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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #225 on: July 15, 2022, 07:26:54 pm »
The proper idea is not to make you feel better, but to make you strong enough to carry whatever burden you have.

I fully agree with this.

Just making you feel better without helping you get stronger just further weakens you.
Not only that, but it makes you forever dependent on others - as you'll need this constant outside help for feeling better - rather than making you independent.

Beyond one's particular opinions on what is or is not "normal", which will be at least partly subjective, this part is what concerns me the most.
The current trend (which is now commonly called "wokism") is unfortunately trying to make a victim out of everyone who has a difficulty of any kind. Being victimized is never going to help anyone, and IMO, victimizing others is a sneaky way, behind the surface of looking like the nice person, of making others dependent on you. It's even one of the "tools" that is commonly seen in perverse narcissistic people.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #226 on: July 15, 2022, 09:06:38 pm »
...  More than our intelligence, it is our adaptability that made us so successful as a species.  ...

Successful is debatable. Yes the human species did accomplish a lot, but in the process it is also responsible for a lot of damage.

Time will tell what this will bring the human species.

Take for instance "fracking". In our pursuit of getting the last drop of oil or bubble of gas from the earth we inject chemicals to get it done. With this we ignore the risk of contaminating ground water planes that can spread the poison into the rest of nature. Eventually all this success might well be our downfall.

The human race will eventually vanish, nothing lasts forever, the planet will be fine though and will very likely host other life forms into the distant future, although eventually the sun will burn out and the earth will die. Nothing lasts forever, but I would certainly argue that the human race has already been a success, it has existed for many thousands of years and continues to expand.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #227 on: July 15, 2022, 09:42:38 pm »
...  More than our intelligence, it is our adaptability that made us so successful as a species.  ...

Successful is debatable. Yes the human species did accomplish a lot, but in the process it is also responsible for a lot of damage.

Time will tell what this will bring the human species.

Take for instance "fracking". In our pursuit of getting the last drop of oil or bubble of gas from the earth we inject chemicals to get it done. With this we ignore the risk of contaminating ground water planes that can spread the poison into the rest of nature. Eventually all this success might well be our downfall.

The human race will eventually vanish, nothing lasts forever, the planet will be fine though and will very likely host other life forms into the distant future, although eventually the sun will burn out and the earth will die. Nothing lasts forever, but I would certainly argue that the human race has already been a success, it has existed for many thousands of years and continues to expand.

It's hard to judge success or not. It's all relative. "Humanoid" species have been there for at least a million years AFAIK. They have kept evolving and hybriding. Humans as we are now have been more or less in their current form (while still evolving a bit) for a couple tens of thousands of years. That's very little on a geological scale. Many species currently on Earth are much older than we are, in a similar form as well (so that we can classify them as the same species.)

We may give birth to new species, or our "branch" may also end up disappearing altogether.

Of course the "success" of our own species matters to us, but I don't know if it really matters in the grand scheme of things, as far as "life" is concerned. As long as life keeps reproducing in various forms, life is successful.
 
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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #228 on: July 15, 2022, 10:13:55 pm »
...  More than our intelligence, it is our adaptability that made us so successful as a species.  ...
Successful is debatable.
Yes.  I specifically meant as a biological species, i.e. the niches the species is occupying, the biomes humans can thrive in (from hottest deserts to coldest Siberia), the foods humans can consume (just about anything), and so on.

I definitely didn't mean to imply "successful" in any positive sense; just in the strict biological sense as a species.
 
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Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #229 on: July 16, 2022, 02:38:47 am »
The normal at minimum is what passes the genes further. Otherwise there would be no humanity as it would go extinct.

This is an overly-simple criterion.  We have many examples of people who have helped humanity prosper without themselves actually reproducing.  Their sexual orientation was secondary to their other positive attributes.  Yes, humanity does need a critical mass of hetero-normal people in order to survive, but perhaps that's not the whole story?

There's the popular idea that man can exist in a vacuum, individual; perhaps subsisting at best; but, in the fullest sense: free.  Hobbes' "state of nature".

But we have direct evidence, from all related fields -- neurology, psychology, sociology, archaeology, etc. -- that such a state is utterly constructed, imagined.

Or if such a state did exist, it was on the order of, I don't know, 30 million years ago or more -- before our so very distant ancestors formed social groups in the first place.

Since then, survival of the species has always been tied to survival of the group.  And neurological and psychological evidence shows humans have the exceptional capacity to understand the relationships between members of a group up to around 150 members (Dunbar's number), compared to 10-30 for closely related primates.  (Come to think of it, I haven't heard how this number relates to the size of other social mammals, especially herding animals -- surely they must have some beef with each other past some critical size -- then again, they survive under a different dynamic, and probably they have a different fear/friend response to in/out-group individuals as a result. A farmer/rancher/shepherd would probably find the answer to this very obvious, but alas, one I am not.)

So the "state of nature" for humans, over the last couple million years that have most closely fine-tuned our evolution, has likely been as a superorganism consisting of increasingly many individuals, from a similar scale as our relatives (~10s), up to the ~150 we are at now (which is evidently about the critical mass to kick off agriculture and industrial revolution... assuming we could ever show causality from this property, heh).

And the survival of a superorganism is a very different thing from the survival of an individual.  If the group is largely related*, then it doesn't much matter, genetically speaking, who dies, nor who passes on their DNA.

*Not like THAT ::), of course I mean in contrast to neighboring villages; each one which might consist of many extended families, who are more closely related to each other, on average, than to their neighbors.  But also not exclusive, as mixing and matching is also a necessary part of a healthy species.  Whether by voluntary action (free exchange between villages), coerced (arranged weddings, strategic agreements?) or forced (rape, war raids taking prisoners, etc.).  Evolution sadly doesn't mind any such distinctions.

And so we can easily explain -- I think -- "deviant" traits.  Mind, this doesn't explain homosexuality per se -- but it is nonetheless sufficient to debunk a position based on reproductive fitness.

Simply put: since the survival of a given individual is less important, while the survival of the group is paramount, then there is plenty of space for roles which help the group, without contributing to its reproduction.

Indeed, too much reproduction would be a big survival issue for a group.  Reproductive control has always been an aspect of humanity, whether through use of natural medicines (contraceptives, abortifacients), or cold brutal infanticide.  Harsh realities for individuals, but necessities of group survival.

And it's not like we have to go far to see living examples of such contributions.  Like, can it get any more obvious -- explain old people!  How can it be, that humans can live beyond childbearing age?  Why don't they keel over and die when their gonads stop?  (This obviously makes a stronger argument concerning women, but old men also experience reduced fertility.)  Clearly, there are roles, required for group survival, that do not involve directly bearing children; else why waste good food on useless old people?  Evolution found a use.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet, if you could survey such groups -- rather hard to do archaeologically, but there are few surviving isolated/uncontacted hunter-gatherer tribes, so, theoretically speaking, anyway -- and find that there is a negative correlation between homosexual population, and life expectancy.  That is, if survival in the environment is more difficult, then there will be fewer old people, and a greater need for infertile people -- those not preoccupied with raising children.

And it won't be a strong correlation, but modest: there are some roles that young/adult bodies can serve, that old people simply can't; and some roles that both can.  It's the exclusive roles which motivate this argument.

Notice the mechanism of this argument.  It's not that births magically adjust themselves to conditions; well, maybe stress during pregnancy plays a role, that's plausible I suppose -- however, we'd have data on that today as well (which, I wonder if that particular correlation has been studied? something to look into..).  It's that society itself changes, adapts, over many generations -- and along with it, the population balance, and the norms -- whether more or less "deviant" behavior is tolerated or accepted.

Mind, it's not even that a particular society need adapt itself in these ways -- as long as there's a reasonable "breeding population" of the superorganisms themselves -- the groups/villages -- selection pressures will force them, slowly but surely, either to change, to adopt norms of more successful neighboring groups, or to die -- perhaps outright, but perhaps more likely by fragmentation (individuals migrate to neighbors).  Mind also, warfare plays a role here, as otherwise-healthy villages are always testing each other, sometimes in friendly sport, but also sometimes in deadly combat.  If there is no environmental pressure, humans will find a way to create their own... go figure.

In contrast, where we are today: babies are, for the large part, wanted and loved, and infant mortality is at all-time lows.  So we're getting the unfiltered natural occurrence that humanity ultimately evolved to (from the last 100kyr or so), without the reproductive and societal pressures associated with group survival.  And as we destigmatize these formerly "deviant" traits, we're finding that, evidently the natural occurrence rate is around 15%.

And, mind, maybe (probably?) homosexuality per se has nothing to do with it; that really just serves here as a proxy for individuals who are less fertile, by any reason, whether biologically or psychologically.  Or maybe there are still other factors that would support this mechanism, that don't need to relate to I don't know, I'm not a demographer, or any of these other things.  I'm just putting ideas together.

And we could still come up with explanations for homosexuality (or related traits), over other more direct traits.  For example, if a group suffers from very low fertility, say in some very rough years (drought? poisoning? war?), more individuals can be pressured into reproduction, improving survival of the group; those individuals represent a reserve of reproductive capacity, that isn't normally active.  Whereas some kind of congenital infertility, say, would supply the same bodies, but not offer such an emergency capacity.

[And, in case you were wondering, I use sex here, not gender, i.e., who today we might call AMAB/AWAB.  Much as I'd like to, it's impossible to be culturally sensitive to imagined members of prehistoric groups, after all.]

----

As for applying similar arguments today -- well, you're relatively welcome to pick and choose what your own personal morality is, these days, but the direct equivalent to prehistoric evolution would seem to be, the fitness of the whole Earth -- given how interconnected we are these days.  Thus, the highest level of optimization seems to be the world economy, and we can attach some variety of utilitarianism to that -- whether it be by raw capitalist dollar value, or including some degree of constituent preference in there as well (rule utilitarianism, etc.).

Interestingly, the world seems to be made up, recursively, of superorganisms in turn.  While the success of the individual, rewards success to the group, and in turn, the neighborhood, city, state, country, and world economy; in the same way that the survival of a superorganism doesn't necessarily depend on survival of any given individual, so too, we have the case that individuals, groups, neighborhoods, cities, states or countries, can come and go in search of greater global fitness.  And, indeed, that is the observation; often through exceedingly, unprecedentedly violent means, at that... death of a state (or, most levels of superorganism, really) being better known as genocide.

So, given the level we've reached already -- it's not at all necessary that we continue along some imagined line of progress -- we could simply be happy enough with things as they are now.  Any interest to go further, necessarily indicates interest in optimizing the superorganism.  Which means, if you'd like to see, say, cybernetics, or "hard" AI maybe a singularity or something, maybe colonizing other planets/systems -- well, that'll take a more advanced level of technology than we have now, and so you must support the superorganism in aim of that goal.

However, if you hold such values, and also hold values favoring individuality, "freedom", resourcefulness -- you hold a contradiction.  You cannot be in favor of both: one is towards progress, one is against it.  There is no progress, nothing like the global system we have today at least -- from lone individuals hiding in little grass huts.  That is, if you remove everything we have to day, that's where you'd be, worse off indeed than the real human "state of nature" in ~150 size villages -- instead playing the true Hobbesian nightmare, scared, cold and starving in a hut in the wilderness.

(And, to be clear, such a state, is indeed possible; many have certainly done so, even without the benefit of modern materials, i.e. not even taking knives, pots, etc. with them.  But a means of propagating the species, it is not.)

Tim
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Online fourfathom

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #230 on: July 16, 2022, 04:06:39 pm »
[...] Any interest to go further, necessarily indicates interest in optimizing the superorganism.  Which means, if you'd like to see, say, cybernetics, or "hard" AI maybe a singularity or something, maybe colonizing other planets/systems -- well, that'll take a more advanced level of technology than we have now, and so you must support the superorganism in aim of that goal.

However, if you hold such values, and also hold values favoring individuality, "freedom", resourcefulness -- you hold a contradiction.  You cannot be in favor of both: one is towards progress, one is against it. [...]
But I am in favor of both, and see no contradiction.  Instead I see a balance, or compromise between competing goals.  We make such compromises constantly, and without them life would be pretty awful.

It's the absolutists I fear.  This is why (as I mentioned before) I am a pragmatic libertarian, and I feel free to redefine "libertarian" as I see fit.
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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #231 on: July 16, 2022, 04:18:04 pm »
It is exactly that balance, that requires us to consider more opinions than just the ones that are "obviously correct" for us.  Which leads directly back to the topic at hand, Dave's video.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #233 on: July 16, 2022, 04:34:16 pm »
The normal at minimum is what passes the genes further. Otherwise there would be no humanity as it would go extinct.

This is an overly-simple criterion.  We have many examples of people who have helped humanity prosper without themselves actually reproducing.  Their sexual orientation was secondary to their other positive attributes.  Yes, humanity does need a critical mass of hetero-normal people in order to survive, but perhaps that's not the whole story?
There's the popular idea that man can exist in a vacuum, individual; perhaps subsisting at best; but, in the fullest sense: free.  Hobbes' "state of nature".

But we have direct evidence, from all related fields -- neurology, psychology, sociology, archaeology, etc. -- that such a state is utterly constructed, imagined.

Or if such a state did exist, it was on the order of, I don't know, 30 million years ago or more -- before our so very distant ancestors formed social groups in the first place.

Since then, survival of the species has always been tied to survival of the group.  And neurological and psychological evidence shows humans have the exceptional capacity to understand the relationships between members of a group up to around 150 members (Dunbar's number), compared to 10-30 for closely related primates.  (Come to think of it, I haven't heard how this number relates to the size of other social mammals, especially herding animals -- surely they must have some beef with each other past some critical size -- then again, they survive under a different dynamic, and probably they have a different fear/friend response to in/out-group individuals as a result. A farmer/rancher/shepherd would probably find the answer to this very obvious, but alas, one I am not.)
...
If we take it on the level of group survival instead of individual, then original population of progressive first world is dying. Birth rates are super low and population is replaced by immigrants and their children because they have much higher birth rates. Look at population of London for example, white British were effectively replaced there and will soon go extinct if trends remain the same.
 
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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #234 on: July 16, 2022, 04:36:57 pm »
If we take it on the level of group survival instead of individual, then original population of progressive first world is dying. Birth rates are super low and population is replaced by immigrants and their children because they have much higher birth rates.

And that is how the united states was born. Immigrants that took over. Not per se with higher birth rates, but certainly with the believe of being better then the locals.

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #235 on: July 16, 2022, 04:47:47 pm »
If we take it on the level of group survival instead of individual, then original population of progressive first world is dying. Birth rates are super low and population is replaced by immigrants and their children because they have much higher birth rates.

Not very relevant -- again, think in terms of superorganisms, not individuals.  It's how much power those groups exert, compared to others; not their relative populations.

Think how many wars have been won against overwhelming odds, thanks to superior weaponry or strategy.  Or despite them, for that matter.  You could probably draw plenty of examples of both cases from, say, just WWII Germany vs. Russia: first with the invasion proceeding rapidly through superior tactics, training and firepower; second as truly overwhelming numbers ground them down.  Evidently Germany had about so-and-so multiplier on their side, due to those factors; but in the end, Russia just had that many times more to throw back at them.

In modern context, for example USA isn't very concerned about China's outnumbering standing army, nor the considerable population they can recruit from; their capability is still considered inferior.  (At least, that's my guess.  I'm not a strategy wonk.)  I can't say an open war between those powers would be very pleasant for anyone (anywhere on Earth, at that, let alone for the powers themselves), but a technical victory seems likely at this time.  (Ask again in maybe 20 or 30 years, the answer may be... well, it'll probably be pretty obvious by then, what the state of affairs is...)

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Online wraper

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #236 on: July 16, 2022, 04:56:20 pm »
If we take it on the level of group survival instead of individual, then original population of progressive first world is dying. Birth rates are super low and population is replaced by immigrants and their children because they have much higher birth rates.

Not very relevant -- again, think in terms of superorganisms, not individuals.  It's how much power those groups exert, compared to others; not their relative populations.

Think how many wars have been won against overwhelming odds, thanks to superior weaponry or strategy.  Or despite them, for that matter.  You could probably draw plenty of examples of both cases from, say, just WWII Germany vs. Russia: first with the invasion proceeding rapidly through superior tactics, training and firepower; second as truly overwhelming numbers ground them down.  Evidently Germany had about so-and-so multiplier on their side, due to those factors; but in the end, Russia just had that many times more to throw back at them.

In modern context, for example USA isn't an open war between those powers woulvery concerned about China's outnumbering standing army, nor the considerable population they can recruit from; their capability is still considered inferior.  (At least, that's my guess.  I'm not a strategy wonk.)  I can't say d be very pleasant for anyone (anywhere on Earth, at that, let alone for the powers themselves), but a technical victory seems likely at this time.  (Ask again in maybe 20 or 30 years, the answer may be... well, it'll probably be pretty obvious by then, what the state of affairs is...)

Tim
Superorganisms? In previous post I basically said that this superorganism gets replaced by more successful and fertile immigrants. What is the point of winning external wars when original population of the country dies from the inside? Also if talking about wars, USA pretty much lost every time since WW2. Libia, Iraq, Afganistan - US sort of won initially but the result is a large long lasting shit show for everyone.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 05:12:02 pm by wraper »
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #237 on: July 16, 2022, 05:13:56 pm »
If we take it on the level of group survival instead of individual, then original population of progressive first world is dying. Birth rates are super low and population is replaced by immigrants and their children because they have much higher birth rates.

Not very relevant -- again, think in terms of superorganisms, not individuals.  It's how much power those groups exert, compared to others; not their relative populations.

Think how many wars have been won against overwhelming odds, thanks to superior weaponry or strategy.  Or despite them, for that matter.  You could probably draw plenty of examples of both cases from, say, just WWII Germany vs. Russia: first with the invasion proceeding rapidly through superior tactics, training and firepower; second as truly overwhelming numbers ground them down.  Evidently Germany had about so-and-so multiplier on their side, due to those factors; but in the end, Russia just had that many times more to throw back at them.

In modern context, for example USA isn't very concerned about China's outnumbering standing army, nor the considerable population they can recruit from; their capability is still considered inferior.  (At least, that's my guess.  I'm not a strategy wonk.)  I can't say an open war between those powers would be very pleasant for anyone (anywhere on Earth, at that, let alone for the powers themselves), but a technical victory seems likely at this time.  (Ask again in maybe 20 or 30 years, the answer may be... well, it'll probably be pretty obvious by then, what the state of affairs is...)

Tim

Don't forget about the weather conditions during that WWII battle. The Germans where not properly equipped for the extreme colds. A fatal flaw in Hitlers quest was his impatience. Had he first stabilized his first captures and rebuild his armies it might had lead to us all speaking German by now.

But some that you might like not to remember, the Vietnam and Korean wars, despite the weaponry where not really won either.

All I hope for is another 30 years of peace and somewhat stable existence. Call me an egoist, but after my death I don't give a f.. what happens to humanity.

Edit: China does not have to go to war. All it has to do is collect the debts. And they buy or invest into a lot of important infrastructure (for instance harbors), so they can control things from the inside. And we brought them the money to do it because it saved a couple of pennies. |O
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 05:26:44 pm by pcprogrammer »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #238 on: July 16, 2022, 05:55:25 pm »
In contrast, where we are today: babies are, for the large part, wanted and loved, and infant mortality is at all-time lows.  So we're getting the unfiltered natural occurrence that humanity ultimately evolved to (from the last 100kyr or so), without the reproductive and societal pressures associated with group survival.  And as we destigmatize these formerly "deviant" traits, we're finding that, evidently the natural occurrence rate is around 15%.
By deviant traits, I presume you're talking about homosexuality? If so, I've heard that 15% figure before, but if I remember rightly it's based on a survey asking people whether they have ever experienced same sex attraction. The number of people who are exclusively homosexual is much lower. A good proportion of people have engaged in homosexual activity at some point, but far fewer choose a partner of the same sex, over one of the opposite sex. Quite often homosexuality is situational, i.e. the person has no choice but a partner of the same sex, or it might be tactical i.e. a group of women touching each other in order to attract men.
If we take it on the level of group survival instead of individual, then original population of progressive first world is dying. Birth rates are super low and population is replaced by immigrants and their children because they have much higher birth rates.

Not very relevant -- again, think in terms of superorganisms, not individuals.  It's how much power those groups exert, compared to others; not their relative populations.

Think how many wars have been won against overwhelming odds, thanks to superior weaponry or strategy.  Or despite them, for that matter.  You could probably draw plenty of examples of both cases from, say, just WWII Germany vs. Russia: first with the invasion proceeding rapidly through superior tactics, training and firepower; second as truly overwhelming numbers ground them down.  Evidently Germany had about so-and-so multiplier on their side, due to those factors; but in the end, Russia just had that many times more to throw back at them.

In modern context, for example USA isn't an open war between those powers woulvery concerned about China's outnumbering standing army, nor the considerable population they can recruit from; their capability is still considered inferior.  (At least, that's my guess.  I'm not a strategy wonk.)  I can't say d be very pleasant for anyone (anywhere on Earth, at that, let alone for the powers themselves), but a technical victory seems likely at this time.  (Ask again in maybe 20 or 30 years, the answer may be... well, it'll probably be pretty obvious by then, what the state of affairs is...)

Tim
Superorganisms? In previous post I basically said that this superorganism gets replaced by more successful and fertile immigrants. What is the point of winning external wars when original population of the country dies from the inside? Also if talking about wars, USA pretty much lost every time since WW2. Libia, Iraq, Afganistan - US sort of won initially but the result is a large long lasting shit show for everyone.
Yes, that's true. Societies die when another ethnic group invades and replaces them. This has happened a lot in the past, but now in the west our leaders are allowing it to happen because they benefit in the short term, as immigrants do jobs comparatively wealthy natives won't do, they're cheaper to employ, which drives down wages and increased in demand for housing props up the building industry. It's more bleak in the long term. The immigrants invariably don't come from a culture of freedom and democracy and they don't integrate, leading to interethnic tension.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #239 on: July 16, 2022, 06:30:16 pm »
Edit: China does not have to go to war. All it has to do is collect the debts. And they buy or invest into a lot of important infrastructure (for instance harbors), so they can control things from the inside. And we brought them the money to do it because it saved a couple of pennies. |O

I'm not so sure about that. Technically they could own assets within the USA and we could tell them to f*** off and there is not much they could do other than declare war. Of course at the moment we are far too reliant on them, something the pandemic should illustrate is that a country should never become too reliant on another country. Not necessarily because we don't like them, but because in a time of global crisis they are going to look after the needs of their own citizens first, and rightfully so. We must have the capability to provide for ourselves if needed. Even if a domestic factory is not by itself profitable it could make sense to keep it going anyway.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #240 on: July 16, 2022, 06:34:49 pm »
Talking about technical superiority of weaponry is at least silly, as Afganistan has demonstrated. The secret sauce is perhaps elswhere but not in that.
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Online fourfathom

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #241 on: July 16, 2022, 06:43:28 pm »
And don't you love it how it leads to 23 pages and counting of arguing https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/electroboom-how-right-is-veritasium!-dont-electrons-push-each-other/550/?topicseen#lastPost

Actually, I do like it.  This is intellectual exercise and entertainment for tech-nerds (like me).  If some jerks can't debate without name-calling -- well, some people are jerks.  We can ignore them, or be amused and possibly learn some useful insults.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #242 on: July 16, 2022, 06:52:34 pm »
Edit: China does not have to go to war. All it has to do is collect the debts. And they buy or invest into a lot of important infrastructure (for instance harbors), so they can control things from the inside. And we brought them the money to do it because it saved a couple of pennies. |O

I'm not so sure about that. Technically they could own assets within the USA and we could tell them to f*** off and there is not much they could do other than declare war. Of course at the moment we are far too reliant on them, something the pandemic should illustrate is that a country should never become too reliant on another country. Not necessarily because we don't like them, but because in a time of global crisis they are going to look after the needs of their own citizens first, and rightfully so.

Sure the USA could tell China to f*** off, but it would damage the precious economy for sure. Will China declare war, that is the question. For them there is also a lot in stake. I think China's economy will also take a dive when they declare war, due to the rest of the west imposing sanctions. Just as the whole gender discussion a very difficult topic. World economics and how it all depends on so many factors.

We must have the capability to provide for ourselves if needed. Even if a domestic factory is not by itself profitable it could make sense to keep it going anyway.

That is indeed what the covid period showed, and also what Russia v.s Ukraine is showing right now. Countries need to become more self sufficient, but a big problem is natural resources. Take the Netherlands, not much natural resources there, apart from some gas in Groningen, but the extraction of it causes earthquakes. So they have to import a lot and stock pile it for times of trouble, which leads to other problems.
 
But it will lead to individualism on a much larger scale, and the our country against theirs becomes a big issue. Chauvinism is a dangerous thing.

Edit: According to this website Japan holds an even bigger stake in the US debt than China. https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-3306124 Have not verified it against other sources.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 07:21:31 pm by pcprogrammer »
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #243 on: July 16, 2022, 06:56:49 pm »
And don't you love it how it leads to 23 pages and counting of arguing https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/electroboom-how-right-is-veritasium!-dont-electrons-push-each-other/550/?topicseen#lastPost

Actually, I do like it.  This is intellectual exercise and entertainment for tech-nerds (like me).  If some jerks can't debate without name-calling -- well, some people are jerks.  We can ignore them, or be amused and possibly learn some useful insults.

The jokes in between are certainly amusing.

I'm not into physics that much, but would have enjoyed this when I was young. I wrote the first post after the initial start of the thread, and it shows what my take on it is. :)

Offline Zero999

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #244 on: July 16, 2022, 07:12:29 pm »
All countries are reliant on one another to some extent. I can't the US going to war with China any time soon. They rely on one another too much for trade too much.
 

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #245 on: July 16, 2022, 07:15:21 pm »
IMHO, the only, while still remarkable, success we have achieved as a species is the ability to determine our own future in some way and, at least partially, get out of our "condition".
Of course, this can be seen on a relatively short scale and maybe it's all just an illusion.
 

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #246 on: July 16, 2022, 07:37:27 pm »
...  More than our intelligence, it is our adaptability that made us so successful as a species.  ...
Successful is debatable. Yes the human species did accomplish a lot, but in the process it is also responsible for a lot of damage.
Time will tell what this will bring the human species.

Take for instance "fracking". In our pursuit of getting the last drop of oil or bubble of gas from the earth we inject chemicals to get it done. With this we ignore the risk of contaminating ground water planes that can spread the poison into the rest of nature. Eventually all this success might well be our downfall.
dongkey and pig also can be successful species even without us ;)... medication and chemicals we injected into our body, nucular contamination, chemicals on food, antivirus (aids origin) etc etc that caused mutilated childborn, disorders etc etc.... when we mention God, god is to be blamed of all this, everything good is human. even if its true there is no God, then who caused all this abnormalities? they silent without noise... but no, they will ask us back (in defense), where is your proof? we can find proof when it is too late.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #247 on: July 16, 2022, 08:22:09 pm »
But facts matter even if they don't effect you directly. Especially stuff like this because once you go down that rabbit hole, it's very difficult to get out. Down there, you will encounter even more falsehoods that will effect your life.
A while back in this thread "science" and more or less "facts" passed the scene. Science very well explained by Nominal Animal here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/life-advice-dont-dismiss-or-lose-respect-for-people/msg4294723/#msg4294723
For "facts" one can opt the same principle. It is all man made, so what is true and what is false? When there is a majority in consensus about something, that becomes truth. But as with everything common sense is important to apply to all of this.

On this I disagree. There are certain facts that are not worth questioning. Take Newton's law of gravitation for example. While the science behind it is not entirely correct, for Joe Average on Earth, it is 100% reliable to accept it as "fact". Stepping off the roof of a 30 story building will result in 100% of the people falling to their deaths (with no parachute, etc). None will "float" in mid air like Wile Coyote does. (before her realizes where he is and the physics kick in)
While a physicist, astronomer, Rocket scientist, etc, shouldn't be relying on Newton's law as a "fact" it's perfectly fine for Joe Average.

Same goes for the flat Earth crap. There's really no room for debate about that. Those are the "facts" I'm talking about. Just because someone can point to unsettled science doesn't mean these basic truths should be questioned. To do so, would result in more people falling to their deaths and doing other stupid things. That's what I meant when I said, "Facts matter".



« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 08:25:35 pm by Kim Christensen »
 

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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #248 on: July 17, 2022, 12:00:24 am »
Superorganisms? In previous post I basically said that this superorganism gets replaced by more successful and fertile immigrants. What is the point of winning external wars when original population of the country dies from the inside? Also if talking about wars, USA pretty much lost every time since WW2. Libia, Iraq, Afganistan - US sort of won initially but the result is a large long lasting shit show for everyone.

The superorganism is not its constituents.

The superorganism persists regardless of its constituency, until such point the superorganism is destroyed, disbanded, absorbed, etc. (remaining constituents die off, leave, or get absorbed by another superorganism).  Think Ship of Theseus.  As long as there's a culture that considers itself e.g. "United Kingdom", then that entity continues to exist.  Doesn't matter if its people are white, brown or green.  And its collective values, culture, society likely will change gradually with its constituency -- Britain didn't always know curry -- but there remains a continuous unbroken line through history, of an entity, with borders roughly in such-and-such location, that calls itself this.

Internal values can also change quite a bit, while international relations evolve on a somewhat separate track.  Britain might be progressive enough to have free healthcare, but they also withdrew from the EU...

It's sometimes perplexing that so many western countries don't want more immigrants; but it would be some burden to reeducate them (and words like "reeducation" aren't particularly popular), so that isn't done very often, and mostly they serve as cheap labor (what could be cheaper than labor that's "not supposed" to be here in the first place?).  Their values don't seem to be an issue: after all, it's the ones that cry about them the loudest (right wingers), with whom they share the most values (strongly religious, authoritarian, low education, etc. -- depending obviously a lot on where they're immigrating from!).  And indeed there are some strong populations of minorities that vote Republican (particularly FL Cubans, IIRC).

As for most recent proxy wars: winning battles is far too narrow a perspective.  Again, globalization.  No one needs to shift borders anymore.  (Well, Russia's trying to...)  Middle-east policy is to keep the area stricken with war and dictators so that stable, democratic governments cannot be set up -- which would secure their borders economically speaking, and extract value (taxes!) from their mineral (oil) resources.  The worst thing for the world right now (as leaders see it, that is) would be having a Sweden smack in the middle of that region, jacking up worldwide oil prices.

Winning wars and taking territory is outdated; it's all about the oil flow.  It's never been about "freedom", or "spreading democracy", or "protecting allies" (if it's about democracy, why the fuck are we supporting Saud?..); the rhetoric is all about convincing the populace to go along with it.  (Again: external actions, and internal values, are often two separate matters.)

As for Vietnam, I don't have much analysis on it; I didn't live through it, I don't know exactly what all was going on.  It's pretty clear USA didn't "want" to win it, and millitary-industrial folly seems as good as any explanation.  They had to at least keep up appearances versus the Red Scare (because, what's the only thing that's more scary to an authoritarian, than a liberal? another authoritarian of course).  (I will never not make it a point to highlight the fact that, what people think they're afraid of about "communism", is actually authoritarianism.)  Probably the same applies to Afghanistan (if it was actually about terrorism, we would've sanctioned Saudi Arabia, except, oh wait, petrodollars..); certainly the more recent Iraq, motivated of course by the usual middle-east oil squabbles.

And yep, weather conditions, invading Russia in the winter, etc... home advantage, shifting the balance.
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Re: Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People
« Reply #249 on: July 17, 2022, 12:35:45 am »
Talking about technical superiority of weaponry is at least silly, as Afganistan has demonstrated. The secret sauce is perhaps elswhere but not in that.

While we were there, the Taliban were effectively suppressed.  Effective enough, anyway, to set up some familiar manner of government.  (I don't know the numbers offhand, as far as estimated Taliban count/recruitment rate vs. troops on the ground, and casualty rates for both.  If those sorts of things were even made public yet...)  The people didn't see any value in it, though, and it collapsed as soon as we left.

It would've been an interesting project (in terms of statebuilding, social engineering, say -- completely setting aside whatever human cost would've been incurred, let alone the economic burden of being there so long) to set up schools and culturally-relevant modes of propaganda, to try and educate them into such a system -- this would seem the only way to bring literally stone-age peoples into modern administrative structures relatively quickly, and even then it must take over a decade to attempt such a feat.  (See also: China bringing their rural/subsistence population up to speed -- through notoriously brutal means.  Effective?  Time will tell, I guess.  That's not something the US public would stomach -- as many brutal things as the USA does get away with, they couldn't possibly keep a project that vast under wraps for long enough to accomplish anything.)   And then what, I don't know, maybe they could be a minor manufacturing center or something, cheap labor, some mineral resources?

But that seems like sad little economic value to justify such an immense investment.  So it was abandoned, as was inevitable, and the Taliban rolled right back in, as if -- well, basically nothing did change.

Tim
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