[defaced thread] Affordable DMM Checkers: AC Reference...

[pcprogrammer]

What he missed is:

Keeping him self warm with the space heaters the old vacuum tube based analog scopes are. 

How dare you! 

Sorry, did not mean to upset you 

So do people this side of the pond "People are people, the whole world over".

Yep and each and everyone of them differs. Makes it interesting on the one hand, and cumbersome on the other.

[tggzzz]

So do people this side of the pond "People are people, the whole world over".

Yep and each and everyone of them differs. Makes it interesting on the one hand, and cumbersome on the other.

I hate the mantra, especially common amongst HR droids, that you must treat everyone equally.

I occasionally point out to people that they are not and never will be my equal. The switched on quickly respond with "no, I'm better", to which I grin and say "yup, in some ways, and that's just fine". For the more timid, I go on to add "and you can and should say exactly the same".

Treat people as individuals, and give that person what they need/deserve.

[abeyer]

but we have seen far worse insults being made, and on the internet you have to deal with it unfortunately.

I find it somewhat unfortunate that we are resigned to that. While it may be true "on the internet" at large, there is certainly the ability to curate a community on a smaller scale, if you choose to do so.

[schmitt trigger]

Although this forum has an overall laissez-faire attitude, it is far more restrained than other forums which I lurk at.
My personal belief is that real life already has its fair share of stress and complexity, to add a gratuitous quarrel with random strangers.

[pcprogrammer]

but we have seen far worse insults being made, and on the internet you have to deal with it unfortunately.

I find it somewhat unfortunate that we are resigned to that. While it may be true "on the internet" at large, there is certainly the ability to curate a community on a smaller scale, if you choose to do so.

And that is most likely why the OP got banned. The moderator chose to keep the community from being abused. Most members here are not out for quarrels, but sometimes you run into them due to others that come here to provoke, troll, or be just plain ignorant.

[tggzzz]

Although this forum has an overall laissez-faire attitude, it is far more restrained than other forums which I lurk at.
My personal belief is that real life already has its fair share of stress and complexity, to add a gratuitous quarrel with random strangers.

It is, to a large extent "self policing". The mods have stated that they largely rely on members to bring things to their attention.

It is also, as you mention, somewhat laissez-faire - but with a few hard boundaries.

Getting that balance right is tricky, and the mods+members have largely succeeded.

[Zero999]

"Autism is not an excuse to bully people."  Louis Rossman

Except autistic people are normally bullied, rather than bullies. I know that's a generalisation and there will be exceptions.

I don't consider tggzzz to be rude, perhaps a little blunt in pointing out his claims are unrealistic, but not overtly rude. The original poster then lost his temper.

[armandine2]

.... and he has left us with a classic subject title . perhaps not for tgg 

[DimitriP]

.... and he has left us with a classic subject title ............. 

Should be easily fixable right before the thread gets locked !!! 

[Gyro]

Only by the OP... or mod (It ain't going to be the OP).

[Zero999]

tggzzz doesn't appear to care, so does it really matter?

I found it to be a rather humorous read. It was a shame I missed the fireworks.

[Smokey]

tggzzz doesn't appear to care, so does it really matter?

I found it to be a rather humorous read. It was a shame I missed the fireworks.

Considering the OP decided to nuke his initial craziness, the actual remaining content here makes no sense at this point. There is essentially no value in this thread existing anymore.  The only reasonable response if someone stumbles upon this is "WFT happened here??"

[Kim Christensen]

tggzzz doesn't appear to care, so does it really matter?

I found it to be a rather humorous read. It was a shame I missed the fireworks.

Considering the OP decided to nuke his initial craziness, the actual remaining content here makes no sense at this point. There is essentially no value in this thread existing anymore.  The only reasonable response if someone stumbles upon this is "WFT happened here??"

Some of it still exists on the interwebs:

https://web.archive.org/web/20240423142004/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs-affordable-dmm-checkers-ac-reference-dc-reference-ohms-reference-etc/

[PlainName]

That archived thread doesn't capture the other threads, where he was hounded by the usual suspects. What showed up here was just the culmination of that, the straw that broke things.

[tggzzz]

tggzzz doesn't appear to care, so does it really matter?

I found it to be a rather humorous read. It was a shame I missed the fireworks.

Whether or not I mind is of secondary importance. I do think the new title cheapens this forum. The original title avoids that, and to that limited extent I think it might be appropriate to revert it.

Deleting their posts is typical of such people. Missing the fireworks isn't particularly important, of course, but revising history is objectionable.

[Kim Christensen]

That archived thread doesn't capture the other threads, where he was hounded by the usual suspects. What showed up here was just the culmination of that, the straw that broke things.

True. But for that, anyone can go to the profile of Majorassburn, click "show posts", and make up their own mind.

[pcprogrammer]

tggzzz doesn't appear to care, so does it really matter?

I found it to be a rather humorous read. It was a shame I missed the fireworks.

Considering the OP decided to nuke his initial craziness, the actual remaining content here makes no sense at this point. There is essentially no value in this thread existing anymore.  The only reasonable response if someone stumbles upon this is "WFT happened here??"

Some of it still exists on the interwebs:

https://web.archive.org/web/20240423142004/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs-affordable-dmm-checkers-ac-reference-dc-reference-ohms-reference-etc/

Reading Majorassburn's reply there, I can't understand how he does not see the error in his own reasoning.

Now, as you and a few of your fellow super critics must well know by now after reading my various threads and comments in this fantastically helpful eevblog forum, I am offering my devices to the sub-200-dollar DMM buyer (predominantly handhelds) and not to legitimately engaged, professionally employed, high-end DMM owners and users unless they want one out of curiosity, etc..

Please note that I said "legitimately engaged" as opposed to "couch-dwelling, socially-maladjusted, hyper-critical forum irritators and thread-disruptors" who claim that they may HAPPEN to own some high-end equipment and, therefore, are somehow entitled to shower their scorn and derision upon all who may have been so foolish to have bought a DMM that cost less than $1,000.00 to check their electrical outlets, etc. around the house.

When you are targeting the more low end handheld digital multi meters, why would you over inflate your specifications. 
These type of meters don't have that high precision, and most hobbyists will likely not care about it either. I don't, because for the things I do it is more about having something working and not about true precision. And for that I manage just fine with the not calibrated equipment I have.

Now, to your asinine questions/criticisms:
If you knew anything at all about selling these types of devices on eBay to somewhat unsophisticated buyers (which you obviously have no feel for), you would understand that choking an ad with globs of technical specifications would quickly cause buyers to skip to the next seller's ad.  Achieving a balance of general, parametrically illustrative specifications along with typical and comprehensible application information is about the best a seller can do in the very limited space-time available to encourage a transaction.

Therefore, in my ads, I try to present a few technical specs as a reference base to validate the usability and quality of the device and also, present enough application information to help the potential buyer to recognize the intrinsic usefulness of the device and to stimulate the desire to buy one. Of course, this has worked for me and the buyers of my devices. If you doubt my claim, you are invited to check my feedback as SQWARREL at eBay.

So to not complicate the add he just mentions a few unreal specifications to make sure the buyers don't skip his and and buy from him, where as if he was truthful he might be selling more. But maybe my vision on buyers of this kind of stuff is wrong. Maybe he is praying on the gullible, as so many seem to do.

[armandine2]

...I suspect praying for more gullible people is not so unusual.

[Brumby]

Reading Majorassburn's reply there, I can't understand how he does not see the error in his own reasoning.

"there are none so blind as those who will not see"

[tggzzz]

Reading Majorassburn's reply there, I can't understand how he does not see the error in his own reasoning.

"there are none so blind as those who will not see"

Agreed.

Looking at the sqwarrel ebay items currently on sale, he does appear to have modified his claims to omit some of the more unrealistic claims/specifications noted earlier in this thread.

That's good, and indicates he has seen the light. If he had done that earlier then this thread wouldn't have happened (see my reply #9, if you haven't got anything better to do with your life!.

[dietert1]

That 3.5 digit meter remark was pretty nasty after he had explained that he was using 6.5 meters with fresh calibration. So 5.5 digits would have been a realistic estimate. Those "expert" comments and the ban might as well indicate that he was on something valid.
I think there is a good reason for somebody looking for alternatives instead of paying collectors prices for legacy equipment with unknown history. The comments about a non existing market were manipulative at best. There are lots of offers in that realm. Don't know whether the chinese already have their own josephson junction arrays.

Regards, Dieter

[tggzzz]

That 3.5 digit meter remark was pretty nasty

That is a misrepresentation.

The actual remark includes an important caveat, highlighted for convenience: 'If you limited the claimed to, for example, "...verify the function of 3.5 digit Digital Multimeters", then the points wouldn't even arise.' https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs-affordable-dmm-checkers-ac-reference-dc-reference-ohms-reference-etc/msg5465140/#msg5465140

That gave him the perfect opportunity to point out that his device was better than 3.5digit. He chose not to. Why?

after he had explained that he was using 6.5 meters with fresh calibration. So 5.5 digits would have been a realistic estimate.

I cannot see any 6.5 digit statement of the OP's. Where is it? When was it made?

Note also that after the sale the OP sends documentation that the claims are based on operating in an unrealistic single exact environment "...no-draft ambient of 78F and 60% humidity." https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs-affordable-dmm-checkers-ac-reference-dc-reference-ohms-reference-etc/msg5465119/#msg5465119 Ensuring operation in such a precise environment would be very expensive and difficult; it would be cheaper to buy a more expensive well-specified and characterised voltage source.

I think there is a good reason for somebody looking for alternatives instead of paying collectors prices for legacy equipment with unknown history.

I agree - as my statement above demonstrates.

But that was not claimed in the adverts, so I don't think you have a point.

[alm]

That 3.5 digit meter remark was pretty nasty after he had explained that he was using 6.5 meters with fresh calibration. So 5.5 digits would have been a realistic estimate. Those "expert" comments and the ban might as well indicate that he was on something valid.

No, they were saying they used a 5.5 digit meter that they compared to a 6.5 digit meter. And just because you measured a reference down to say 100 uV/V uncertainty doesn't mean you can claim it will be stable down to that level months later and at a 10°C higher ambient temperature without doing extra work. I explained how to establish proper specs, but they weren't interested. They kept giving unrealistic specifications. But now I as "expert" am the bad person? Why do you feel the need to point fingers like this?

[dietert1]

That 3.5 digit meter remark was pretty nasty after he had explained that he was using 6.5 meters with fresh calibration. So 5.5 digits would have been a realistic estimate. Those "expert" comments and the ban might as well indicate that he was on something valid.

No, they were saying they used a 5.5 digit meter that they compared to a 6.5 digit meter. And just because you measured a reference down to say 100 uV/V uncertainty doesn't mean you can claim it will be stable down to that level months later and at a 10°C higher ambient temperature without doing extra work. I explained how to establish proper specs, but they weren't interested. They kept giving unrealistic specifications. But now I as "expert" am the bad person? Why do you feel the need to point fingers like this?

Being a bit more positive i assume that he calibrated his references with the 6.5 meter. I mean everybody would use the best available meter. Can't you calm down and leave it to a potential buyer to define requirements and compare specs?
As a side note: I got a little voltage reference board from AD without any other specs than the ADR1399 datasheet. They described it as "pocket reference, 7.05 V". It arrived with a USB supply involving a switching converter and no bootstrap stage. After some modding it can still be used for metrology experiments. Other buyers might prefer a less stable unit that has been characterized to a better degree.
Just looking at one of our HP3456A: After turn on it displays 5.5 digits as this is its accuracy. But it can be used for studies at 7.5 digits. The mods are described somewhere in this forum. The accuracy spec of a HP3458A is 5.5 digits as well, unless it gets calibrated more than once a year. So let's not invent requirements. Once you have a calibrated reference, a 5.5 meter can transfer calibration to another reference measuring the voltage difference.

Regards, Dieter

[tggzzz]

That 3.5 digit meter remark was pretty nasty after he had explained that he was using 6.5 meters with fresh calibration. So 5.5 digits would have been a realistic estimate. Those "expert" comments and the ban might as well indicate that he was on something valid.

No, they were saying they used a 5.5 digit meter that they compared to a 6.5 digit meter. And just because you measured a reference down to say 100 uV/V uncertainty doesn't mean you can claim it will be stable down to that level months later and at a 10°C higher ambient temperature without doing extra work. I explained how to establish proper specs, but they weren't interested. They kept giving unrealistic specifications. But now I as "expert" am the bad person? Why do you feel the need to point fingers like this?

Being a bit more positive i assume that he calibrated his references with the 6.5 meter. I mean everybody would use the best available meter. Can't you calm down and leave it to a potential buyer to define requirements and compare specs?

No, you can't - and shouldn't.

Most buyers don't have the expertise nor the interest in learning.
Most buyers won't be able to spot what isn't being stated.
It also assumes the vendor is competent to create what they are selling.

That applies to any and every product and service.

IMNSHO we should help the vendor make claims that should lead to satisfied customers, and we should warn customers of products and services that will waste their time/money - or worse. Unfortunately we can't fulfill that in most cases, but it is almost our duty to do that where we can.