human trait, as it has been clearly observed in other primate and mammal species as well.
 
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Online pcprogrammer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #224 on: July 15, 2022, 07:15:21 pm »
...  More than our intelligence, it is our adaptability that made us so successful as a species.  ...

Successful is debatable. Yes the human species did accomplish a lot, but in the process it is also responsible for a lot of damage.

Time will tell what this will bring the human species.

Take for instance "fracking". In our pursuit of getting the last drop of oil or bubble of gas from the earth we inject chemicals to get it done. With this we ignore the risk of contaminating ground water planes that can spread the poison into the rest of nature. Eventually all this success might well be our downfall.


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